I just got a Milemarker 9000# 2-speed, and a friend of mine told me the linespeed of his didn't improve with installing a bigger pump.

I haven't installed and tried it yet (still wrestling with 0.4'' thick 4'' by 8'' angle iron and same thickness U-profile) but i figure i have a plenty big enough pump, and i'm considering drilling the 2 steel washers between solenoid block and hydro-motor, and also considering drilling out the valve disc in the return port, or even omitting it.

Has anyone already tried this, or are these just stupid little ideas ?

The line speed on those is allways going to be very very slow.

Yeah. I don't know if your tricks will improve the speed or not, but it won't ever be close to an electric. The Hydro winch's virtues lie elsewhere, and you might be better off not fawkin up your winch (or warranty) for little to no gain.

On a hydro winch the line speed is up to the pump GPM not pressure and the other restriction is what is the reduction in the planitary? The motor will only go so fast I would bet so even if you did get a pump with a high GPM it might not do much.

He is right...it is the rate of fluid transfer not the pressure of the transfer.

Also the other dude is right...it will never be as fast as an electric, it will out pull them though:flipoff2:

anyway...just mount the thing and be happy that you have a winch!

Nothing wrong with their slow line speed. They'll outpull and pull longer than ANY electric winch on the market with a similar rating.

If someone could figure out a electric hydro pump runs off of 12V and fully powers the milemarker. I'de probably be all over it and ditch the 9500i.

I'm putting in a faster pump (11 gPM, 1800 psi) onto my 2 milemarkers (1 front, 1 rear). I'm scrapping the electric solenoids that come with the standard MM install, and putting in manual ones with larger port sizes.

There is a theory that says the electric solenoids are the restriction to more GPM flowing through the system.

I should know how this works in practice in a few weeks.

I'm not finished this project yet, but did some testing on Saturday.

I'm using a Cross Manufacturing oil pump, mouted to the gearbox on a dog clutch. It's rated to do 17.5 gpm at full whack (3600 rpm).

I plumbed it direct to the MM (no spool valve), and the return from the MM to an oil tank, and a pipe from the oil tank to the pump. 1/2 pipe all over except for the inlet pipe to the pump from the oil tank which was 3/4. Let her rip.
:eek:

The winch I used was new, and just sitting on the ground with no cable. I measured it be couting revolutions. This was all dont with no load, so I'll check more accuratly when I can do this with a load on them.

Basically: with the pump rotating at 3000 prm (approx - no rev counter on my truck, so just going by ear) the MM was rotating in low gear at the same speed as a Ward 8274 (Yes, the fast one with the motor on top) with both winches running under no load.

With the MM in high gear, and the pump at about 900 rpm (tickover on the engine, 4th gear 1:1 ratio) the winch was spinning nearly too fast to count accuratly, but this time just faster than the 8274. I was afraid to rev up the engine. :flipoff2:

Next Steps: Manufacture an oil resevoir for the truck, fit a manual spool value (have this now, 1/2" model, plan to fit it under the floor beside the gearbox and have the control levers come up through the floor beside the gear levers. I'll have 2 control levers, one for the front MM, one for the rear MM. I'll have a 3rd control lever for engaging / disengaging the dog clutch for the oil pump.

I'll do a performance test / comparison when I'm able to winch under load. I'm betting the MM will be faster under load than the 8274.

Oh yeah, we tested it beside a Superwinch Husky too. Bet it hands down. :flipoff2:

Thanks for the test results, Merv.

Mine isn't operational yet, though the winch bumper is functionally finished. Cosmetically, there still is some work to do. I've just reassembled the pump, as i had to change it from left to right hand rotating.

I did come up with some measurements, though. Like you, i discovered that the motor ports are 1/2" and that the valve, hoses and other connecting hardware are 1/4". I think 1/4" should be big enough, because the real bottleneck is this hexagon backpressure disc thingy, imho. When pulling, this disc moves toward the motor, somewhat opening the slot that MM filed or milled in it. Even then, this still is a major restriction. On lowering, it moves towards the valve, so the oil must go through the hole thats in it. This hole is only 1/16" or 1.6 mm. Considering that flowcapacity rises with the square of the diameter, i preventively drilled this hole to 4 mm. I can always go bigger, but must get this pump finished, and do some testing first.

Originally posted by merv


With the MM in high gear, and the pump at about 900 rpm (tickover on the engine, 4th gear 1:1 ratio) the winch was spinning nearly too fast to count accuratly, but this time just faster than the 8274. I was afraid to rev up the engine. :flipoff2:



One comment about your test. Spool RPM isn't a good comparision when comparing agains an 8274. In one revolution, the 8274 reels in more cable than a milemarker or other small spool winch.

It'sll be interesting to see the results of your test when you load them up and compare actual pulling distance.

It'sll be interesting to see the results of your test when you load them up and compare actual pulling distance.

yeah me too
can you hook the MM up to the 8274 sto see if it will pull the drum off that POS warn
or at least time how long until the motor smokes

Originally posted by mj


yeah me too
can you hook the MM up to the 8274 sto see if it will pull the drum off that POS warn

That's only possible on a bottom mount winch. On an 8274 you would have to take the entire winch plate and front of the frame along for the ride :flipoff2: If you hokked them together like that, I suspect that you would burn the fluid up in the MM in the same amount of time it took to fry the motor on the 8274.

I think the milemarkers are a good winch, especially if you like playing in the water, but the speed has always been a problem (as the original poster is pointing out).

Nuthin more to report on the speed scene, but the vehicle is now down with the garage that is making me some custom hoses to plumb it all up. I've put in the 2nd Milemarker between the chassis rails, about 9" in front of the rear cross member and I've fitted a twin lever spool valve (60lpm, 3000psi max, 1/2 fittings) btween the seats so I can control both winches while sitting in there (and grinning like an idiot while I do it). Managed to fit it outside the seat box, with just the levers coming into the drivers space.


I've gotten a 3 gallon (approc) tank made for the fluid, and that will sit in a rear wheel well. I'm going to try it without a cooler first (as a 1/2 cooler is not small and I'll have to smart finding somewhere to fit it).

Should be winching by early next week!

Merv.

Any updates yet? Merv? RDV?

Yesterday I got a package from Jeff Howe - 6 gpm pump, remote reservoir & filter, and I've already got the cooler and fittings. Partly this is for the ram that'll go in with the 60, but I want to know how you guys are doing with the hydro winches, too...

Lloyd, I've just got my tank back. A close friend of mine, who is also a stainless steel miracle worker decided i needed something sturdier :D No test results yet. Maybe i'll be able to do some no-load testing this weekend, but definately some real world testing the weekend after that. Maybe i will have some pics ready one week after that because i still use a chemical photocamera :( I'll post again when i have something useful to say... I hope. ...

Any idea how you are going to do your test? Fourwheeler (I think) was testing the HS9500i vs the 8724. They got a vehicle with each winch on it and spooled out an equal amount of cable. Then they set the brakes on both vehicles and let them winch towards each other. (that way the load was gaurenteed to be equal) The one that got it's cable in first was declared the winner. 8724 beat the HS9500i by a few feet. They also did the same test with a Warn 15000 and an 8724 doubled up with a snatch block. 8724 won that one too.

wonder who would win the race if they were loaded up not just dragging the park brake

Hi Guys....

I am doing something simular to this with a OX winch, wich is just a re-badged MM .

However I have succesfully mated a 4cyl sedan starter motor to a normal PS pump. This starter motor is a geared reduction one and and under bench tests draws close to 18amp spinning the 4cyl engine with no plugs in.

Now I hope to mount this high up under the hood of the Bronco and use this at times when the engine is not running.

I have worked a way of making a fitting in the original pump on the engine and plumbing this into the res on the top pump. so by filling the top pump I auto fill the bottom one too.

Now, according to guru's at our local power steer shop, I can simply plumb the 2 hi-press line together. As its not possible to make one pump force the other to turn, which ever pump is not spinning will "look" like a dead end.

What this gives me is both Hydro and Elec operation of the MM winch, it also will give me P/Steer operation even if the engine is not running.

Now I know starter motors are not rated for continuous use, but I dont see it being any worse than a elec motor on a warn winch...

Regards... Mike (Australia)

Sounds like a sweet setup with the electric backup. Keep us updated.

I called MileMarker yesterday and had a nice long chat with one of their lead techs. Seems like the 75-series winches come with the 35-series solenoids, which are rated for 3.5 gpm max. However, the 70-series winches come with the 34-series valves, which are rated for 6 gpm. An exception is the 12000 lb. winches, which always come with the 34-series valves regardless of what their web site says. Of course the main factor determining winch speed is pump volume. So, if you're going to run a small pump, the winch will always be slow and it doesn't matter which one you get. If you're gonna run a pump up to 6 gpm get a 70-series winch with 34-series solenoids. If you want to run above 6 gpm you'll need to get your own valves, but the hydro motor will be quite happy at "any" flow rate - regardless of whether its a 70 or 75.

They only show specs at 3.5 gpm because it's consistent and simple.

Originally posted by Lloyd
Seems like the 75-series winches come with the 35-series solenoids, which are rated for 3.5 gpm max. However, the 70-series winches come with the 34-series valves, which are rated for 6 gpm. An exception is the 12000 lb. winches, which always come with the 34-series valves regardless of what their web site says.

Well that sucks since pretty hard IMNSO. WTF do they thinkin?

Anyway the hyd motot on my friggin 75 series is from white hydraulics. IF it is the RS series "code 300" (that one seems to match the claimed specs) then the max GPM is listed at 20 continuous with a peak pressure of 1500.

http://www.whitehydraulics.com/catalog/rs.html

If the solenoid problem can be cured and a decent pump (or modified saginaw) can put out 7 - 10 GPM then the thing should haul ass. I plan to find out.

http://www.darksiderz.co.uk/randd/winch/side.jpg

Originally posted by SniperFire
http://www.darksiderz.co.uk/randd/winch/side.jpg

Man thats wrong a picture and no description. shame on you!!!

Dunno too much about it. A guy runs it on his GWagen at the comps we do. Basically all I know is that its an 8274 that is hydraulically assisted. When the 8274 about reaches stall speed, the hydraulic motor kicks in to help out.

FWIW, once you get the basics sorted out, you may want to consider a servo (jet) valve to control it. It would give you a fine control over line speed. I have a lot of exp. with them on hydralic transmissions. Balls to the wall is great but I can see some advantages to easing into a obstical then applying the line speed to get you up and over. Less wear and tear to the components. Another option to eliminating a big jerk is to install a sequencing valve. It will allow a fast speed until a load is detected and then shift automaticaly to a different size port for a slower speed. Just some thoughts guys, as long as your playing may as well have some fun with it. :D

Wouldn't it be easier to just use engine rpm to control the line speed with a belt driven pump?

tickover slow, high rpm fast. just like a PTO winch.

Ron

Be really prepared...
Maybe you should mount a small gasoline engine and pump under the hood also...
Then, when your hopelessly winching and engine dies, and after you've switched to battery backup winching, and when the battery goes dead, you just hit the choke and pull the rope...
yea baby !

Originally posted by SniperFire
http://www.darksiderz.co.uk/randd/winch/side.jpg

Hi!

I saw thing thing in action at the bulldog trophy last weekend. Nice, but a lot of engineering. We were team 10, White 90 and green 90. Were you there?

Originally posted by Lloyd
Any updates yet? Merv? RDV?

Yesterday I got a package from Jeff Howe - 6 gpm pump, remote reservoir & filter, and I've already got the cooler and fittings. Partly this is for the ram that'll go in with the 60, but I want to know how you guys are doing with the hydro winches, too...

Hi,

Well, just back from a weekend off roading. I can confirm that the MM winches dont blow up with lots of GPM put through!

I dont have a GPM meter on my system, do I dont know what I was putting through. But I know the pump is rated to do 17gpm at max rpm (3600 rpm). I think I ran it at 2500 rpm max speed all weekend. Guess that's about 10gpm or so.

And it was fast enough to keep up with a Bowmotor 1 equipped G10 on my buddies vehicle.

When I put it in high gear, the winch monkey had a tough job to keep the cable pulled away from the vehicle when spooling out under power (which you can do with a MM without generating heat). I did set my sytem to 1800 psi. I did'nt use the MM solenoids, I use a manual lever contolled set, 1/2" pipes everwhere, with a 1/2" spool valve. We had to use a 3/4" pipe from the 3 gallon tank to the pump. We tried 1/2" but it was caviatating.

However....

As the pump is on the gearbox, allowing me to pick the speeed I want to run the pump at, if I dipped the clutch I stopped winching, or if I wanted wheel assisted winching (I only needed to do this where the anchor point was not very solid) I had to run in 1st gear and the winch ran slower than ever! Disaster!

What was good was that the winch still ran the same speed wheather under full load or no load. Also, even after some tough pulls, the oil never heated up at all, and that's with no oil cooler in the circuit.

Over feeling: Very impressed. Like this a lot.

ok I'm with Twalder on this one....

so who knows where to get a 10 - 17 GPM 1800 psi pump...

I supposed a ABS pump is no where near that volume?

what about hydro's for cars or pickup dump beds?

anybody have a clue hear?

gotta landing upside down with a hydro winch!!:D

Originally posted by merv

or if I wanted wheel assisted winching (I only needed to do this where the anchor point was not very solid) I had to run in 1st gear and the winch ran slower than ever! Disaster!
Over feeling: Very impressed. Like this a lot.

Question - So you mean you normally winch in neutral? Or am I reading this wrong?

Yeah that's Tony Baskill's (sp?) GWagen...didn't he come second or something?

Was that the comp where first place prize was a paid trip to the Malaysian Rainforest Challenge?

We weren't there as we are getting the CJ prepped for Lousa (challenge event in Portugal). Lots of small bugs to work out before then.

Supposedly though in the beginning of the year or sometime there's a comp over in Ireland organized by Iwan Jenkins. I guess we'll be going to that.

Originally posted by oldjeep


Question - So you mean you normally winch in neutral? Or am I reading this wrong?

Your reading correctly. What I do is stick the transfer case into neutral, and then I've got 5 forward gears to choose from that decides the speed the pumo turms at (as well as engine revs).

I like to spin the pump at over 2000rpm, so if I go into 4th gear (1:1 ratio), then I can play between 900 rpm to 4000 rpm (Diesel Engine) to adjust the winch speed.

I can drive and winch, but then I go down to 1st gear and the pump goes too slow. It's got a minimum rated speed of 540 rpm (Yes, Just like a tractor).

Originally posted by SniperFire
Yeah that's Tony Baskill's (sp?) GWagen...didn't he come second or something?

Was that the comp where first place prize was a paid trip to the Malaysian Rainforest Challenge?

We weren't there as we are getting the CJ prepped for Lousa (challenge event in Portugal). Lots of small bugs to work out before then.

Supposedly though in the beginning of the year or sometime there's a comp over in Ireland organized by Iwan Jenkins. I guess we'll be going to that.

edit:
The Rainforst Qualifer was a few weeks ago, and I hear it was tough with a lot of broken machines.

Keep in touch if your heading over here! What date is the event your thinking of?

Originally posted by merv


Your reading correctly. What I do is stick the transfer case into neutral, and then I've got 5 forward gears to choose from that decides the speed the pumo turms at (as well as engine revs).

I like to spit the pump at over 2000rpm, so if I go into 4th gear (1:1 ratio), then I can play between 900 rpm to 4000 rpm (Diesel Engine) to adjust the winch speed.

I can drive and winch, but then I go down to 1st gear and the pump goes too slow. It's got a minimum rated speed of 540 rpm (Yes, Just like a tractor).

OK, I can't imagine doing all my winching that way - I generally just use the winch as a helper so I can drive it out, the 8274 is way faster than my idle speed so driving over the cable isn't much of a concern. The way you are winching would certainly be a good testing environment since you're putting way more load on the winch than would normally be needed, and if that's the way you do things I would definitly stay away from any sort of electric winch.

Originally posted by Moab Austin
ok I'm with Twalder on this one....

so who knows where to get a 10 - 17 GPM 1800 psi pump...

I supposed a ABS pump is no where near that volume?

what about hydro's for cars or pickup dump beds?

anybody have a clue hear?

gotta landing upside down with a hydro winch!!:D

Have a look here, I have a 40 series pump from this company:

http://www.crossmfg.com/gearpump.html

Originally posted by oldjeep


OK, I can't imagine doing all my winching that way - I generally just use the winch as a helper so I can drive it out, the 8274 is way faster than my idle speed so driving over the cable isn't much of a concern. The way you are winching would certainly be a good testing environment since you're putting way more load on the winch than would normally be needed, and if that's the way you do things I would definitly stay away from any sort of electric winch.

I would be happier being able to winch assist (drive and winch at the same time), but the gearbox connection buggers that up. The only restriction it puts on me is that my anchor point must be very good as I cannot help it, and sometimes it's good to turn the wheels to get out of a rut or whatever.

What I like about this system is that it is 100% electric free. Even the spool valve is manual, and I'm using a diesel so the wet condition we get in Ireland dont cause me any worries.

and it pulls like hell :flipoff2:

BTW Merv...if you know of anyone taking pictures at the comp, I'd be happy to host them up on my site

Originally posted by merv


Have a look here, I have a 40 series pump from this company:

http://www.crossmfg.com/gearpump.html

Great.. but if this is the same old thread I think it is.

I would want a pump thats electric and pulled less amps than an electric winch. The pump is easy, now we need an electric motor that won't heat up and can turn the thing at around 1500 rpms (I guess.. no rating on that pump you show).

Originally posted by Travis Waldher


Great.. but if this is the same old thread I think it is.

I would want a pump thats electric and pulled less amps than an electric winch. The pump is easy, now we need an electric motor that won't heat up and can turn the thing at around 1500 rpms (I guess.. no rating on that pump you show).

Good forking luck. His pump is making ~17 hp at full tilt. Wind a 12 VDC motor to do that continuous duty and you'll have something the size of a VW bug. Electric over hydraulic isn't going to improve the overall efficiency of the system one little bit. If you want electric, buy an electric winch. You don't get something for nothing.

Originally posted by merv


I would be happier being able to winch assist (drive and winch at the same time), but the gearbox connection buggers that up. The only restriction it puts on me is that my anchor point must be very good as I cannot help it, and sometimes it's good to turn the wheels to get out of a rut or whatever.

What I like about this system is that it is 100% electric free. Even the spool valve is manual, and I'm using a diesel so the wet condition we get in Ireland dont cause me any worries.

and it pulls like hell :flipoff2:

Can't you just run your pump directly off the engine via a belt? Why did you have to go PTO? Otherwise, not sure what tranny you have, but you might be able to use a tranny PTO. You'd only have one speed, but it wouldn't matter what gear you were in. If it was geared correctly it would work.

Turning that big a hydro pump with a garden-variety automotive belt is asking an awful lot of the belt, IMHO. Better carry lots o' spares. ;)

Originally posted by Lloyd


Good forking luck. His pump is making ~17 hp at full tilt. Wind a 12 VDC motor to do that continuous duty and you'll have something the size of a VW bug. Electric over hydraulic isn't going to improve the overall efficiency of the system one little bit. If you want electric, buy an electric winch. You don't get something for nothing.

But, I don't want an electric winch. I want a hydraulic one. I'm tired of burnt up motors. BUT, when I get stuck where the milemarker would shine (under water), odds are the engine is already dead. So whats the point?

Need to figure out a electric over hydraulic.

Maybe an electric motor with a planetary gearset driving the hydraulic pump? I dunno, thats a question to the guys on here in the know.

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep


Can't you just run your pump directly off the engine via a belt? Why did you have to go PTO? Otherwise, not sure what tranny you have, but you might be able to use a tranny PTO. You'd only have one speed, but it wouldn't matter what gear you were in. If it was geared correctly it would work.

He wants more than one speed.

Also, belts break, PTO's (hopefully) don't.

Run the pump off of a Briggs & Stratton.

I understand why you want a hydraulic winch, but my point is just that electric over hydraulic will make a worse system than straight electric due to the added losses. It'll use more juice to do the same amount of work as a straight electric, it'll burn up motors faster, etc. Electric backup like Gremlin460 is working on is a fine idea, but running it that way all the time would sure suck. Maybe dirtrod has the answer; Briggs & Stratton on a hydraulic pump for backup.

You beat me to it, JeepinIan!

Originally posted by Lloyd
I understand why you want a hydraulic winch, but my point is just that electric over hydraulic will make a worse system than straight electric due to the added losses. It'll use more juice to do the same amount of work as a straight electric, it'll burn up motors faster, etc. Electric backup like Gremlin460 is working on is a fine idea, but running it that way all the time would sure suck. Maybe dirtrod has the answer; Briggs & Stratton on a hydraulic pump for backup.

K.. how about.

Take a hydraulic winch, on the side with the planetaries, take a modified shaft that runs through the planetarys to an electric motor. The electric motor just sits there under normal operation, no clutch to disengage the motor from the shaft, just let the hydro motor turn the electric one.

Next for the brake, run a hydro brake. When you pull the trigger to run the electric motor it opens the solenoids used for braking hydraulically (same solenoids used for regular hydro winch operations). When winching the hydro motor is going to pump fluid through the system like a pump would. When you release the trigger the solenoids close "engaging the brake with maybe a small delay in braking while the fluid compresses to 1200psi or so.

Or.. would that be a problem, can fluid under low pressure pass through a power steering pump without the power steering pump turning.

This idea would require custom modification of the winch housing though.

It'd be better to physically disconnect whichever system isn't operating. Run a DC motor with the hydraulics and you have a generator. Run the hydraulic motor with the electric motor and it will turn the PS pump (or whatever you have for a pump on that circuit). Of course you can run a bypass valve, and charge your battery, etc. but getting into a hybrid like the pic posted above can't be cheap or easy.

Originally posted by reddwarf


He wants more than one speed.

Also, belts break, PTO's (hopefully) don't.

Sounds to me like he's got one usefull speed (4th or direct) and at least 1 useless speed (1st) I would think if he geared it to the most usefull speed he'd be able to do 90% of what he wants to do AND be able to drive the wheels at whatever speed he wants too. If a standard v-belt isn't enough he can always go to a cogged belt or something.

Definately an interesting topic though as I will have the same limitations once I get my Jeep with its PTO winch running. Ideally I'd like to have it geared such that it pulls very close to the same speed as the wheels are turning. I guess I'll find out how far off it is once I get it running.

Originally posted by Lloyd
It'd be better to physically disconnect whichever system isn't operating. Run a DC motor with the hydraulics and you have a generator. Run the hydraulic motor with the electric motor and it will turn the PS pump (or whatever you have for a pump on that circuit). Of course you can run a bypass valve, and charge your battery, etc. but getting into a hybrid like the pic posted above can't be cheap or easy.

Still... both of those are relatively simple to solve problems if you can get past a special adapter and custom lnegth shaft.

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep


Can't you just run your pump directly off the engine via a belt? Why did you have to go PTO? Otherwise, not sure what tranny you have, but you might be able to use a tranny PTO. You'd only have one speed, but it wouldn't matter what gear you were in. If it was geared correctly it would work.

That was solution number 2. It worked ok, and had the advantage (over running the winch off the PS pump) that you could steer while winching. There'se pictures of it here :

http://www.ifwdc.com/tech/winchpump/winchpump.html

(I'ts not a dead serious page, but you'll get the idea).

anyway, the most you can run on a belt is about 2 or 3 hp. Yes, you can go cogged or multiple belts. You've to go a long way to push in enough HP into a serious pump.

Think about this. When winching with electric, a serious hard pull can run down a pair of yellow top optimas in what? 10 minutes? That laternater is taking the rest, and most folk upgrade to 100 amp + alternators for this. With a Hydo system, you have no "batteries". All 100%of the pulling force is generated from the engine. If the pull takes 10hp, then it's 10hp from your engine (lets not worry about effieciencies here). If the most power a Vbelt can carry is 3 hp, then 3hp is the max power from your winch.

as someone else has spotted, this pump can take up to 17 HP to push! That's at 3000 psi, and ive set the pressure releave valve on the spool valve set to 1800psi so I'll never take 17hp, but probably do take 10.

Originally posted by Lloyd
I understand why you want a hydraulic winch, but my point is just that electric over hydraulic will make a worse system than straight electric due to the added losses. It'll use more juice to do the same amount of work as a straight electric, it'll burn up motors faster, etc. Electric backup like Gremlin460 is working on is a fine idea, but running it that way all the time would sure suck. Maybe dirtrod has the answer; Briggs & Stratton on a hydraulic pump for backup.

I was'nt at the event, but in Foal earlier this year, someone did that. but the engine they used wasnt strong enough to spin the pump they had, and used to die off and cut out. Seemingly they scrapped the idea. Mayby they just needed a bigger engine, or smaller pump?

Merv.

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep


Sounds to me like he's got one usefull speed (4th or direct) and at least 1 useless speed (1st) I would think if he geared it to the most usefull speed he'd be able to do 90% of what he wants to do AND be able to drive the wheels at whatever speed he wants too. If a standard v-belt isn't enough he can always go to a cogged belt or something.

Definately an interesting topic though as I will have the same limitations once I get my Jeep with its PTO winch running. Ideally I'd like to have it geared such that it pulls very close to the same speed as the wheels are turning. I guess I'll find out how far off it is once I get it running.

I think your right. I got a pump that rated for 17gpm, but i've to spin it too fast to do so. If you had a pump that would do 10gpm at 500 rpm, then you could use first all the time.

I managed to do only a little testing, because i messed up converting the pump from LH to RH drive. I forgot to rotate the upper pump housing relative to the lower, so the bores meant for lubing the bearings, gears and seal got exposed to some 2000 psi. The seal didn't like that too much. Anyway, it's working now, and putting out about 2 gal/min at 800 engine rpm. I did some very minor winch speed testing, and with 2000 engine rpm the winch (high gear!) is about as fast as a Warn. In low it's about as fast (or slow) as my friends 24V 12000# Superwinch. It seems i'm in for some more tweaking and testing.

I didn't get to do "real" tests, because at yesterday night's annual nightly mudding event most of my Dodge's electrical system self destructed. Dodge electrics are already iffy all by themselves, but the way i hooked up several other things over the years certainly didn't help...

About those elctro-hydraulic pumps.. Hasn't anybody thought about 24V truck pumps, which are (overhere, anyway) generally used for powering those hydraulic (un)loading ramps/lifts at the rear end of trucks ?

I've been doing some checking into running a vein style pump that is driven off the engine, because I do not want to run a PTO style. These pumps are pretty small and can be found in a multitude of pressures and GPM. So far everything should work out great, it will need a 2-3 gallon resivoir and run a solenoid to a electric over hydro valve this way no hydro lines need run inside and I can make a control lead to reach outside the cab.

Heres to Mile Marker:flipoff2: :flipoff2: . I work for warn and and unless you want to pick up a crap load of weight, with pumps
and resovors(min of almost 5 gal res.) and a P.O.S winch then go with MM. Another thing warn does make a series 9 (9000lbs) and series 12 (12,000lbs) hyd winchs, and I strongly would recommend that you do some homework in finding out why warns number 1 in the winch market. Unless you just plan on being stuck and becoming bear poo. Go Prepared. ........and then you will still be able to go home at the end of the day.;) :jeep2:

Cheers mile Marker, YOU WANKERS
:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: -:flipoff:

M-
(ALL my own thoughts)

look here you Newbie Bitch, you have nothing to add to this discustion. So you work for warn whoop de fucking do. Dont come to this board tring to push warns shit. Yes they make "some" decent winch's but dont start bashing other brands of winchs. What a fucking loser. No go back the the hole you crawled out of. :flipoff:

Look here now theres nothing wrong with alittle sh** talking.
Everyone has there own thoughts, and it allowed to say as they
feel, thats why the boards here... Buy as you please, I was just expressing my own thoughts. Dont like it, Dont read it.

:usa: Freedom to choose


:skull: Go Prepared :skull:
Still :flipoff2: Mile Marker


M-

Originally posted by SquirrelPwr
Look here now theres nothing wrong with alittle sh** talking.
Everyone has there own thoughts, and it allowed to say as they
feel, thats why the boards here... Buy as you please, I was just expressing my own thoughts. Dont like it, Dont read it.

:usa: Freedom to choose


:skull: Go Prepared :skull:
Still :flipoff2: Mile Marker


M-

OK, and your input into this thread helped out the questions how? Nobody here cares who you work for, especially when you bash your competitors. IMO, if you have to bash them, you are only bringing yourself down 'cause you can't bring your product up any higher in quality. So, newbie whore, shutup.

There's nothing wrong w/ sh!ttalking, just put it where it beliongs, and keep it off the informative threads.

Originally posted by JKOZ
I've been doing some checking into running a vein style pump that is driven off the engine, because I do not want to run a PTO style. These pumps are pretty small and can be found in a multitude of pressures and GPM. So far everything should work out great, it will need a 2-3 gallon resivoir and run a solenoid to a electric over hydro valve this way no hydro lines need run inside and I can make a control lead to reach outside the cab.

Just a Thought on that. I went with manual spool valve in the vehicle because this way I can control how much or little oil hits the winch by moving the lever more or less. This allows me to "feather" in the full flow, and to "feather" it back down to zero flow. This (I have been told) is much easier on seals that a full on full off system. I am sure it's easier on the vehicle and anchor point. e.g. if you winch 1/2 way up a steep hill, want to stop and start again, if it stops and starts suddenly, you can picture the "jolt" type forces running through everything.

Also, if you go pto pump on a diesel, and you have a manual spool valve (or cable, or hyraulic over hydraulic), then you have a 100% electric free system - works underwater :-)

Even the compressor on my truck runs 100% of the time with no electic clutch at all. I use a manual pressure releave valve to stop the air resevoir and pump for exploding. (Also leave the system open to atmosphere to not load the engine until I want it, then I close the system and it builds pressure.). No electrics :-)

I ran a clutched belt driven pump on my MM for several years. The pump was about a 20gpm job from either Norther hydraulics or burden surplus. the clutch on the pump looked identical to the clutch on a big AC compressor, like early ford maybe? I used a spool valve with the 10,500# MM single speed winch. I was trying to get the single speed to go faster before they came up with the 2 speed setup. I started with a 7K# motor but with only 1700 psi and no possibility of using the other belt groove, I needed a slower but harder pulling motor.

Basically, I was able to get 1700 psi out of the single belt and pull at virtually any speed I wanted. The spool valve was great for control, I could run the motor at any RPM with the tires doing whatever I wanted and move the line at inches per minute or 40 or so feet per minute.
UNDER FULL LOAD. Try that with any electric.
If I had room for the pump on my current motor/cage setup, I'd have kept the hydro setup but I have a HS9500 now and do miss the line speed under load.

My system (reservoir, hoses, etc) only held a gallon or so. It worked out well since it's a system that returns, not like a hyd cylinder that holds oil. More would be better but mine worked.

As for electric/hydraulic, good luck, I don't think you're going to get much for performance. You can get off the shelf elec/hyd. pumps but they don't have a lot of output and are large and heavy. I thought about a hand pump even but that ended up really slow. You'd be better off using your high lift!

Basically, I would have no problems running a belt driven pump, even with a single drive belt. And I know you can get clutches for serpentine setups now too.
If I was PTO driven, I'd look for a HUGE pump and control the winch speed with the spool valve and the wheel speed with the transmission and throttle. That would help "de-couple" the drive wheels and winch speed.

Originally posted by SquirrelPwr
Heres to Mile Marker:flipoff2: :flipoff2: . I work for warn and and unless you want to pick up a crap load of weight, with pumps
and resovors(min of almost 5 gal res.) and a P.O.S winch then go with MM. Another thing warn does make a series 9 (9000lbs) and series 12 (12,000lbs) hyd winchs, and I strongly would recommend that you do some homework in finding out why warns number 1 in the winch market. Unless you just plan on being stuck and becoming bear poo. Go Prepared. ........and then you will still be able to go home at the end of the day.;) :jeep2:

Cheers mile Marker, YOU WANKERS
:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: -:flipoff:

M-
(ALL my own thoughts)

Listen dipshit.

they are #1 due to their PAST owners customer service. Not due to a superior product. The 8274-50 is the only product I would call superior to other winches. The 9.5i is getting closer but you still have the piece of shit brakeing system that burns motors up while powering out. (Hence the little dummy light on the 9.5i's remote, which is probably there to save the seals when it gets to hot so it doesn't leak water in)

right now, the ONLY thing Warn has over milemarker is 1) speed, 2) they run when the engine is dead. Otherwise, Milemarker has your asses beat. It pulls stronger, farther and longer than Warn.

Customer service, I melted my winch down for warn on THEIR demonstration hill. The winch only ran up and down a 50 degree hill powering in and out for 60 minutes non stop. But, when the winch melted down, Warn coulda offered me a new motor for my 9500i. but.. nope. they didn't even offer me new solenoids and brakes for it when the motor took those out. Only reason I got the later two free was from knowing someone IN warn.

Bottom line, Warn customer service has gone to shit. Unless they sell something that I can only get from them. I stay away.

First off let me apologize im sorry for words theat were posted, I realize now that the words and thoughts of my post werent ment on this thread. I hope you guys will aceppt my apologies.
Cheers to mile marker and there prouducts.
M-
[FatMike]

Originally posted by SquirrelPwr
First off let me apologize im sorry for words theat were posted, I realize now that the words and thoughts of my post werent ment on this thread. I hope you guys will aceppt my apologies.
Cheers to mile marker and there prouducts.
M-
[FatMike]

What an asskisser you are. Posting an apology like this says you got no balls. :crybaby:

SMACK!!!

posted-

What an asskisser you are. Posting an apology like this says you got no balls.

__________________
Ian Thomas Stewart, all the way from sunny South Florida
Plantation Jeep Club

Ok-
Ass kisser I am, what I wrote didnt go with the post, and
I wanted to say hey, my goof, sorry for bashin on Mile Marker, maybe I told alittle to much about my thoughts.
This is what I get back You,
have No Balls." And I ll bet you have uticals? J/k :laughing:
What I said wasnt and shouldnt of been on the post, Maybe by
admitting what I said wasnt right shows I have More Balls, then you think. :vader2:
Later-
:skull:

Retarded fawkin newbies! :rolleyes: :flipoff2:

what tdo you think this is the BB? :D

Originally posted by 1248bullitt
Retarded fawkin newbies! :rolleyes: :flipoff2:

Uh uh.... yeah... tell us once you get off the short bus yourself.

Cut the noob some slack, he fawked up and was man enough to apologize for it.

Originally posted by 1248bullitt -
Retarded fawkin newbies!


Hey there big guy might wanna recheck what it says under
your name..:rolleyes: ..oh wait you already knew that. Drop it already...
At least I can admit I messed up. Nuff Said.
How about we get back to talking about winchs on this post?

:skull:

Originally posted by Stephen
I ran a clutched belt driven pump on my MM for several years. The pump was about a 20gpm job from either Norther hydraulics or burden surplus. the clutch on the pump looked identical to the clutch on a big AC compressor, like early ford maybe? I used a spool valve with the 10,500# MM single speed winch. I was trying to get the single speed to go faster before they came up with the 2 speed setup. I started with a 7K# motor but with only 1700 psi and no possibility of using the other belt groove, I needed a slower but harder pulling motor.

Basically, I was able to get 1700 psi out of the single belt and pull at virtually any speed I wanted. The spool valve was great for control, I could run the motor at any RPM with the tires doing whatever I wanted and move the line at inches per minute or 40 or so feet per minute.
UNDER FULL LOAD. Try that with any electric.
If I had room for the pump on my current motor/cage setup, I'd have kept the hydro setup but I have a HS9500 now and do miss the line speed under load.

My system (reservoir, hoses, etc) only held a gallon or so. It worked out well since it's a system that returns, not like a hyd cylinder that holds oil. More would be better but mine worked.



Now that sounds like the mutts nutts. I'd much prefer that, but I'm suprised that a single V belt can handle that much HP?

The clutch did have a pretty big pulley on it, maybe that was a factor? And it had 2 grooves, I just didn't have a place to put the other belt, others might.
One other cool feature was having a pressure gauge on it so I could tell how much pull I was using. More a curiousity thing than an important feature, but still fun to watch.

Those of you looking for winch power with no motor, MM has a portable (if you have some buddies with you) power pack with a little gas powered motor and hyd. pump. It's heavy but it would work.

thank you for posting up Stephen.
I wish you had laid all that out in some of the other hydro winch threads as some star power would have helped some open their eyes IMO.

I as thinking on making emercency adapters to run accessories with my chain saw.

a V belt has an advantage over cogs in that it will simply slip rather then destroy itself when asked to perform loads it isnt capable of.
hard to break one without killing it for awhile

thank you merv for everything you have posted here.

guys you rock... a quick summary:

ok so 70 series winch with 34 series valve and 6 GPM @ 1800 PSI for the best off the shelf performance. do you need to drill out the hexagon thingy with the 1/16" hole to realize performance gains with this setup and if so how much bigger does it need to be?


full out setup would be 20 GPM @1800 PSI with 1/2 inch hose and a spool valve with definate drilling of the hexagon thingy. the only downside i see to this is that i would need someone to control the winch from inside while i was outside handling the cable. a lot of times im out by myself so this could be a problem..

GPM increase = line speed increase
PSI increase = line pull increase with 1800 being best?

since im buying a new winch does it matter which one i get?
9k = $524
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
10.5k = $538
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
12k = $732
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
prcies from: http://www.winchesplus.com/

i will be driving it with a PTO pump on my Ford ZF-5

peace
Jw

Does anyone know where I can get a PTO pump unit for my NV4500? I have been looking and cant find anything.

Doesn't an NV4500 use a standard 6 bolt Spicer type PTO?

i just sent an email to this place:
http://www.houstondrivetrain.com/power.htm
they were the only working link in my PTO section. so yea i could use any PTO info as well..
peace
Jw

Originally posted by Rebel
i just sent an email to this place:
http://www.houstondrivetrain.com/power.htm
they were the only working link in my PTO section. so yea i could use any PTO info as well..
peace
Jw

I just called that place and they said the PTO unit would cost around $400-500 and the pump would be another $400 on top of that. This was all for a NV4500.

FWIW- Subaru XT-6s in the late 80's, early 90's used an electric power steering pump. It basically looks like a starter with a reservoir on it, but the motor is 100% duty cycle. They are mounted on the firewall and can be picked up from a junkyard for $50-$75.

Supposedly, (haven't put a guage on one) they put out 1200 to 1500 psi, about the same as a Saginaw. I'm not sure of the gpm.

A buddy of mine uses one for his rear steering and, as a matter of fact, he uses the in/out portion of a MM winch for his left/right steering.

Originally posted by Lowrangerider


I just called that place and they said the PTO unit would cost around $400-500 and the pump would be another $400 on top of that. This was all for a NV4500.
yea i didnt figure it would be cheap, but nothing good ever is.. did they give ya any specs on that pump? thanks for the info.
peace
Jw

that was a 22 gpm pump...

Has anybody given any thought to a "CrankShaft" driven hydraulic pump???? And I don't mean belt driven I mean "Shaft" driven off the crank.

Originally posted by Rebel
guys you rock... a quick summary:

ok so 70 series winch with 34 series valve and 6 GPM @ 1800 PSI for the best off the shelf performance. do you need to drill out the hexagon thingy with the 1/16" hole to realize performance gains with this setup and if so how much bigger does it need to be?


full out setup would be 20 GPM @1800 PSI with 1/2 inch hose and a spool valve with definate drilling of the hexagon thingy. the only downside i see to this is that i would need someone to control the winch from inside while i was outside handling the cable. a lot of times im out by myself so this could be a problem..

GPM increase = line speed increase
PSI increase = line pull increase with 1800 being best?

since im buying a new winch does it matter which one i get?
9k = $524
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
10.5k = $538
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
12k = $732
(+ $50 freight to 48 states)
prcies from: http://www.winchesplus.com/

i will be driving it with a PTO pump on my Ford ZF-5

peace
Jw

I think you got the picture. I'd guess the 10.5 should cater for most stuff - you know what you need the best.

I've managed to stall out my winch for the first time ever a few weeks ago. all that happened was the release valve in the spool controls popped and once the load was off it winched away again. No worries. I am going to go up to 2000 psi and see what that gives me. I've heard (email only) of someone that's over 2200 psi and its not blown up yet.

If you are mainly on your own, no reason not to mount the spool valve outside by the winch, except then you cannot steer and winch :-)

Merv.

Originally posted by Loafer409
Has anybody given any thought to a "CrankShaft" driven hydraulic pump???? And I don't mean belt driven I mean "Shaft" driven off the crank.

muts nuts.

Originally posted by merv


I think you got the picture. I'd guess the 10.5 should cater for most stuff - you know what you need the best.

I've managed to stall out my winch for the first time ever a few weeks ago. all that happened was the release valve in the spool controls popped and once the load was off it winched away again. No worries. I am going to go up to 2000 psi and see what that gives me. I've heard (email only) of someone that's over 2200 psi and its not blown up yet.

If you are mainly on your own, no reason not to mount the spool valve outside by the winch, except then you cannot steer and winch :-)

Merv.
thanks merv
actually i was thinking (i know its scary when that happens) why not mount a spool valve inside the truck and another on the the front bumper? that way for in the cab winching i could have the inside one closed and then open the outside one. once i returned inside i could then control the winch from there or visa versa? i dont see why the spool valve wouldnt work inline like that? do you? that would be the best of both worlds.... unless someone says halt im gonna try that.. i hope it works :D
peace
Jw

typically a Morse cable is added to put remote controls on hydraulic levers.
look at Hiabs or other equipment where the operator can be in a few spots.
one valve with extra means of moving the lever

Originally posted by Loafer409
Has anybody given any thought to a "CrankShaft" driven hydraulic pump???? And I don't mean belt driven I mean "Shaft" driven off the crank.

93 - 97 FZJ80 has a power steering pump that is gear driven via crankshaft off the back of the timing cover. Suppose that's only helpful if you want to install the LC 4.5 engine.

Another option to get enough power to a pump would be a cogged belt in place of a V or serp. belt.

Brian

Originally posted by Harvester of Sorrow
He is right...it is the rate of fluid transfer not the pressure of the transfer.

Also the other dude is right...it will never be as fast as an electric, it will out pull them though:flipoff2:

anyway...just mount the thing and be happy that you have a winch!
Check northern tools or warn. They both have 12 pumps. I’ve even seen then set up to kick it and take over if the motor dies.