So, other then clearance issues around the engine, is there any reason not to run a rear wishbone with lower links type set up in the front?

I am thinking a midengine where both the front and rear suspensions are mirror images of each other.

edit: this is also not a trailer queen, its a daily driver. 80mph on the interstate.

Rear prop length?

So, other then clearance issues around the engine, is there any reason not to run a rear wishbone with lower links type set up in the front?

I am thinking a midengine where both the front and rear suspensions are mirror images of each other.

That is more or less standard practice on Prototype trialers in these parts. They use Volvo portals and typically an engine and tranny package from a front wheel drive VW to save weight. Turn the engine 90 degrees to make it longitudinal, weld up the transaxle diff and attach front and rear props. Tube chassis and, if I'm not mistaken, total weight just above 1,100 kg (approx 2,500 lbs). Not mid engine, though, and the wishbone is there to clear the oil pan.

Rear prop length?

Nope. Going from 88" WB to 105" WB while moving engine 12" to the rear. So rear drive shaft will be 5" longer then it is now.

That is more or less standard practice on Prototype trialers in these parts. They use Volvo portals and typically an engine and tranny package from a front wheel drive VW to save weight. Turn the engine 90 degrees to make it longitudinal, weld up the transaxle diff and attach front and rear props. Tube chassis and, if I'm not mistaken, total weight just above 1,100 kg (approx 2,500 lbs). Not mid engine, though, and the wishbone is there to clear the oil pan.

Yeah, just playing around with it, the stock rear Y frame, wishbone, what ever you call it, will clear everything.
I have my coilovers in and am just still playing around with the front end. Since the engine is moving and I have the space, I am thinking - why not?
In my head it seems like it would be better then the stock frt set up.
Just wondering if the geometry would be correct.

I think it's brilliant. There is no better performing system as far as straight articulation that I have seen. Plus it would bring the cool factor. Post up pics of this thing. It sounds amazing.

Love to, but for now it only looks like this :D

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/JUPPOD/020307_1357_0025_dshs~Cat-Scan-Images-of-Brain-Posters.jpg

Several people have tried to run front wishbones on XJs.
The main problem has always been steering.
Unless you're going full hydro, a wishbone just isn't strong enough to hold up to side forces from steering.
You still end up needing a panhard bar and that pretty much kills the whole point of the wishbone.

Is that because of a weekness in the Jeep wishbone, or the wishbone in general?

Is it the wishbone itself, the single joint, or the joint mount at the axle that is the failure?

I wouldn't be worried about getting enough width out of the wishbone because on the Rover rear end it hits the middle of the housing, can't see that interfering with the steering. The trailing arms could potentially be an issue, but I doubt it. Clearance around the motor at full stuff is the major issue, but if the motor is getting pushed back a foot it should all clear.

Is that because of a weekness in the Jeep wishbone, or the wishbone in general?

Is it the wishbone itself, the single joint, or the joint mount at the axle that is the failure?Jeep doesn't have a wishbone. These were all custom designs.

The single joint is the problem and I've seen some serious joint designs used.
If you're thinking of just using a standard LR rear wishbone assy...
Not even close to strong enough.

I wouldn't be worried about getting enough width out of the wishbone because on the Rover rear end it hits the middle of the housing, can't see that interfering with the steering. The trailing arms could potentially be an issue, but I doubt it. Clearance around the motor at full stuff is the major issue, but if the motor is getting pushed back a foot it should all clear.Interference isn't the issue, strength is.

It's a beautiful design IF you go full hydro.

I don't see the strength issue with regular steering. How much input can a steering box possibly have as compared to the side-loading see from off-camber slams and bouncing sideways through rocks?

I don't see the strength issue with regular steering. How much input can a steering box possibly have as compared to the side-loading see from off-camber slams and bouncing sideways through rocks?Hydro assist and full hydro systems exist because of the huge amount of force encountered by the steering system.
How many times have you seen bent panhard bars?
Most come from pulling hard on the steering while wedged.
IOW, the steering box was stronger than the panhard bar.

The joints would be OK for a short time and then quickly get very worn & sloppy.
However, even in the beginning, handling was described as vague.

Hydro assist and full hydro systems exist because of the huge amount of force encountered by the steering system.
How many times have you seen bent panhard bars?
Most come from pulling hard on the steering while wedged.
IOW, the steering box was stronger than the panhard bar.

The joints would be OK for a short time and then quickly get very worn & sloppy.
However, even in the beginning, handling was described as vague.

You make great points and I agree with you. However, IMO the stock Ball joint on the rover is epic strong. If this was going to work, the rover balljoint would be a good experiment.

You make great points and I agree with you. However, IMO the stock Ball joint on the rover is epic strong. If this was going to work, the rover balljoint would be a good experiment.The joints I've seen built seriously dwarfed the LR joint.

Hey, I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm just saying better men than I have tried and failed.
I'd love to see someone succeed.

It'd be like trying to pull off "the switch".


With sisters :D

The joints I've seen built seriously dwarfed the LR joint.

Hey, I'm not saying it's impossible.
I'm just saying better men than I have tried and failed.
I'd love to see someone succeed.

It'd be like trying to pull off "the switch".


With sisters :D

More like the "The Houdini". :laughing:

But the rover ball joint is meant for these exact load forces. Most "huge" joints I have seen in this application were not.

I just can't see a Rover ball joint or a 1.24" heim failing before the steering box or the knuckle. I have seen plenty of Rover panhard rod failures, but never due to steering, mainly sliding sideways into things, steering will either bend the ti-rod, drag-link or just turn the gearbox into dust. That's been my experience anyway.

You make great points and I agree with you. However, IMO the stock Ball joint on the rover is epic strong. If this was going to work, the rover balljoint would be a good experiment.

This is what happens when a rear frame ear fails, then the links failed, then my fox shocks broke, then the pinion broke in half, then the exhaust went...

Whats the ONLY thing holding my rear end in is the ROVER BALL JOINT!!! and im still running the same one...

P>S I had no body damage before this... now look where i am!

hehehe

Looks like you turned your Rover axle into a duce-and-a-half axle
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.




.
ya know - pumpkin down ? (j/k)

HAHA I never though of it that way! :D

Great.

1/2 of me is excited to get started, the other half scared to death I will die going down the interstate

Pete

This is what happens when a rear frame ear fails, then the links failed, then my fox shocks broke, then the pinion broke in half, then the exhaust went...

Whats the ONLY thing holding my rear end in is the ROVER BALL JOINT!!! and im still running the same one...

P>S I had no body damage before this... now look where i am!

I feel for you! I had the same thing happen only my links failed. Lost the d-shaft, both air shocks, both links. Rover ball held with no issues. It's hard to get off the trail with nothing holding your truck up!

I feel for you! I had the same thing happen only my links failed. Lost the d-shaft, both air shocks, both links. Rover ball held with no issues. It's hard to get off the trail with nothing holding your truck up!

I had to leave it there for a week, and go back and weld everything back on with a generater and a 110 miller...

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the major bumpsteer issue you will have if you're running a steering box. With the wishbone centering the axle when the suspension cycles the axle moves vertically, while your drag link travels in an arc. Suspension goes down, wheels turn left, suspension compresses wheels turn right. Makes things real interesting in a panic braking situation. You also cant run a panhard bar because it'll bind. Going full hydro would make this a non issue.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the major bumpsteer issue you will have if you're running a steering box. With the wishbone centering the axle when the suspension cycles the axle moves vertically, while your drag link travels in an arc. Suspension goes down, wheels turn left, suspension compresses wheels turn right. Makes things real interesting in a panic braking situation. You also cant run a panhard bar because it'll bind. Going full hydro would make this a non issue.

Great point. I forgot about that.

But, Rovers steer like ass anyway.

you don't need a welder to fix that, lane!!! we drove my buddy ryans truck out on blocks of woods and car hauler straps. :laughing:

seems like full hydro is the way to go.... do it!

Great point. I forgot about that.

But, Rovers steer like ass anyway.

compared to what?

stock v stock right????

Serg

Hi,
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the major bumpsteer issue you will have if you're running a steering box. With the wishbone centering the axle when the suspension cycles the axle moves vertically, while your drag link travels in an arc. Suspension goes down, wheels turn left, suspension compresses wheels turn right. Makes things real interesting in a panic braking situation. You also cant run a panhard bar
because it'll bind. Going full hydro would make this a non issue.

Add to this the problem of roll-centres - doesn't sound like the sort of truck I'd like to drive in traffic at 80mph!

Having said that take a look at the French Auverland A3, that uses an A frame upper link but the upper link is mounted to the chassis in front of the axle whilst the rear links run aft to the chassis. They flex quite well for small trucks.

I think you'd be better off with four-link and a panhard rod at the front, that way you can set up the roll centres correctly and still get good articulation.

100SRV

you don't need a welder to fix that, lane!!! we drove my buddy ryans truck out on blocks of woods and car hauler straps. :laughing:

seems like full hydro is the way to go.... do it!

Car hauler straps usually work, I did it once when one side broke, but in this case everything broke, the only thing hooked was the upper balljoint..

compared to what?

stock v stock right????

Serg

Every other truck evar. :flipoff2:

Hi,


Add to this the problem of roll-centres - doesn't sound like the sort of truck I'd like to drive in traffic at 80mph!

Having said that take a look at the French Auverland A3, that uses an A frame upper link but the upper link is mounted to the chassis in front of the axle whilst the rear links run aft to the chassis. They flex quite well for small trucks.

I think you'd be better off with four-link and a panhard rod at the front, that way you can set up the roll centres correctly and still get good articulation.

100SRV

the roll center height will be determind by the height of the ball, so it depends on where that is mounted.....

not saying there isnt a better way but im sure it could be done so it is acceptable

Serg

Car hauler straps usually work, I did it once when one side broke, but in this case everything broke, the only thing hooked was the upper balljoint..

yeah, that's what happened to his truck. Only one side broke....

i think I am going to wuss out and just got to a 5-link up front.

This was a cool pic of me welding on the trail. I kept thinking a bobcat was gonna pounce me stuck under my truck welding in the middle of the woods in a canyon! it was liek 2 AM.. Good times..