I geuss this has been building with me for a while. Each time I go out and run a trail seems like there are new changes, changes that are not always good. For instance this weekend I went to Montrose. While on Die Tring I noticed a lot of rock stacking had been done. I'm not bashing stacking rocks but at least remove them when done so the challange is there for the next guy. Two obstacles really stood out though. One is an option which used to take a very capable rig to get up, now two large slabs have been placed where needed so a lesser rig could now traverse. The second is near the end. In the past you had to squeeze between a large rock and a tree stump to avoid a diff hanger. Someone has winched the large rock away and now it is not even a challenge. These trails were built to be tough so let's keep them this way. Just letting off some steam.

AHEM BROTHER!

LONG DRIVE frome ky?

I actually moved out here a little over a year ago to work at a local shop but am getting ready to move back.

i agree, i was at a trail a few weeks ago, and where this spot where theres a large rock and you can't go around cause of the trees, well untill some whipped out the chain saw............ now it avoids the rock all-together, and now all the trees are on the rock, well till i moved them agan..........

just my .02 to suport yours.......:flipoff2:

rockstackers are gay. a few weeks ago i was out with a bunch of land rover guys and they were having trouble getting over an obstacle so they started to stack rocks. and these guys are professional rock stackers so i should say that they were building a road. no problem, so i mention that we have to move all the rocks back when we're done so as to leave the trail how we found it. can you guess what i got in return for that? LAUGHS. nothing but laughs. that really pissed me off.

i hate rock stackers!

I would like to chime in on this one. The entrance to Wrecking used to be pretty interesting, not incredibly difficult, but don't miss the line by very much sort of thing. Just after climbing through the that notch, you used to be faced with a trio or so of nasty diff hangers scattered through the middle of basketball sized boulders.

Last time out someone has used all of the boulders to pave the entrance and the only thing left up above is some very sad looking diff hangers. Not cool at all.

Build the rig, not the trail.

Originally posted by tubehead
I actually moved out here a little over a year ago to work at a local shop but am getting ready to move back. when are you leaving?i will be in montrose in mid.sept.if you wanna hit the trials then?

Dude I would have give those rover guys holy hell...

I am still building my trail rig, so I wheel my daily driver.

Its IFS and only has 33's, so I sometimes have to stack to get further down the trail. I am not proud of it, and it makes me sad... lol.

BUT.... BUT....
If I spend 30 minutes paving a highway up some unpassable obstacle, you can be damn sure I will spend 45 minutes getting it back exactly the way I came upon it.

If you not willing to do the work to get it back the way you came upon it, then you should turn around and wheel else where.

You got a good point I think the problem is a lot of the people doing this don't realize they are doing anything wrong. Maybe its time to start making the trail harder and winch some big ass boulders in so they stop coming around. But seriously it all comes down to communicating with the local clubs is the area especially the owns with suv's and moderately built rigs so they can teach these principals. And for the weekend wheelers not in a club they got to be dealt with on a case by case basis.

Someone did the same thing on Lower 2 at Tellico about a month ago. They winched out a huge rock that was the last obstacle and was what made Lower 2 what it was, a class 5 trail or more when it was wet. I was there the first weekend after it happened and you could just about drive your Grannys Buick up it.
Luckily, Tellico being that it changes so much, it fixed itself and now it is a tough spot again, but whoever did it didn't care, all they wanted was to take their open diff, 31" tire POS (guessing here), up Lower2 just so they could say they did it.
Done ranting. :)

This is such a hard thing to deal with on the trail. People toss an absolute hissy fit when you tell them they should not run the trail. There is no dought that with enough work they can make any trail but the results are like the yellow brick road to OZ. If you tell someone at the beginning of the trail they shoudl not try it, they get mad. If they get up the trail and start having problems then your considered a jerk if you don't help them.

I remember the first time I did wrecking ball. It was nasty and lot of fun. Later I saw camo take an optional line. He was denied and winched up. Last time out this same line was completly paved and easy to just walk up without even slipping a tire.

Everone wants to say them have done this out that trail but if your stacking a lot of rocks to do it, then your not doing the trail at all and missing the point. Sure we all need a slight help now and then like that rock right under your drive shaft.

One thing I have noticed is that if you winch to get over a hard section it does not seem to change the trail like rock stacking does.

Here is the comment I got from the leader of a group of jeeps that were coming up and out of Big Sluice, as we were about to enter from the top.

"We rolled one jeep at the top so we winched out a bunch of rocks. It should be like a highway for you guys now"

I felt like kicking him in the nuts and telling him he was a stupid bastard for doing that but I said nothing and went on my way.
Sometimes trail maintenance is necessary, as in the extreme water erosion problems in the Rubicon but making the trail easier ruins the challenge.
Unless you are a county road worker, leave the trails alone.

I personally try not to stack rocks.I don't like it and it ruins the trail.Just a couple of weeks ago we went up with our club.We ran Battlement Mesa trail which used to be an rated an 8.There is only one major obstacle when dry.Well myself,wife,kids and friend,wife and kids pulled into this obstacle known as the rock garden.It was wet caused it rained all night.We played there all day and finally winched.The rest of the club bypassed this and went up the trail.When they came back down a couple tried it.One coming down(easy coming down) he got stuck so they stacked rocks.Then another guy tried coming up.He had a guy spot for him while he was going down to get his Jeep the guy spotting started stacking rocks.I mean he hadn't even got his rig to it yet and the guy had a highway built!!After the guy got up and got stuck then finally got through we told them to move the rocks back.They all just laughed and left.The guy stacking the rocks owns a 4x4 shop and competes.Then at the next meeting they all talked about how easy he climbed it.Just pisses me off.
Anyway sorry about the rant.Blazin

FAWK! I haven't encountered this personally but I am in the slow proccess of building my rig (I have to use it for short jaunts to work everyday so it's a slow proccess) and these stories just piss me of to no end. I have heard about the fire hole being filled with concrete, and others using jackhammers to knock jown ledges and now all this.......shit I want to have trails to go to as my rig proggresses but shit at this rate I've got nothing to look forward to but a stack of rocks in the backyard.......stop these people while we still can!

Originally posted by Chris Geiger


One thing I have noticed is that if you winch to get over a hard section it does not seem to change the trail like rock stacking does.

Shame on you Chris, how dare you suggest that anyone take a cable on a trail. ;)

Two Novembers ago, we ran WB. There was an older guy in a very nice fairly well built CJ.

He would not take a spot, would not stack a single rock, and bragged about how WB had spit him out the previous year just past the entrance.

This time he made it about 10 feet further into the first boulder field that used to be there. Took the line to the left and got seriously hung up on the belly-skid because he did want to put a tire on the left wall. Decided to try and horsepower out of it and managed to break both front axles.

Guess what? He sure wanted a bunch of spotting, rock stacking, two winches, and a bunch of help from the group to get his sorry-no stacking-no winching butt down out of the entrance.

One little rock to get him off of his skid would have sure made his and our day.

yah there is a nice little hill near my house that i test my jeep on. then some guy in an open diff bronco with 33's cuts like 5 trees down and makes a log hyway up the thing! DAMN i was right behind him so i walk up it...i 2wheel (locked rear) so when i get to the top i tun the logs horizontal to the hill and spaced them out to make it hard!

dont use your camp shovel to dig out a hill or ledge so your POS can make it up!

edit: this a a dump site not a real trial just a couple of hills. i would not change a real trail.

Chris G.

Unless you are a county road worker, leave the trails alone.
Amen.

That goes both ways -- don't change the trail. Don't make it easier. Don't make it harder.

Planting YOUR opinion of how the trail should be... that, to me, seems like the utter extreme of arrogance, unless you have worked through proper channels (with the land managers and other users).

We can't have it both ways -- we need to use and maintain the trails in the state in which they ARE. Yeah, I know, we could get lost in the rat-hole of what the trails WERE and whether the existing changes are natural or man-made... but here's the basic concept:

Tread lightly. Minimize impact --- change NOT the trail; change your vehicle or driving style.

Randii

:crybaby2: :crybaby:

Originally posted by Chris Geiger
This is such a hard thing to deal with on the trail. People toss an absolute hissy fit when you tell them they should not run the trail. There is no dought that with enough work they can make any trail but the results are like the yellow brick road to OZ. If you tell someone at the beginning of the trail they shoudl not try it, they get mad. If they get up the trail and start having problems then your considered a jerk if you don't help them.

I remember the first time I did wrecking ball. It was nasty and lot of fun. Later I saw camo take an optional line. He was denied and winched up. Last time out this same line was completly paved and easy to just walk up without even slipping a tire.

Everone wants to say them have done this out that trail but if your stacking a lot of rocks to do it, then your not doing the trail at all and missing the point. Sure we all need a slight help now and then like that rock right under your drive shaft.

One thing I have noticed is that if you winch to get over a hard section it does not seem to change the trail like rock stacking does.

I agree Chris, J.V. has changed a lot.
Moving little rocks is not a "biggie" but winching big ones to further advance is not cool
Stack if you think you are going to break, or get body damage.
If you have the time :smokin:, unstack when you are done. We thank you!