Is camping allowed at Buck Island Lake? I'm specifically wondering about the area where there are trees and a wooden table set up near the dam (aka Mechanics Area)? Are you allowed to bring your vehicles down in there?

If that's part of the area where you are supposed to keep your vehicle within 20' of the trail, how do you find the center of the trail? I couldn't find any markings out that way?

Thanks for any and all help!
Diane

You can camp there but your vehicles will need to stay next to the trail. The 25' rule applies so do your best to meet that requirement. In my experience, if you keep your rigs on the rock slabs adjacent to the trail you should be ok.

My understanding is that they acknowledge the Buck Island area as a key camping area and don't hold people to the 25 feet. The purpose of the rule is to discourage cherry stem proliferation along other parts of the trail.

My understanding is that they acknowledge the Buck Island area as a key camping area and don't hold people to the 25 feet.

To my knowledge, the complete trail is subject to the 25' rule including the Mechanic's area at Buck Island. I'm sure someone will post up a claification.

My understanding is that they acknowledge the Buck Island area as a key camping area and don't hold people to the 25 feet. The purpose of the rule is to discourage cherry stem proliferation along other parts of the trail.
Any leeway depends on who is enforcing the rules... the rule is to park next to the trail.

If you park anywhere else, you take your chances...

Randii

The reality is roads are not a set width. Think of the last time you ever drove down a road that did not have some sort of stuctured turnout. It never happened because turnouts are a reality.

The reality at that spot is, it is a turnout and therefore wider than 50 feet, upon even closer examination, I bet a tape measure says it is in fact very close to 50 feet anyways.

Bottom line, stay on the rock in the area next to the Mechanics pit and if you are cited, fight it and win.

Rubicon Trail Foundation is most interested in details of any cites or court cases regarding this. If you get a ticket, and you feel you were doing your best to comply with the rules, we want to hear about it.

Compiling this kind of evidence is the best way to make change.

Scott

i will share with you guys something i experienced this summer while camped at buck. was at the mechanics area where the outhouses and wooden tables are.camped for a couple of days. jeep was parked about 10 paces from trail on rock slabs. the morning we left i backed the jeep up to my camp to load all my camping gear,ice chest,clothes,etc up so i could leave. people that have seen me on the trail know how much crap i pack for a trip to the con. after i packed all my gear i picked up cig.butts(i don't smoke) small pieces of tinfoil,plastic caps off milk jugs etc. the campsite was pretty clean to begin with-i try to leave a camp site cleaner than i found it if possible.some guys approached my camp wanting to know if i could give them some welding rod-they were camped a couple of hundred feet from me. some of the guys i was with were still packing their rigs so i left camp with my rod container so they could pick which type of rods they wanted(i carry about 10lbs worth for various types of metals). what i didn't do is pull my jeep forward from camp and park it next to the trail first. :homer: when i returned about 10-15 minutes later all my friends rigs were now parked next to the trail and 2 forrest rangers were standing next to my jeep waiting for me to get back. they were very polite and professional. they could have given me a ticket but gave me a warning instead. the people i camped with had already told them my jeep had been legally parked for a couple days and was only parked there to load my camping gear before i was distracted momentarily by some strangers needing some welding rod to repair a vehicle.i got lucky that day-the rangers were very fair with me and i won't make that mistake again. if i ever see them on the trail again and they need food,water or help of any kind i will do what ever it takes to take care of them or any other forrest service personell on the trail. while i am talking about this subject i have a question-i have heard it is o.k. to break the 25 ' rule to unload and load vehicles only-once done vehicle must be parked next to trail to remain legal. the rangers at buck were telling me that that would be frowned upon and and a vehicle should be parked legally next to the trail and all gear should be carried to a distant campsite.i am o.k. with this-but sometimes my back will bother me at the end of the day and hauling all that heavy stuff out of my rig and carrying it couple hundred feet does help it at all. can someone here clarify this one way or another or is it left up to the individual officers disgression?

The operative term here is "officer's disgression". If that were allowed then you would see tons of "cherry stemming" along the trail. I always stay within the easment and pack my crap in. It just goes to show that if you're not an ass to the LEO's then you will most likely get fair treatment (but not always..err poo cleanup 2008)

while i am talking about this subject i have a question-i have heard it is o.k. to break the 25 ' rule to unload and load vehicles only-once done vehicle must be parked next to trail to remain legal. the rangers at buck were telling me that that would be frowned upon and and a vehicle should be parked legally next to the trail and all gear should be carried to a distant campsite.

A couple years ago I watched a guy in my group get a citation for this exact thing. He backed down towards a campsite to unload, he wasn't going to leave the vehicle there.

Even though he was polite, the FPO was an ass and lectured him about how he has done *twice* the resource damage (to bare dirt) since he pulled in and pulled back out. :shaking:

Glad you got a warning.

Regards,
....Mike

Hey Dave, was it a tomboy-ish young female and a bearded guy about her age that you encountered? If so, those two have a history of being firm, but fair, writing big tickets for big offenses (way off trail, big resource damage, etc.) and being reasonable about warning people.

I saw them throw the book at a couple of backpackers in Spider Lake last year who were having a fire without a permit...

Hey Dave, was it a tomboy-ish young female and a bearded guy about her age that you encountered? If so, those two have a history of being firm, but fair, writing big tickets for big offenses (way off trail, big resource damage, etc.) and being reasonable about warning people.

I saw them throw the book at a couple of backpackers in Spider Lake last year who were having a fire without a permit...

i have seen the 2 rangers you are talking about at buck on july 4th weekend and talked to them briefly and they were cool. the 2 rangers involved with my infraction were both female. they were also pretty cool. the ironic part of this incident is that i argued with some of the guys i was with to park their vehicles within 25' of the trail once they unloaded their gear which they did-i didn't want to have our image of off highway vehicles get any more tarnished than it already is-negative publicity is not helping our cause to keep what is left of our trails open.everybody was legally parked the entire time we camped at buck until the morning we left-and then i blew it:homer:.

dave-

you are old and should hire a young guy to carry your gear, lol

ive been told its not ok to drive to a camp spot and unload beacase you will return to pack up thus causing double impact. again, up to the protroler person.

Dave id love bring my little jeep on on of your trips somewhere. recent pic - http://rockzombie4x4.vforums.co.uk/board/pics/topic/15800/action/view_topic/snow-day-trip#reply-9

j

i have heard it is o.k. to break the 25 ' rule to unload and load vehicles only-once done vehicle must be parked next to trail to remain legal.
Station Wagon has this correct, that discretion while loading/unloading is just that: discretion. This is frustrating, but if you park anywhere other than right next to the trail, you take your chances... FWIW, I'll agree with Scott, that this sort of ticket might be beat in court, but Im parking pretty close to the trail, when I pull off... it just ain't worth the risk.

What is frustrating is that we've heard 25 feet on either side, or 50 feet wide... and that's a dimension discussed in a county document not fully released, but the likely enforcement guideline will be the 'one vehicle length' as documented in the Final Rule.

Randii

dave-

you are old and should hire a young guy to carry your gear, lol

ive been told its not ok to drive to a camp spot and unload beacase you will return to pack up thus causing double impact. again, up to the protroler person.

Dave id love bring my little jeep on on of your trips somewhere. recent pic - http://rockzombie4x4.vforums.co.uk/board/pics/topic/15800/action/view_topic/snow-day-trip#reply-9

j

ya got that "old"part right jim L.O.L i'd go whelling with you anytime. nice jeep. i was snow wheeling on iron mountain road 2 weekends ago in my LT1 powered toyota truck.

There needs to be a white caulk line down the middle of the road :D.

There needs to be a white caulk line down the middle of the road :D.

AAAAGH! Don't give them any ideas! :laughing:

AAAAGH! Don't give them any ideas! :laughing:

Can I put reflectors on it?:homer:

Oh don't forget the GUARDRAILS.:laughing:

While we are at it lets pave it.

You'll have to plow it first!

Randii

Hey, thanks everybody for the input. I'll use my best judgement when the time comes.

diane

While we are at it lets pave it.


don youll need it paved for your rig

I have a question. What about when the jeepers jamboree is in there. How do they get away with that?

I have a question. What about when the jeepers jamboree is in there. How do they get away with that?

Get away with what, specifically?

After spending all day at the Water Quality Control board meeting and hearing over and over again “we do not know exactly where the trail is” I have to ask how can one be ticketed for being more than 20ft from the trail if no one knows where the trail is?
On resource damage, when hauling gear to and from camp, do you create more damage dragging your gear to and from camp than two set of tire tracks?
I do not drive off of the trail just asking.

After spending all day at the Water Quality Control board meeting and hearing over and over again “we do not know exactly where the trail is” I have to ask how can one be ticketed for being more than 20ft from the trail if no one knows where the trail is?

Exactly what the concern of the forest service is...two points of view here:

From the FS: "we need to have a deeded easement in order to do enforcement so we know exactly where the trail is"

From the County: "we WILL NOT sign a deeded easement because that will potentially give up the RS 2477 public right to travel"

I hear that the County and the FS have come to a compromise that will work for both, haven't heard what that is yet.

IMO, the FS should first and foremost place the carsonites (red "NO OHV's beyond this point" stakes) in a position to enforce those...I'm having a hard time buying into "we can't enforce without an easement" when they aren't enforcing resource damage or placing the carsonites appropriately and enforcing those, which they DO have the ability to do.


On resource damage, when hauling gear to and from camp, do you create more damage dragging your gear to and from camp than two set of tire tracks?
I do not drive off of the trail just asking.

For some people/rigs yes and for others, no. Depends on rig, driver, etc. Overall, probably less damage with everyone walking than with everyone driving.

Has anyone had any problems with camping along the "old trail" that actually used to go into the water after going over the dam? Technically, you would be parked on the original trail. The trail now goes up higher along the hill, but the trails are there and are not blocked in anyway. This is definately a gray area. Any feedback would be appreciated!

Get away with what, specifically?

Well don't they set up well off the trail for this event. I'm not getting on these guys, hell they do one hell of a job. I was just wondering if they have a special permit to be off the trail.

Has anyone had any problems with camping along the "old trail" that actually used to go into the water after going over the dam?
Yes, but at least one of the tickets was fought successfully in court. This is part of USFS' concern -- they don't want to write tickets that don't stick, but they don't want to fail to enforce (since the anti-OHV folks have sued 'em for THAT, too). Damned if they do, damned if they don't... I understand that it is a tough spot, but I still believe that a quality GPS and a digital camera would make their tickets pretty bullet-proof.

Technically, you would be parked on the original trail. The trail now goes up higher along the hill, but the trails are there and are not blocked in anyway. This is definately a gray area. Any feedback would be appreciated!
Allow me to relate my answer based on the speed limit. Do you speed? Most of us do, even though we know that the speed limit is clearly posted. We know, but we speed anyway, and different people exceed by different amounts, based on their willingness to take risk, their rush, their radar detector, etc. I suggest that you know as exactly where the trail is as possible, and safely park your vehicle just off the side of it when you camp. If you want to stretch that legality (you want to speed), then you take a risk... know that and be willing to be responsible for your actions.

I regularly speed... but with all the attention on the Rubicon, I avoid speeding or stretching the parking rules. I recommend the same.

Randii

Well don't they set up well off the trail for this event. I'm not getting on these guys, hell they do one hell of a job. I was just wondering if they have a special permit to be off the trail.

Gotcha. Yes, they have a USFS use permit that is renewed each year before the Jamboree.

Gotcha. Yes, they have a USFS use permit that is renewed each year before the Jamboree.


Thank You for the info. I will do my best to stay within the rules on the trail. Keeping the trail open is number one. Now if they can just make up there minds as to exactly where the trail is:shaking:.

Randii, thanks for the analogy! But I can't get another speeding ticket, just got one for 85 on the freeway and I have to fight it! When it comes to my leisure time on the trail, I don't want to fight anyone! I am there to relax and since I'm from SoCal, can't fight a ticket up there anyway. My group has camped there for atleast the last ten years, and now we have this restriction. We made the adjustments at Spider to stay legal, and feel that the area I am referring to is open and not blocked in any way. No signage or anything! We intentionally do the trail on the weekdays for less traffic and less hassle finding a legal campspot. But I do not want to get into it with any LEO's, especially the problem one! We have camped there the last two years without incident and I am really just trying to find out if we are getting lucky or we are bound to have issues! Thanks for the help!