The heated discussion in the Rockwell locker thread has me intrigued. I thought it deserved its own thread. My opinion is that it breaks down like this:

spotter - %40
driver skill - %20
communication/teamwork - %20
rig - %20

That's my opinion based on observation, I have not competed yet. So what's your opinion??

I would really like to hear from the competitor's on this board, too.

Lance?
Mike?
Shupee?

GETTIN IT!!!!!!!!!!

Thats what wins

Before you discuss any of this, you HAVE to finish to win, peirod. Drivers, and spotters often forget that, and get tunnel vision on one obstacle, which leads to breakage, or rolling. When competitions are being won with less than 30 points for both days, you can't time out an obstacle, you can't hit cones. Take the one point to save 10, or even 40.

Having a vehicle that is adequate to win, but not overly complicated.

As far as spotters go, I'd say as long as the driver, and the spotter communicate well, and trust each other, that is enough, for the most part. The spotter NEEDS to be strong, loud, and pull that damn strap. This is quickly becoming a strap pulling competition.

Honestly, I think the driver's experience behind the wheel of their vehicle is the key. If you've driven the vehicle long enough, you know which rocks are going to catch diffs, you know which lever to pull without looking, you know how far you can push without rolling, or breaking.

exactly borninajeep, i agree totally. Not breaking pretty much guarantees you a middle of the pack finish. You also have to drive for points, and strategize. Example: At the last Cedar City RCAA event, there was an obstacle where lots of people were rolling because of where they put the cones. You could take the cones for 20 pts, and have no prob. Only 3 rigs made it around clean without hiting at least 1 cone. Mike Shaffer, Drew Barber(the assasin), and Shupe. Tracy Jordan almost made it, but hit 1 cone and rolled anyways just past the cones. I asked why later that night, and he said he was there to drive the course as it was laid out. His view was that he didn't want to back down from a challenge. I respect that viewpoint, but if he had taken the cones he would have placed one position up, and took home an additional $1000. So, there are people that drive for points, and people that drive to "get it", and people that drive to show off, people that drive for fun...

Being familiar with your rig is crucial. Toyfamily and I quickly discovered that at the Reno Cal Rocs. The buggae had been driven onto the trailer and that was it! We spent most of teh day learning what the rig could do and what we could do with the rig, but it was too little too late. We still ran the tougher courses better than the majority of drivers, so that was nice, but consistency is crucial to win.

The biggest advantage that I feel I have is SEAT TIME. I can pull up to an obstacle and know if A: I can drive up it or B: We need to do something different. My rig is basically the same one from 2 years ago. It has evolved to what it is now. Most competitors are always changing rigs for whatever reason.
Another big factor is comunication w/ your spotter. Someone you are compatible with on or off the course.(i.e. both can drink equal amounts off cold BEER).
Lets talk about strap pulling for a minute. Was anyone bitching about straps last year when it was the CURRIE team in the lead. HELL no they were'nt. What is everyone going to gripe about next? Everyone has the opportunity to get just as big and strong of a spotter as Shaefer and I do. Just go down to the Gym and pick you one out..
Here's the real deal- In order to keep the crowd and spectators interested they have to make us try the really stupid stuff. This "stupid stuff" can not be done safely without someone to keep you sunny side up PERIOD. I.E. off camber stuff and steep climbs. The truth be known a 150 lb. person can do just about as much with the strap in the right spot, it just doesn't take as much as you think to help just a little.

Originally posted by Shupee
The biggest advantage that I feel I have is SEAT TIME. I can pull up to an obstacle and know if A: I can drive up it or B: We need to do something different. My rig is basically the same one from 2 years ago. It has evolved to what it is now. Most competitors are always changing rigs for whatever reason.
Another big factor is comunication w/ your spotter. Someone you are compatible with on or off the course.(i.e. both can drink equal amounts off cold BEER).
Lets talk about strap pulling for a minute. Was anyone bitching about straps last year when it was the CURRIE team in the lead. HELL no they were'nt. What is everyone going to gripe about next? Everyone has the opportunity to get just as big and strong of a spotter as Shaefer and I do. Just go down to the Gym and pick you one out..
Here's the real deal- In order to keep the crowd and spectators interested they have to make us try the really stupid stuff. This "stupid stuff" can not be done safely without someone to keep you sunny side up PERIOD. I.E. off camber stuff and steep climbs. The truth be known a 150 lb. person can do just about as much with the strap in the right spot, it just doesn't take as much as you think to help just a little.

Very well said, Ken. I believe that consistency, and being able to keep your cool under pressure are two very important things....

Like Ken said,..seat time is very important.
If you can see how you need to climb the course from the beginning and have the skill to hold the lines you have chosen, and the confidence to do it smoothly, you can stay out of a lot of trouble.
From my own experience, I can tell you its very important to gain enough confidence in your driving that you dont let failed attempts by other drivers talk you out of your planned strategy.
Good communications between the driver and spotter, along with confidence in the spotters abilities, are also very important.

We just think about what we're doing after this day is done , and then run the course.
Eric Filar

SHUPEEEEEEEE!!!! whats up bud

to win it takes one shupee and one scrambler cowl and a big turd o i mean one big dude.look out shupee i can drive gooder the morer i drinky dam if only finland my mother land had some comps like these you have here in america ya. hey shupee next year you better be ready and you no why. ya finland boy be gona bearing da ass ya:flipoff2:

When I get to the really scrary sections, I just close my eyes, seems to work for me. :D :D :D

It takes study to win. You have to look at what others are doing and building. Look at their failures. Where did they have problems. Then create a solution to the problem. Redesign the rig, change driving habbits and work the problem till you have it down. Then move onto the next issue. Walker was having problems (with a different spotter) doing V notches. The next time we went out to practice we spent 2 hours just farting around the very same V notches he was having problems. Doing them forward and backward till he was not afraid of them any more.

If you can't get your rig to do the same things others are doing you need to analize where the differences are and how you can change yours to be as good or even improve over your competitor

Also look at the big picture. Be thinking about the entire course during your race.
Don't go out just thinking if I do well I can beat so in so, you should know exactly how have points your behind, So you can plan your stratgy. If your far behind, you may find that only a daring run on a different line has the change of winning. So you take it!

Winning is looking at the whole picture and under standing each teams strengths and weaknesses.

I like what Shupee said best. Seat time, compatibility and beer.

So is bigdude "moose"???

... 'tis all good stuff.

But I don't agree with this;

"spotter - %40
driver skill - %20
communication/teamwork - %20
rig - %20 "

How many times did Fat-B ride shotgun w/ Mike through obstacles for extra points? That spotter-40% / driver-20% needs to be swapped.

cmk

Think it would have happened if Lance was blindfolded? A spotter is still very helpful and crucial in the situation you are describing. He watches and tells the driver what is going on, on the passenger side. The extra points thing is the one rule that I'll gripe about.
Toyfamily built his buggy, knowing it would be in the unlimited class, because of its narrow body width. That was fine, so he built a single seater buggy, expecting to compete with the 4 wheels steer guys. We don't have rear steer or even a rear disconnect yet. We showed up at Moon Rocks and there is a new rule that if the spotter rides in the rig, they get a negative five points, per course. That's great, unless you have a single seat buggy. I think this is a great rule for the pro mod or stock class, but in the unlimited class, where the design of a rig is the reason it is in the unlmited class (it is UNLIMITED). It doesn't seem right for one team to be excluded because they don't have a second seat. What it boils down to, is if we run a perfect day (no points) we still lose. I think every rig that made it into the finals at the Moon Rocks event (unlimited class) had a negative score. Jason Paule finished day 1 with a negative 35, which is a perfect day with the new scoring system.

Originally posted by Wilson
We showed up at Moon Rocks and there is a new rule that if the spotter rides in the rig, they get a negative five points, per course.

This is not a new rule. It was implemented before the first event of the year.

In RCAA there is no spotter ride option.

Not you, thats for sure!!! HAHAHAHA!!! But seriously, playing the points wins. Thats why waggoner won for so long. Because they played the points.

Originally posted by Wilson
Think it would have happened if Lance was blindfolded? A spotter is still very helpful and crucial in the situation you are describing. He watches and tells the driver what is going on, on the passenger side. The extra points thing is the one rule that I'll gripe about.
Toyfamily built his buggy, knowing it would be in the unlimited class, because of its narrow body width. That was fine, so he built a single seater buggy, expecting to compete with the 4 wheels steer guys. We don't have rear steer or even a rear disconnect yet. We showed up at Moon Rocks and there is a new rule that if the spotter rides in the rig, they get a negative five points, per course. That's great, unless you have a single seat buggy. I think this is a great rule for the pro mod or stock class, but in the unlimited class, where the design of a rig is the reason it is in the unlmited class (it is UNLIMITED). It doesn't seem right for one team to be excluded because they don't have a second seat. What it boils down to, is if we run a perfect day (no points) we still lose. I think every rig that made it into the finals at the Moon Rocks event (unlimited class) had a negative score. Jason Paule finished day 1 with a negative 35, which is a perfect day with the new scoring system.

Ah but if TF did not use a spotter then he would have received the bouns points for not using spotter. Something a single seat buggy lends itself to.

OTOH, without a spotter you would not have been able to right side the rig on seven at CalRocks.

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
So is bigdude "moose"???

I'm as dumb as a moose :flipoff2:

I'm spotting for Shupee in Pro Rocks this weekend and possibly next year in a series or two ;). Moose has spotted for him for a while but got a real job and may not have enough time to do this stuff next year. I have a very large pair of pants to fill :laughing:

Don't rush, yell loudly so the driver can hear, pull hard, always stack more rocks than you think you need. If you have 10 minutes to do the coarse and it will take 2 minutes to drive it, I know you have 4 minutes to stack rocks and another 4 minutes to unstack them :D I also like to yell "COME ON!" real loud before a throttle attack. That seems to help all drivers :)

big dude is not moose theres only one MOOSE (NO COMPARISON)!!! -- it takes luck and team-work --

The best thing to have is GOOD LUCK .
Hey Partsjunkie have you got those Ken Shupe action figures yet?

1)Your rig has to be reliable enough to make the entire event with minimal tweaking.

2) There's a lot of reliable rigs that don't work well (climb, off camber etc) and vice versa.

3) clear, strategizing, cool head- like someone said, don't be hell bent on the hairy line if one reverse squares you up for a sure thing.

4) rule # 3 gets tossed if it's a close race and guys ahead of you in pts make the tougher line with no points.

Maybe the spotter has a bigger presence in the strap events, very little experience there- I prefer strapless myself! (More about driving and less about buddy Girth)

You do need a good spotter but you can still place well with a mediocre one if you've got the other stuff going your way.

As said, seat time, rig performance, driver.

I believe in light weight but seems like a lot of 4kish rigs are no slouches with all the right stuff going on

Know the rules and use them- there are variations with different promoters, can work with you if you know them and kill any chance if you don't

We need to get Jeep to kick in 30 rubicons and have and have an IROC event (Identical rigs)

:D

1) A rig must be 100% dependable

2) Sleep

3) Know when to pull cable and save the rig.

4) Spotter/Driver %. Not set %, you can have a 10% driver that will follow a 90% spotter blindly without regard for his/her life. and probably do just as good with a 90% driver and a 10% spotter that is there for a counterweight.

IMO

Trusting your spotter is a big thing. There are certain people that i will have spot for me who i will listen to, then evaluate what they tell me then go. there are others who i either just watch for signals, or listen to, and dont even look at what i'm going over, i just trust what they tell me, and do what they say.

Dallas

Ohh.. the most important one.

when you know you ain't gonna win. Put on a show! The crowd will remember the team that puts on a good show more than the team who got 1st place. ;)

Originally posted by twaldher

3) Know when to pull cable and save the rig.


If you're planning on WINNING, pulling a cable is almost NEVER an option. Remember, the winning scores for each RCAA event:

Farmington: 6 points
Vernal: 5 points
Cedar City: 4 points
Will JV be 3 points? :confused: ;)

You can't get scores like that if you are going to winch an obstacle....

Great responses guys, keep the opinions coming!!

Lance, we never heard any discussion of the ride along rule and I don't think anyone had their spotter ride along at the Victorvile event. It was news to us and other teams. Similar to Tony K's frustration at the Victorville event when there was no penalty for using rear steer.

jdjanda, He could ahve chose to run without a spotter, like Brutus did. The problem with that scenario is that he is then stuck with that decision, wheras the ride along guys can always have the spotter jump out, if they are in a jam. In any event we would ahve run Moon Rocs with a spotter regardless as those who watched us saw, we were very unfamiliar with the rig and needed my help on a strap and to roll the buggae back over, the 3 times that we self-recovered the buggae (out of 5).

Originally posted by Wilson
Lance, we never heard any discussion of the ride along rule and I don't think anyone had their spotter ride along at the Victorvile event.

I know I had MY spotter ride along in the victorville event. :p
http://www.pirate4x4.com/lance/uploads/Lance06.jpg

Kevin Yoder:
http://calrocs.com/victorville02/P3100068.jpg

Originally posted by Lance


If you're planning on WINNING, pulling a cable is almost NEVER an option. Remember, the winning scores for each RCAA event:

Farmington: 6 points
Vernal: 5 points
Cedar City: 4 points
Will JV be 3 points? :confused: ;)

You can't get scores like that if you are going to winch an obstacle....

I guess my point was more of a. At some point in time, in rock crawling I would either a) take the time out, or b) winch and get penalty points either way. If things got fawked up that bad.

When I was doing off-road rallye type stuff. The name of the game was knowing what to hit hard and what not to. In that event, you have to finish to have a chance at winning.

From my one go at it so far, I learned a few things fer sure ...
1. Don't look too far ahead or you just may knock over that last cone.
2. Finess beats horspower and muscle.
3. CONSISTANCY wins!
It won't win you anything if you ace one gate only to totally screw up the next ... :rasta:

Winching is 20 points, so I doubt anyone will choose taht option, that's a huge penalty, kind of like Nick and I not even thinking about rolling the buggy back over and continuing on course one. Lance, thanks for teh pics, I didn't even really notice that, how many courses did you have your spotter ride?

Even with all said and the good points made by the low scores etc....

At the Pro rock in Disney, Day one, third obstacle had a series of stair steps. This obstacle was scaled by few as indicated by the score sheet. Some, like Jordan, timed out stubbornly trying to crawl it. With my shorter wheelbase (99 at the time) I was trying to do the slightly diagonal - crab thing to avoid the double whammy effect- I slid off and rolled.

My point is that I knew my vehicle had a slim chance on this section (my regular place of testing). If I had winched rather than taking the several reverses and then rolling it would have been 8-10 more points in my favor- enough to bump me to a fourth place finish over Mike Weaver and Troy. Tracy had a little more spread so it might not of altered his finish (Paule was really on his game that weekend).

It comes down to knowing your vehicle, and these are not easy decisions to make, but pulling a cable and finishing with a better score than not finishing the course is strategic competition. It may not be glamorous but if it puts points in your favor it's smart.

I agree with Shupee, seat time helps. The only problem is when Jeff and I entered EROCC, the YJ we ran was finished on Friday night at 7:30 then loaded on the trailer for the trip to the comp which started the following day. What helped us is the fact that the only tires we had to use were 33's, so breakage was not a problem. Spotters help alot also, but you can't be afraid to stack rocks. Sure, stacking rocks on a normal trail ride my take some of the fun out of it, but in a comp, it could save you from having to take points for backs or even winching.

Also, at this point, we don't consider ourselves competing against everyone else, we are just trying to beat the obstacles, that seems hard enough. We are just looking to have fun... anything else is a bonus.

Mike C
#94