Aw shiat! My fairly well built XJ wants more beef on the front axle. I am pretty sure that I have my facts straight, but I want to throw this out to the jeep board.

I have a 97 XJ D30 with the 297 joints, ARB, 4.56s. 35s right now, can't see running bigger than 36 SXs ever. I really would like to have CTM ujoints and to do that I will need manual locking hubs ($760 including warn outers). I will then need to get some warn inners and a complete second set for spares. I've got two extra sets of TJ complete axles assys and spare hubs right now.

So do I continue to throw another $1200 at my D30 or do I sell my D30 for what I can ($1000 with two sets of spare axles, hubs, DOM/heimed steering) and take this money towards another axle.

My options are a D44 HP from a late 70s ford pickup. This would have to be narrowed, stripped of the bracketry and set up for my control arms. This would allow me deeper gearing options, a stronger ring gear, bigger axle tubes, stronger knuckles, hi steer capable and ability to use stock axles at least on one side. I would like to stay 5 on 5.5 as my new dutchman shafts in the rear are drilled for this.

Other option would be a front D60 but the ground clearance and weight penalties aren't attractive when I am running a 36" tire. Then there is the D50 Tera center with D60 outers. But I am not that wealthy.

Which brings me back to the D30. I have the spares. Full spare assemblies only cost about $100 a side. For the cost of building a new axle (~$2K) I can buy 20 spare shaft assemblies, which would last a long time. I have an ARB so I am not worried about breaking the carrier. I haven't seen a single R&P failure on the D30.

Did I just answer my own web wheeler question?

Buy Warn inner shafts, machine your outters for full clips, and then run CTM's. JP magazine just did a right up on this.

Hey Sean,

From what I understand, the manual locking kit for those axles uses BroncoII outers..I hear that they are crap...

I don't know why you need manual locking hubs to run CTM's though...What am I mising?:confused:

Anyways, we are swapping my buddy's 30 out this winter for a 44 front..better R&P, and the ability to add high steer cheaply..well, cheaper than the D30 highsteer knuckles...Also, we are going to build it a little wider when we do...It will cost more in the long run, but it is a stronger axle and I think it will live a lot longer with normal trail abuse...his current 30 had one lower control arm mount ripped off and the upper pass side on twisted...those axles really are crap...

You haven't mentioned whether you've even broken a single 297 in what you have now. I know it's tempting to just replace everything you have, but you have to weigh the cost against the benefit. Personally I would keep carrying spare axle assemblies, and replace when needed. If you start breaking fairly often. then think about upgrading, but if you only break a shaft once every 2 years, is it really worth it to spend all the $$$$???

I'm just keeping what I have. I'm not going to go any bigger than 36's on my TJ either. I have spares, so I'm not really worried about it..


EDIT: Scout, what do the mounts have to do with the axle being crap? :confused: I'm not going to try to start a debate on the merits of the 30, BTW. Just a matter of how you drive, how big you want to go and how much $$$$ you can afford to drop in. ;)

You could build a HP60 for about $3500 if you do most of the work (except for brackets if you're not comfortable with them). That's assuming $1000 for the housing and around $350 for the brackets. Find some deals, weld it, etc and you could be in it for a lot less. A D60 with 36s isn't too bad, just remember where it's at. With alloys and CTMs something will let go in your D30, most likely the R&P and that can get costly.

My vote is for a properly built D44 (alloys and CTMs) or a geared and locked D60.

*EDIT*
With 36s on a D30 and stock shafts/297s you will break often if locked and in high trqaction areas. Changing D30 shafts will get old no matter how many spares you have (been there before).

everything that I have read is that the CTM's because of their lack of bearings, don't stand up to the axle turning all the time on the highway. So if I want CTM's I gotta have the hubs. The 5 on 4.5 Warn kit is supposed to be pretty weak. But the 5 on 5.5 has the bigger Premium hubs, not sure about the outer spline count tho.

$3500 for a front axle is way out of my price range. There is just no way I am willing to invest that into this vehicle. That is 35 extra shaft assemblies (stock) or 10 warn assemblies with CTM.s

I think a lot of it comes down to driving style. Yes, if I spin up my tires after I stop making progress and then I suddenly get traction, something will likely break. Likewise, if I have the wheel turned, locked backing up a hill I can break. Same with trying to climb something undercut. I am pretty easy on things and like Welby pointed out, I have only lost one u joint and that was because I spit out two caps before I realized they were gone. Mind you that I have run Hammers, a bunch of the AZ trails and the Nor Cal trails. I think my answer is keep the 30 on this rig.

As far as the axle brackets Joel, those are easy to replace, RE makes some beefy replacements for pretty cheap.

My reference on this one (hope he chimes in) is MRBLAINE. He is running a 30 on his TJ with 37s and has twisted Warn splines and broken a CTM, all with out taking out his carrier or R&P. And looking at his rig, he is into Full Sacrifice Mode.

SeanP

Originally posted by Welby
EDIT: Scout, what do the mounts have to do with the axle being crap? :confused: I'm not going to try to start a debate on the merits of the 30, BTW. Just a matter of how you drive, how big you want to go and how much $$$$ you can afford to drop in. ;)

Let me rephrase: The mounts on the axle are crap...

Gusset them before they break!;)

Originally posted by SeanP
As far as the axle brackets Joel, those are easy to replace, RE makes some beefy replacements for pretty cheap.



I hear that RE's are crap too..I think MORE has the best ones...I dunno for sure though, we haven't researched this too much yet..

Sean, are you at all worried about the strength of the housing?

Originally posted by JS-Economos
Sean, are you at all worried about the strength of the housing?

No, I am not that concerned. Our XJs weigh about 400-600 pounds less than TJs. If I were running sand dunes and jumping, then I might be concerned. I have seen a couple of trussed D30s out there that look interesting.

SeanP

I am in the same boat you are in. On my YJ I have the Warn 5 on 5.5 kit with a pass. side one piece inner. The outer stubs have 30 splines. I recently just got a good deal on an ARB to put in front and I have a spare set of warn shafts too. Right now I have only broken one 297 joint with my 35x15 TSL's, but I plan on going SOA in the spring and I want to buy 37x13 biggers to put under it. My biggest problem is I want to run 4.88's, but I am affraid with the d30. I will probably end up doing it and keeping the standard joint unless I break them regularly I will switch to the CTM's. I am affraid that I will break the r&p with the CTM's because I am not sure my hubs will be the weak point. I will probably take the chance on the D30 since I have yet to hear of a r&p failure. I also just have the stock 4.0l with a 4-1 t-case. If you have a V8 I would say, start looking for a new axle. You just have to balance the power and the predictable failure points.

I would shy away from the 4.88s in the D30, not enough pinion splines. Agreed that the gearing would be nice on the highway, tho with 37s. 30 splines on the warn outers with that hub conversion sounds nice. Where did you buy it and how much did you spends, if you don't mind me asking.

SeanP

I managed to get my hub kit as part of a much larger trade so I could not tell you what I paid for mine, but I know it was considerably less then what is advertised considering the rest of what I got. I would just call around and see who will give you the best price on the kit. I know Warn raised there prices in it about a year ago. There are some hidden costs with the 5 on 5.5 kit like needing new rims and having to buy CJ rotors and getting them machined. You can buy the one piece pass. shaft too and eliminate the vacuum disco.

I think the best pricing I have seen lately has been on a group buy and it was in the $7-800 range.

As far as the 4.88's I still have not made up my mind. I may just switch from 4.10's to 4.56, but most say that small of a jump is not worth it. Decisions, decisions???

Instead of a Ford dana 44. You could run a late model wagoneer front driver side drop 44. They are only ~62 WMS, so you wouldnt even have to narrow it. If you swap out the knuckles to Ford ones or early wagoneer ones you get flat top 5 on 51/2 knuckles. This I imagine would be cheaper than upgrading your dana 30, give you more options for lockers/ gears and more beef.

Ben

Originally posted by bigdude
You could build a HP60 for about $3500 if you do most of the work (except for brackets if you're not comfortable with them). That's assuming $1000 for the housing and around $350 for the brackets.

Is that how much you paid bigdude?

What did you do that cost so much?
Chevy kunckle and caliper swap, warn lock outs that broke, bearings, seals, new U-joints...... I dont see it add up but I dont have my 60 yet?

The 70s d44 sounds good, but shorten it? why, run full width and pick up a ford 9in rear 5-5.5 all-round.

HAVE FUN!!

Sean,

how many shaft assemblies have you blown this year? Last year? ever?

then do the math and decide if an upgrade makes sense or not.

but, I can't see dropping $ 1300 + into a dana 30 (hub kit, alloy shafts and CTMs ) and still have the other limitations of a 30.

I'd consider alloy inners and outers, but no-one (yet) makes alloy outers for the stock fulltime hubs, and I don't see the cost benefit of just an alloy inner when I can get complete stock replacement assemblies (non ABS) for $100 delivered to my door.


on your comment:

I would shy away from the 4.88s in the D30, not enough pinion splines

how many dana 30 4.88 r&p failures have you witnessed, or even heard about? sure it sounds reasonable, especially when you look at how small everything is, but in practice how many of these are failing?

fwiw mine is holding up fine.

Originally posted by jeepboyben
Instead of a Ford dana 44. You could run a late model wagoneer front driver side drop 44. They are only ~62 WMS, so you wouldnt even have to narrow it. If you swap out the knuckles to Ford ones or early wagoneer ones you get flat top 5 on 51/2 knuckles. This I imagine would be cheaper than upgrading your dana 30, give you more options for lockers/ gears and more beef.

Ben


Yes, no or maybe of the expense of setting up a Waggy d44.

The hp d30 in his XJ is only 15-20% weaker then a lp d44 because of how the ring gear is driven. Plus the axle shafts are still not high alloy and the hubs are not as strong even if you switch to Ford ones. As far as price the axle will cost around $200, ford outers and hubs $100, XJ brackets $300, Flat top knuckles $150 and having to match his gear ratio in the rear $200. Now he is up to $950 if he can do all the work himself and he still has the same size and strength shafts as a stock TJ. I am not saying that the swap is not worth it I am just saying that it cost more then you think. You do get advantages though because the high stear is now easier and if you go over a 4.56 gear ratio you do get a higher r&p engagement surface.

If I had it to do it all over again I would have gone d60 or a 9"-60 hybrid, but since I have money invested in a d30 it didn't pay to go to the d44. I figure one day I will build my own 9-60 hybrid and some one will get a hell of a d30 for a good price. Just my $.02.

Originally posted by Dan-H
Sean,

how many shaft assemblies have you blown this year? Last year? ever?

then do the math and decide if an upgrade makes sense or not.

but, I can't see dropping $ 1300 + into a dana 30 (hub kit, alloy shafts and CTMs ) and still have the other limitations of a 30.

I'd consider alloy inners and outers, but no-one (yet) makes alloy outers for the stock fulltime hubs, and I don't see the cost benefit of just an alloy inner when I can get complete stock replacement assemblies (non ABS) for $100 delivered to my door.


fwiw mine is holding up fine.

Yep, right there with you Dan. I have only gone thru one assembly and that was because I didn't snap ring the caps and they walked out. With all the talk about CTM's and 60s, maybe I am thinking that I have been pushing my luck so far. I really do have a "smart" driving style and don't push it once I cease forward motion. I guess I just keep driving on what I got and carry spares.

SeanP

Originally posted by SeanP


I really do have a "smart" driving style and don't push it once I cease forward motion.

SeanP

:rolleyes:





:flipoff2:




Jes

Originally posted by Scout Dude
Hey Sean,

From what I understand, the manual locking kit for those axles uses BroncoII outers..I hear that they are crap...


You heard wrong then.

Warn spent alot of time going through these hubs and perfecting the design. There are a number of us running them down here and they have proven to live quite nicely on some serious trails. The small hub makes a great fuse if you are going to stay in the 35" tire range. Above that, then the 5 on 5.5 hub becomes the choice.

Originally posted by Dan-H

how many dana 30 4.88 r&p failures have you witnessed, or even heard about? sure it sounds reasonable, especially when you look at how small everything is, but in practice how many of these are failing?

fwiw mine is holding up fine.



Just trashed mine two weekends ago, shafts and ujoints are fine.

Originally posted by Beast40
Just trashed mine two weekends ago, shafts and ujoints are fine.

details?

Originally posted by Dan-H


details?


Loud bang, lots of gear oil and a pile of metal at the bottom of my diff.

The bang actually happened in my driveway after a hard day of wheeling. It was leaking slighly after the run but I figured it was the seal and then while pulling into my driveway it gave out.

Here is my simple answer: "Drive it like you own it"
You know that you have to drive that rig home so don't be an ass and try to prove anything. Remember that the poeple with the big mouths are the people that rode up there in someones elses rig. Sh!t happens and you will break some parts on it sometime I am sure of that but most of the time it doesn't ruin the weekend or anything so just be prepaired.
As to busting a ring gear or carrier I have broke both on my old 30 but it was low pinion and was due to rideing the brakes to get the LS to lock up.
The waggy 44 would be pretty easy to do like someone else sugested. I know how to put one of those together pretty cheap or at least close to what it would cose to due the locking hubs on the 30. One question I never got answered was how about useing the locking hub and outters off a 94-up dodge 1500?
As to makeing a 60 it is real easy to wrap up $3500 into one of those...I know

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ


Is that how much you paid bigdude?

What did you do that cost so much?


$1K Housing/Shafts/Knuckles/bearing hubs
$350 5.13 Reverse Rotation R&P/Rebuild kit
$500 Detroit
$300 Brakes/Bearings
$100 U-Joints
$200 Cross-over steering/Draglink
$150 R&P set-up
$120 Locking hubs
$100 Spare set of inners and outers from a friend

That's $2800 to get it under my rig (YJ) with all work done by me. I figured $300 for brackets, $200 for narrow, and a couple hundred for welding brackets if he couldn't do it himself. I just got sick of waiting for an axle to fall into my lap so I bought one. If you got a completely rebuilt HP60/Detroit/Steering for a lot less my hats off to you.

Originally posted by bigdude


$1K Housing/Shafts/Knuckles/bearing hubs
$350 5.13 Reverse Rotation R&P/Rebuild kit
$500 Detroit
$300 Brakes/Bearings
$100 U-Joints
$200 Cross-over steering/Draglink
$150 R&P set-up
$120 Locking hubs
$100 Spare set of inners and outers from a friend

That's $2800 to get it under my rig (YJ) with all work done by me. I figured $300 for brackets, $200 for narrow, and a couple hundred for welding brackets if he couldn't do it himself. I just got sick of waiting for an axle to fall into my lap so I bought one. If you got a completely rebuilt HP60/Detroit/Steering for a lot less my hats off to you.

Yeah, that;s about what I was figuring, maybe a little less for the junk yard 60. Still, that's a lot of friggin money in my book. Big Dude are you married? I would guess no!:flipoff2:

SeanP

Wise man once said run what you got. Sounds like for your plans wheeling style and tire size you could get away with and benefit from the 30's clearance and weight with spares. Maybe save a little and get a junkyard 44 throw a locker and new R&P in it and what not later. If that part of the rig is not giving you problems right now use your pocket change on other parts of the jeep.

Originally posted by MOVEASIDE
Wise man once said run what you got.

:confused: :p :flipoff2:

I gotta agree with the others Sean. If you're not blowing joints and shafts everytime you put it in 4wd, just save the money and keep spares with you. I asked Beast40 earlier about his carnage because I thought he was running aftermarket shafts and joints, but his were bone-stock. The 4.88 RP blew before they did.:eek:

BTW, Sean, did you get my PM?

Originally posted by SeanP


Big Dude are you married? I would guess no!:flipoff2:

SeanP

Graduated college a year ago with a chemical engineering degree :D Got a good job. Live with my girlfriend and she splits the bills with me. I have a little surplus cash once and a while and I decide how to spend it ;)

Originally posted by SeanP
everything that I have read is that the CTM's because of their lack of bearings, don't stand up to the axle turning all the time on the highway. So if I want CTM's I gotta have the hubs. The 5 on 4.5 Warn kit is supposed to be pretty weak. But the 5 on 5.5 has the bigger Premium hubs, not sure about the outer spline count tho.

Hi Sean. The CTM's have a bearing. It's just not conventional to a u-joint. To date, they have not been a problem and were well tested in a few daily drivers. You don't have to have hubs to run them. That myth was started, near as I can tell, by JDN on JU claiming to have literature from Jack stating as such. Unfortunately for him, I had the same literature and called him on it. Unfortunately for Jack, no one remembers the end of the arguement, just some jerk stating they are not for daily drivers.

$3500 for a front axle is way out of my price range. There is just no way I am willing to invest that into this vehicle. That is 35 extra shaft assemblies (stock) or 10 warn assemblies with CTM.s

I think a lot of it comes down to driving style. Yes, if I spin up my tires after I stop making progress and then I suddenly get traction, something will likely break. Likewise, if I have the wheel turned, locked backing up a hill I can break. Same with trying to climb something undercut. I am pretty easy on things and like Welby pointed out, I have only lost one u joint and that was because I spit out two caps before I realized they were gone. Mind you that I have run Hammers, a bunch of the AZ trails and the Nor Cal trails. I think my answer is keep the 30 on this rig.

You saw our group and know what we do and how often we do it. A few points of commonality are the 4.5 hub conversion, Warn inners and outers and stock Spicer joints in the 30. Only a couple have the CTM's and only one because he needs them as you witnessed by seeing a broken CTM. It's also a matter of style as you stated. We all know we have small front axles, yet we still manage to play fairly hard and fairly often.




As far as the axle brackets Joel, those are easy to replace, RE makes some beefy replacements for pretty cheap.

I reinforce these all the time for folks. The easiest way is to cut the sides off of a junk axle and slap them along side the existing bracket and go to town with the welder. Use a grade 8 9/16's fine thread bolt through the control arm and never look back. I have made templates and cut plates from 8 gauge P&O before, but it's fairly time consuming for the end result. I also run a small skid in front that ties the two sides together and also welds to the tube.


My reference on this one (hope he chimes in) is MRBLAINE. He is running a 30 on his TJ with 37s and has twisted Warn splines and broken a CTM, all with out taking out his carrier or R&P. And looking at his rig, he is into Full Sacrifice Mode.

SeanP

I need to clarify a few things here. My rig is the green one on 37's, Warn inners and outers with CTM's in a HP 44 from South America. I also have the WJ knuckles for the higher steer with knuckle to knuckle tie rod and the dual piston calipers, with the top of the knuckle track bar relocation. I only have a few dents, folded fenders and miles of rock rash. Garry's looks like he bought it as a salvaged theft recovery and then proceeded to abuse it.

Garry has the 30 in his green one with the stuff you mentioned.

On mine, I would not do the 44 again. Too much work for the money. For the same money you can do what we are currently doing to Garry's. That is a HP 9 with the small housing and the WJ knuckles with the big brakes and the higher steer.

One thing I have not seen anyone mention is that you will have to be wider WMS to WMS if you go with anything other than the 44 or the 30. The pumpkins are too big to get the coil spring perch in there without scooting the inner knuckle outwards.

Also the sheetmetal housing of the 9 is very easy to fabricate to. Even a hack like me can manage to get a bracket welded to it.

Not a problem with most rigs, but may require some serious sheet metal removal or bumpstopping on an XJ. Neither here nor there, just some trivia.

Back to your original question. I did mine as part of a complete suspension re-do and some very nice friends helped me with some parts. Were it not for that I would still be very happily running the 30.

Garry is just too mean to stuff and you saw the results of that. The R & P were just fine after that little incident. For the mortals among us, we get by just fine with the 30 out there and if you have only broken the small quantity of stuff you claim, just grab the conversion, run stock Spicers until you start breaking them and have fun. We do it all the time. FWIW, in a total of 150 plus trips over all the Hammers with the exception of upper Big Johnson, our group has only broken one of the small manual hubs.

I am also fairly certain that the full throttle slam into a canyon wall on Jack didn't do it any good. Happens when you drive out of a rollover and the left front comes to a complete stop when it meets the wall. Later on that day on Sledge the u-joint blew and took out the hub in the process.

That was a fairly typical day for us also, Jack in the morning and Sledge in the afternoon.

One other thing of note- you mentioned a tire size of 36 and a brand being non MT/R. The 30 will live just fine with your driving style and those tires from what I have seen. If you do go to 37 MT/R's, you may want to re-think a tad. There is a traction difference and on the rocks will make a difference.

thanks for chiming in Blaine. I did have you confused with gary, your rig had the sweet flat bottom, and ummmm, didn't look quite like a theft recovery.

Are you the one who got the right hand drive hi-steer knuckles for the D30? I actually have thought about the HP 9 hybrid in the front. Where are you getting your housing and thrid from? Will the axle tubes mate up with the WJ knuckles nicely? If so, this might be a nice alternative.

If the CTMs do alright in a full time 4WD (non-maunal hubs) then the only benefit for the warn hub kit is the ability to unlock a hub in case of axle/ujoint breakage and to still drive off the trail, rather than having to fix it right there. For the money, I would jsut rather break a few more ujoints/axles and see how you 9" project comes along. If you have a write up of this and the WJ knuckle/steering I would be interested in seeing it. I already have the over the knuckle steering and relocated my trackbar/sway bar link.

THanks

SeanP

The real benifit of the Warn kit is the when you get the CTM's the hub is now failure point, at least in thoery. I still think it is possible to break a r&p before the hub goes if you get into the right position. Also, I think you will be throwing money away unless you invest in some high alloy shafts even if you don't get the hubs. Just my .02.

Originally posted by DE Jeeper
The real benifit of the Warn kit is the when you get the CTM's the hub is now failure point, at least in thoery. I still think it is possible to break a r&p before the hub goes if you get into the right position.

We broke a 9" R&P in ERoCC before our superwinch locking hubs let go (44 outers).

Originally posted by SeanP
thanks for chiming in Blaine. I did have you confused with gary, your rig had the sweet flat bottom, and ummmm, didn't look quite like a theft recovery.

That's Mr. Nice Aluminum Flat Bottom to you. :D

Not quite like a theft recovery, but still a few more dents than I would like.

Are you the one who got the right hand drive hi-steer knuckles for the D30? I actually have thought about the HP 9 hybrid in the front. Where are you getting your housing and thrid from? Will the axle tubes mate up with the WJ knuckles nicely? If so, this might be a nice alternative.

Yes, I run the higher steer WJ knuckles on my rig. We are doing the same on Garry's 9" with a sleeve that adapts the 30 inner knuckle onto or into the tube. Depends on your perspective.

John Currie is a friend of mine and I get all my Ford 9 parts from him.

If the CTMs do alright in a full time 4WD (non-maunal hubs) then the only benefit for the warn hub kit is the ability to unlock a hub in case of axle/ujoint breakage and to still drive off the trail, rather than having to fix it right there. For the money, I would jsut rather break a few more ujoints/axles and see how you 9" project comes along. If you have a write up of this and the WJ knuckle/steering I would be interested in seeing it. I already have the over the knuckle steering and relocated my trackbar/sway bar link.

THanks

SeanP

Sean, as you well know, if you try to make it out of most of the Hammers or any similar trails in 3 wheel, you are just begging for more carnage. The only benefit for us is the ability to run stronger axles. I could care less about the lock and unlock ability with the exception of running back to camp with a bent front driveshaft.

I suck at write-ups and am only slightly less capable with a camera. I do have a few pics that can be found here that my wife took.

http://www.justaddrocks.com/cbj.htm

SeanP,
With the trails we ran (JP mag./Cherokee Bash/Sept.issue) Be happy with the performance of your 30!
Hell, the night before we ran Sledgehammer and then Outer limits, I was looking at that guys BROKEN CTM and twisted Warn inner shaft from running Outer Limits and thinking HOO-E-VAY!
My snap-ringed --260's--HELD UP! STYLE! BABY, STYLE!(and good spotters/LUCK)LOL.Andy NEEDS a 44 because of his wheeling Style.LOL .. Superior IS-(when?) coming out with Alloy outers for the STOCK hubs.....The OX joint is cheaper,But no one knows if its better/worse than the CTM__ YET,only time and breakage will tell.---
So,If you go to a 44 or 9" keep me in mind for your spare 297 axles...I'm supposed to need them.....And someday
I should upgrade....

Originally posted by Recluse
SeanP,
With the trails we ran (JP mag./Cherokee Bash/Sept.issue) Be happy with the performance of your 30!
Hell, the night before we ran Sledgehammer and then Outer limits, I was looking at that guys BROKEN CTM and twisted Warn inner shaft from running Outer Limits and thinking HOO-E-VAY!

I ofttimes think the same thing and then reality steps in, slaps me upside the head and tells me that only a handful out there have the wherewithal to actually follow that jeep. I know that I won't most of the time on the optional stuff. Anyone can drive down the middle of the trail.

My snap-ringed --260's--HELD UP! STYLE! BABY, STYLE!(and good spotters/LUCK)LOL.Andy NEEDS a 44 because of his wheeling Style.LOL .. Superior IS-(when?) coming out with Alloy outers for the STOCK hubs.....The OX joint is cheaper,But no one knows if its better/worse than the CTM__ YET,only time and breakage will tell.---
So,If you go to a 44 or 9" keep me in mind for your spare 297 axles...I'm supposed to need them.....And someday
I should upgrade....

I don't know that the OX joints are cheaper. They are listed at 159 right now, but until someone actually buys a set and installs them, we don't know.

You do bring up an interesting point and that is one of averages. In our group, we have one guy that does JV regularly and does so on a stock front end on a TJ with 36's and now 37's. Never bothers him that draglinks are supposed to bend out there and stock axles fail on a regular basis. Another friend takes one trip over WB and manages to tally up over 3000 dollars worth of damage without ever getting on the throttle or rolling it.

And then you have Garry. Most passengers either wind up walking or riding with someone else. Very few can hang with the lines he takes. Rarely on the throttle, but he has a put a few tire tracks in places that were the first ones there.

You can hold any of those up as an example to build your specs to. I try to land somewhere in the middle. I am not as lucky as the buddy with the stock front axle, as unlucky as my friend with all the damage, or as hardcore as Garry. I never broke a Spicer out there in the Warns so I don't really need the CTM's. I also never broke a small hub, so I don't really need the Premium hubs or the bigger bolt circle. I also ran every trail out there multiples of times on 35's, so I don't really need the 37's.

What I do need is something to tinker with and the Jeep fulfills that need quite nicely. Many in the group are in that middle range that seems to be a nice balance of durability and price. Works well 98 percent of the time and doesn't quite bankrupt the owner.

mrblaine - VERY well put.

- Chris

Originally posted by bigdude


We broke a 9" R&P in ERoCC before our superwinch locking hubs let go (44 outers).


Just curious
Did the pinon snap at the bearing? or was this a hand grenade job?

I have the d30 in the front of my TJ. Warn 5x5.5 hub conversion, 4.56, ARB, Atlas 4.3, hub fuses, 37" MTR (previously 36" SX). Ultimate polished turd, I know that. :D

Until last Sunday I had racked up a total of two broken ujoints in four years of arguable abuse. Last Sunday I had an inner shaft break, taking out the ARB. I changed ujoints a few months back an noticed a slight twisting of the splines on the inners and should have swapped them out at that time.

Take it for what it's worth but for weight and clearance issues I can say that I have no problem with how the axle has held up over the years. The argument will go both ways.

I have the same dilemma as SeanP.
I have a 88 XJ w/ a Dana 30 from a 97 XJ with stock shafts and 297x u-joints, Lockright, 3.73(yeah, I know) and 35x12.5 MT/R's. This has worked great for me until today when I tried to climb a rocky ledge that I had climbed a few times before and boom. This is my daily driver, I wheel pretty hard, I do plan on keeping this axle for a while and future plans are a truss, 4.88's and an OX or ARB. I am not completely sold on the Warn lock-out hub conversion, too much $$. Looking for inners, outers and stronger u-joints
It seems the u-joint snapped then a ear half way tore off the outer shaft, I had to use a sawzall to cut the rest of the ear off so I could limp off the trail.

After reading this thread I think you guys convinced me just to buy 2 sets of spares and save the $$. And maybe start taking a floor jack with me on the trail, that Hi-Lift is too unstable :D

http://www.fototime.com/6AF7B23BE16C735/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/45BD4152DB7B76A/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/801950CD452EB85/standard.jpg

Sean, i agree with sticking with the D30.

FWIW..i'v been running 33's,4:56's and lockers F&R with 260 joints and have never broken. I didnt have a set of 297 shafts till after i built the front axle, they are my spares till the 260 joints fail or wear.

I'v run some of the harder trails at Paragon and i have a very similar driving style...which i think is key to making the 30 last.

I have a bud who's about to swap a 44 front axle in and i'll get his Warn 5 on 4.5 hubs from him, otherwise i wouldnt spend the 7-800 on it.

Well sometimes the Warn axles are the weakest part even with regular 297 joints. (BTW, hub fuses don't work) Here is what happened to me on M-Trail with the wheels straight and climbing. I went another 10 feat before anyone saw I broke the shaft so I wasn't stuck and binding it up. I guess it was a freak thing. If you look carefully the caps and clips are still on the joint and the one side is still in the broken shaft.

The kicker was that Warn was't going to warrentee the shaft until Jim over at Quadratec(where I bout the hub kit) sent them the pic showing the shaft failure not the u-joint. I still think I will keep the d30 and with my extra set of shafts it should keep me going until I can afford the 38.5's and front 60.

http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/albums/album96/My_high_alloy_shaft_u_27_97_u_joint_failure.sized. jpg

A pic from the exit of Voodoo last Sun, just for fun.
http://www.delawareja.com/gallery/albums/album96/DSC00059.sized.jpg

Grenaded a HP30 R+P on Saturday, thats two in two weeks :D when does the fun end.

Originally posted by Beast40
Grenaded a HP30 R+P on Saturday, thats two in two weeks :D when does the fun end.

Details? I looked at your website, looks like you are running the 4.88s. Where did the R&P fail? on the pinion teeth or ring gear? Or was it so nuked that you can't tell. Were you agressviley getting it or what?

SeanP

http://www.beast40.com/JeepPictures/j382.jpg

Oh yeah, your the guy with the twine limiting straps. Ummm,...nevermind

Nice Twine!

Originally posted by SeanP


Oh yeah, your the guy with the twine limiting straps. Ummm,...nevermind

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :D

Originally posted by SeanP


Oh yeah, your the guy with the twine limiting straps. Ummm,...nevermind




:flipoff2: You only wish you had the same Flex problem as me:flipoff2:

http://www.beast40.com/JeepPictures/j371.jpg



To answer the question, the pinion twisted in two, lost numerous teeth off the ring and the pinion and the pinion bearing looks like ground coffee. I think its time for some tons :D

Originally posted by Beast40

To answer the question, the pinion twisted in two, lost numerous teeth off the ring and the pinion and the pinion bearing looks like ground coffee. I think its time for some tons :D

Who's gears are you running? Genuine's? I have heard this is a constant problem their gears.

Originally posted by TDW
I have the d30 in the front of my TJ. Warn 5x5.5 hub conversion, 4.56, ARB, Atlas 4.3, hub fuses, 37" MTR (previously 36" SX). Ultimate polished turd, I know that. :D

Until last Sunday I had racked up a total of two broken ujoints in four years of arguable abuse. Last Sunday I had an inner shaft break, taking out the ARB. I changed ujoints a few months back an noticed a slight twisting of the splines on the inners and should have swapped them out at that time.

Take it for what it's worth but for weight and clearance issues I can say that I have no problem with how the axle has held up over the years. The argument will go both ways.

You need to high- clearance that bad boy!:D

Originally posted by Beast40

:flipoff2: You only wish you had the same Flex problem as me:flipoff2:

Ramp kings don't rule in comps or on the trail, sorry to bust your bubble :shaking: Ramp kings do rule on JU though :laughing:

Originally posted by bigdude


Ramp kings don't rule in comps or on the trail, sorry to bust your bubble :shaking: Ramp kings do rule on JU though :laughing:



Since when is my jeep a ramp king? Thats the same thing people were saying as they watched me crawl up Lower 2 like it was a paved highway, haters. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by CHOKEu


You need to high- clearance that bad boy!:D

I think that is about all that can be done :D I guess I could paint my diff cover all purdy like yours :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Beast40

:flipoff2: You only wish you had the same Flex problem as me:flipoff2:

Would you please (or are you able to) explain to me the benefits of having the spring 8" unseated in the rear?

What were the specs; bl, carrier and pinion preload, what type of carrier, gear brand, any pattern pics, ect - if you toasted two that quickly there has got to be something wrong or you just drive like ya stole it! :flipoff2:

Matt


Originally posted by Beast40
Grenaded a HP30 R+P on Saturday, thats two in two weeks :D when does the fun end.

Originally posted by wanderingwillys
What were the specs; bl, carrier and pinion preload, what type of carrier, gear brand, any pattern pics, ect - if you toasted two that quickly there has got to be something wrong or you just drive like ya stole it! :flipoff2:

Matt




The first one he blew was on stock shafts and joints, so he loaded those into a new HP XJ 30 w/ 4.88s on locked 37s. He told me he drove down the road about a mile and the RP spit... btw, same stock shafts and joints that the first RP blew on.:eek: :eek:

I'm not sure what brand of gears he had though.

Originally posted by Beast40

Since when is my jeep a ramp king? Thats the same thing people were saying as they watched me crawl up Lower 2 like it was a paved highway, haters. :flipoff2:


I've seen IFS Toyotas walk Lower 2 before :rolleyes: I've walked it in a springunder YJ :rolleyes: If you think that's the hardest wheeling and a good judge of a rig your a moron. I bet the guys on JU think it's the toughest stuff around :laughing:


Let's see your junk at an event???? Or are you just a big talking poser :laughing: ramp boy :laughing:


Why not answer that other question poser?? The one about why unseating a coil is soooooo good :laughing:

hey beast40 whats the point of triangulating your uppers and running limiting straps? With RE's Long Arm kit you have pretty much even flex. I think you did alot of that work for nothing. Way too much flex in the rear IMO.

You might want to get some real limiting straps..and try not to make a fool of yourself on here, as your rep stays for a long time.

Not bashing on you, just stating an opinion. :D

dang this thread has gone on forever. All I wanted to know was whether y'all thought the warn hub conversion might be worth the effort. Sheesh!:flipoff2:

ok, i went down the same road you are on when i had my TJ... and unfortunately i dove off into the warn hub conversion and ctm's... man its not worth it... the hub conversion looks cheap..dinky plastic hubs the ctm's were awesome, before i upgraded to the hub conversion and ctm's i was breaking 297's and shafts with my 35" MTR's... and everytime i broke a joint, it took out my bottom ball joint...not fun... so, i look back now and i wish i would have got a dana 44 or a 60.. you can get a driverside HP 60 and still have nice clearance... get a rear 60 as well and run full width..it will be cheaper in the end...trust me....
by the way, i have a nice HP 60 driverside drop i will sale you for $1000 bucks...
seriously, if you wheel at all, change out the 30, the balljoints and housing yokes are weak..........

Originally posted by bigdude



I've seen IFS Toyotas walk Lower 2 before :rolleyes: I've walked it in a springunder YJ :rolleyes: If you think that's the hardest wheeling and a good judge of a rig your a moron. I bet the guys on JU think it's the toughest stuff around :laughing:


Let's see your junk at an event???? Or are you just a big talking poser :laughing: ramp boy :laughing:


Why not answer that other question poser?? The one about why unseating a coil is soooooo good :laughing:


I have no intentions of competing with my jeep and am not building it to do so. Never said that never will. :rolleyes: My coil does not fall out of the spring perch more then a inch. It did, I fixed it with some nylon rope as a temp solution, it works fine and keeps my coils in the buckets.

As for lower 2, once again I never said it was the hardest trail, but it is far from a ramp. :rolleyes:

Your not the brightest guy huh? Or do you always put words in people's mouths in order to sound hardcore? Hater.

Originally posted by Wish4YJ
hey beast40 whats the point of triangulating your uppers and running limiting straps? With RE's Long Arm kit you have pretty much even flex. I think you did alot of that work for nothing. Way too much flex in the rear IMO.

You might want to get some real limiting straps..and try not to make a fool of yourself on here, as your rep stays for a long time.

Not bashing on you, just stating an opinion. :D


When I moved my axle back for more wheelbase, the trac bar was going to bind if I did not move the frame mount, instead I triangulated the whole thing. I was putting new brackets on the 9" housing I got and the work was not too much more then doing the stock brackets.

Originally posted by Beast40



I have no intentions of competing with my jeep

I fixed it with some nylon rope

As for lower 2, once again I never said it was the hardest trail, but it is far from a ramp.


Your not the brightest guy huh? Or do you always put words in people's mouths in order to sound hardcore? Hater.

My point is that you're just another turkey who thinks he wheels superb and his rig is the shit. Calling people haters just shows your arrogant about your junk. :rolleyes: I called you out to a comp, you pussed, 'nough said.

I am a hater, I hate posers.


*nylon rope limiting straps :laughing:

*Brightest guy- What's your education?? (Mine can be summed up in 3 letters ChE)


Keep posing :flipoff2:

Originally posted by bigdude


3 letters ChE


:flipoff2:

Speaking of.... got any metalic sodium


:D

Im behind brad......His rig maybe have too much flex but i bet more than one of u have done sometime to fix a small problem till u can either figure out what u wanan do or whatever.

As for walking up lower 2 in a IFS yota i doubt that maybe if it hadnt rained in a yr.....i was there when it rainned for like week straight. Jody in a Yj with 38's took along time to get up it.

Who cares if he doesnt have a d60 front right now god lord...i think he just got some bad gears the 1st set i can understand why but his shit isnt a ramp rig or whatever yall called it....he just has some idea's most ppl are afraid to try.

:flipoff2: and get off brad's back about it. I bet most of yall dont even drive ur rigs everday.

Will

Originally posted by NCxj18
Im behind brad......His rig maybe have too much flex but i bet more than one of u have done sometime to fix a small problem till u can either figure out what u wanan do or whatever.

As for walking up lower 2 in a IFS yota i doubt that maybe if it hadnt rained in a yr.....i was there when it rainned for like week straight. Jody in a Yj with 38's took along time to get up it.

Who cares if he doesnt have a d60 front right now god lord...i think he just got some bad gears the 1st set i can understand why but his shit isnt a ramp rig or whatever yall called it....he just has some idea's most ppl are afraid to try.

:flipoff2: and get off brad's back about it. I bet most of yall dont even drive ur rigs everday.

Will

Jesus, spit his balls out already :laughing:


Don't have to drive my rig everyday, sorry :D Ideas others are afraid to try :confused: Please. He put on a bolt-on lift kit and changed it a little :eek: It was dry when the IFS walked it, I'll give you that.

Originally posted by bigdude


My point is that you're just another turkey who thinks he wheels superb and his rig is the shit.



Find anywhere, anyplace where I have said anything remotely close to that and I'll shut up. Once again your putting words in my mouth.

AND, since when does somebody have to enter competitions to be able to wheel? You don't have much of a comp rig, YJs like that are a dime a dozen at public trails, but since you enter comps your rig is better????????:rolleyes: Sounds like someone is a bit egotistical. Hows that rock pile in FL doing anyways?

hey beast, you still interested in that front 60.... hadnt heard back from ya...

Originally posted by Beast40

AND, since when does somebody have to enter competitions to be able to wheel? You don't have much of a comp rig, YJs like that are a dime a dozen at public trails, but since you enter comps your rig is better????????:rolleyes: Sounds like someone is a bit egotistical. Hows that rock pile in FL doing anyways?

No one has to enter a comp to wheel. However, if you want to test the limits of your vehicle, seeing what it can do and how much punishment it can take, that's what a comp is for. You will not find harder wheeling in the nation than what people set up at comps.

I will sum up my thoughts with this.....

You seemed to think that your flex made your rig better. I found that you indicated this with your "You wish you had the same flex problem" comment. My point is that flex is great for a ramp & JU. It's not needed in excess in comps OR on trails. You counter that with saying you walked lower two, trying to show your rig is a trail rig and not just a ramp king. You mentioned lower 2 probably because it is the hardest stuff you've wheeled. My counter to that is- lower 2 is not very hard compared to what you will see in a competition. Thus, you haven't tested your rig and can't say that you benefit from all that rear flex. I then invited you to compete so that you could see what your rig could take. Of course I throw in some pokes in the ribs and a few laughs at your "limiting straps ( :laughing: )". Trust me it may look cool to have a 3000+ on a ramp :rolleyes:, but it will only hurt you when you actually get into some wicked stuff (if not controlled or balanced). If you don't believe me on that point then you truly have little tough wheeling experience. I call you a poser because you're too chicken to take on tough terrain. If you "walked" the hardest thing you've wheeled then why not try something harder (like a comp)???? What, no sack???? :flipoff2:


TJs are a dime a doze, sorry to break it to you :eek:

Originally posted by bigdude


No one has to enter a comp to wheel. However, if you want to test the limits of your vehicle, seeing what it can do and how much punishment it can take, that's what a comp is for. You will not find harder wheeling in the nation than what people set up at comps.

I will sum up my thoughts with this.....

You seemed to think that your flex made your rig better. I found that you indicated this with your "You wish you had the same flex problem" comment. My point is that flex is great for a ramp & JU. It's not needed in excess in comps OR on trails. You counter that with saying you walked lower two, trying to show your rig is a trail rig and not just a ramp king. You mentioned lower 2 probably because it is the hardest stuff you've wheeled. My counter to that is- lower 2 is not very hard compared to what you will see in a competition. Thus, you haven't tested your rig and can't say that you benefit from all that rear flex. I then invited you to compete so that you could see what your rig could take. Of course I throw in some pokes in the ribs and a few laughs at your "limiting straps ( :laughing: )". Trust me it may look cool to have a 3000+ on a ramp :rolleyes:, but it will only hurt you when you actually get into some wicked stuff (if not controlled or balanced). If you don't believe me on that point then you truly have little tough wheeling experience. I call you a poser because you're too chicken to take on tough terrain. If you "walked" the hardest thing you've wheeled then why not try something harder (like a comp)???? What, no sack???? :flipoff2:


TJs are a dime a doze, sorry to break it to you :eek:

"You seemed to think that your flex made your rig better. " Assumption #1


"You mentioned lower 2 probably because it is the hardest stuff you've wheeled. " Assumption #2


So basically you have assumed everything about me and my jeep. Nothing was stated but you and your wisdom managed to conjure up what I think. At some point you'll understand that my jeep does not flex like that in the rear anymore and the rear spring barely unseats in its current form. Maybe you don't get that because I actually stated it.

"You wish you had the same flex problem" Was a joking come back to the twine post. You and your insecurities then went on to bash me and my jeep.

I wheel my jeep hard and when I don't make an obstacle or trail, I put it right back in the garage and make changes. Your right I need to find bigger and badder places to wheel, all it takes for me is time. Where do you recommend? Where do you take your jeep?



Edit: I'm done with this conversation.

Originally posted by rockbiter
i have a nice HP 60 driverside drop i will sale you for $1000 bucks...
seriously, if you wheel at all, change out the 30, the balljoints and housing yokes are weak..........

How far are you from Tucson arizona? PM me or something...

Originally posted by SeanP
everything that I have read is that the CTM's because of their lack of bearings, don't stand up to the axle turning all the time on the highway. So if I want CTM's I gotta have the hubs.

SeanP


i aint gonna read this entire thread but im sure someone had to of allready said it.... bullshat your caps dont go spinning around down the road, if you keep the cap greased you should not have a problem...... the main reason people say you need the hub is so you can get the warn alloy stub, which is NOT available for your sealed bearing set up.

Originally posted by Beast40
Your right I need to find bigger and badder places to wheel, all it takes for me is time. Where do you recommend? Where do you take your jeep?

That's what I'm talking about :beer:

I recommend Jellico, TN for the Eastern Rockcrawling Championship. The next event is only 1 week away. It's only $75 to enter.

I take my Jeep to my private pile, Tellico (this Saturday), some new place North of Tellico called "Rattlerock" this Sunday, it will be at ERoCC in 1 week competing. I also run the Badlands in Attica, IN during the winter when I visit family.

bigdude.. you need to move to TN or NC!! :D You seem to spend all your free time here and in TN anyway!

Beast40... join the Carolina Trailblazers... oldest 4x4 club in NC, and do everything from Uwharrie to some trails in TN that'll make you :eek: when ya see 'em. Great buncha people, too.

As much as I'd love to enter a comp... I just don't have the cash to fix what I'm gonna break... And I have to drive home from whatever trails I run right now, so that keeps me off the D5 trails.

Originally posted by Eskimo
bigdude.. you need to move to TN or NC!! :D You seem to spend all your free time here and in TN anyway!

No shit!!! I'm working on it.....

I dont know about yall but i sure as hell dont have to enter a comp. to have fun wheeling. sure i like watching it and reading it.

I'm with eskimo, i got to drive this and being 19, i dont wanna break alot. Well its kind of funny u say tellico isnt hard but parts of it are ranked up there in the world. Yall can think im a web wheeler or whatever and i am to a point.

If brad wants to wheel wherever let him damn, let him find out what he did and didnt need to do. as he stated he fixed something that was causing problems. But flame me whatever i dont care.

Will

Originally posted by NCxj18
Well its kind of funny u say tellico isnt hard but parts of it are ranked up there in the world.

There are many places not far from where you're at that can make Tellico look like a 2wd facility.

Head out to ERoCC to spectate and you'll see what I'm talking about. Tellico is great wheeling, but it IS NOT as hard as it gets.

Originally posted by bigdude


There are many places not far from where you're at that can make Tellico look like a 2wd facility.

Head out to ERoCC to spectate and you'll see what I'm talking about. Tellico is great wheeling, but it IS NOT as hard as it gets.


Dont worry i like all the comps. but as u said tellico is great wheeling.....which is fine with me it gives me the thrill i need....next major place is moab!!

Will