Okay, I'm makin a buggy. I'm going to use square tubing to make the frame, and it's going to be very light, hopefully under 1500 lbs.

My plan is to run a 4 cyl. engine with a 2wd trans and a divorced case.

I'm a Chevy guy, but none of Chevy's 4 cylinders really stand out.
I am looking at maybe a 22R.
Any other suggestions?

I would think a 22RE. How about a 'zuki motor?

Believe it or not, the Zuk had crossed my mind. They must be very lightweight, yeh?
But how is the power/weight for the Zuk compared to the Yota?

And how do I get a transfer case bolted up that doesn't have the offset rear output?
Any other trans that will bolt to the Zuk?

Originally posted by Reddwarf:
<STRONG>Believe it or not, the Zuk had crossed my mind. They must be very lightweight, yeh?
But how is the power/weight for the Zuk compared to the Yota?

And how do I get a transfer case bolted up that doesn't have the offset rear output?
Any other trans that will bolt to the Zuk?</STRONG>

Didn't you say you wanted a divorced t-case?

How about the marine GM 3.0?

Here's the link I was looking for. Bolts up to any GM 90º tranny without adapters.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines_marine/30_main.htm

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: John Daniel Swink ]

Originally posted by Ben Wellner:
<STRONG>Didn't you say you wanted a divorced t-case?</STRONG>

Duh! <IMG SRC="smilies/redface.gif" border="0"> Sorry.
I knew the Zuk was divorced. Doh!

So how about a Nissan Case. What's the low range in them?

JDS, I have seen a rig in JP that was running the 3.0L. Thanks for the link. <IMG SRC="smilies/cool.gif" border="0">

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: Reddwarf ]

Originally posted by Reddwarf:
<STRONG>Believe it or not, the Zuk had crossed my mind. They must be very lightweight, yeh?
</STRONG>

That's what I was thinking.

So, Toyota, Suzuki, or GM 3.0L. Hmmm.

The GM would be very sweet since I could use my SM 465, but I don't know where I'd find a used one.

Guess I'll have to hit the yards and the classifieds. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

GM you say! The Buick 215 all alum v8 engine weighs just at 330 lbs totally dressed. A 3.5L V8 is by far a better choice!

go 22RE, then go to www.ottindustries.com (http://www.ottindustries.com) for a $199 plate to adapt it to your SM465...

And you are set <IMG SRC="smilies/glasses.gif" border="0">

DRM's idea would probably be a lot cheaper too. Any time you add the word marine to something the price jumps up fast
<IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

How about a jeep 2.5L. I think it uses the same bellhousing pattern as the GM 2.8 V6, so couldn't you find a GM bellhousing that would work w/ an SM465 with no adapters.

Originally posted by Ben Wellner:
<STRONG>How about a jeep 2.5L. I think it uses the same bellhousing pattern as the GM 2.8 V6, so couldn't you find a GM bellhousing that would work w/ an SM465 with no adapters.</STRONG>

They do both share the same 60º bolt pattern. In fact there's a write up of putting a SM420 behind one already.
But I hear those engines are hard to find <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

Why not a Ford 2300cc pinto motor?

You can even turbocharge one to make something like 300hp <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

later <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep1.gif" border="0">

I think what you really need is a Wankel out of one of the old Mazder pickups. <IMG SRC="smilies/clown.gif" border="0">

Pete

Originally posted by Reddwarf:
<STRONG>Okay, I'm makin a buggy. I'm going to use square tubing to make the frame, and it's going to be very light, hopefully under 1500 lbs.

My plan is to run a 4 cyl. engine with a 2wd trans and a divorced case.

</STRONG>

Type IV air-cooled Porche engine? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> No radiator to take up space, no coolant to add weight. Plenty of performance parts.. but not cheap.

<IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

RX7 rotary engine, w/ RX7 5-speed. Then wait for OTT to come out with their divorce kit for the Toy t-case and put one of those behind it with 4:1 gears.

Originally posted by Ben Wellner:
<STRONG>RX7 rotary engine, w/ RX7 5-speed. Then wait for OTT to come out with their divorce kit for the Toy t-case and put one of those behind it with 4:1 gears.</STRONG>

AA has a divorce kit for the Dana 20, too. Dunno if it'd work with a Tera kit.

Or a divorced NP205 from a Dodge/Ford/IH, but that's getting heavy again.

I was wondering if the 203 doubler would work with a divorced '205..

Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>
I was wondering if the 203 doubler would work with a divorced '205..</STRONG>
http://www.offroaddesign.com/catalog/doubler.htm

"NP205 Choices:

At this time (May' 01) the only 205 choice for use with the Doubler™ in GM or Dodge applications is the TH400 version 205. This transfer case uses a 32 spline female input gear for maximum durability and strength. A Doubler™ for the TH350 version 205 should be available by July '01. If you don't have or can't find a TH400 version 205, Offroad Design has the parts to convert your SM465 or TH350 version 205 to a TH400 type. See our "NP205 Tech info" section for more information. It can be accessed from a link on our home page"

We were having a simular discussion the other week and my friend Marty mentioned a marine engine that is half of a 460 Ford with a Chevy Bolt pattern. Should be a tourque monster. I've been considering going with one of those instead of a Buick V6 in my Jeep. My dad mentioned that being a Marine engine it may spin backwards, I'll have to check on that. You could also try the Iron Duke 4 banger or a 2.5L 4 banger from a Jeep. Nobady seems to like the 4 bangers and you can pick them up cheap.
Travis

Originally posted by Mieser:
<STRONG>Why not a Ford 2300cc pinto motor?

You can even turbocharge one to make something like 300hp <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">

later <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep1.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

my 2.0l is turbo'd and supposed to push 250+ but you also have to remember the torque curve isn't going to be like a jeep motor

You can get a ford 2.3 for practically nothing at a junk yard, they are cheap to build, and have arguably the largest aftermarket following around.

Pick up a 2.3Turbo from an '89 Tbird, as it's got the intercooler. Stock 250hp, and it's light as sh1t. Chip it, cam it, K&N and a 3" pipe, you're sitting on 300hp easy, and lots of low end grunt from a lopey cam.

-J

Originally posted by xBabyJesus:
<STRONG>You can get a ford 2.3 for practically nothing at a junk yard, they are cheap to build, and have arguably the largest aftermarket following around.

Pick up a 2.3Turbo from an '89 Tbird, as it's got the intercooler. Stock 250hp, and it's light as sh1t. Chip it, cam it, K&N and a 3" pipe, you're sitting on 300hp easy, and lots of low end grunt from a lopey cam.

-J</STRONG>

Is there a readily available 5 speed manual that will work behind that engine?

MMMM....5spd behind a 2300 Ford....

I would think that the mustang 5spd would work. Some mustangs came with the 2300 4cyl without/ and with a turbo. That tranny would work I would think, though it might be a little long. I would think about running the C4 automatic? That auto is tiny too, plus you can build them to be hell ah stout. They even have low gearsets.

I sometimes dream about building a FORD GPW with 2300 turbo motor, I think that would be a fun little rig!

later <IMG SRC="smilies/jeep1.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Mieser:
<STRONG>MMMM....5spd behind a 2300 Ford....

I would think that the mustang 5spd would work. Some mustangs came with the 2300 4cyl without/ and with a turbo. That tranny would work I would think, though it might be a little long. I would think about running the C4 automatic? That auto is tiny too, plus you can build them to be hell ah stout. They even have low gearsets.

</STRONG>

Didn't the EB use the C4 with Dana 20?

How about combining the Mustang C4 auto with some Bronco parts to make a 2300/C4/Dana20 combo? You could still run a divorced 'case from whatever to get cheap dual low. Use a Chevy/Dodge/Scout/etc. front axle with a passenger diff and the Ford Dana 20 left-output won't even be in the way of a right-drop divorced 'case.

I even have an '84 Mustang 2.3L-NA/auto lyin' around.. along with the whole car.

I still don't know what to do with it.. buddy was supposed to get the 2.3L operational in exchange for the 351W powered '85 Crown Vic I gave him..

Saturn Twin Cam.
Cheap, loads of power,easy to swap and they rock if you gotta nail it to pop over an obstacle or shoot across a dune. <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

[ 09-14-2001: Message edited by: John Warren Runberg ]

I thought the 2.3 pinto engine was heavy. According to this list: http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/engineweights.html you talking 420-450lbs. That's pretty heavy. I would sudjest a porche aircooled or a vw bus aircooled. They are basically the same motor, both 2.0L and you can basically swap parts from what I understand. You can get allot of power out of those vw engines. They even have an efi option, just hard to find.

Originally posted by Overkiller:
<STRONG>.... You could also try the Iron Duke 4 banger or a 2.5L 4 banger from a Jeep. Nobady seems to like the 4 bangers and you can pick them up cheap.
Travis</STRONG>

I have always thought that the jeep 2.5 was an Iron Duke with a different sticker on it.

OTT has a divorce plate for a toy t/c now. I say run a zuk motor and frame, throw everything else away so you can stretch the wheelbase without adding to the frame. Add a divored toy t/c, some d44s, 38s and a as little tubing as possible. Ive seen something close and it worked excellent. I you keep it that light and gutless, 44s are bulletproof, even with 38s. My .02

Wow, there are some good ideas here.

I like the sound of the Saturn engine, they really are peppy and light too, but what RWD trans would bolt up?

RX-7 sounds good too, I know they made a lot of power, though maybe not so easy to find.

I used to have a Mustang sitting around w/a C4, but I sold it <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

I have a line on a 4 banger from an Opel. I don't know much about it though. May be too heavy for my needs.

I am thinking now that whatever engine I get, I will just run the 2wd trans to a GM NP 435, to a divorced case (Nissan?) to my 10 bolts with 4.88 gears for about 160:1

If your thinking about using a 22r than just use the entire package, motor trans and t-cases. Everyone knows the 22r is good motor that has proven itself and everyone knows how cool the T-cases are and that there easy and cheap to build up. Why play with all the adapters and stuff go with what works. Just my .02

2.7 toyota tacoma motors kick ass <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

Fatkid is right about toy stuff, it works forever, its just not nearly as light as zuk stuff. You could easily start out with a old toy 4x and through everything away, but it wont be 1500 lbs.

Right. I like the Zuk idea. I think I will go that route if I can find one. 4x4 stuff is not as plentiful or cheap here where the Yankees have taken over <IMG SRC="smilies/frown.gif" border="0">

12a rotary just pick up a 79 to 85 rxy7 and use that motor and trans. we are doing the swap right now in a zuk pu. it will have 105 hp and plenty of torque and its light. i picked up a good running/wrecked rx7 for 400.00 bucks and drove it home. my 2 cents mike

Originally posted by Ben Wellner:
<STRONG>How about a jeep 2.5L. I think it uses the same bellhousing pattern as the GM 2.8 V6, so couldn't you find a GM bellhousing that would work w/ an SM465 with no adapters.</STRONG>

the jeep 2.5 s are very stronge and with a sm 420 behind it you would have a good start on your crawl ratio.

Why the divorced t case? The Suzuki stuff is light duty, and there isn't as many options as the Toyota gear.

Originally posted by fatkid:
<STRONG>Why the divorced t case? The Suzuki stuff is light duty, and there isn't as many options as the Toyota gear.</STRONG>

I don't want to use the Zuk T-case (I need a centered rear output) but I want the divorced case because if I do go Toyota, I am much more likely to find a 2wd.

You guys out there in 4xHeaven just don't understand, there's like next to nothing as far as junkyards around here, and most people don't have older trucks. Lot of Honda Civics that come up from West Palm to go to school here, and a shit-load of Lincoln Town Cars that come down from New Jersey, etc.

Anyways, I also would like to stack trannies. My friend has a GM NP 435 I can put behind whatever trans backs the motor for an extra 4.78 reduction.

And if I do come across a Zuk engine/trans, I have to go divorced anyways, but I need a centered rear to go to my 10 bolt.

The whole idea is to go light duty (except for the 435, but that's just what's lying around). <IMG SRC="smilies/cool.gif" border="0">

if you want light weight you CAN NOT beat a rotory mazda motor. And in the future you can add a turbo setup easily when you get money

Honda motor and trans. You put the motor in rear wheel drive stile and that give you a front and rear output shaft. no transfer case needed

Originally posted by Chad Allen Perry AKA Lostone:
<STRONG>Honda motor and trans. You put the motor in rear wheel drive stile and that give you a front and rear output shaft. no transfer case needed</STRONG>

sound light and is interesting idea but where does the low range come from?

If you used the front wheel drive idea you could put the engine in so the axles / drive shafts spun revers from normal and flip standard rotation axles upside down and have high pinions. You would have to flip the nucles over to your stereing geometery. but where are you going to get the low range so you can crawle? It would be slower than some things because the axles/drive shafts are turning at the road speed of the car but i dont think it would be enough.

As far as the rotary motors go, I have been told that the 13b in the trucks and wagons are a bigger ?displacement? . Hooked to the stock trans and a Nissan case would be killer.

put in a 4cyl. volvo engine..theone in my '92 wagon 740 kicks asss....super reliable,,good power too for a 4 banger

No, No, No,

You all are not thinking outside the box!! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

3.9L Cummins Diesel. 130 hp, 350lb/ft torque.
Fuel injected(well duh!), will run at any angle. Cummins makes adapters to mate up to any popular tranny from the major three(TH350/400, SM465/420, C6, NP435, NV4500)
And diesel exhaust smells so much better than gas exhaust. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

? 10 bolts with 38's ???

Robert forgot that we wanted to have a light rig when its done.

Originally posted by Robert:
<STRONG>No, No, No,

You all are not thinking outside the box!! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

3.9L Cummins Diesel. 130 hp, 350lb/ft torque.
Fuel injected(well duh!), will run at any angle. Cummins makes adapters to mate up to any popular tranny from the major three(TH350/400, SM465/420, C6, NP435, NV4500)
And diesel exhaust smells so much better than gas exhaust. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Yeah, that 4 cyl B series weighs as much as the rest of the rig.

Pete

Yeah, I know, light weight and all <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> .

For reliability, light weight, and aftermarket parts availability, it sure is hard to be Toyota. 22R with a Weber, or 22RE.

Originally posted by Reddwarf:
<STRONG>it's going to be very light, hopefully under 1500 lbs.

</STRONG>
LOLOL tires and axles alone are gonna weigh 1000 lbs!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Randy:
<STRONG>the jeep 2.5 s are very stronge and with a sm 420 behind it you would have a good start on your crawl ratio.</STRONG>

Plus the Jeep 2.5 makes 125 HP, and if you kept your weight down to about 1,500lbs., you'd have a helluva good power to weight ratio! That thing would scoot it you want it too <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> . I'm sure there are more powerful options, but the 2.5 will run forever.

Originally posted by Ant:
<STRONG>Originally posted by Reddwarf:
it's going to be very light, hopefully under 1500 lbs.

</STRONG>
LOLOL tires and axles alone are gonna weigh 1000 lbs!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

This is true.... <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Leonard (Leni) John Moore:
<STRONG>I thought the 2.3 pinto engine was heavy. According to this list: http://performanceunlimited.com/documents/engineweights.html you talking 420-450lbs. That's pretty heavy. I would sudjest a porche aircooled or a vw bus aircooled. They are basically the same motor, both 2.0L and you can basically swap parts from what I understand. You can get allot of power out of those vw engines. They even have an efi option, just hard to find.</STRONG>

according to that list, a for 2.3L wheighs about the same as a 289/302??? just blew the validity of that list OUT THE WINDOW

The Saturn twin cam can be bolted up to any transmission with an adapter plate. Any machinist worth his shit could fab one up for you. The twin cam motor, similar to what Toyota runs in their buggies, will freakin' ROCK!!!!!!!

Buy the entire engine, tank and electronics fro a wreked car.

GO FOR IT!!!!! <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/usa.gif" border="0">

There is always the 1.9L diesel that came in some old chevettes. No HP but loads of torque. Just a thought.

Originally posted by Mark Eric Hildenbrand:
<STRONG>This is true.... <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>
Exactly, It is very hard to make a 4x4 under 2500 lbs. I know I’ve done it.

Some copter pilots were making a 350 only use 4 cyls here (no not a miss cut 4 off!). It was pretty cool. What about a VW engine??? I have seen some sand buggies that would definitely give a good pucker factor. There are GOBS AND GOBS of power upgrades and extremely cheap... OR for big $$$ go Lotus turbo <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Ant:
<STRONG>
LOLOL tires and axles alone are gonna weigh 1000 lbs!!!
<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

What?!? And who said I was running 38"s?
I have a set of radial 35"s that probably weigh around 40 pounds each. Alloy rims, and we're talking a little over 200 lbs.

And the 10 bolts should hold up fine on a light weight vehicle. They ought to be at least as strong as a Dana 30/AMC 20.

the samurai engine weighs in at about 90lb. so it would be great if you want to keep it light.

the rotary is the hands down winner in the power to weight game. they are easy to get parts for and you can get all the power you want. go to yaw preformance and check out some of his motors. his mazda pickup has about 250 hp. and 275 tq. if i remember right. might be backwards on the #s. the 12a is 1200 cc and the 13b is 1300 cc. and nothing will give you the hp to weight. another 2 cents mike

Ya but we dont what to have to pedle to!

Originally posted by Mudmagnet:
<STRONG>the samurai engine weighs in at about 90lb. so it would be great if you want to keep it light.</STRONG>

<IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by gunracer:
<STRONG>the rotary is the hands down winner in the power to weight game. they are easy to get parts for and you can get all the power you want. go to yaw preformance and check out some of his motors. his mazda pickup has about 250 hp. and 275 tq. if i remember right. might be backwards on the #s. the 12a is 1200
cc and the 13b is 1300 cc. and nothing will give you the hp to weight. another 2 cents mike</STRONG>

will the rotary have any torq? It makes power at high RPM. You want a engine that will tractor along at 700 RPM

I don't remember how heavy/light they are, but the old Datsun A12/A13 motors can be had for next to nothing, I'm sure. Then you could run dual Nissan cases, just clock one to the left so that it makes room for the output of the second case. They are very small motors, but not tons of power. With double cases (or even triple, if you bolt a couple together if possible) power wouldn't be an issue so much would it?

Also with a tire that big and so little weight, and so much torque, you could end up with problems like not having enough weight to give you traction. I've heard of that happening with ultra low gearing and big tires, althought I've never seen it.

Hope I'm not too way off base <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Toygeek, you may be correct about the contact pressure, but by starting light, I can always add more weight by welding on more stuff, like a heavy truss on each axle to keep the COG low.
Dual lockers should help keep it moving as well.

Also, I originally had 34x9.50 TSL's in mind, and as $$$ allows, I may pick up a set.

Mudmagnet, thanks for providing the weight for the Zuk mill. I had no idea they were that light <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0">
I now think that 1500 lbs is definately achievable.

[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Reddwarf ]

If ya go Rotary they really make their power at like over 8,000 RPMs and I know of racing engines that can hit 12,000 RPMs no problem. you could use the Mazda tranny I think its geared pretty low to keep the engine in its power band or you could just put in a doubler

will the rotary have any torq? It makes power at high RPM. You want a engine that will tractor along at 700 RPM


the higher the rpm range of a motor the lower the gears need to be. you have to gear it so the motor will be turning in the rpm range where it makes it's power yet puts the vehicle in the speed range it needs to be for the type wheeling you do.

Originally posted by Reddwarf:
<STRONG>Toygeek, you may be correct about the contact pressure, but by starting light, I can always add more weight by welding on more stuff, like a heavy truss on each axle to keep the COG low.
Dual lockers should help keep it moving as well.

Also, I originally had 34x9.50 TSL's in mind, and as $$$ allows, I may pick up a set.
</STRONG>

Now you're talkin'! Keep those tires narrow and you should be OK I think. I knew a guy with those and they worked really well. Also don't forget that unsprung weight is good, keeps CG low and gives traction, and helps with articulation. Keep the chassis/body/drivetrain light!!!

Man now you got me thinking, I wanna BUILD!

1500lbs......lol.lol.lol.lol.lol.....sorry but to get it down about 2100 will be very hard even with zuk motor. <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/laughing.gif" border="0">

i guess the zuk motor i pulled out the other day was way more than 90 lbs. the rotary has way more power than the zuk and more torque. go to yaw performance and check out some of the dyno charts. if you notice most of the bad ass sand rails have rotarys in them now. a stock 13b has 146 hp and way more torque than any of the light weight 4 bangers. and is just as light if not lighter. mike

A Rotary is light, compact and can make a bunch of horsepower. But they get most of it in the higher RPMs.

I have a 13b in my 4 seat sand rail and it was dyno'd at 350+ HP at the wheels. Turbo w/ intercooler and EFI. But it acts like a two-stroke. It really doesn't get on it until after 4000 RPM. Great for sand dunes, not for idle speeds over rocks....

Crowdog

Originally posted by gunracer:
<STRONG>i guess the zuk motor i pulled out the other day was way more than 90 lbs. </STRONG>

Hmmm. I was afraid of that. I really didn't see how any 4 cyl could weigh 90Lbs, but it got my hopes up. So what is your estimate Gunracer?

I am thinking about using aluminum channel for the frame rails...any thoughts?

Can't anyone come up with a weight for the rotary engine? Or the Zuk?

<IMG SRC="smilies/confused.gif" border="0">

Engine weight for a rotary = 260 lbs.

Here is a link to others: http://www.extremebuggies.com/pitlane/00004.asp

I have a '85 1.8L Subaru that I am using in a sand rail. It has good low end torque and is very light.

Jon (Crowdog)

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Jon David Crowley ]

Crowdog, thanks a bunch for that link! <IMG SRC="smilies/cool.gif" border="0">

There is some sweet stuff on that site, like this: (drool!) http://users.techline.com/natedogg/toyota_engine2.jpg