The first Rover to come to SFR

[StinkBug]

A couple months ago I got a call from Carey Steiner asking if I could do some work on her D90. I've always loved her Defender and jumped at the chance to work on it. She was looking to rework the front suspension a bit, and change to coilovers all the way around. We got Ryan Kennelly from Pro-Comp Suspension in on the project and together we came up with a plan for a 4-link and panhard setup. With the way the steering works on this car there were a few extra challenges in packaging everything, but I think we're getting it worked out.

This car has a lot of firsts for me in it. It's the first Land Rover I've worked on, it's the first project I've done with any significant amount of TIG welding, and it's also the first build using my new Torchmate CNC plasma table. A lot of it has been a learning experience for me, and I'm pretty excited about the new tools and capabilities that come with them.

So on to what you all really want, PICS!
I'm sure many of you will recognize this rig. Carey wheels this thing everywhere, and it has been featured in a number of magazines.

The first thing we had to do was cut everything off of the axle and frame, including the old body mount, lower link mount, and tie ins for the sliders and cage.

Next I sat down with the computer and the measurements we had taken and started drawing up the new link brackets. Here is what I came up with.

Because of space constraints the shocks had to be moved out over the kingpin. I ended up going through a few different designs for these mounts before settling on one.

[StinkBug]

After getting the link and shock mounts tacked into place we had to build a few other things. Track bar mount, Hydro assist ram mount, bumpstop pads, etc. The tie rod used to hit the oil pan at full bump so we raised the bumpstop pads slightly to prevent that as well.

Now that the axle had it's brackets it was time to work on the chassis. I decided to try to blend the body mount, slider attachment point, cage tie in, and upper link mount all into one structure. It's a lot of stuff to attach together, so it was built in a couple pieces to get everything to connect smoothly.

Next I cut out and welded up these mounts for the lower links to attach to.

And here's how it all connects.

[StinkBug]

Once everything was tacked in place we cycled the suspension to make sure everything cleared. It's definitely a tight fit under this car.

Once that was done I broke the tack welds loose and sat down to weld everything together.

[StinkBug]

:grinpimp:

[StinkBug]

I sure am glad I didn't have to cut all those brackets by hand :flipoff2:

[mightymg1]

Sweet!

[darkstar]

Those upper link mounts/shock mounts are exactly what I'm planning for my front axle. How'd you get in my head?









OK, maybe not exactly but pretty close :flipoff2:

[StinkBug]

Well since I already have them on CAD, if you have a Sunray axle I could have the Torchmate spit out a set for ya :flipoff2:

[landybehr]

Hi,

I´m nowhere an engineer or anything. So if you think my following comment is worthless, just ignore it :)

I think the mounting bracket for the bulkhead on the chassis (in this case where the upper link is attached to) is the weak point. If you look at the Rover chassis then all brackets that have to carry more weight than an exhaust do not stop with the bracket at 1/2 of the chassis rails side but are extended to the bottom - in order to stop the chassis´ side flexing.

in this scheme "I" is the chassis rail and "O" is your bracket

IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
I
I
I

Rover would have done it like:
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOO
IOOO
IOOO

[darkstar]

seriously though that is some nice looking work. I'll spend a week making my brackets and there will be nowhere near as many and they certainly won't come out looking near as good.

I do have a question though---have you checked for interference between your tires and your links? I'm making a 4 link with parallel uppers on a rover front axle and the tires hitting the links is a serious concern. on a stock rover config the tires rubbing the radius arms is very common. Maybe its not a concern for you since that's not a rover axle...

[Jtisdale]

Alex- I've not had any interference on my 90 when it had the 37s Krawlers (wide) nor the PPR car with 39s, both of which had the upper arms located to the stock outrigger and parallel to each other. I have a much better turning radius now but also run wheel spacers. Backspacing is normal, ~4.5".

[Jtisdale]

After getting the link and shock mounts tacked into place we had to build a few other things. Track bar mount, Hydro assist ram mount, bumpstop pads, etc. The tie rod used to hit the oil pan at full bump so we raised the bumpstop pads slightly to prevent that as well.

Now that the axle had it's brackets it was time to work on the chassis. I decided to try to blend the body mount, slider attachment point, cage tie in, and upper link mount all into one structure. It's a lot of stuff to attach together, so it was built in a couple pieces to get everything to connect smoothly.

Next I cut out and welded up these mounts for the lower links to attach to.

And here's how it all connects.

That is some nice looking work, wonder why the steering was left behind the axle in the first place. Sunray did some work on my front 9/60 but I use the more traditional hi steer setup with the tie rod in front.

Keep the pics and details coming, looks nice!

TuffD90...what's up with the Jeep flares?

[darkstar]

Alex- I've not had any interference on my 90 when it had the 37s Krawlers (wide) nor the PPR car with 39s, both of which had the upper arms located to the stock outrigger and parallel to each other. I have a much better turning radius now but also run wheel spacers. Backspacing is normal, ~4.5".

I don't want to hijack this thread but I have to reply anyway :laughing:. I had a bit of rubbing on the radius arms with the 39.5" iroks with 2" wheel spacers. Since I'm going to be running my upper links in more or less the same location, and running a bit more steering stroke (8.5" ram instead of the 8" I had before), I would expect that problem to worsen. Solution: 3" wheel spacers in the front (which is what I believe Matt put on yours). The other solution would be to put a little bend in the uppers, but I don't really want to go there. Besides, I would have to go to larger and heavier wall tubing to do that, which I don't want to do. My uppers will be 1.75x.120 like in the rear suspension.

OK Hijack off, sorry :flipoff2:

[StinkBug]

The tire rub question is a good one. The tires rubbed on the old radius arms with the old setup, in fact the last person that worked on the car had shaved down the head of the bolts holding the upper "links" of the arms for more clearance. That kinda scared me. It's possible that the tires will still rub a little, but they should at least be better. The bracket on the link that rubbed before was about 3" wide, compared to the 1.75" upper link now. Also the old radius arms were mounted outside the frame rail before. The uppers are still outside the frame, but the lowers are angled in and under, so that should buy at least a little more space. Like I said, it may rub, but at least it'll rub at a tighter turn than before.

As for your spacers, they may not really solve your problem. As you push the wheels farther and farther out from the king pin axis it causes the tire to swing instead of just turning. Often this will cause issues with the tire coming back into a firewall or forward into the bumper. The real solution is to build a new wider axle, and run without the spacers. Your overall width will be the same, but the path the tires follow when steering is much tighter. Obviously spacers are a hell of a lot less money than a custom axle though.

As for why the steering was left behind the axle. Well changing it would have required making or buying new steering arms, as well as building a new tie rod, changing the track bar setup, ram setup, and possibly the drag link as well. We were trying to keep things simple and as inexpensive as possible, and since we were able to get the link geometry we wanted without moving the steering we felt that it was fine to just work around it.

[maxyedor]

Nice looking jigsaw puzzle you're building there, needs some dimple dies though:grinpimp:

I need a Torchmate too:(

[RedBullJeep]

I need a Torchmate too:(

Now that we know what you can do with one, we know that EVERY shop should have one.

[cumminsrover]

Ditto, you should triangulate the bulkhead outriggers to the bottom of the frame rail and wrap it around the top. After all, that is only 0.100" thick material the chassis is made of. That is why the original outrigger wraps around the corner and across the top of the chassis - so it gains stability from being able to load 3 sides of the chassis tube at one time and not relying on one thin sheet to do all the work.

You don't want to bust it off in a roll over, in general use, or when there is a good hit to the rock slider.

Perhaps welding the outrigger to a larger plate first and then the chassis would have been a good idea. Replacement outriggers usually come that way.

Otherwise, the brackets look nice and you have some pretty creative ideas :beer:

Hi,

I´m nowhere an engineer or anything. So if you think my following comment is worthless, just ignore it :)

I think the mounting bracket for the bulkhead on the chassis (in this case where the upper link is attached to) is the weak point. If you look at the Rover chassis then all brackets that have to carry more weight than an exhaust do not stop with the bracket at 1/2 of the chassis rails side but are extended to the bottom - in order to stop the chassis´ side flexing.

in this scheme "I" is the chassis rail and "O" is your bracket

IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
I
I
I

Rover would have done it like:
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOOOOOO
IOOOO
IOOO
IOOO

[Serious One]

1. Sweet work.

2. Buy a yellow star.

3. :flipoff2:

[StinkBug]

1. Sweet work.

2. Buy a yellow star.

3. :flipoff2:

Says the guy without even a red star :flipoff2:

[Serious One]

Says the guy without even a red star :flipoff2:

I'm not pimpin' my shiat. :D

[isabellaclarke]

Any plans on building her a nicer tie rod? That one just looks ghetto to me compared to the stuff you are making. Looks good though.
Any reason why you used poly at the frame mount vs a flex joint? just curious?

[StinkBug]

The tie rod isn't the prettiest, but it is functional so it will stay. This was supposed to be somewhat of a budget fix, so unless it really needed to change it stays.

As for the bushings its for a couple reasons. First, it helps dampen out road vibration a little. Second, because of the 4 link there will be some amount of bind in articulation. The poly allows a bit of give so that the car will still flex. If everything was solid it would flex about the same as it did with the radius arms we just took off......not much. The way it's set up now it should be nice and slinky when you're crawling, but when you apply power it'll wanna flatten out the chassis.

[rotozuk]

1. Sweet work.

2. Buy a yellow star.

3. :flipoff2:

Take your yellow star comment and put it somewhere it belongs. Was he trying to sell you something? Looks to me like he is showing of a new project using new methods.

Work looks good. Can't wait to see it finished off. Looking forward to seeing how well this 4 link works compared to my 3 link.

What is really neat on this build, and the real tech (to me) is that you were able to measure everything on the vehicle, then work up the design for the brackets on your computer and cut them out on the Torchmate. That still amazes me. Sure beats the heck out of cardboard templates, saws and grinders for the better part of a weeks work. I'm damn impressed! (Those of us that have hand made your own brackets can really appreciate this.)

The other interesting thing to see is just how much metal was used for all of the tabs. I bought small chunks of cold rolled material, usually a bit more then the planned task for that weekend. I never thought that it added up to the better part of a 4'x4' sheet. Amazing. (Not to mention how much those small sheets cost!)

-Wayne

[pendy]

Serious is a part of the community over here in LR. So he can spout off the sarcasm if he wants to. Those that know, know better.

Take your butthurt to the hardware store that milked you for metal:flipoff2:



Take your yellow star comment and put it somewhere it belongs. Was he trying to sell you something? Looks to me like he is showing of a new project using new methods.

Work looks good. Can't wait to see it finished off. Looking forward to seeing how well this 4 link works compared to my 3 link.

[RedBullJeep]

Michael is a friend of us all...and one of the best photographers that I've ever met (yes, I'm pimping his skillz, but I can do dat).

Dallas will have a Yellow Star as I suspect we'll be doing some projects that will actually be pimpin his biz in a roundabout sorta way. This project is more about Carey Steiner's rig than his shop...later on, when we start the KOH build however...that'll be a lil different game.

And Wayne didn't get milked for metal...maybe for the steel pins holding his hand together...but that's another story...

There, issues resolved. :dustin:

[Serious One]

I love you Dustin. ;)

http://www.tawayama.com/05portfolio/locationwebportfolio/images/redbull.jpg

[Buckon37s]

Beautiful work Dallas! You got good on your plasma cutter in a hurry!

I don't know if you are aware, but the LR pirate board is the nit-picking capital of the world. That said, the advice on the frame mount is good. I doubt you would have any issue at all, as the mount is tied into the slider and body. But, the frame is extremely thin and can fatigue crack and just straight rip. I have seen it open up like a tuna can, like we discussed.

Great job.

[StinkBug]

I love you Dustin. ;)

http://www.tawayama.com/05portfolio/locationwebportfolio/images/redbull.jpg

That is such a badass photo. I always have to take a second look when I walk by the big framed one at Dustins house.

As for the frame rails, I'm looking at a couple different options for making sure things stay put. It may be as simple as a couple gussets goin to the bottom of the rail and tying to the lower link bracket, or maybe something different coming off the slider. Not exactly sure yet. The biggest thing is I dont wanna put something there that's gonna get hung up or trashed on rocks. I know Carey isn't exactly easy on this thing.

[pendy]

I'll be sure to bring a 50lb magnet along when its time to shake Waynes hand. Have a little fun with him y'no.

[TuffD90]

I would like to give a special thanks to Dallas Ashley at STINKY FAB RACING for doing a great job of making my D90 work again! I would have posted the pic's but I don't have a clue how to do it.

I have always loved driving my truck, it has treated me well over the years. My only limitations are it's wheel base and I accept that. I would think the Rover forum is the right place to share info about brand specific vehicles. I didn't see Dallas pimping his company. I will do the pimping since I spent the money for the :) star and I will be proud of it along with all the other companies that have helped to keep me on the trails.

I wouldn't be out wheeling if it wasn't for people like:

Dallas - Stinky Fab Racing SFR

Pro Comp tire & Wheel

DJ Safety

Eddie - West Coast Rovers

Lance - PSC

Jim - J.E. Reel

Banks Power


And of course I have to thank David of Buck Wild Racing for letting me drive his truck in KOH 2009


David and I will be at KOH 2009 and we will give it our best! The competition this year is very high caliber, it should be an incredible event thanks to Jeff Knoll and Dave Cole! If it were not for those two sitting around the camp fire one night none of this would even exist!!!

[Serious One]

Carey,

I'd be giving you shiat about the yellow star comment...but I know you can kick my ass, so I won't.

That truck of yours is sweet, and getting sweeter all the time. The fab work is top-notch, and I'm sure you'll put it to good use.

[RedBullJeep]

...but I know you can kick my ass, so I won't.


And I think she drives by your house on her way from SoCal to Montana...good call on giving her some slack! :dustin:

[StinkBug]

Thanks for the kind words Carey. I've definitely enjoyed working with you. I've always been fond of D90s, and yours is definitely one of the coolest ones around. I'm pretty proud of being able to put my name on part of it.

Today I finished building the upper shock mounts, added a bit of gusseting to the body mounts, and started painting everything. Tomorrow I'm hoping to get it sitting on the ground.

[StinkBug]

:)

[TuffD90]

Michael
Your comment was great because it got me motivated to post a message about all the important companies in my life. I read all the post but I am not one to post a message myself. I am glad to see we actually have aggresive Rover owners on the board and on the trails and I will be the first to "pimp" my sponsors because without them I wouldn't be out wheeling the extreme trails that we run.

I knew I spent the money on that damn yellow for some reason!!!!!

[StinkBug]

Ok here's the last batch of pics for the front end.

[Serious One]

You know Carey, my only claim to fame is that I pushed your D90 in it's Station Wagon configuration away from the big sharp rock that threatened to blow out your rear side window at the Twist-Off way back in the day.

Now I wonder if it was a waste of time! Hehe.

Pimp yer shiat.

[Jtisdale]

Carey-

You mentioned wheelbase as your limiting factor with your D90, why the jump to coilovers? Is this going to be your "stock Mod" KOH car when they divide up classes?

The project looks good, are the rear shocks going to go thru the bed?

Talk to Brendon, his rig is still mostly D90 and he wheels trails similar to what you do; he has been thru a lot of coil cominations to get his dialed in.

[colorover]

Carey-

You mentioned wheelbase as your limiting factor with your D90, why the jump to coilovers? Is this going to be your "stock Mod" KOH car when they divide up classes?

The project looks good, are the rear shocks going to go thru the bed?

Talk to Brendon, his rig is still mostly D90 and he wheels trails similar to what you do; he has been thru a lot of coil cominations to get his dialed in.

Hey Carey,

Rig looks lookin sick! Let me know if you are entertraining that idea, I can send you pics. If I had it all to do over again, I might punch them through the tub. The cons are the angle the shock is mounted at, it seems to make the coilovers more sensitive to weight changes in the back of the truck The ass seems to squat a bit more on climbs. Heavier springs, duh. But I haven't had any other configuation on my rig, so these are mearly observations. A sway bar is also a must IMO. The pros are more obvious, stock tub, better axle travel, no tire rubbing the shock, better dampening? For what its worth.

Brendon

[StinkBug]

A lot of the reason for the jump to coilovers up front was packaging. The old coil was huge, and worn out and putting a 6" coil and a separate shock takes up a ton of space. Also being able to easily swap springs, and make adjustments to dial in the spring rates, ride height and valving is a huge plus. On the rear I'm going to try to do as little cutting to the body as possible, as Carey will be driving this thing in the snow and it's important to keep it as air and water tight as possible. If any of you have already done it I'd love to see pics of how you mounted your shocks.

[colorover]

A lot of the reason for the jump to coilovers up front was packaging. The old coil was huge, and worn out and putting a 6" coil and a separate shock takes up a ton of space. Also being able to easily swap springs, and make adjustments to dial in the spring rates, ride height and valving is a huge plus. On the rear I'm going to try to do as little cutting to the body as possible, as Carey will be driving this thing in the snow and it's important to keep it as air and water tight as possible. If any of you have already done it I'd love to see pics of how you mounted your shocks.

Here are some pics from back in the day when we first did the coilovers. It has changed some since then but the basic principle is the same. Still glad I did it, thats a no brainer.
409900

409901

409902

Brendon

[Psimpson7]

Sorry for the Hijack,

Brendon, that looks good. Just out of interest, why did you go with the coilovers at an angle and not vertical?

I am looking at doing something similar on my 90 at the moment.

What spec / length shocks and springs did you use?

Thanks.
Pete

[Slunnie]

Dallas, love the fabwork. Looking at the Panhard heim at the axle end, do you not get failures through the thread when setup like that or is it strong enough through sheer size?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=409454&stc=1&d=1229496839

[Buckon37s]

Dallas, love the fabwork. Looking at the Panhard heim at the axle end, do you not get failures through the thread when setup like that or is it strong enough through sheer size?

Even 3/4 hiems don't fail in that configuration. At least they havn't on mine for years.

[Jtisdale]

Even 3/4 hiems don't fail in that configuration. At least they havn't on mine for years.

Likewise but I've always seen them or run them in a more linear fashion where there is just push/pull. This seems like it would leverage the shank a bit, but I'm no engineer.

[RedBullJeep]

There's a tradeoff...handling / bump-steer vs durability. Theough the rod ends are not as strong at that angle, the question is, are they strong enough for that application...?
Due to the rid end size and quality, they should be more than up to this task however, the beauty of rod end shanks is that they usually bend a bit before they let go. Carey preps her rig regularly so she'll catch it if it ever becomes an issue.

[StinkBug]

Also note that I did not build that trackbar. Carey built that with another fabricator a couple years ago, and it's been holding up fine. Since it already matched the steering geometry very well I simply made a new axle end mount and left the rest alone.

I'm certainly not trying to pass the buck or say "dont blame me" as I feel that it's plenty strong enough. It was something that wasn't broke, so I didn't fix it :)

[Slunnie]

No thats cool, thanks for that fella's.

I just asked as I'd seen them fail with a bending moment put through them as the thread stress raises, but to qualify that it was through an end that wasn't nearly the size of these ones. As you say though, if the heim has been taking that type of beating for that long, then who is to argue.

[Jtisdale]

any updates?

[StinkBug]

I was gonna wait another day or two to update, but since you asked....

After I got the front end done the truck left so that I could do the axles on Buckon37s defender. It got towed up to West Coast Rovers because it wouldn't start. Turns out the ignition module had died at some point in the process. We're unsure if it had to do with all the welding going on (yes the battery was disconnected) but regardless Eddie and the crew there got it running happily again in no time. Now it's back in my shop again getting the rear coilover mounts put on. It's gonna be much less involved than the front as the current shock mounts are actually in the right place and simply need to be beefed up. I'll get some fresh pics up soon.

[RedBullJeep]

Didja disconnect the battery AND ignition module this time??? :dustin:

[Jtisdale]

one from the good ole days...

[StinkBug]

Didja disconnect the battery AND ignition module this time??? :dustin:

Haven't started doin any welding, but yes they will both be disconnected. Problem with last time was that I had to weld right next to it, as I had to make a bracket to attach it to the car.

[StinkBug]

A couple pics from today. The existing shock mounts are in the right location, just not beefy enough because of the single shear design (dont start) I decided the easiest way to beef things up was to add a second tube, plate between the 2 tubes, and add a second plate to catch the outside of the shock.

[StinkBug]

Carey brought the new shocks over today and after cycling everything around I finish welded all the brackets and shot it with some paint. Should be ready for the trail tomorrow afternoon :)

[def9090]

amazing fab work:smokin::smokin:

bit of a sidetrack but any pics of the cage design and mounting points?

cheers

sam

[StinkBug]

I'll be pulling the truck out of the shop and getting some overall pics tomorrow, I'll try to get some pics of the cage while I'm in there.

Got the shocks installed today and took it for a little drive around the neighborhood. The coilovers will need to be dialed in when Carey takes it out, but so far it seems to work well. Unfortunately I forgot to bring my camera in with me today so no new pics, but I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

[def9090]

cheers dallas,

mate once again your fab skills are smokin:smokin:

[def9090]

hey dallas i know you were utilizing the existing, but with the work done is there any reason why you guys didn't lengthen the upper rear coilover mounts? possibly achieve more travel? or is careys rig at the 'happy medium'?

[StinkBug]

The reason was pretty simple. The car was pretty much at it's max travel without changing a lot of other things. On the compression side the tires tucked into the body pretty tight (you can see in that one flex test shot) and on the other side when the shock fully extends the driveline u-joint is out of travel and the sway bar endlinks are pulled almost straight inline with the arms. Any more down travel and either the sway bar would become a limit strap, or she'd start having driveshaft trouble. It's still gonna have a very respectable amount of travel for a full bodied rig. Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate it.

[deslandes]

Any News about "4Carey" ninety?
It features in a LRO magazine some years ago... It was a dream for me...

Any other picts in his real element?:smokin:

[Buckon37s]

Any News about "4Carey" ninety?
It features in a LRO magazine some years ago... It was a dream for me...

Any other picts in his real element?:smokin:

She doesn't post much. She is in the middle of a move to Montana I believe. The rear suspension is still not working properly last time we talked. The shaft runs out of travel early and she is having a hard time stopping that with the offset diff.