My name is Michael and I am the owner of Shinneyboo Creek at the end of Eagle Lakes Rd and I am the one responsible for plowing the road in the Winter. I now seem to be in a State of War with the 4x4 community and I am calling for a Peace Conference to see if we can come to some sort of truce.

There is a growing belligerence on the part of Fordyce Trail users and I am getting read to go postal if we don't come to some sort of arrangement (I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way). I have been physically threatened twice this year. My guests have been harassed as they tried to get past you to come into their cabins. I don't know exactly what is going, but I suspect that some of you may think that I have something to do with the thefts and vandalism going on at the trail head, but I can assure you that I am as much a victim as the rest of you.

I believe that it is 4x4 users who broke into my storage boxes (FYI the boxes cost more than the crap my sisters are storing in them), threw rocks through my crane truck windows, started the two fires on my property, and generally leave their trail trash all over my property and shit and piss where they please (generally the people fucking on my property don't appear to be 4x4ers. However, reading this forum has made me think that perhaps we have common enemies and some sort of peaceful co-existence might be possible with the majority of you all.

I don't believe that there is any concern on your part (with very few exceptions) about what the impacts of your activities are on my family, my business, and myself, so I am going to ask you to articulate the problems you are having with me as a starting point.

I am willing to hold this Peace Conference online, however I suspect that the nature of email communications will lead to greater animosity, or meet with representatives in person to work this out.

If not, I will work my political connections, my relationships with the Forest Service, CHP, Nevada and Placer Sheriffs to shut this road down and get enforcement of existing regulations implemented and enhanced -- the law is on my side. If you noticed the Sacramento media announcements about not parking on roadways on the summit this past weekend that was a direct result of the coalition I am building to deal with roadway issues from Drum Forebay to Boreal.

I say this only to let you know that I will defend the survival of my business and that you have a lot to lose if you chose to continue this current course of action. Please don't let it go down this path any further. I am willing to be reasonable and listen to your complaints against me and try and articulate my complaints against you and to even work on helping solve our common problems. So lets talk.

Thank you for coming to the forum. We're glad you are here.

I'm sure there will be a good amount of interest in meeting with you to discuss your concerns.

Bret Preble of Friends of Fordyce, should be in contact with you shortly.

Thank you again for coming to the board.

Bebe

Hi Michael,

My name is Bret Preble and I am the President of the Friends of Fordyce. We are incoporated and non profit. The FOF is a coalition of trail users and our aim is to maintain the Fordyce trail and educate users to help insure our continued access to the trail. Please keep in mind though that I and the FOF do not represent all of the 4x4 community. It does sound like we, and any sane people, are all on the same page as far as our base goal which is mutual respect for all and responsible use of the forest. I think getting a dialog going is a great idea. It's obvious this has been affecting you for a while from your comments here.

Most of us using the forest and the Fordyce Trail are responsible and respectful. I am not going to say 4x4 users because some of us, speaking for myself at least, do more than drive a rig in the Tahoe National Forest. We all need to work together to make it a safe fun place to be. Limiting access is never the answer. It does not solve any problems. In fact the very people causing the problems will still be there because they have no regard for any laws. Sad to say any dialog will not include them either. They are not usually the kind to particiate in discussions such as this.

I am going to open the discussion by again saying all us responsible users that are respectful want to resolve your concerns. We share a lot of them in fact. Next I am going to be honest and hope you understand where I am coming from when I take exception to the following statements you made in you opening post. I will try not to take them out of context when I quote you.

1. "I now seem to be in a State of War with the 4x4 community..."

I respectfully disagree. You might be in a state of war with individual users but not with us all. You should not lump all people in a 4x4 all together. I for one have never even heard of you and your property before today.

2. "There is a growing belligerence on the part of Fordyce Trail users and I am getting read to go postal if we don't come to some sort of arrangement (I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way)."

This sounds an awful lot like a threat to shoot someone. If this is the kind of person you are I think we can stop right now and get the authorities involved as I have no desire to be a target.

3. We never use the word "fuck" of any of its derivitives in the Fordyce Forum. I used it this once and I will leave it in your post to show what I mean. This is the one and only thread to contain it. If you use it or any other expletive I will edit it out and possible delete the entire post. Thanks for understanding on language. This rule is in a thread on top of the forum by the way that outlines the rules for posting in the Fordyce Forum.

4. "I don't believe that there is any concern on your part .."

Totally untrue. I am extremely concerned about this problem and will do everthing I can to help resolve it.

5. "If not, I will work my political connections, my relationships with the Forest Service, CHP, Nevada and Placer Sheriffs to shut this road down and get enforcement of existing regulations implemented and enhanced -- the law is on my side. If you noticed the Sacramento media announcements about not parking on roadways on the summit this past weekend that was a direct result of the coalition I am building to deal with roadway issues from Drum Forebay to Boreal.

I say this only to let you know that I will defend the survival of my business and that you have a lot to lose if you chose to continue this current course of action. Please don't let it go down this path any further. I am willing to be reasonable and listen to your complaints against me and try and articulate my complaints against you and to even work on helping solve our common problems. So lets talk."

I just quoted the entire last part of your post and I will say this. All us law abiding forest users do not respond well to threats. The people you are reaching here are most likely not the ones you are having the problem with. I am pretty sure I can safely say all of us want your business to be safe and profitable and support your right to your livelyhood. We will do whatever we can do to help you as this can ony help us as well.

Let's get going on solving this problem!

Bret

If you would like we can talk in person. You can PM me and we can exchange phone numbers and can arrange a time to talk. As you point out sometimes internet conversations can get out of hand.

I hope this can be worked out, as well, since I've stayed at Shinneyboo Creek and hope to do so again. I respect the signs and patrons there, as do my friends... one thing, though, I won't patronize an establishment that I know opposes responsible OHV use. I hope you work with OHVers, so that I can return.

I don't think it is appropriate for OHV users to harass or threaten you, nor do I support threats in the other direction, which I see in your words, when you threaten 'going postal' and parenthetically reference your second amendment rights. FWIW, I doubt that it is 4x4 users trashing your property, and suspect that it is area youth. Though these may seem to be the same users to you, stop and consider that responsible OHV users are trying to get to Fordyce, and have little interest in your property -- we're there to go 'wheeling!

Open communications makes sense... thanks for starting the dialogue. Please try to continue it with fewer overt threats. The Friends of Fordyce are good folks who work hard to resolve issues on/near Fordyce -- if you engage in open dialogue with them, it can benefit both your business and responsible motorized access.

Randii

Bebe, I appreciate the restraint you have shown in replying to my response. I thought of starting this tread with a Rodney King like "Gee, can't we all get alone" and the problem is I have a lot of anger and frustration and I decided to give you a (what I thought was somewhat restrained) version of how I am feeling. I have now gotten it out, and I feel slightly embarrassed and that may be a more humble starting point for going forward.

The problem is that I have been actually physically threatened (I called 911 this weekend). After reading the posts on this forum with pictures of guy in front of signs expressing their love of "guns and alcohol" and the postings on what your plans are to do to the people breaking into your vehicles I felt it was important for this community to know that my customers might be Volvo driving, Obamamaniacs, who eat organic, I am not. I am a guy out in the middle of the woods surrounded each weekend with hundreds of guys in big jeeps who seem to love the combination of alcohol and firearms and don't always respect my property rights, or the rule of law and I am threatened. Both physically and financially because my struggling business is hanging by a tread and the last thing I need is guests having confrontations on the road.

Sometimes cornered threatened people snarl and rant. I apologize and will try to be more civil. I would like to talk in person, however I do feel a public discussion is necessary.

"(We) have little interest in your property" is not quite accurate. Everyday I have 10 or more 4x4 vehicles drive into my front yard. My property goes all the way down and over the river to past the bottom gate and you seem to all want to come back up my property in the Winter and drive over (and ruin) my sled hill. In the Summer you park your rigs all over my property and leave your vehicles parked under no parking private property signs. I understand that this is not all of you, however to me it is a distinction without a difference.

The real tense issue is Winter road blockage. And it is not just jeepers, I turned away 200 cars over New Years weekend who were looking to use the road as a free snowpark. I have no problem with the jeepers who drive in down Eagle Lake Road and take off into the Forest Service (except for the illegal firearm use and irresponsible fires), but that is not what is happening. Because the Forest Service does not provide you with any staging area, Eagle Lakes Road is being used to load rigs, tell trail stories, party, etc. This is a County roadway that the County abandons in the Winter and I have to plow two miles of roadway in the High Sierra to access my home and business. I have a hard enough time keeping up with it and usually during big storms get little sleep for long stretches of time, my equipment always breaks, and then I come around the corner and 10 vehicles are parked all over the road (you guys don't seem to travel in small groups), or I work all night to plow the road only to find that a jeep has been playing in the berm and all the snow has been pushed back into the road and then hardens and creates a sheet of ice that I can't ever get up because I don't own a motor grader.

I ask you to think about what would happen to me if I parked in the middle of the main street in your hometown and got out and worked on my rig. If any of you are from the High Sierras you know the Mountain Winter rules -- if you block the road in Winter and the plow takes out your vehicle, you have to pay to fix the plow. Turnouts are not parking spots. You don't park on roads Nov 1 to May 1 and only flatlanders park in the middle of the road to put on chains or clear their windshield.

The starting point of what I want to express is that Eagle Lakes Road is not your staging area. It is a public roadway that it is illegal to stop or park on at anytime and even parking on the shoulder is illegal in the Winter. That said, there is illegal use that I can live with -- Pulling up to under the power lines (by the rock climbing wall) where the sun helps widen the road. Courtesy to the people who's money has paid for the plowing of the road that you are illegally parked on. Smile and wave at my guests, instead of glaring at them and refusing to move. Limiting the blocking of the road to one lane so people can get in and out without having to ask your permission. Limit the snow that you knock back into the road especially at the trail head because it is a blind curve that gets little sun and can become an ice skating rink. Staying off the road entirely during storms and 24 hours after so that I can plow unimpeded.

If all of this could be accomplished, then I would be very supportive of the jeeping community and would be a lot less stressed out every time I come across you on the road.

Bret, sorry for calling you Bebe.

I hope this can be worked out, as well, since I've stayed at Shinneyboo Creek and hope to do so again. I respect the signs and patrons there, as do my friends... one thing, though, I won't patronize an establishment that I know opposes responsible OHV use. I hope you work with OHVers, so that I can return.

Randii

To understand me better, threats of not patronizing my business will not effect me. Jeepers are not my customers (I have had maybe five in five years). My guests are rich bay area families who don't know how to put on chains by themselves, not outdoor 4x4 campers who weld their axles out on the trail.

Mike, Brenden from the Zombies will most likely be calling you today, regarding another request and now this. Count us in also, if we can help to spread the word and assist.

RZ

To add: Mike is one hell of a nice guy and we owe him a huge one from a few years back, he saved some of our asses in a blizzard (another story). Please nobody jump to conclusions and be quick to judge. He does have a valid point here. Also, check out his web page, and go patranize his business. The cabins are great. You would not be dissapointed.

Mike,

Again, thanks for opening up the lines of communication. Sounds like we all need to get together and work this through, it seems simple enough.

I have one question though: Pierce Creek OHV shows a loop, I was under the impression this was a FS Rd., not a private one. If it is Private, then we should only use it with permission, but I think this may be where the confusion lies in respects to your sled hill.

Mike,
I am enthusiastic that you've reached out to all of us. Although Pirate4x4.com is a great tool to inform the uninformed, we still don't have everyone on our side, there will always be a few bad people in the bunch, our job is to seek out those people and educate them. Much like people have done to educate me. There is TONS more we can do to help you out.

I am real hesitant to suspect the thievery, and vandalism is coming from the average 4x4 user, especially from anyone on this website. With all the landuse issues we have encountered, the threats we have endured from the sierra club, and the earth first agenda, we have held several meetings in regards to responsible land use and recreation. I feel that the word has gotten out to most people with whom we all surround ourselves. Clearly, It is some scumbag that has a routine of ripping people off. I camped at the trailhead last year with a few others and when just sitting in the staging area, 30-40 cars/suvs came in, turned around, got stuck in the snow, glared at us and the whole deal. Not one looked like they had anything to do in that area other than something bad!

We want and need your help!

After reading your part in what you want us to do, we now need to think of some ways to be proactive. Can we all think of some more examples that would help you and your business. And can we think of ways to secure our right to the public forest! We want you to be successful! we want your business to survive, and we want you to be profitable.



Do we need more signage in and around the road? maybe telling people what they can do?

We do need sufficient parking, and that would be the staging area, It needs to be cleared and maintained.

Maybe we can set up a fund to help you with the extra costs and time that it takes to maintain that area.
Maybe we can help prepare that area this summer for easier legitimate access?



We Don't want you to fight against us! We want to work with you. In my mind, Fordyce is the best trail out there and we are willing to help secure our future!


Mike Please give us some more examples on projects that we can help you with to better accommodate the parking needs, the user issues, and the vandalism!

We are all on your side.


The RockZombies and the pirate4x4 community are willing to help in any means necessary! :D



Brenden

Dear Mike,
We go to Fordyce many times every year and enjoy the trail. Rarely do we venture to the Eagle Lakes side due to theft as you mentioned. But we are concerned with any problems that cause land use issues.

I would be willing to bring a smaller excavator up for a day to make impasses and or clearing for parking. Also dig a few holes to post up some signs. All I ask is that you cover fuel. If this would be of service do not hesitate to contact me.



Bill
Nor Cal Night Crawlers

i think it's good that you came to the forum with these issues. the major problem is these disrespectful 4x4 users are people that we also have a major problem with. they are called 'yahoos', they get beligerent when you ever approach them pointing out anything they are doing wrong; such as driving off trail, litering, or driving extremely drunk. infact, responsible users get threatned by these same people on the trail.

i for one am a user that regularly goes in through eagle lakes rd. before this post i had never heard of you or your business. i simply get to the staging area, air down and continue into the trail. the 'yahoos' will probably never respect anything so we have a problem that will probably have to involve law enforcement just like the rubicon got to the point where it needed extensive involvement of the el dorado county sheriffs dept. i hope this situation can be resolved, but some of your statements seemed like direct threats and we dont respond well to threats. however, i believe you conveyed your anger as genuine to a real problem and again it's good that you came to the forum first.

Hey Mike,

You obviously remember digging my rockzombie buddies out of the snow a couple years back and you'll likely recall a group of us coming and staying for a bachelor party in May of 07. I had a great time talking with you that whole night and much of the next day. You have a great place there and I can't wait to visit again.

This is definitely the place to get folks on your side to help battle the issues. The community here (based on the locals) has been tuned up to act correctly and attempt to keep open the land we're still allowed access to. The people you're angry with may be reading but they are not active members of this bulletin board. Around New Years 07-08 a few friends and I camped at the Eagle Lakes Trailhead and observed, first hand, a number of shitty individuals trolling for god only knows. People would drive to the staging area in sketchy vehicles, but no crimes would be committed as we were there to thwart any attempts. When we were asleep a number of people still came up the staging area, then left quickly. This happens all hours of the night and I'm sure if they did it in blizzard conditions it has to be much worse during the summer months.

If you want to send me a private message with decent descriptions and names of the individuals who have hastled you..... I'll be glad to do what I can to source them... and then get the situation remedied. This is the right place to reach out... the angle is a little off since most of us are the embassadors of the 4x4 community.

Hopefully we can help you out and I look forward to visiting in the near future!

Sincerely,
Phil Licciardi

I have one question though: Pierce Creek OHV shows a loop, I was under the impression this was a FS Rd., not a private one. If it is Private, then we should only use it with permission, but I think this may be where the confusion lies in respects to your sled hill.

That map shows my entire 1/4 section parcel. From the red marks on the triangle of land above my parcel, to the blue I-80 on the bottom center of the map -- the lower right quarter of section 14.

However, the Federal Government paid $250 for the perpetual right to a public easement through my property (it is the backwards "S" right through the center of my parcel).

By the way, contrary to what some of you have indicated to me that you think, I am not rich. I am a life-long Truckee boy who bought this land with $60k down, cashed in my retirement account, and racked up $160k in credit card debt to get where I am now -- a break even business and having to be supported by my Dental Hygienist wife.

So is this the road you are referring to in regards to the sled hill?

I believe the black and green Rd.'s going through your property are public easements?

Mike is one hell of a nice guy and we owe him a huge one from a few years back, he saved some of our asses in a blizzard (another story). Please nobody jump to conclusions and be quick to judge.

Thanks for vouching for my character. If everyone was like the Rock Zombies, I would be plowing the entrance to the trail head instead of thinking of berming it in.

I misjudged you guys at first too, and you were my lesson to take each guy as an individual and not stereotype Jeepers as one indistinct group.

So is this the road you are referring to in regards to the sled hill?

I believe the black and green Rd.'s going through your property are public easements?

The black is the easement and the green is the road I built, with collaboration with the Forest Service, out of an old skid road to bypass my lower section of the property and stop non 4x4s from accessing the river because the FS is attempting to limit access to OHV vehicles, since the other three quarter sections of section 14 were bought with green sticker funds.

So do we tell people not to use the Green Rd. I guess is my point.

We Don't want you to fight against us! We want to work with you. In my mind, Fordyce is the best trail out there and we are willing to help secure our future!


Mike Please give us some more examples on projects that we can help you with to better accommodate the parking needs, the user issues, and the vandalism!

We are all on your side.

The RockZombies and the pirate4x4 community are willing to help in any means necessary! :D

Brenden

Brenden,

I know you are coming up this weekend so lets plan to get together and talk a bit. I am sure we can come up with ideas to work together. The big thing is that everything needs to be reported, and you need to ask for a copy of the report, so it gets logged. We are in danger of losing law enforcement resources because of budget constraints and the Sheriffs have said that the call volume indicated the Summit is not a problem area (0.6 calls per week).

Some long term staging area solution is part of the answer (budget in every jurisdiction are tight however) and stepped up enforcement (with teeth). I am going to be doing a tour of the Summit with Lt. Petitt, Commander of the Gold Run CHP (he has said open roadways in Winter is his number one issue) to determine where better signage is needed before ticketing and towing is implemented. He now has an overtime officer assigned on weekends just to keeping the side roads from Gold Run to Boreal open on Winter weekends.

I welcome working with the responsible members of the Jeeper community and maybe together we can mitigate the effects of the Yahoos.

some of your statements seemed like direct threats and we dont respond well to threats.

As I said I do feel threatened physically and financially and I was attempting to encourage dialogue by expressing my full willingness to pursue a path of "Mutually Assured Destruction" if we could not work things out.

I regret now that I came on so strong, because it appears that I am dialoguing with the "good guys" -- but the "bad guys" could ruin things for your entire community (like on the Rubicon) and adversely effect your access.

However, with no malice intended :) (see I am smiling) I will protect my personal safety and property.

So do we tell people not to use the Green Rd. I guess is my point.

All of the proposed OHV Road Use options the USFS is considering, recommend closing the green (unofficial easement) and black (recorded easement) to Winter use, so yes in the Winter I would prefer you didn't use the road so that I can use my road for Snowshoeing, XC Skiing and Sledding.

In the Summer, but I am thinking you guys are not the ones I am having problems with. I don't have any problem with quiet, minimal dust, reasonable speed, sticking to the trail and not driving up areas I am trying to revegetate, no parking, no camping, no fire building, travel through my property. It is your legal right. Just remember it is my home and I ask you to be so kind as to show some respect and maybe go the extra mile to communicate support for me to the Yahoos.

I ask that you don't stop when you get to the pavement in front of my green gate. That is not public land and it is the entrance to my business. Continue on to where the county road ends (you can tell because there is a sign "End of County Maintained Road", pull off to the side, air up, tell trail stories, and smile at my nervous guests, who might be inclined to be afraid of you because you drive big trucks and they are prejudiced.

If you are going to go down through the green gate to check out my home, please get out and say "Hi" and don't just do a "drive by" and speed away when I walk up to your vehicles. This is my home after all and think about how you would like me to act if I drove into your driveway to check out your house. Part of my frustration is that people act like I am a crazy homeless man with a dirty squeegee when I come up to see why you are in my driveway. It is my home, it is my right to come up to your vehicle. Just be friendly and a little humble and we will be fine.

I work for a national construction supply company and we actually have a facility that makes signs at our Reno location. If there is anything I can do to help from a signage perspective I would be happy to donate my company discount to help get anything you need from the signage standpoint.

All of the proposed OHV Road Use options the USFS is considering, recommend closing the green (unofficial easement) and black (recorded easement) to Winter use, so yes in the Winter I would prefer you didn't use the road so that I can use my road for Snowshoeing, XC Skiing and Sledding.

Ok, with that in mind, the DEIS and potential closure of the area, I should tell you that we did write in during the comment period to ask that the area stay open (oops), because we do use it in the winter for snow wheeling.

We were unaware that you had made it into a private sno-park for your guests.

Apparently, because it is on the FS map as a legal OHV recreation area and legal FS trail... we assumed it was open.

Ya know a annual friends of Fordyce rally held at Shinneyboo would be good for all of us. Huh Bret and Mike?

Apparently, because it is on the FS map as a legal OHV recreation area and legal FS trail... we assumed it was open.

It is still legally open and you don't need to honor my wishes, however I do need to use the section near the green gate as a snow storage spot (it is very easy to push large amounts of snow straight down the road).

If it is closed in the future, I don't know how FS plans to enforce it. Although my rusted metal gate is where my road veers off the easement and I do have the right to lock it (but I suspect someone will simple tie a chain to it and drag it over).

It is still legally open and you don't need to honor my wishes, however I do need to use the section near the green gate as a snow storage spot (it is very easy to push large amounts of snow straight down the road).

If it is closed in the future, I don't know how FS plans to enforce it. Although my rusted metal gate is where my road veers off the easement and I do have the right to lock it (but I suspect someone will simple tie a chain to it and drag it over).

Honoring your wishes is one thing, which we certainly can do....but I was just trying to point out why there was confusion on the part of us who do read maps so we that we can legally recreate responsibly. This could be why people are using it against your wishes.

My point was no one is deliberately trespassing, the maps say it is open to OHV use, regardless of season (for now).

I guess I'll need to Contact TNF to find out if it is a FS trail (as shown on the map) or a private road. They get these things messed up a lot. And it nobody's fault, just an error on the map if that is the case.

If it's a private road the FS will ask you to gate it, permanently.

If its a FS trail, they will gate it and ask you to apply for a permit to use it, and give you a key.

Either way, those who recreate responsibly won't be tearing down.

We didn't know that's what you had in mind for that road, now we do.

Just trying to work out the details...to get the message clear to the folks who use it here.

Thanks :)

My point was no one is deliberately trespassing, the maps say it is open to OHV use, regardless of season (for now).

Either way, those who recreate responsibly won't be tearing down.


I am sorry if my tone didn't carry through on the last email (I guess that is where these come in handy :D).

It is private property which the FS has a legal easement thru, which I suspect makes it an official, open FS trail (I am not as up on actual designation differences as you appear to be). No one sticking to the easement is trespassing by using it now. I have no recourse at this time to stop anyone from accessing my property at any time of year. I didn't expect you to know my wishes before hand (neither one of us is clairvoyant) and quite frankly any discussion about what I might want on my own land is far more than I expected coming to this forum, and I am grateful for your solicitation of my preferences. If the Friends of the Fordyce would support closing it in the Winter and advocate limited and responsible use of it in the Summer then they would have a friend in me.

Also, I was not attempting to accuse responsible users of being willing to tear it down. That activity would be a Yahoo and neither one of us could control it. I was attempting to communicate my reasoning as to why locked gates are not an option that I intend on trying to implement (not to mention my need to keep free and open access to my business).

"(We) have little interest in your property" is not quite accurate. Everyday I have 10 or more 4x4 vehicles drive into my front yard. My property goes all the way down and over the river to past the bottom gate and you seem to all want to come back up my property in the Winter and drive over (and ruin) my sled hill. In the Summer you park your rigs all over my property and leave your vehicles parked under no parking private property signs. I understand that this is not all of you, however to me it is a distinction without a difference.



Very well. I appreciate you answering my more pointed questions. :D

All of my posts were in response to the comment above.

Take care!

I'll be bringing a group in Feb. 7th. If I run into you (figuratively of course :D ) I will stop and say Hi:)

Bebe

I've been watching this thread.

Not to make light of your situation, but thought a bit of humor would be good.

fixed:

I've been watching this thread.

Not to make light of your situation, but thought a bit of humor would be good.

Funny, but not an accurate depiction of my feelings about the Rock Zombies -- something more like.

"Tell the women and children it is safe to come out -- the Rock Zombie Calvary is coming!"

So I think I'm map retarded and I just want to clarify.

If someone exits i80 and heads down the paved road towards your place... then turns right, off the pavement on to the dirt road that goes directly to the staging area.... does that get pretty close to your place....

or are some people just driving all the way down the paved road... onto your freshly built road...through the cabins then cutting in some other way? If so, that's so not cool.

I never paid attention to the proximity of your place (ie. cabins, house, business area) to the trail as I know it.... I'll need to get more familiar w/ that.

Phil,

The road to Shinneyboo Resort is not depicted on that map. The green and black lines, (green = FS trail) (black = FS road) going through the white square surrounded by the green squares.

The road to the Shinneyboo Resort is clearly marked and visible to the right of the black rd. when you are headed down Eagle Lakes Rd.

His property is only the white square. FS and Pierce OHV are in the surrounding green squares.

I used a map from the Shinneyboo site to understand where he is.


http://www.shinneyboocreek.com/page3.html

Sorry I was welding some stainless... makes ya crazy. I looked at the map again and see where the trail is.


So people ARE driving right through his place. I had no idea that road went anywhere other than to his place. There has to be a way to end that in a hurry. Hopefully I'll be there w/ Brenden this weekend and we can nail down some good ideas!

Sorry I was welding some stainless... makes ya crazy. I looked at the map again and see where the trail is.


So people ARE driving right through his place. I had no idea that road went anywhere other than to his place. There has to be a way to end that in a hurry. Hopefully I'll be there w/ Brenden this weekend and we can nail down some good ideas!

Only if they make a right under the Shinneyboo sign.

Here is his driveway, black top off the brown line.

The second pic is of 2 brown lines, which is the same as the green and the black lines in the FS map.

yep... that road wasn't done last time I went all the way to his place. it was cut but still blocked I believe.

the other three quarter sections of section 14 were bought with green sticker funds.

...the FS is attempting to limit access to OHV vehicles



So they purchased the land with green sticker money and now they want to keep OHV's out of it?

:shaking:


Anyhow... Shinneyboo- have you thought about building a parking area that has somewhat limited access and charging people to park in a secure area, similar to what the campground at Cisco does?

This could help both you and the OHV community as far as parking problems and security, as well as maybe put a few bucks in your pocket for your trouble.

I don't tow/park, so I don't really care. Just a thought.

Also, where is the Sacramento PITS property in relation to yours? I have a friend who parks his tow rig and trailer there when he brings his buggy up. From his description it was in the same vicinity of your property (end of the road near the power lines).

So they purchased the land with green sticker money and now they want to keep OHV's out eof it?

:shaking:


I'm not exactly positive about this, but I don't think they can, or if they do, they have to replace it with something else.

They meaning Tahoe National Forest and the Off Highway Motor Vehicle Division.

So I think I'm map retarded and I just want to clarify.

If someone exits i80 and heads down the paved road towards your place... then turns right, off the pavement on to the dirt road that goes directly to the staging area.... does that get pretty close to your place....

or are some people just driving all the way down the paved road... onto your freshly built road...through the cabins then cutting in some other way? If so, that's so not cool.

I never paid attention to the proximity of your place (ie. cabins, house, business area) to the trail as I know it.... I'll need to get more familiar w/ that.
If you turn right just past the Indian Springs Campground and don't cross the river and come back on the South Side then you do not go on my property at all, and as long as you don't stage in the middle of the road, I am cool.

Only if they make a right under the Shinneyboo sign.

Here is his driveway, black top off the brown line.

The second pic is of 2 brown lines, which is the same as the green and the black lines in the FS map.
The entire white square is me. The right only goes into a dead end road to the cabins which there is no public easement thru, but my property touches I-80 and cross over the South Yuba.

So they purchased the land with green sticker money and now they want to keep OHV's out of it?

:shaking:


Anyhow... Shinneyboo- have you thought about building a parking area that has somewhat limited access and charging people to park in a secure area, similar to what the campground at Cisco does?

This could help both you and the OHV community as far as parking problems and security, as well as maybe put a few bucks in your pocket for your trouble.

I don't tow/park, so I don't really care. Just a thought.

Also, where is the Sacramento PITS property in relation to yours? I have a friend who parks his tow rig and trailer there when he brings his buggy up. From his description it was in the same vicinity of your property (end of the road near the power lines).
The green OHV property is completely accessible through the Indian Springs Trail Head. It is not necessary to go through my property at all to access all the OHV area. My land is only used to complete the loop back to enhance your 4x4 experience.

As far as a parking lot, I don't have the money to grade and/or pave one. Would I need to secure it, or patrol it. Would it just bring more traffic to my parcel when I am trying to offer a remote experience. But most of all, it is just not the business I am in.

The PITS property is through my parcel but you turn left through the yellow gate up where I keep my (vandalized) boom truck and my Sister's (broken into) storage container.

His property is only the white square. FS and Pierce OHV are in the surrounding green squares.

The entire white square is me.

Thanks, I intimated that in a previous post. :D:D

The green OHV property is completely accessible through the Indian Springs Trail Head. It is not necessary to go through my property at all to access all the OHV area. My land is only used to complete the loop back to enhance your 4x4 experience.

As far as a parking lot, I don't have the money to grade and/or pave one. Would I need to secure it, or patrol it. Would it just bring more traffic to my parcel when I am trying to offer a remote experience. But most of all, it is just not the business I am in.

The PITS property is through my parcel but you turn left through the yellow gate up where I keep my (vandalized) boom truck and my Sister's (broken into) storage container.

The black road on the map was put in so that hikers could drive/access the Grouse Ridge Trail head up by Pierce Meadow.

I remember a project where the WeBilt Club helped rebuild the footbridge that was collapsing over the creek back in September of 2003:

http://webilt.com/footbridge/footbridge.html

We have a history of helping others, whether it benefits us or not :D

I remember a project where the WeBilt Club helped rebuild the footbridge that was collapsing over the creek back in September of 2003:
Thanks, that is a great bridge. It is a bit upriver from the Pierce Meadow road. My guests tend to be too lazy to get that far into the back country anyway.

Thanks, that is a great bridge. It is a bit upriver from the Pierce Meadow road. My guests tend to be too lazy to get that far into the back country anyway.

:laughing:

"The starting point of what I want to express is that Eagle Lakes Road is not your staging area."

Truth. All the 4 wheelers should know that it is not legal to park tow rigs on Eagle Lakes Road."


"If all of this could be accomplished, then I would be very supportive of the jeeping community."


Excuse my poor quoting and editing. My point is, after reading all the posting that went on while I was at work banging tin is that we have a starting point and I think agree on the fact that the people responding here want to work together!

Michael PM'd me his phone number and wants to talk. I intend to give hime a call tomorrow and get this going.

Rock Zombies:

Sounds like you and Michael have a good history and we need your help in getting us all on the same page. Please consider me one of your brothers in arms as my tow rig used to belong to one of your founding members.:D

Event with the FOF at Shinneyboo?

I LIKE IT!!

Bret

I will help out in anyway possible for this....I can set post for road signs, put the signs up, really anything to help this situation out...Im a construction superintendent I have some buddies that are in civil engineering maybe if we can get the right spot picked up there I can help get some plans drawn up for a staging area to submit to the forest service, if we can drum up some funds and get people with tractors to donate some time maybe we can get this done, I say we talk to Mike maybe he will let us use his property for some fund raisers up there this summer to get the money for it....something similar to the cantina at the con', get some vendors out there, do raffles, doantions, food, etc. and get the word out...idk just a thought

Mike! would you be willing to lend some land for events like this up there it may be profitable for you also?

Mike! would you be willing to lend some land for events like this up there it may be profitable for you also?
Yes, I am willing to talk about this. I keep trying to remind myself that I am an entrepreneur, not a bureaucrat. The State SnoPark program has money and might be a possibility.

For those of you who still might think I am rich because I own 160 acres of land (or so the bank lets me think). Here is something my mother sent me because it reminded her of me.
--------------
A man owned a small farm in Saskatchewan.
The Saskatchewan Provincial Wage & Hours Department claimed he was not paying proper wages to his help and sent an agent out to interview him.

'I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them,' demanded the agent.

'Well,' replied the farmer, 'there's my farm hand who's been with me for 3 years. I pay him $200 a week plus free room and board.

The cook has been here for 18 months, and I pay her $150 per week plus free room and board.

Then there's the half-wit. He works about 18 hours every day and does about 90% of all the work around here. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of bourbon every Saturday night. He also gets to occasionally sleep with my wife about twice a year.'

'That's the guy I want to talk to ... the half-wit,' says the agent.

'That would be me,' replied the farmer.

Yes, I am willing to talk about this. I keep trying to remind myself that I am an entrepreneur, not a bureaucrat. The State SnoPark program has money and might be a possibility.

Awesome, I look foward to working with you on this Im sure a lot of people on here do!

'That's the guy I want to talk to ... the half-wit,' says the agent.

'That would be me,' replied the farmer.

LMAO:laughing: Well said!

You guys are like some underground secret government or something.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,484326,00.html

I assure you we had nothing to do with that. We do not have any memebers in Texas.
Our name came about in a way becasue back in 1999/2000 when the club was created, we were known for being zombie(esch) being up late, wheeling and partying. etc.. and the Rock part, well that is self explanitory.

BTW, MIKE, I know Brenden has not called you yet, he is procrastinating, but a few of us are still planning on coming Sat for the weekend..

RZ

Brenden called ............. I thought it was pretty weird to see that news article after the post from R290 which was computer generated, but that very day this real one happened. Freaky.
Def, strange....

Yes, I am willing to talk about this. I keep trying to remind myself that I am an entrepreneur, not a bureaucrat. The State SnoPark program has money and might be a possibility.

For those of you who still might think I am rich because I own 160 acres of land (or so the bank lets me think). Here is something my mother sent me because it reminded her of me.
--------------
A man owned a small farm in Saskatchewan.
The Saskatchewan Provincial Wage & Hours Department claimed he was not paying proper wages to his help and sent an agent out to interview him.

'I need a list of your employees and how much you pay them,' demanded the agent.

'Well,' replied the farmer, 'there's my farm hand who's been with me for 3 years. I pay him $200 a week plus free room and board.

The cook has been here for 18 months, and I pay her $150 per week plus free room and board.

Then there's the half-wit. He works about 18 hours every day and does about 90% of all the work around here. He makes about $10 per week, pays his own room and board, and I buy him a bottle of bourbon every Saturday night. He also gets to occasionally sleep with my wife about twice a year.'

'That's the guy I want to talk to ... the half-wit,' says the agent.

'That would be me,' replied the farmer.


hahahha nice..... you might have a pretty decent amount of business year round w/ the off-road community, but we've kind of kept your place to ourselves because we weren't sure if it would mess up the other aspects of the resort. Maybe there's a hooligan lodge in your future :D slap a big shack together at the farthest corner of the land.... then build a large wall between that and the rest of your business :grinpimp: Might be a money maker! gamble gamble gamble.... that's what the business world is all about today. Good fun :D

Being part of FOF & an avid wheeler, I'm all for helping out/volunteering if FOF needs help making sure this all works out.

Ecv 49/86

Technically he does own the road. But there is an easement making a big S through his place. There is always two sides to every story, but thats not the point. We need to all work together and have some mutual understanding.

Technically he does own the road. But there is an easement making a big S through his place. There is always two sides to every story, but thats not the point. We need to all work together and have some mutual understanding.

Technically he doesn't own the road. He owns the land that the road is on and the USFS has a public easement for said road, which means it is open to public use.

Technically he doesn't own the road. He owns the land that the road is on and the USFS has a public easement for said road, which means it is open to public use.

I don't want to split hairs here. I total agree, he owns the land the road is on and there is a public easement through his place which allows anybody to cross his property to gain access to (edit) public land on the other side.

This guy is a nut case! About a month ago he called the CHP on a bunch of us and told the cop that I said i was going to kick his A@@s. He lied! When the CHP showed up and talked to us he told me that the guy is a PITA and to try to get where we are heading to ASAP. He told me the only thing we were doing wrong was IF we block the road. We were not! I didn't even take the time to air down because of this nut so all i did is get stuck :D . He thinks he owns the road. And he is a unreasonable person! I will avoid this guy as much as i can. I am a law abiding citizen, never been in any kind of trouble and i have no intention of letting this guy tell me when i can run this trail! He pointed out in his starting post that he "(I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way)" I take as a warning and a THREAT! Dont stop or park on Eagle Lakes Road and he can go :flipoff2: himself!

ECV 49/86


I understand your frustration but at this point we need to work together, and a post calling him a nut case isn't gonna help anything at this point, how would you feel if people repeatidly disrespected your property and well being!!!

He doesn't own the road to the Fordyce trail head. He does plow it all though, on his own nickel, for himself and his customers. His property doesn't start until quite a ways further down, well past the bridge. Look at the maps. Its pretty obvious.

AFAIK, most of the problems have been happening on the public portion of the road between the Fordyce trail turn off and the freeway, and many of the problems are flatlanders trying to go sledding, etc.

I don't think there is a whole lot of OHV traffic on the Pierce Meadow trail across his property compared to Fordyce, *especially* in the winter. In fact, there weren't even any wheeled vehicle tracks on that trail until a week and a half ago when a friend and I went through. We had plenty of space by the snow pile near the cabins to air up without blocking the road too, thank you.

I was also on Fordyce the weekend after Christmas and a Sheriff's deputy was there making sure people weren't blocking the road. The impression I got from him was that the cabin owner was a PITA also. He said, "I'll let you through, but DO NOT park on the road because I don't want any more calls from him!"

I can understand the frustration though. There is no good reason for people to block the road. I passed up several other roads I was going to go snow wheeling on that day because sledders had them blocked! Stopping in the middle of the road (or trail) to air up or to sit around BS'ing is no good either. Its simply disrespectful of anybody else trying to get through. Its a ROAD, not a parking spot! I'd be pissed if I was in Shinneyboo's shoes too.

I think some "Do not block roadway or face towing/fines" type signs all along the roadway might be helpful to inform the clueless. Heck, even some temporary ones stuck in the snow for now would probably help!

Just like i said i would Bebe. All gone.

His property doesn't start until quite a ways further down, well past the bridge. Look at the maps. Its pretty obvious.

Doh I just zoomed out on the map link (http://www.shinneyboocreek.com/page3.html)posted above :homer: I won't be voted navigator of the year:flipoff2:

well I see the guys point and all, it's a fustrating issue.
I had taken my son new years weekend up to Fordyce and witnessed this guy blocking the road in a white truck with plow, screaming at people who had turned up the road looking for a place to play with there children.
I was a few cars back and could hear him screaming in the face of a father and car load of kids calling them deadbeats and freeloaders. The father turned around and stoped next to me and said forget going that way, he said if he didn't have his family with him he would have dropped that dude. so at that point I told my son we had to go somewhere else this guy is about to snap.. I felt really bad for both partys. I pray you don't scream in the face of someone more pissed off then you life is short my friend. Have you ever thought of making a secure staging area on your land for the 4X4's and charge a fee? I have checked out your place and would love to stay there and hit the trails in the day. Maybe cater to the 4x4 people since the staging area for fordyce in tough to get a trailer into.. Maybe offer your guest a 4x4 trip package like they do in tahoe..
Maybe a little store with supplys Oil duct tape u joints???? Good luck..


Just my 2 cents..

Well I see it didn't take long for all the poor sports to show up in this thread... :shaking: It is not a big deal. Mike came here to be peacefull and to find a resolution to the issue. He has a business and lively hood to protect. Put the crappy experiance aside. Go meet him and shake his hand. Discuss the issue. I'm sure a happy resolution can be worked out that will be benefical to all parties involved..

Just my .02..

Oh and careful with the "me and my law enforcement friends" angle..... I'm just say'n. :)

Well I see it didn't take long for all the poor sports to show up in this thread... :shaking: It is not a big deal. Mike came here to be peacefull and to find a resolution to the issue. He has a business and lively hood to protect. Put the crappy experiance aside. Go meet him and shake his hand. Discuss the issue. I'm sure a happy resolution can be worked out that will be benefical to all parties involved..

Just my .02..

Oh and Madjeeper622, careful with the "me and my law enforcement friends" angle..... I'm just say'n. :)

Thank you!

Mike did come here for a peace agreement not to continue the ignorance of past issues, thats what were here to resolve, if you want the guy to apologize calling him out is not the way to get it. If you were repeatidly stepped on by people over the years you would probably react the same way Mike has, look at how good he feels about the zombies! maybe its the other parties approach when Mike first confronts people that sparks this negativity. Let the past be the past and lets move foward together to keep this an enjoyable expierience for everyone. Maybe Mike should come block your driveway and see how you react!!!

I can understand the frustration though. There is no good reason for people to block the road. I passed up several other roads I was going to go snow wheeling on that day because sledders had them blocked! Stopping in the middle of the road (or trail) to air up or to sit around BS'ing is no good either. Its simply disrespectful of anybody else trying to get through. Its a ROAD, not a parking spot! I'd be pissed if I was in Shinneyboo's shoes too.

I think some "Do not block roadway or face towing/fines" type signs all along the roadway might be helpful to inform the clueless. Heck, even some temporary ones stuck in the snow for now would probably help!

Highway 4 up above Arnold has major issues from too many sledders, vehicle parking, & the plowing of various roads.

They created several "snow parks" in a few areas (Spicer turn off & at the road closure above the ski resort). They require a snow park permit from Nov 1- April 1. It costs $5 a day, and allows you to park in designated areas. IIRC it's a $70 fine if you park without a permit.

You do not need a permit to park on many of the forrest road/turn outs. However you have to park legally and not block the road. They do issue tickets for that as well.

he can go :flipoff2: himself!

ECV 49/86
I thought it was all a little too "cumbiya". This is the reaction I expected when I first came on this forum. This is the one of the two guy who physically threatened me this year, and the reason I considered putting a 20 foot wall of snow (the road would be technically open) on the trailhead of the Fordyce and the reason I got a concealed weapon permit. I am not a PITA, I will defend my life and property.

This guy and his friends with a white Suzuki Samari (it might have been a jeep, but you get the idea) kept trying to follow after the rigs who went in with the big tires and keep getting stuck. Over and over they tried and each time they had to pull out a tow rope and block both lanes of ELR to pull out the next guy. Then they decided to daisy chain all the vehicles together to get in to the trail. For over three hours they sat at the trailhead, blocking traffic, refusing to move when my guests got out and asked to go by.

I started out trying to tell them it was illegal to block the road and they basically told me to :flipoff2: off. Yes, I lost it on them.

I had taken my son new years weekend up to Fordyce and witnessed this guy blocking the road in a white truck with plow, screaming at people who had turned up the road looking for a place to play with there children .. if he didn't have his family with him he would have dropped that dude ... Maybe cater to the 4x4 people
The guys you saw me yelling at was madjeeper662 and his friends and yes I lost it. I turned way over 200 cars that weekend who were "just looking for a place to play with their children". The CHP got stuck at Yuba Gap for two hours and could not get back to I-80. Eagle Lake Road is not a snow park and I block the road when I need to in order to keep my business open because otherwise I would be out of business. However, I do let jeepers by who have vehicles that can get back into the Fordyce, based on conditions, after informing them that they can't stage on ELR.

Every weekend I have inconsiderate people who "would drop me" if it wasn't for their kids, simply because I won't let them illegally play on the road that I have to plow.

"maybe cater to 4x4 people" Are you serious?

Highway 4 up above Arnold has major issues from too many sledders, vehicle parking, & the plowing of various roads.

They created several "snow parks" in a few areas (Spicer turn off & at the road closure above the ski resort). They require a snow park permit from Nov 1- April 1. It costs $5 a day, and allows you to park in designated areas. IIRC it's a $70 fine if you park without a permit.

You do not need a permit to park on many of the forrest road/turn outs. However you have to park legally and not block the road. They do issue tickets for that as well.
There is a group of community members working on this issue. The problem is it involves county and FS easements, snow removal contracts, bathrooms, trash, and enforcement for free riders who don't pay, or park where they are not supposed to. Hopefully by next year we will have some solutions. One idea is to make Eagle Lakes Road a fee based snow park. We fully believe, especially in these tough times, that families should have places to play in the snow inexpensively. The problem is they don't exist now and people are sledding on roadways and even, over New Years, two weeks after one woman died, people are letting their kids sled on the railroad tracks.

Just so all of you involved in make threats to each other, understand that making threats can be construed an illegal act if "one makes a 'terrorist' threat if one threatens to commit a violent crime for the purpose of terrorizing another or of causing public panic."

Forgive me Bret,

If this were my forum, and it's not, I would ask that you remove all references to "dropping people" or "bearing arms" as it is essentially illegal. IMHO.

Bebe

Just so all of you involved in make threats to each other, understand that making threats can be construed an illegal act if "one makes a 'terrorist' threat if one threatens to commit a violent crime for the purpose of terrorizing another or of causing public panic."

Forgive me Bret,

If this were my forum, and it's not, I would ask that you remove all references to "dropping people" or "bearing arms" as it is essentially illegal. IMHO.

Bebe
Remove any thread you want, but you can't gloss over the fact that this is what I am dealing with. I am making no threats. I am merely stating my intention to defend myself against this attitude and hostility.

This forum has probably served its purpose for me and I will stay off of it now to avoid getting in a flaming email war with this element of your community. :shaking:

I'm not saying this to un-do anything we have done in an effort to come to a consensus.

I just think it would far more constructive if everyone stopped with the "gun" thing.

You will always be welcome here. Make no mistake, we are looking forward to working with you.

One last thing before I go. I would like to thank all the reasonable, constructive, conscientious folks on this forum. I will be in touch with the Friends of the Fordyce and the Rock Zombies and others who want to find some solutions to all of this. But I am so "shell shocked" (is that OK to say?:confused:) at this point that an internet forum will not serve my desire to be constructive.

I hope this has taught me to deal with the 4x4 community one-by-one as they come and not smear all of you with the same brush. If any of you come across me "losing it" on the road with the likes of madjeeper666, please talk me down. Unfortunately, I have to continue to work the road until I am able to get the proper authorities to step up and do their jobs (however, madjeeper666's relaying of Reserve Deputy Sheriff Bobby Meredith's comment to him about me, shows you what I am up against there).
Peace. God bless.

Just when things seem to be going to a positive direction it gets off track. :shaking: If we want to keep this thread alive stop the ANY and ALL threats or “he said…she said”. Discussion on solving the problem is the only this that will be tolerated here. Nuff said.

This is a clear opportunity for improved signage, but you will almost certainly have to replace signs that get vandalized by losers. Signs take a while to 'season' and become accepted, so plan ahead.

The sign might highlight the following points:
* Welcome Shinneyboo Creek Resort patrons and the greater public
* You are traversing a privately-maintained public road that leads to a well-marked private road and provides access to an unmaintained right-of-way
* Do not obstruct the road!

You'll also need to mark the junction of public/private roads -- don't assume that customers, sledders, and 'wheelers will know. This sign might say:
* Welcome Shinneyboo Creek Resort patrons and OHV Recreationists
* Turn around if you are not visiting Shinneyboo Creek Resort or accessing the 4x4-only right-of-way
* You are now traversing a privately-maintained public road that provides access to Shinneyboo Creek Resort and an unmaintained 4x4-only right-of-way.
* The owners of Shinneyboo Creek do not allow sledding or snow-play other than to guests -- you are entering private property, with a limited right-of-passage to the roadway, but not the private property through which it travels.
* Do not obstruct the road!

In my opinion, it is unreasonable to expect patrons (or not!) to know what is private and what is public, and how the rules of access, through passage, and snow-play change in each area. I'll put my money where my mouth is and volunteer to print up a ream of each kind of sign you desire -- I have easy access to 8.5x11" paper and 11x17" paper. If you provide the plastic sleeves, plexi covers, or lamination, I suspect that this will last you through a full season of communication.

You'll still have to deal with folks too illiterate or lazy too read, and folks who just don't care, but I suspect this will simplify your situation significantly.

I sincerely hope this helps -- I find signs and communications VASTLY preferable to gunplay and threats.

Randii
Randy Burleson
randii@4x4Wire.com

I cant believe this thread started to go this way.....it started out a little rough and started to go really well with a lot of people that want to help out, now we get to play he said and she said.....wheres the love here were all after the same thing so lets work towards it instead of dividing us further.

I can't believe it either. I talked to Michael at length last night and he seemed like a reasonable guy. He definitely has his business and his area and neighbors as his first concern but then again he has never been anything but honest and up front about that since he started posting.

I too am tired of the threats on this forum. It all means exactly nothing to me except to make me conerned about somene getting hurt. There are no facts being presented but I am leaving all posts intact as of now (sorry Bebe) because I think it serves to illustrate the issue and the emotions involved.

My main problem here is that I am serving a dual roll. I am President of the Friends or Fordyce and am thereby concerned with the trail and whatever overlap this issue and the trail share. On the other hand as moderator I am supposed to keep order in the forum regardless of what how is affects the FOF.

I suppose I'll address it this way. As head of the FOF I will work to resolve this issue, on line and in person, where it concerns the well being of the Fordyce Trail. As moderator of the Fordyce Forum I am going to ask that the vague threats stop now and that anything other that possible solutions to this conflict are not posted here.

Michael, if you have legal rights that are being violated you need to pursue the solution as you see fit, legally. If anyone legally recreating up there feels their rights are being violated they also need to seek legal and peaceful means of resolution.

"maybe cater to 4x4 people" Are you serious?
I am seriously suggesting catering to OHV.

Many OHVers spend tens of thousands of dollars on our rides, tow rigs, and trailers. We have money, a desire to use our OHVs, and a willingness to pay to do so. Our recreational opportunity continues to decrease because of spotted this and snowy that, and anti-recreation closurists who refer to share the few feet of land through which our narrow routes travel, when they have 95% of the rest of the forest reserved for themselves!

Many of us are family folks -- having us staying at your resort could put money in your pockets and surround you with allies. If the word got out that Shinneyboo Creek Resort was filled with OHV enthusiasts, the tweakers that troll the I-80 corridor might leave you and your guests alone, and go in search of easier targets... hopefully closer to the law enforcement that they so richly deserve to meet.

There are increasingly few place for OHV-ers to legally ride -- I think Shinneyboo Creek is well-situated near Pierce Creek OHV area, Fordyce Trail, Signal Peak, and the Tahoe National Forest, and that you have good possibilities of expanding your clientele if you reach out to OHV users.

Randii

Randii,

I agree with you and I think Mike is willing to open his doors now to the OHV user, at first he put us in the same pot until talking with a few of us, and like he replied earlier to me he would be open to us using his land to host an event for fundraising for this situation and other needs of improvment in the area that can benifit him and us, we need to continue to work with Mike and for the negative people out there keep it to yourself and off this forum like Bret said please! We want to work with landowners in the forest to keep access to trails open not agaisnt them it only gives our ever so democratic government more reason to shut places like this down, expecially if it escalates to the point that public safety is a concern!

OK - I see now where this tread went...

Let me tell you a story about the first time I met Mike

The Zombies went on a wheelin trip to fordyce, parked on the side of the road, came out 3 days later, dumped 5 feet of snow, to find our tow rigs sealed into the side of the embankment! .. . .

We completely fawked up the road, drove over the sides, pushed snow into the middle, high tailed it back and forth. And finally here comes Mike in his F250 with a plow in front. He stops the truck, gets out, starts yelling at the top of his lungs.... I couldn't believe it. I had no idea anyone even lived down that road... I could see the frustration coming out!

Well, to make a really long story short, He saved our asses out there. If it weren't for him, HIS backhoe, we would have been stuck there for at least another day or two. Mike came through, it was a disaster!!! Ever since then I have all the respect in the world for who he is and what he does! If you can't follow his way, get the F out!!!

He does ALL the work around those parts and as far as I am concerned he has more right to be there than us. He has put everything on the line to do his own thing and try to run a business.

Mike, we WILL work with you. we ARE on your side. after talking extensively with you everything is clear, and we all need to come together on this and it needs to happen soon.

We will be meeting with eachother soon to figure out a game plan. Please keep us involved and in the loop!

Best Regards,
Brenden

Wow I had no idea all this was happening. I hope a solution can be found so that Fordyce trail can remain open to responsible 4 wheels for years to come.

As of 2 days ago I didn't know anyone lived down Eagle Lakes. Education is a very powerful tool and hopefully more people come to sites such as Pirate 4x4 and can see the consequences of irresponsible behavior.

I'm sorry if my post came off as a finger pointing.. I would really love to stay at shinnyboo in fact I see it before ever finding the fordyce.. I would also be willing to donate some free time if needed to help out with whatever you guys come up with.

maybe cater to 4x4 people" Are you serious?

There is big $$$$ in it if done right.. Yes im serious!!!

Okay, I am map-challenged. If I drive down Eagle Lakes Rd, turn to the left at the end, and take the road to the staging area to the right, am I crossing his land or causing him any stress?

Highway 4 up above Arnold has major issues from too many sledders, vehicle parking, & the plowing of various roads.


yes they do!! this guy is essentially in the middle of highway 4 puting his chains on! i ALMOST took him out(accidentally of course). i dont know how, but we managed to squeeze between him and the big duallie coming down the road without a scratch, or injury...


im not sure if mike is the guy, but back in 2002(?) hwy 80 was shut down, in the summer, due to a huge forest fire. i had just hydroed my motor at a river crossing and my truck was dead. some friendly wheelers helped tow me and my pregnant wife out and then mike(?) let us stay on his property until 80 opened and i could get a tow out. the guy and a woman even offered us food and water(and me a couple of coronas :D ). if this was you mike, i thank you again!

I was just up there on Sat. with some Buddy's wheeling.
I talked with Mike on the phone for a bit, but he was in Truckee.
He does not want offer more then the business he currently is in. I can understand you have to pick your niche and stick with it.

I saw a couple signs that said no parking /tow away. With an car parked right next to the sign. :shaking: You know your heading into his place as you pass under the big sign and through the wrought iron gates.

My 2 cents on what could be done.
Add a sign before Eagle lakes exit promoting the snow park at the Cisco grove exit. ( this would help people know where to take there kids)

Add a couple big signs right at the trail head to Fordyce 1/2 mile before his place. Maybe something like OHV staging area with an arrow. ( this would help direct people to turn before his place.)

More signs that say no parking on the paved road might help, if they showed the amount of the fine, like they do at red lights that would get people attn..

your absolutely right! . . . And we need to have a parking staging area at the head of the trail. Something that could be maintained, sorta like the exit at Donner. There is a staging area for snow mobiles there, very accessable, paved, plowed and ready to go for at least 20-30 rigs. We need the top officials to get funding, designate it as a snow park, must have a pass to park. I don't mind paying a fee, IF I knew what the fees paid for. And Mike could bid to maintain it, by plowing it during winter months... keeping trafic off his area, and make some extra $$$ doing what he already does.

very interesting thread after reading all 4 pages of it, i'm hoping everything works out for mike and the wheeling community. to me it sounds like a pretty simple problem/solution, but it is the few who will blow it out of proportion and make it that much harder for the rest of us. I am glad he brought it to our attention. I am one who has never used the area before, but now I am informed a little more so into this situation. many of us have to deal with the private property/public easement issues on other pieces of land. I've learned about the areas that I wheel in and I know where I can legally go and park, etc. Much of this I have learned from either parking in an area than having somebody tell me hey I can't park there because it's private, so I simply know not to park there. Many of the areas that I have been I know I can't go places because of simple signs posted that inform me that the area is private. I respect it. Now if everybody else could recognize and do the same we'd definitely be living in a perfect world, which i know will not occur. but let's all keep working at this issue together, and other issues and stay strong and respectful as a 4 wheeling community.

You know...we were there in December...snow hit. It was actually too much for the quads to handle.

We tried to get to Pierce OHV the back way....and before Shineyboo...we ran into the infamous White truck stuck in the snow. We stayed there for 10 minutes...hoping the owner was around. We were willing to help get out the truck. It was clear a lot of shoveling had gone on.

Anyway...we decide to forge on...and run into the guy in the tractor...apparently coming for the truck. We stopped and offered to help....and he has totally rude. All we got was yelled at for riding up and down a snow covered road.

Let's face it....it's the granola crowd. Pretending to be in the "woods" (100 yards from I80). We are all stereotypically mean, rude, drive over everything.

God forbid.....he takes 10 seconds to evaluate people on a person by person basis.

And he could INCREASE business, if he used a portion of 160 acres to cater to us...instead of threats of violence. It's a resort NEXT TO AN OHV RIDING AREA!! It was an OHV area before it was bought. Do any homework???

This is the same mentality of the people who buy a house in the path of an airport...then bitch about the noise.

You know...we were there in December...snow hit. It was actually too much for the quads to handle.

We tried to get to Pierce OHV the back way....and before Shineyboo...we ran into the infamous White truck stuck in the snow. We stayed there for 10 minutes...hoping the owner was around. We were willing to help get out the truck. It was clear a lot of shoveling had gone on.

Anyway...we decide to forge on...and run into the guy in the tractor...apparently coming for the truck. We stopped and offered to help....and he has totally rude. All we got was yelled at for riding up and down a snow covered road.

Let's face it....it's the granola crowd. Pretending to be in the "woods" (100 yards from I80). We are all stereotypically mean, rude, drive over everything.

God forbid.....he takes 10 seconds to evaluate people on a person by person basis.

And he could INCREASE business, if he used a portion of 160 acres to cater to us...instead of threats of violence. It's a resort NEXT TO AN OHV RIDING AREA!! It was an OHV area before it was bought. Do any homework???

This is the same mentality of the people who buy a house in the path of an airport...then bitch about the noise.

This is a perfect example of what I deal with during storms. This guy and his friends were parked in the middle of road for what he admits was at least 10 minutes. That was the fourth time I got stuck that day, because the second set of chains for the front of my truck were broken, so I kept sliding into the bank every time I dug into the pack that comes from when you guys play in the berms -- I was cold, frustrated, hungry and tired. I had been plowing for about a week at that point with underpowered, raggedy old equipment, and you were about the hundredth group "hanging out" on the road that week.

I didn't need or want your help because I have a backhoe to pull myself out and I knew it would take me about 30 seconds. I told you I didn't need your help and you stayed park in my way as I tried to maneuver the backhoe to get the truck out without hitting your vehicles. I wasn't in the mood to sit around BSing with a bunch of guys on vacation (parked right in front of a no parking sign) -- I was working! If I stopped and chatted with everyone who drove into my front yard with time to burn, I would never get any work done.

I am not there to entertain you. It is my home and I resent when people drive down into my front yard acting like I own them some explanation.

I was born and raised in Truckee (almost 50 years) and we have been dealing with "flat-landers" forever. People stop and put their chains on in the middle of Donner Pass Road because it is nice and free of snow, completely unaware that we are trying to get to the store or take our kids to school. Just a tip from a local about mountain etiquette. Our roadways are not your playgrounds. We have to plow them in the winter (they don't get that way by magic) and we use them to get to and from our homes and businesses. We don't bust our balls to clear them to make you a free snow park. In fact, this is how seriously mountain folk take the matter -- if I hit your your parked car with my plow because you are stopped or parked illegally in the road, then you will pay to fix any damage to my truck.

Now, down in the valley you have lots of roads but we don't park on them to look at the pretty trees or play in the mud, so don't stop in the middle of our roadways to play, or you might run into a grumpy "non-granola eating" local. You are visitors in our communities, please use common sense and courtesy.

I really don't care what you do on the OHV area, but on the country roadway (not county playground), and on my property -- that I care about a lot.

On a positive side, I want thank those of you who have been quietly entering the OHV area without staging or stopping on the road. It has gotten a lot better. I am plowing the trail head for you now to assist in your ability to get off the road to air down, etc.

he has totally rude.
ATVObsession, Let me try to give you an example to let you try to see it from my point of view. Say you are laying under your rig wrenching in your own driveway, covered in grease, and you've whacked your knuckles in the same spot five times trying to free a stuck bolt. Three jeeps drive into your driveway and ten guys get out. "Hey, it looks like you hit your knuckles, want us to help you with that?" But the problem is that your wife needs to get to work and these guys are all blocking your driveway. You tell them to move their vehicles and they get all sensitive because you didn't ask nice enough.

Then imaging it happening ten times a day.

No, my research didn't tell me to expect this.

FYI The plowed road into my cabins does not follow the public easement, so if you drive on that road in the Winter, you are trespassing on my driveway.

Uhm, hold on a second Mike.

We were merely trying to be of some kind of help to you. We had NO idea who the frig you were or what you were doing. Please excuse our ignorance. And as far as us being 'parked' in your way, we were on our quads, with them RUNNING and moved out of your way so that you could get by. Our other vehicles were parked well off the road in the pull out by I-80 - right next to YOUR car - remember?? Matter of fact, you had parked your car in the turnout as if you owned the entire place. That's the feeling I'm getting from you from reading this too - you don't own that road, you just happen to own property at the end of it and have taken the responsibility to plow so that you can get to your property. I am fairly certain the county has not asked or forced you to plow Eagle Lakes Rd. (I could be wrong, and if so I apologize)

I understand your frustration, but please do not take it out on people who genuinely wanted to help you out. We had 3 quads, all with winches and offered to pull your truck out with them. How the hell were we to know you had a backhoe until we ran into you again??

I fully respect your property and would never dream of parking, camping, dumping or otherwise defacing it.

You told us that day that we were only 'allowed' to ride in the OHV area, and you made reference to 'berming' the entrance to the OHV area. Well, perhaps you should consider not doing that if you want to direct people there. And I think the FS might take issue with you blocking access to public lands. Maybe, the OHV/4WD community could contract with you to plow a small section of the entrance so that we could in fact get to the OHV area. (I'm just trying to come up with suggestions here)(EDIT: Sorry, I jsut noticed in your other post you said you're doing this, please disregard)


One other thing - the way you came off to us that day was nothing short of rude. You had no markings on your vehicle, only claimed to be 'responsible' for keeping the road clear and spouted off to us about what was legal and illegal. I'll use your driveway reference - you're working on your rig, I pull up in my truck and tell you that EPA regs state you must have some type of approved collection device if you're going to be working on your vehicle in your driveway. Then I drive off. What would you think? Yeah, that's what I thought. Exactly how you came off to us.

Now that we all know each other and understand the situation, we can surely empathize with you.

Also FYI, we know now that there is absolutely no place for us to go in that area, so we will no longer even attempt it with that much snow on the ground. Cisco Grove has been closed off to us as well. For our group, you won't see us again until the snow melts. Hopefully, at that point, we can make amends and help you out any way we are able. The only way any of us are going to benefit for this situation is to work together. Remember, OHVers and 4 wheelers bring money to your area, keeping the peace is only going to make it better for all of us.

Wow. Stereotyping, threats of violence, prejudice. It's all there.

I live 30 minutes down the hill. But I guess that makes me a "flatlander"? Excuse me while I hold my nose, because newsflash...it does indeed stink.

We were NOT parked on your property. We were parked 10 feet from the I80 on ramp! We parked against the burm in order to accommodate as many cars as possible. Your Suburu though, was parked dead square in the middle losing at least 2 spaces. Is that your property too? If so, then I apologize.

Yes Michael, we "parked" for 10 minutes next to your stuck truck, with our motors running hoping to help you. I apologize for being a dick for trying to help you out.

What you aren't getting is the overwhelming number of us here would give up a day in their life to help you out...hang signs, clean up anything, you name it.
Would you volunteer your time on FS project? I doubt it, but I'm the flatlander from Auburn/meadow vista. I volunteered over 100 hours last year in assisting the USFS. How many did you or your guests? Zero is my guess.

I'm willing to volunteer my time to help you despite all this, but I don't feel optimistic. Your attitude ( we are flatlanders and you are from Truckee...cue organ music) is the crotchity old man who gets pissed when a car parks in front of his house in "his" parking place on a public street.

This is not intended for the 95% percent of you on this forum who are understanding and I am willing to work with.

Part of the frustration I am dealing with is the failure of people like atvobsession to acknowledge any problem with what they are doing and the attitude that they have some kind of entitlement not to have anyone question their actions. You acknowledge that you were driving quads up and down a county roadway. Quads are not street legal vehicles and that is not a legal activity. Forget how inconvenient it is to try and plow a road with quads playing in the snowbanks and knocking snow back into the road that I have spent all night trying to get to the side (I have come to live with that).

Also, I do own the road that you were on. You drove right into my property, off the legal easement, right passed a private road sign, and therefore you were trespassing. I guess I am at the point that after people take actions like that, I don't think like I owe them any courtesy and maybe the only way to change behavior is to make the encounter as unpleasant as possible so people will think twice about repeating the action. I don't know what else to do because nothing seems to change the attitude that "who are you to tell me that I can't do anything I feel like on ELR?

You pretend like you are a victim of some "granola" tree hugger and that you are just minding your own business and that this is some kind of land use issue. I will try one more time to make my point. I-80 is also an "easement" road to the forest service lands, but you wouldn't ride your quads down the middle of the freeway, or stop and chat and hang out in the middle of a travel lane. Because you would be most likely arrested.

The reason you were not playing on forest lands was because there was six feet of powder and no one had plowed it ("it was too much for the quads to handle") So instead, you were playing on ELR because I had plowed it with that little white truck. The guys who come in with the proper equipment to access public lands, that are buried in 6 feet of fresh powder, are not my problem. The people who can't get onto public lands because they don't have the proper equipment, so they decide to play where they can drive (again, only because I plowed it) or want to have a party on the road (because it is not as fun to party standing around in 6 feet of powder) as I am working to keep up with the snowfall (2 feet last night alone) are a problem for me and until I can get law enforcement to issue expensive citations, then unfortunately I will need to be the one dealing with the problem.

For 7 years I tried to be polite and kept asking people to not block the road, not park in the turn arounds, not park on my property, not take the shovels and sleds from my front porch. For a couple of months I tried an experiment to be as polite as possible, and I still got this attitude of "how dare you tell me not to do what I want to do" (no matter if I am on your property, or parked illegally, etc). It didn't matter. You are darn right I am crotchity.

This is a question for all parties that have first had knowledge of how clearly the "private road" is marked from ELR entering Mikes property. I am not saying everyone will obey the signs but I sure do when I see them. If I do not see the sign it's not because I do not care...it's because I did not see the sign.

I have been riding motorcycles in the Georgetown area for 30 years and was taught to turn around when I see "private property" signage. I do the same in my Jeep.

FYI The plowed road into my cabins does not follow the public easement, so if you drive on that road in the Winter, you are trespassing on my driveway.
This is why we desperately need to work together to improve signage and augment awareness. I suspect that most of the users are unaware, and that helping them with that will greatly diminish the challenges of maintaining a resort where your are.

Randii

So quick recap for some of us who have not caused any problems: your resort (catered to urban professionals by your own accounts) is about 2 miles past the entrance to Signal Peak and the Fordyce 4x4 trail?

I'm not really sure how you would even deal with any guys running Fordyce simply by your location. According to your map, there is no reason for anyone running the trail to continue on Eagle Lake Rd past Carlyle (the trail). I've run Fordyce only in the summer months, and I did see some vehicles parked on the side of E.L. Rd after it had turned to dirt, and thought how it was a dumb idea. I don't think I could even get my trailer out of there.

Most guys are pretty wise to the meth-heads patrolling Eagle Lakes Road for anything in a tow rig, and $5 at Cisco is pretty cheap insurance to not get yourself robbed. I've found almost all 4x4 guys to be pretty smart about blocking the trailhead, but occasionally you will see some guys not being considerate.


I can understand your zeal as a business owner in the area. The preconceived tension between flannel-wearing OHV enthusiasts and your more gentle, latte-drinking customer-base is what appears to be causing your problems; however, I would suspect most of the road blockages are not from PBBers. Aside from that, people are misunderstanding what you are trying to do out there which is something you may want to look at. Yes some guys are tough-guy a-holes even when asked nicely, but for the most part approaching people in a friendlier manner will yield you better results.

More signs are needed, because prior to this thread, I had no idea Eagle Lakes Road led to anything else. Marking the area as a right of way with signs will likely lessen dealing with blocking the right of way. I don't feel, however; that yelling at guys on the access road helps. My response (prior to knowing about your resort) to someone yelling at me on a road leading to a trailhead would be dismissive although not immediately hostile.

With that said, I wish your business the best of luck in these hard times. Hopefully we can get more signs up and eliminate the prowling meth-heads and annoying snow people.

[QUOTE=Shinneyboo;9441507]This is not intended for the 95% percent of you on this forum who are understanding and I am willing to work with.

I too would be willing to help with a work day this summer if that is needed. This guy has reached out to us on our forum, we need to work with him. He could just as easily join up with a no access group.
We go to the mountains to play and relax, this guy lives and works there. We need to understand the different points of veiw and work with it.


T

improve signage.
Randii

When I first opened I spent $500 on signs and they were torn down in less than a week. Now I buy the cheap "no trespassing" signs which I hate because they are so unfriendly but I can afford to replace them. I have had to put them up high so they don't get ripped down.

He could just as easily join up with a no access group.
T
This is really not an access issue to me. And in the summer, parking on ELR is legal and doesn't bother me as long as the roadway socializing doesn't block access or intimidate my guests. The power of this forum is amazing. Most of the people I have had problems with have actually gone on this forum and I have been able to have dialog (albeit not always in the most constructive way) that tries to get my point across.

Contrary to what some of you may think by reading all this, I do deal with most people with civility and courtesy in spite of all the bad experiences I have had. Where I lose my cool is when I run into the attitude (and I can pick it up before people even talk) of "I am here to have fun and no law, or private property rights, or common courtesy is going to get in my way".

Now, on the road in the Winter I am usually tired and frustrated (all of my equipment is in current need of repair) so I am not always chipper and full of smiles, but I don't become rude until I have informed someone of their (usually illegal) behavior and they give me with that quiet :flipoff2: look and basically convey the message that they plan to take their own sweet time.

I am tired of having to explain, especially on my own property, why I don't want people sledding on my hills, or parked in my turnarounds. I have had exactly one person in 10 years who said "You know, I saw the no parking, no trespassing sign, but I didn't think anyone cared. I am sorry, we will pack up our stuff and find somewhere else to play". One lady pointed to a 10 foot snow bank and the tree with the sign and said "I though that meant no parking up there" as if she was driving Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and could fly. I usually have to explain who I am and justify why I have a right to be even talking to them, and sometimes I have to prove to their satisfaction why they are not on public land and have been even asked to show them my deed.

And because, even though the county makes three times as much off my business every year than I do, I do not get adequate law enforcement therefore if I want to make sure that my road is not blocked every weekend I am have no choice but to try and get people to follow county laws on ELR. Believe me, I wish I could just go about my business and rely on the county to slap $200 citations on everyone blocking the road and never have to confront anyone, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I hope if I can get the support of the reasonable people on this forum we can understand each other's issues and go about our lives with congeniality.

I'm not really sure how you would even deal with any guys running Fordyce simply by your location. According to your map, there is no reason for anyone running the trail to continue on Eagle Lake Rd past Carlyle (the trail) ...

. . . The preconceived tension between flannel-wearing OHV enthusiasts and your more gentle, latte-drinking customer-base is what appears to be causing your problems; however, I would suspect most of the road blockages are not from PBBers.
One huge issue for me would be to get your support in closing the access thru my property because it is not needed to access the Fordyce or Pierce Creek areas, but that may be too much to ask for. But supporting the current FS plan to close the loop in the Winter would be greatly appreciated. In the Summer the club jeepers traveling thru are really not the problem, it is the Nissan Sentra campers who can't get passed my property, and can't get down the Indian Springs trail head, who I think do most of the vandalism and trashing of my place.

My customers really have few complaints about the 4x4 community (except the illegal gunfire along the river in the Summer scares them, and me sometimes). I am the one who is having a problem (mostly in the Winter) with the blockage of ELR. In fact a lot of them would love to be able to go on jeep tours along the Fordyce and perhaps that could be a way for your club to fund raise for a full season safe and secure staging area?

When I first opened I spent $500 on signs and they were torn down in less than a week. Now I buy the cheap "no trespassing" signs which I hate because they are so unfriendly but I can afford to replace them. I have had to put them up high so they don't get ripped down.
Mike, I offered above to help with this...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=9352355&postcount=76
I'm even willing to absorb the printing cost.

Signs and gates take a while to gain acceptance -- it stinks, but when you put in a new one, you can pretty much plan to have to keep an eye out and reinstall when they get removed. Sooner or later, they will 'take' and become accepted... in the meantime it is just a maintenance itch that will occasionally need scratched until the majority of users/vandals figure out that the signs are here to stay.

Let's work together,

Randii

Let's work together . .
How about we plan a BBQ one Sat, or Sun in the late Spring/early Summer at the Boo and we can sit down, relax, have some steaks and beers, and come up with a proactive plan?

... supporting the current FS plan to close the loop in the Winter would be greatly appreciated. In the Summer the club jeepers traveling thru are really not the problem, it is the Nissan Sentra campers who can't get passed my property, and can't get down the Indian Springs trail head, who I think do most of the vandalism and trashing of my place.
I can't support closing the road to OHV access, especially with the Pierce area nearby, which was purchased by OHMVR dollars and transitioned into USFS management with the clear requirement that it be managed for OHV access. Frankly, the Forest Services Draft EIS doc is a violation of the intent of the original acquisition.

I'm open to brainstorming how we can manage a public road for differential access (allowing OHVs but discouraging street vehicles and sledders), but when you maintain the public stretch of road to allow access to street vehicles to your private property, I'm just not sure how to make this road less of an attractive nuisance. IMHO, this comes back to education/signs and enforcement.

BTW, let us know how we can help (wo needs influenced?) to get more regular enforcment and patrolling. This seems like a clear win-win, since you need better patrols for road control and OHV needs better patrols to help manage the break-in/vandalism problems.

Randii

How about we plan a BBQ one Sat, or Sun in the late Spring/early Summer at the Boo and we can sit down, relax, have some steaks and beers, and come up with a proactive plan?
This sounds GREAT. Face-to-face communications often do better than internet transactions, and it is tough to argue when you're sharing a meal!

My schedule is pretty open...

Randii

Pierce Creek OHV shows a loop, I was under the impression this was a FS Rd., not a private one. If it is Private, then we should only use it with permission, but I think this may be where the confusion lies in respects to your sled hill.

That map shows my entire 1/4 section parcel.

However, the Federal Government paid $250 for the perpetual right to a public easement through my property


So is this the road you are referring to in regards to the sled hill?

I believe the black and green Rd.'s going through your property are public easements?

The black is the easement and the green is the road I built, with collaboration with the Forest Service, out of an old skid road to bypass my lower section of the property and stop non 4x4s from accessing the river because the FS is attempting to limit access to OHV vehicles, since the other three quarter sections of section 14 were bought with green sticker funds.

So do we tell people not to use the Green Rd.?

All of the proposed OHV Road Use options the USFS is considering, recommend closing the green (unofficial easement) and black (recorded easement) to Winter use, so yes in the Winter I would prefer you didn't use the road so that I can use my road for Snowshoeing, XC Skiing and Sledding.

In the Summer, but I am thinking you guys are not the ones I am having problems with. I don't have any problem with quiet, minimal dust, reasonable speed, sticking to the trail and not driving up areas I am trying to revegetate, no parking, no camping, no fire building, travel through my property. It is your legal right. Just remember it is my home and I ask you to be so kind as to show some respect and maybe go the extra mile to communicate support for me to the Yahoos.


Ok, with that in mind, the DEIS and potential closure of the area, I should tell you that we did write in during the comment period to ask that the area stay open (oops), because we do use it in the winter for snow wheeling.

We were unaware that you had made it into a private sno-park for your guests.

Apparently, because it is on the FS map as a legal OHV recreation area and legal FS trail... we assumed it was open.

It is still legally open and you don't need to honor my wishes, however I do need to use the section near the green gate as a snow storage spot (it is very easy to push large amounts of snow straight down the road).


Honoring your wishes is one thing, which we certainly can do....but I was just trying to point out why there was confusion on the part of us who do read maps so we that we can legally recreate responsibly. This could be why people are using it against your wishes.



It is private property which the FS has a legal easement thru, which I suspect makes it an official, open FS trail (I am not as up on actual designation differences as you appear to be). No one sticking to the easement is trespassing by using it now. I have no recourse at this time to stop anyone from accessing my property at any time of year.


Cliff notes:

The black road and the green road going through the white square are legal access road beyond the Fordyce Trail entrance.

They were paid for by Federal dollars which all green and red sticker vehicles paid for via the Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Division. (OHMVR).

Anything we do (cooperatively) to give Mike exclusive access to either the green or black road, respectively gives back work for access that has already been done.

The Green Rd is an official FS Trail, the Black Rd is and official FS Road.

I would personally like to see these roads remain open for all seasons.

I am also thinking that what would be reasonable is if via a cooperative agreement, we voluntarily allow him to use one of those roads (of his choosing of course) during the winter for his customers. And assist in education and enforcement. (Much like we do now with the Loon Lake access to the Rubicon in the winter for Monte and his crew)

It appears as thought there are a few people here who know nothing of Pierce OHV and its access points. But be assured that many people use it, and I hope will continue to use it responsibly.

This is a legal and open OHV area that was paid for with OHMVR dollars. YOUR dollars. If we are going to volunteer giving up access to it, then perhaps we should consider getting something in return.

I'm not really sure how you would even deal with any guys running Fordyce simply by your location. According to your map, there is no reason for anyone running the trail to continue on Eagle Lake Rd past Carlyle (the trail)..



It has been covered previously in this thread, but there is an OHV camping area and access point to an official OHV trail head past this guys property. (this guy bought property that would have land locked the OHV trail system)The state owns a legal easement of property (the road) that goes through this guys property to get to said OHV site. Everyone has the right to drive down ELR through his property to the OHV camp sites and access the trail. He gets mad when they stray from the actual road or stop on the road. I will leave it at that for now but I do have a definite opinion as to how this guy is handling this situation. :shaking:

Cliff notes:

snip

I would personally like to see these roads remain open for all seasons.

snip

If we are going to volunteer giving up access to it, then perhaps we should consider getting something in return.

NEVER give up anything. Consider any agreement a trial to closure. :mad3:

So am I correct in that the pink square is skinnyboo property and the black road in the pink square is the FS/OHV easement?

Sorry I have not responded for a bit but I have some other stuff going on that requires my attention.

After trying to catch up a bit it seems we will have to eventually just figure out what is legal and what isn't and then come to some sort of agreement. We also will have to come to an agreement on aspects of this situstion that we can work together on.

I know I have not contributed much to the conversation except to state the obvious but at least all of us are still talking and that's a good thing.

So am I correct in that the pink square is skinnyboo property and the black road in the pink square is the FS/OHV easement?

Both the Black and Green Rds.

The Black is a FS Rd. the Green a FS Trail.

And yes the pink square is Mike's Property.

Thanks Jacqueline for the recap.....

So basically....He's mad because we were on his road, waiting to see if he needed assistance, yet we had the ABSOLUTE legal right to drive on the road.

Thanks Jacqueline for the recap.....

So basically....He's mad because we were on his road, waiting to see if he needed assistance, yet we had the ABSOLUTE legal right to drive on the road.


Not that I have the power, but quit being a prick before you find yourself removed from this section forever.:mad3: You've already been reported.

It's the lack of respect, and the bad attitudes like yours that give the PBB and 4x4 enthusiasts a bad name.

99% of the people here are supporting most of this guys wishes, and you continue to open your mouth and make things worse.

Mike from Shinneyboo came on strong so I do not think it is out of line to have Ken, atvobsession, state his first hand experience. Ken is not threatening or out of line. (the pic may have been a little much)

I can't seem to read those maps. How about some pics of the offending area?

Not that I have the power, but quit being a prick before you find yourself removed from this section forever.:mad3: You've already been reported.

It's the lack of respect, and the bad attitudes like yours that give the PBB and 4x4 enthusiasts a bad name.

99% of the people here are supporting most of this guys wishes, and you continue to open your mouth and make things worse.


Perhaps you should shut your f***ing trap unless you know what the f*** you're talking about. You were not there nor did you experience the attitude. I'll say it AGAIN (for those of you that can't read) - "you're working on your rig, I pull up in my truck and tell you that EPA regs state you must have some type of approved collection device if you're going to be working on your vehicle in your driveway. Then I drive off. What would you think? Yeah, that's what I thought. Exactly how you came off to us."

We had every right to be on the road, it's a FS road. He was bent because he has to deal with dumbarses all the time (how were we to know this?). He had a chip on his shoulder already. We were not rude nor did we intentionally impede his progress. He plows that road at ~40 MPH which IMHO is way too fast, but I'm not going to get into a pissin contest about that. His concern was he was going to come around a blind corner and hit us. OK, thank you for your concern, but how is coming around a blind corner plowing the road at 40 MPH and encountering any vehicle any different? If he is that concerned about hitting people, he should be concerned about cars, trucks, SUVs, tractors or ANY other vehicle coming down the road. If it is genuine concern, how about slowing down????????

I will also add, now that we know the situation (he only identified himself as "the guy 'responsible' for plowing the road and his property was at the end of the road"), and his trouble he has with many other asshats , we have offered our help. EXACTLY the same thing we did that day, offered our help to extract his truck. And just like that day, we have been met with "I don't want your help, I want the road closed to traffic to the OHV area".

I would also suggest to you that you watch what you say here and who you call out as being part of the problem. Unless you have personal knowledge of someone that posts here and have witnessed them being 'part of the problem' then STFU. I'd be willing to bet that Ken has put more time in over ONE summer towards keeping the trails open and doing things like Trail Patrol than you have since you've been in the hobby.

For further clarification, this is where we were when we encountered Mike's stuck plow truck. NOT on his property.

In case you guys haven't realized from his posts, he really has no desire to "make peace with us" his desire is pretty much spelled out - he wants to close access to the OHV area through his property. If you don't see that, then maybe you should go back and read thru all the posts again.

I think everyone needs to step back & take a breath.

Whether it's from the keyboard, ATV/snowmobile handlebars, or steering wheel of your tow rig/trail rig/snowplow/backhoe.

People are ignoring signs possibly breaking laws, & being idiots so folks are getting upset.
While others are doing nothing wrong, minding their own business, enjoying life & getting hit with major attitude & veiled threats.

I think we all want the same thing here.......
Respect of personal property, access to designated outdoor activities, and the freedom to enjoy ourselves & be prosperous.

This forum is helping us to resolve some conflicts & find a solution.
Sure there will be some frustration & disagreements. But the important thing is that we all come to some type agreement/compromise so that everyone wins out.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is the age old saying...
"You get more Bees with Honey, rather than Vinegar".

I think everyone needs to step back & take a breath.

Whether it's from the keyboard, ATV/snowmobile handlebars, or steering wheel of your tow rig/trail rig/snowplow/backhoe.

People are ignoring signs possibly breaking laws, & being idiots so folks are getting upset.
While others are doing nothing wrong, minding their own business, enjoying life & getting hit with major attitude & veiled threats.

I think we all want the same thing here.......
Respect of personal property, access to designated outdoor activities, and the freedom to enjoy ourselves & be prosperous.

This forum is helping us to resolve some conflicts & find a solution.
Sure there will be some frustration & disagreements. But the important thing is that we all come to some type agreement/compromise so that everyone wins out.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is the age old saying...
"You get more Bees with Honey, rather than Vinegar".


I fully agree with you Mike, especially regarding the last statement. That's perfectly fitting for this situation.

Had Mike not come off so strong right out of the gate, we wouldn't have chips on our shoulders either. And then to be attacked by "one of our own" in defense of someone that does not come across as being OHV friendly really just infuriated me.

I understand Mike's predicament, however, he knew when he bought that property that this easement existed. He knew there was an OHV area bordering his property and he should have known what that meant traffic wise.

He even admits in his last post, it's the "Nissan Sentra campers" that are the problem, and yet he comes here to try to resolve the issue. Why isn't he on nissansentracampers.com????

I will say it one last time, we are willing to help, however we are not going to do it at the expense of losing even more access to our ever diminishing trail system. Randii has offered his assistance in the way of signage, this thread is doing wonders for educating those of us that did not know the particulars of the roads and trail easements and I know we ALL respect private property rights.

As in all aspects of life, don't be so quick to judge. Everyone is guilty here, Mike, us and this Slapahoe guy.

For further clarification, this is where we were when we encountered Mike's stuck plow truck. NOT on his property.

In case you guys haven't realized from his posts, he really has no desire to "make peace with us" his desire is pretty much spelled out - he wants to close access to the OHV area through his property. If you don't see that, then maybe you should go back and read thru all the posts again.
I guess that might be my only course of action, because you are stuck on the public access issue and you refuse to acknowledge that your activity (riding quads on the road) is not legal. So, I guess I will need to pursue my course of action and you pursue yours.

Ironically the courtesy I provided by plowing the trail head ending up blocking access to the Fordyce Trail with sledders this weekend. There were 8 cars parked right on the road, so I guess that gets people off ELR and you folks can deal with the sledders blocking your road, except, because they will be off ELR, their actions will be full legal.

he knew when he bought that property that this easement existed. He knew there was an OHV area bordering his property and he should have known what that meant traffic wise.

How could I ever have guessed when I bought this property that the general public would feel that they had a right to do anything they wanted on my property and could illegally block ELR when ever they felt like it, and if I had a problem with that then they could physically threaten me (because I am the only one in this situation who has actually been threatened -- I simply stated my intention to defend myself the next time someone felt like "dropping me".)? My belligerence is a conditioned response to 10 years of increasingly hostile behavior and a disregard for the law and my property rights.

I hope that I can meet with the reasonable members of your community and find a solution that has some effect on the unreasonable members of your community.

Perhaps you should shut your f***ing trap unless you know what the f*** you're talking about.
It is funny, this was the attitude you conveyed when you offered "to help". Is it any wonder that I was not interested in your "charity"? The Bees and Honey analogy is a two way street.

Mike from Shinneyboo came on strong so I do not think it is out of line to have Ken, atvobsession, state his first hand experience. Ken is not threatening or out of line. (the pic may have been a little much)I don't mind Ken and the anonymous atvobsession stating that they thought I was a jerk because I refused their help (do I have to accept help from people I don't like?). I found their offer of help aggressive and decidedly unfriendly, coming as it did immediately after they quadded onto my property, deviating from the easement road, past private road, no trespassing signs and after they displayed an extremely unfriendly reaction to my request that they not quad on my property, and that quadding on ELR was not a legal activity.

Both the Black and Green Rds.

The Black is a FS Rd. the Green a FS Trail.

And yes the pink square is Mike's Property.The FS has no legal right to the green trail. That was provided by me to help their desire to preserve the river for OHV vehicles (with the addition of strategic boulders and keep regular street vehicle out of the river camping areas. Also, the desire was to limit the "party scene" that was developing on the river to the point that families felt unsafe (does anyone remember "Chicken on the River" raves).

NEVER give up anything. Consider any agreement a trial to closure. :mad3:I am currently not pursuing any closure action, I simply want to be left in peace from the like of some who are on this forum. I prefer not to use a hammer if a screwdriver will work.

Thanks Jacqueline for the recap.....

So basically....He's mad because we were on his road, waiting to see if he needed assistance, yet we had the ABSOLUTE legal right to drive on the road.You do not have the legal right to park, stage, quad, or otherwise do anything on ELR but drive down it to my property or the trailhead and turn around and drive back to I-80 in a street legal vehicle. The plowed road deviates from the easement and unless you can drive over a 10 ft snow bank you do not have the legal right to be on my property in the Winter.

The first 5 years I owned the property there was not a single track on it in the Winter until late Spring (I think there was one time, a group of crawlers with the huge tires made it down Carlyle Rd and back up thru my property, and I was quite impressed by that).

So lets be clear, this is not a case of existing use that was happening that I wasn't aware of when I bought the property, that I am now trying to shut down after the fact (the better analogy is the people who buy acreage surrounded by beautiful vineyards and then complain about tractor dust). The only reason most people are trying to get on my property now is because of the plowed road, so most of the Winter problem is because I am there and plowing the road and before I bought the property rarely would anyone ever be on it from December to April.

PS, I just got a great call of support from someone I met on the trail several years ago. Thanks again to the guys that are trying to be constructive, it is going a long way towards bringing down my blood pressure.

It has been covered previously in this thread, but there is an OHV camping area and access point to an official OHV trail head past this guys property. (this guy bought property that would have land locked the OHV trail system)The state owns a legal easement of property (the road) that goes through this guys property to get to said OHV site. Everyone has the right to drive down ELR through his property to the OHV camp sites and access the trail. He gets mad when they stray from the actual road or stop on the road. I will leave it at that for now but I do have a definite opinion as to how this guy is handling this situation. :shaking:With all due respect, you are incorrect. There is no OHV or FS land that is land locked by my property. All of it is accessible from the Indian Springs Trailhead and the Carlyle Rd. The only reason most people use the easement thru my property is because I maintain my road better than the FS maintains the Grouse Ridge Rd cutoff to the Yuba River camping area.

Cliff notes:

The black road and the green road going through the white square are legal access road beyond the Fordyce Trail entrance.

They were paid for by Federal dollars which all green and red sticker vehicles paid for via the Off Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Division. (OHMVR).

Anything we do (cooperatively) to give Mike exclusive access to either the green or black road, respectively gives back work for access that has already been done.

The Green Rd is an official FS Trail, the Black Rd is and official FS Road.

I would personally like to see these roads remain open for all seasons.

I am also thinking that what would be reasonable is if via a cooperative agreement, we voluntarily allow him to use one of those roads (of his choosing of course) during the winter for his customers. And assist in education and enforcement. (Much like we do now with the Loon Lake access to the Rubicon in the winter for Monte and his crew)

It appears as thought there are a few people here who know nothing of Pierce OHV and its access points. But be assured that many people use it, and I hope will continue to use it responsibly.

This is a legal and open OHV area that was paid for with OHMVR dollars. YOUR dollars. If we are going to volunteer giving up access to it, then perhaps we should consider getting something in return.Your tax dollars (all 250 of them) bought the black road. The green trail is not a legal easement on my property. I have allowed you to use it (free of charge) and it is my legal right to restrict access to it at any time. If I did that, then the FS would require that I let you down the old black road, which would in turn let anyone get to the river and the FS felt that that would not preserve the "pure" OHV experience that they were trying to provide for you folks.

So, I appreciate your offer to "give back" to me one of my roads, but there is only one legal easement (the black road) to which you have any access rights.

This sounds GREAT. Face-to-face communications often do better than internet transactions, and it is tough to argue when you're sharing a meal!

My schedule is pretty open...

RandiiMidweek is better for me, but I assume that most of work Mon-Fri. How about a Saturday in the middle of May?

BTW, let us know how we can help (wo needs influenced?) to get more regular enforcment and patrolling. This seems like a clear win-win, since you need better patrols for road control and OHV needs better patrols to help manage the break-in/vandalism problems.
RandiiNevada County Sheriff and CHP need to log calls to show a problem to in turn provide funding for staffing. Placer is considering eliminating the resident deputy because of the low call volume (.6 calls per week on Donner Summit). So call every time there is a crime or violation of the law.

The FS has no legal right to the green trail. That was provided by me to help their desire to preserve the river for OHV vehicles (with the addition of strategic boulders and keep regular street vehicle out of the river camping areas. Also, the desire was to limit the "party scene" that was developing on the river to the point that families felt unsafe (does anyone remember "Chicken on the River" raves).


Per your earlier post, it was an "unofficial easement", and the FS helped you build it.

But beyond that, because it is green on all of the DEIS Alternative Maps, means only one thing....they think it's theirs, and an Official FS trail.

So you may have to take that up with them directly.

For now it shows as a legal trail. So until that changes, it is what it is.

I don't mind Ken and the anonymous atvobsession stating that they thought I was a jerk because I refused their help (do I have to accept help from people I don't like?). I found their offer of help aggressive and decidedly unfriendly, coming as it did immediately after they quadded onto my property, deviating from the easement road, past private road, no trespassing signs and after they displayed an extremely unfriendly reaction to my request that they not quad on my property, and that quadding on ELR was not a legal activity.


I'm hardly anonymous. I'm Ken Hower..I live off Dry Creek in Auburn....I run the Rubicon Trail Patrol. The overwhelming majority know who I am and what I do. I volunteer literally HUNDREDS of hours of my time....without any compensation assisting the USFS and the trail system. If you'd like my phone number...it's all yours. I so definitely have nothing to hide.

This my last on this.....We drove up to you, not knowing who or what you were....and asked nicely....the first words out of your mouth, were condescending and vile. You make it sound like we were yelling at you. Why on earth, would 3 people trying to locate the owner of stuck truck, be pissed at you?? That just doesn't make any sense what so ever. And when you asked we not park on ELR (we didn't anyway), we agreed and said Ok. (because we had no reason to park on ELR).

And you are dead wrong. We never made it to your SHINEYBOO Structure. We stopped and waiting at your truck...and then drove toward your property to see if we could find the truck owner. Yeah...kindness to someone in a messed up situation....we drove over there to see if we could find the truck owner. After we talked to you....we turned around. End of story.

I admittedly, have a very low knowledge of the specific roads there, coming from that direction. I've only come out of Pierce OHV from the other direction twice in the last 5 years. This is where signs directing people to the Pierce OHV from that direction would be VERY HELPFUL. We've already agreed that we'd all be more than willing to help you with signage.

I will concur with Kendo....You drive WAY too fast on that road for the conditions. Your worries are not OHV users....How many close calls have you had with regular people in their SUV's driving down the road to "check it out"? Quite a few I bet. While we chatted at I80...we saw 2 cars go down that road....and then come back about 5 minutes later. And that was over 15 minutes.....I imagine that happens MANY times per day.

When this issue finally finds it way to the courts (it sounds like it might), the term "unofficial easement" may be properly defined by a judge as a "prescriptive easement." Henceforth, the property owner may possess no legal remedies with respect to that issue.

Alternatively, a judge may reasonably conclude that a trespass has occured when a snow berm has been knowingly and intentionally created that may cause a legal easement to become unpassable, or merely as simple as unreasonably difficult. That edge should be taper gently in the future to avoid a legal action resulting from the appearance of an intentional act. Legal fees and damages could be very costly as a result of intentional acts, especially when those acts target not only an individual, but an entire user community as characterized herein.

The solution for this entire problem appears simple. If the property owner witnesses an illegal act, he should avoid potentially dangerous confrontations. He should take down a license plate number, and file a criminal complaint. If the act causes the property owner to be damaged, the license plate number will serve to locate the defendant and make them available to the civil court's jurisdiction. Face to face resolutions don't fly in the forest, let alone the middle of downtown Sacramento.

Succinctly, the property owner's negotiating tactics deserve no attention whatsoever, until such time that a reasonable tone can be attributed to his content. He is not on firm legal footing, and should consult a competent attorney. It is obvious that he hasn't got the attention from the law enforcement community that he believe he deserves, if he had, he wouldn't be here, and he wouldn't be infering the use of western style justice in any form, regardless of his current and past frustrations. All PBB should offer him is to get the word out that he is an irritated and concerned property owner, some may conclude creatingly dangerous.

Finally - it would be a good thing if everybody just plays nice (and legal).

Per your earlier post, it was an "unofficial easement", and the FS helped you build it.

But beyond that, because it is green on all of the DEIS Alternative Maps, means only one thing....they think it's theirs, and an Official FS trail.

So you may have to take that up with them directly.

For now it shows as a legal trail. So until that changes, it is what it is.The FS did not help me build it. I built it myself. Are you suggesting I need to close it down to protect my legal rights. I really don't like where you guys are taking this posting.

When this issue finally finds it way to the courts (it sounds like it might), the term "unofficial easement" may be properly defined by a judge as a "prescriptive easement." Henceforth, the property owner may possess no legal remedies with respect to that issue.

Alternatively, a judge may reasonably conclude that a trespass has occured when a snow berm has been knowingly and intentionally created that may cause a legal easement to become unpassable, or merely as simple as unreasonably difficult. That edge should be taper gently in the future to avoid a legal action resulting from the appearance of an intentional act. Legal fees and damages could be very costly as a result of intentional acts, especially when those acts target not only an individual, but an entire user community as characterized herein.

The solution for this entire problem appears simple. If the property owner witnesses an illegal act, he should avoid potentially dangerous confrontations. He should take down a license plate number, and file a criminal complaint. If the act causes the property owner to be damaged, the license plate number will serve to locate the defendant and make them available to the civil court's jurisdiction. Face to face resolutions don't fly in the forest, let alone the middle of downtown Sacramento.

Succinctly, the property owner's negotiating tactics deserve no attention whatsoever, until such time that a reasonable tone can be attributed to his content. He is not on firm legal footing, and should consult a competent attorney. It is obvious that he hasn't got the attention from the law enforcement community that he believe he deserves, if he had, he wouldn't be here, and he wouldn't be infering the use of western style justice in any form, regardless of his current and past frustrations. All PBB should offer him is to get the word out that he is an irritated and concerned property owner, some may conclude creatingly dangerous.

Finally - it would be a good thing if everybody just plays nice (and legal).Bye, guys.

I guess this is a case for the lawyers. I better protect my interests vigorously from those members of your community who are willing to use my acts of consideration and attempting to work constructively with the FS to take even more away from me and harass me further.

FYI, the 8 foot snowbank fell naturally and is not a berm, and the repeated violations of county ordinances, and the documentation on this site of the willful disregard for those ordinances will serve me well.

The speed limit on ELR is 35 miles an hour and I rarely do more than 20.

Perhaps you should shut your f***ing trap unless you know what the f*** you're talking about. You were not there nor did you experience the attitude. I'll say it AGAIN (for those of you that can't read) - "you're working on your rig, I pull up in my truck and tell you that EPA regs state you must have some type of approved collection device if you're going to be working on your vehicle in your driveway. Then I drive off. What would you think? Yeah, that's what I thought. Exactly how you came off to us."

We had every right to be on the road, it's a FS road. He was bent because he has to deal with dumbarses all the time (how were we to know this?). He had a chip on his shoulder already. We were not rude nor did we intentionally impede his progress. He plows that road at ~40 MPH which IMHO is way too fast, but I'm not going to get into a pissin contest about that. His concern was he was going to come around a blind corner and hit us. OK, thank you for your concern, but how is coming around a blind corner plowing the road at 40 MPH and encountering any vehicle any different? If he is that concerned about hitting people, he should be concerned about cars, trucks, SUVs, tractors or ANY other vehicle coming down the road. If it is genuine concern, how about slowing down????????

I will also add, now that we know the situation (he only identified himself as "the guy 'responsible' for plowing the road and his property was at the end of the road"), and his trouble he has with many other asshats , we have offered our help. EXACTLY the same thing we did that day, offered our help to extract his truck. And just like that day, we have been met with "I don't want your help, I want the road closed to traffic to the OHV area".

I would also suggest to you that you watch what you say here and who you call out as being part of the problem. Unless you have personal knowledge of someone that posts here and have witnessed them being 'part of the problem' then STFU. I'd be willing to bet that Ken has put more time in over ONE summer towards keeping the trails open and doing things like Trail Patrol than you have since you've been in the hobby.

Know what I'm talking about?

Perhaps I am not up-to-date on land use, road easements, etc.; but I find it pretty simple to understand that if you do not back off on this "who's out of line, who's not", this guy just might plow right up to his property, and leave it up to the county workers to plow the rest of the road.

This isn't a dick measuring contest, it's about making sure the one guy who is willing to plow that road up there is happier with us as a whole. You seem WAY to dense to figure that out.

Looking at the last post of Shineyboo, I hope all of you prefer summer trips, cause it seems he's gonna make things more difficult to wheel in the winter.

When I make a trip up there, and have to take the longer way around to get to Fordyce, I'll remember your name.

Midweek is better for me, but I assume that most of work Mon-Fri. How about a Saturday in the middle of May?
Let's make it happen. Getting together face-to-face almost always helps with these issues. I have respect and appreciation for you bringing this issue here, and respect for most of the folks who posted here in response -- those from both sides of the issue.

Between now and then, we can all escalate calls to the Nevada County Sheriff and California Highway Patrol as necessary for parking problems, illegal road usage, and vehicle break-ins. If we all work together to turn in the crack-heads and nissan-sentra-campers, we might still get along, us OHV-ers and the property owner.

Randii

When I make a trip up there, and have to take the longer way around to get to Fordyce

What do you mean by this?

The black is the easement and the green is the road I built, with collaboration with the Forest Service, out of an old skid road to bypass my lower section of the property and stop non 4x4s from accessing the river because the FS is attempting to limit access to OHV vehicles, since the other three quarter sections of section 14 were bought with green sticker funds.


All I am trying to point out here, is that they think it is theirs.

Whatever the level of collaboration you had with the Forest Service, they think it belongs to them. And therefore it belongs to the public. Legally and on a Federal Level. Like I said earlier, they make mistakes all the time, but until that is changed you will have a hard time getting anyone to enforce it.

Slapahoe:

The winter use issue may go the way of the Eldorado National Forest....so all of this may be a moot point.

It will have nothing to do with Mike's input. But more of Region 5's input.

If he plowed to where the county road ended, we would still be able to access Pierce OHV legally through his property.

Whether or not he plows so that he can have access to his property has absolutely nothing to do with OHV access.

Nothing.

he's gonna make things more difficult to wheel in the winter.

You need to get more up to speed on land use. Did you make any comments toward the latest Tahoe and El Dorado DEIS?? Did you read it? Yes or No.

I read it....and made over 100 comments between the two forests and you'll know a lot more of my involvement with El Dorado....VERY SHORTLY.



When I make a trip up there, and have to take the longer way around to get to Fordyce, I'll remember your name.

Do you even know where we are talking about?? We're talking ABOUT the long way into Fordyce. Not the way you're used to going.

I'm going to try (based on time, not ability) to do the Pierce OHV trail and get some good pictures, GPS points and match it all up to the maps so everyone can get a good idea where everything is.

Perhaps I am not up-to-date on land use, road easements, etc.; but I find it pretty simple to understand that if you do not back off on this "who's out of line, who's not", this guy just might plow right up to his property, and leave it up to the county workers to plow the rest of the road.

This isn't a dick measuring contest, it's about making sure the one guy who is willing to plow that road up there is happier with us as a whole. You seem WAY to dense to figure that out.

I couldn't agree more. I think the tone of a couple of the land use guru's could have been a little less emotional. The "honey vs. vinegar" analogy seems to have been left out in the last few pages of rhetoric on the part of two of them.

[QUOTE=Bebe;9466047 therefore it belongs to the public. [/QUOTE]Wow.

One road is not enough for you, you want to take another 5 acres of my land. Is there anything else you want? I have a nice flat screen TV, maybe you want to take one of my cabins for your personal use? Maybe my wife looks nice to you.

Once you (one of what I thought were the reasonable ones) talked about trying to take my land, all dialog ended.

I will be informing the FS tomorrow morning that since we never got around to redirecting the easement, I need to protect my property rights and am no longer allowing access to that road effective immediately (everyone can get to the river now:)). I will also forward to them the threats I have documented on this forum and the fact that my attorney will be serving notice to them that if they do not act to protect me from further threats of violence from users of public lands that I will be holding the FS legally culpable for any ill effects.

I will also begin action to get the Nevada County Prosecutor to pursue trespassing cases against anyone who deviates from the easement, and that will include the plowed road on my property and especially anyone driving into the cabin area. I raise rabbits for food, and thanks to the Patriot Act, and the Animal rights activists, the law has changed where you don't need to be asked to leave anymore to be committing trespass - something about protecting the nations food supply against terrorist attack. My property meets all legal trespassing signage requirements and the offer to drop by and say hi is hereby rescinded. Anyone with ideas of doing snow removal to clear the easement better park up at Cisco and hike in, and berms are just a part of life in the mountains.

CHP has assured me that free and clear side roadways on the I-80 corridor is their "number one issue" because it is a hot issue with local politicians and as soon as they are satisfied that proper signage in place they are going to start citing heavily.

Now I know why private land owners take such an aggressive stance about shutting down access, because you guys are militant land socialists who don't seem to respect anyone else's rights in pursuit of your agenda (rock zombies excluded).

Don't' be surprised when I am not all smiles when I run into y'all. Peace.

The FS did not help me build it. I built it myself. Are you suggesting I need to close it down to protect my legal rights. I really don't like where you guys are taking this posting.

I'm sorry, I read this post again, and I still don't see how it could mean "I" am trying to take your land.

I'm simply stating what the problem is here. IT'S THE FOREST SERVICE who has designated it a legal trail.

Not me.

Wow, apparently there's a lot more going on with Mr. Shinneyboo than this particular issue. Basically you're just pissed off at the world and we're in your path.

Go ahead and print every single letter of every word I posted here, because there was not ONE threat to you. Nor did we threaten you in any way that fateful day of our first meeting. Judging from your hostility though, I know I for one will be very concerned if I see your white truck blasting down ELR again.

Case in point:

I raise rabbits for food, and thanks to the Patriot Act, and the Animal rights activists, the law has changed where you don't need to be asked to leave anymore to be committing trespass - something about protecting the nations food supply against terrorist attack.

Pretty sure any legal expert or average Joe would read this as a DIRECT threat to anyone driving down the FS road thru your property to access the OHV area.

I'm done with this issue. I was there, I saw firsthand the attitude of Mr. Shinneyboo and the rest of you did not. You are only reading what he is posting in an internet forum and you're thinking he's being reasonable. Was his last post reasonable?? We're all getting wound up over being able to drive down a FS road to access an OHV area. Something that is 100% within the letter of the law. I for one cannot believe that the anger towards us is still so fresh with this guy for something that happened 2 months ago. That's a long time to carry a torch for an incident that lasted maybe a total of 30 minutes between meetings at your truck and where we were parked (pull out area just off 80 right next to YOUR car).

My only advice to you Mike, is to call the CHP and/or sheriff every time you see something illegal going on down "your road" and let them handle it. The only thing you're getting yourself by policing the area in your white truck is attitude and dismissal.

Have a nice day.

therefore it belongs to the public. Legally and on a Federal Level.I know the conversations I have had with the FS, but your analysis of what you "the public" owns is what disturbs me. And the fact that your posting seems to support the posting by cjcraig7 of taking me to court to establish a prescriptive easement sent chills down my spine.
"When this issue finally finds it way to the courts (it sounds like it might), the term "unofficial easement" may be properly defined by a judge as a "prescriptive easement." Henceforth, the property owner may possess no legal remedies with respect to that issue."
He is right, in order protect myself from seizing additional land thru the use of prescriptive easement laws I need to shut down travel, otherwise I might lose additional rights to my land. By allowing a use, I lose the right to stop it over time.

I know the conversations I have had with the FS, but your analysis of what you "the public" owns is what disturbs me. And the fact that your posting seems to support the posting by cjcraig7 of taking me to court to establish a prescriptive easement sent chills down my spine.
"When this issue finally finds it way to the courts (it sounds like it might), the term "unofficial easement" may be properly defined by a judge as a "prescriptive easement." Henceforth, the property owner may possess no legal remedies with respect to that issue."
He is right, in order protect myself from seizing additional land thru the use of prescriptive easement laws I need to shut down travel, otherwise I might lose additional rights to my land. By allowing a use, I lose the right to stop it over time.

My comment is being taken out of context. I'm saying the Forest Service thinks it is their road, and again I should say, you need to take that up with them.

I am reasonable, which is why I'm trying to help you source the point of your frustration, and direct you in a way that it can be solved legally. Through the FS. I don't even get where you are going with courts and lawyers, and don't even see why that would be necessary.

Your only battle, will be with the feds, not us. We are just trying to say your beef should be with them, not us. You can't get angry with people for doing what is legal.

PS, I am female, not male. :)

Wow, apparently there's a lot more going on with Mr. Shinneyboo than this particular issue. Basically you're just pissed off at the world and we're in your path...

I raise rabbits for food, and thanks to the Patriot Act, and the Animal rights activists, the law has changed where you don't need to be asked to leave anymore to be committing trespass - something about protecting the nations food supply against terrorist attack.

Pretty sure any legal expert or average Joe would read this as a DIRECT threat to anyone driving down the FS road thru your property to access the OHV area.
I am not pissed at the world, I am pissed at you and people like you specifically. You displayed this "holier than thou" attitude when I met you on the road, which is why I didn't want your help and I chose not to politely ask you to follow the law. After 10 years of dealing with this arrogance I have reached my fill and am choosing to respond with strength. Believe it or not, I started out on this project a pretty nice guy.

And you can pretend all you want that I am threatening you, but all I have ever said is that I will defend myself against physical aggression towards me (i.e madjeeper666 offering to "drop me") and I will prosecute, to the full extent allowed by law, anyone who willfully violates my private property rights. We live in America, not Russia, and private property is still protected for now. There is not a big welcome sign on my land for anyone who feels like "checking things" out.

Leave me alone, follow the laws of our country, and we will both have the joy of never having to deal with each other ever again.

My comment is being taken out of context. I'm saying the Forest Service thinks it is their road, and again I should say, you need to take that up with them.

I am reasonable, which is why I'm trying to help you source the point of your frustration, and direct you in a way that it can be solved legally. Through the FS. I don't even get where you are going with courts and lawyers, and don't even see why that would be necessary.

Your only battle, will be with the feds, not us. We are just trying to say your beef should be with them, not us. You can't get angry with people for doing what is legal.I am sorry if I misread your posting to mean that it reflected your opinion of what the public "owns". I know exactly what the Forest Service thinks, because we walked the land, made a plan together, and then I built the road. What this has pointed out is that I cannot afford to be informal and need to shut down the green road until a legal agreement is implemented, otherwise others may take legal action against me to establish public ownership where none exists. I have no problem with legal activity, it is the illegal that is driving me crazy.

Prescriptive rights may not apply unless that road (skid road) was there and being used uninterrupted for 5 years prior to March 4, 1972, there can be no prescriptive rights applied.

If it was in use 5 years prior to March 4, 1972, then yes, a prescriptive right could be upheld, however, someone would have to assert that right. And being that there is already one road accessing the OHV area, I doubt you would have much interest in a court battle over a duplicate road.

So your getting that road (the green road) is entirely dependent on your agreement with the Forest Service.

What this has pointed out is that I cannot afford to be informal and need to shut down the green road until a legal agreement is implemented

And this is where I am going....because they think it is their road, you cannot block access to a federal trail until they say it's OK.

There is a process to go through to close that road.

Also, on another note. It is legal for ATV's and motorcycles to travel unmaintained county roads, and Federal roads in the winter. If it is not being plowed by CalTrans or under County contract it is open to OHV's (in the Winter).

Wentworth Springs Road, Iron Mountain Road are two examples of this rule.

So the two ATV's you saw on Eagle Lakes Road were there legally.

I am not pissed at the world, I am pissed at you and people like you specifically. You displayed this "holier than thou" attitude when I met you on the road, which is why I didn't want your help and I chose not to politely ask you to follow the law. After 10 years of dealing with this arrogance I have reached my fill and am choosing to respond with strength. Believe it or not, I started out on this project a pretty nice guy.

I really wish you could point out to me SPECIFICALLY how I displayed a "holier than thou" attitude. Believe me, that was not my intent, and even right now, it is not my intent. All I'm saying is if we can legally drive down ELR to access Pierce OHV, then you should not try to stop us because the road happens to go thru your property with an easement granted for such purpose. Up until very recently, I never went past Indian Springs to access Fordyce - why would I, it's shorter that way. IIRC, when we encountered you in your backhoe, we even asked if you knew about a road that went off of ELR that took you to Pierce OHV. You said "there's no access to the OHV area thru here". Well, now we have learned that was an outright lie. Perhaps not with a 20 foot snow berm there isn't, but technically there is access to the OHV area isn't there?

My intent was not to piss you off even more or present a "holier than thou" attitude, but you have to admit, you have been coming on rather strong in this forum. I apologize for the idiots you encounter on a daily basis, but I am not them. I understand frustration, believe me, and as I said before, now that we know the situation, we can definitely empathize with you.

And you can pretend all you want that I am threatening you, but all I have ever said is that I will defend myself against physical aggression towards me (i.e madjeeper666 offering to "drop me") and I will prosecute, to the full extent allowed by law, anyone who willfully violates my private property rights. We live in America, not Russia, and private property is still protected for now. There is not a big welcome sign on my land for anyone who feels like "checking things" out.

Leave me alone, follow the laws of our country, and we will both have the joy of never having to deal with each other ever again.

I don't have to "pretend" you have made mention several times throughout this thread - concealed weapons permit, raising food and protecting against "terrorist attacks" (uhm, so we're 'terrorists' now??) and various other subtleties. I totally support your right to defend yourself if you do in fact feel threatened. Please don't make that a blanket statement though, not everyone you encounter on that road is looking to 'drop you'.

I do believe that everyone needs to just calm the f*** down and let's come up with a reasonable solution to this issue. Typing all this crap out is getting tiresome and is accomplishing absolutely nothing. I'm willing to be involved (if invited) and will offer calm, reasonable and intelligent input.

Just for the record Mike, I was the third quad that day. The only thing I want to say is to make it crystal clear, the ONLY reason we went past the gate (we saw the sign that said "end county road") and onto your property is because we saw the stuck truck. We had no idea that you or anyone had winter residence back there... so it was actually ME that suggested following your footprints and I led us back to find you. Our only concern was for the drivers (your) safety. So we slowly followed the footprints when we ran into you on the tractor, then the lightbulb went on... Oh, he lives here, all is good. Then we turned around, stopped at the truck and offered to help. The rest was explained.

Honestly, I could tell (when you came down to get your car) you were pretty stressed out over something and NOT in a good mood. Due to this thread, I can totally understand now. If I were in your shoes, I dont think I'd have as much patience as you do. So I get it. No worries.

Just wanted to be clear that our intentions were very good, we didn't trash your berms and we parked off the road. I'm not into internet BS, I intend to be up in the area quite a bit this year and hope to meet you face to face and will pull for a good interaction. We are NOT your enemies. Cheers,

jeff

While I understand people are passionate about land use and private property it seems we are getting nowhere. We have taken a few steps forward and now have taken a few backward. I would suggest leaving this thread and start a new one if you truly want to post constructive comments.

And this is where I am going....because they think it is their road, you cannot block access to a federal trail until they say it's OK.

There is a process to go through to close that road.

Also, on another note. It is legal for ATV's and motorcycles to travel unmaintained county roads, and Federal roads in the winter. If it is not being plowed by CalTrans or under County contract it is open to OHV's (in the Winter).

Wentworth Springs Road, Iron Mountain Road are two examples of this rule.

So the two ATV's you saw on Eagle Lakes Road were there legally.ELR is a county maintained road (you can see the sign "end of county maintained road" right before my property), but obviously that issue will need to be clarified. It seems to me that the FS would have a hard time asserting rights on my land without legal documents to support their claim and a fully legal easement as an alternative, but I will need to get legal advice on that.

ELR is a county maintained road (you can see the sign "end of county maintained road" right before my property), but obviously that issue will need to be clarified. It seems to me that the FS would have a hard time asserting rights on my land without legal documents to support their claim and a fully legal easement as an alternative, but I will need to get legal advice on that.

Yes it is....but my point was it is not maintained in the winter by the county or caltrans. It is maintained by you for personal business reasons, to allow your guests to have access to Shinneyboo in the Winter.

The sign indicates where the county maintenance level changes.

And please Mike, be assured no one here wants rights to your land. I feel there is a distinct difference between using someones Land, and using a road or trail that crosses someones Land.

And really, the expense of an Attorney is not necessary.

Just call Joe Chavez or David Michaels at the Tahoe National Forest Office in Nevada City. They can clear it up for you rather quickly and outline the steps needed to close the road if that's your goal.

Honestly, I could tell (when you came down to get your car) you were pretty stressed out over something and NOT in a good mood. Due to this thread, I can totally understand now. If I were in your shoes, I dont think I'd have as much patience as you do. So I get it. No worries. You are right, I was pretty stressed out. That was the forth time I had grabbed the melting snowpack with my plow and been thrown into the snow bank and was definitely not in the mood to be giving directions (I will not be giving my wife any money again this year because I took my annual profits of $10,000 and bought an appropriately sized plow truck).

You have to understand, people drive up to me as I am standing in my driveway and shout at me in their Lexus' "Hey, where is Eagle Lakes? I know it is down this road because I can see it from the freeway" (That is called Spaulding Lake, dips**t). They don't say, "Excuse me, sir. I am sorry to disturb you, but I was wondering if you would be willing to help me." They just treat me like my role in life is to give them directions.

So, no, there is no way that you could have known that one of my pet peeves is people asking directions of me before they introduce themselves and say hello as if I get paid to serve their directional needs. You guys were not that bad. You drove down the road, I told you that there was no access (for your vehicles, at that time of year [sorry, if I sometimes don't go into detail and explain the intricacies of the easement issues, but I didn't think I was lying to you]) you offered to help, I declined because I thought my backhoe was (and did) make short work of it, and then you went on your way.

I wasn't really upset with you that day, I was just hating my life and thinking about running away to a beach in Mexico and leaving everything behind. I got upset after the fact by the "geez, we did nothing wrong, we are just good Samaritans who were victimized by your meanness." attitude.

There obviously needs to be a legal determination on whether quadding on ELR is legal or not. Being pulled by a truck on a snowboard is also a popular sport on ELR, as is sledding down the road. I plan to argue my need to plow uninterrupted by people recreating on the road, and pointing out to the CHP and county that they will have liability if an accident happens and they have specifically allowed this type of activity. I think I know how that discussion will come out.

You folks who are trying to assert your land use rights onto a county roadway (again, I really could care less what you do on public lands as long as it doesn't put my family or guests in danger) are going to damage your case. If you try to make this issue about you right to use ELR as an unofficial snowpark then I think it could harm your efforts to pursue your legitimate rights to access to the Pierce OHV area.

Just my unsolicited advice.

Yes it is....but my point was it is not maintained in the winter by the county or caltrans. It is maintained by you for personal business reasons, to allow your guests to have access to Shinneyboo in the Winter.

The sign indicates where the county maintenance level changes.

And please Mike, be assured no one here wants rights to your land. I feel there is a distinct difference between using someones Land, and using a road or trail that crosses someones Land.

And really, the expense of an Attorney is not necessary.

Just call Joe Chavez or David Michaels at the Tahoe National Forest Office in Nevada City. They can clear it up for you rather quickly and outline the steps needed to close the road if that's your goal.I applied for an encroachment permit to plow it on behalf of the county -- I am like a free independent contractor, so you are incorrect on this point.

Whenever a land owner hears people talking about asserting prescriptive easement rights, prudence dictates getting legal advice. I hope the 1972 date is accurate information because that would put my mind at ease, but please pardon me if I don't rely on the opinion of folks who adamantly advocate for public ownership of my land even though they do not need it to access public lands. The only need of the easement thru my property is to "enhance" the OHV experience by offering a loop so that you don't need to back track back up the Grouse Ridge Road to the Carlyle Rd and out to the Indian Springs Trail head.

Also, thanks for the advice on how to handle the FS, but I have asked Joe to take this one directly to the Yuba River District Ranger, Jeannie Masquelier, because there are larger policy and liability issues at play.

I really wish you could point out to me SPECIFICALLY how I displayed a "holier than thou" attitude. How about calling yourself "Rock God" for one.

How about calling yourself "Rock God" for one.

:laughing:

Hahahahahaha - if you were a registered user for longer than a month you would realize that is a title assigned by Pirate4X4 based on the number of posts you have. Just so happens, I have been around for quite a long time and have posted enough to be presented with that moniker.

I don't have to "pretend" you have made mention several times throughout this thread - concealed weapons permit, raising food and protecting against "terrorist attacks" (uhm, so we're 'terrorists' now??) and various other subtleties.Please read more carefully before typing. I didn't call you terrorists, I said that because of domestic terrorists, like People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, the trespassing laws have been strengthen if you are raising animals for food. The loophole used to be that you could trespass all you wanted and were only criminally liable when you refused to leave after having been asked -- which means practically that you could harass me endlessly without legal consequence.

And all I have ever said on this forum is that those of you who might be thinking of "dropping me" (the only actual threat on this tread) need to know that I am not a "granola" and I will avail myself of my constitutionally protected rights to self defense so that hopefully they will think twice about F**king with a lone guy on the road they don't like when surrounded by ten of their buddies. I never have, nor never will be the physical aggressor, in relation to issues on this road. Yes, I might get upset and angry, however it is a huge line to cross to even threaten to harm someone because of a disagreement (which has happened to me twice this year alone). I had a worker once who was informed by a tough urban youth that "If my kid wasn't here, I would kill you" and that guy was camped right smack dab in the middle of my land. Now those are good family values to teach your kids. You guys are coming into a lot of history here.

I regret expressing my fears for my personal safety and the safety of my family and staff and my determination to protect ourselves vigorously, because it has come across as saber rattling not as the caution I had intended. But you can all be assured that however much I may disagree with you about points of law or what your rights are, I will never attempt to cause you physically harm to enforce my point of view. I can only pray that the same holds true for all of you.

Round and round we go. Locked

Start a new thread if you truly want to post constructive comments.

I talked to Jeff earlier today and fully agree with his call to lock this thread. It's just going 'round and 'round. The end result seems to be that Michael has certain rights and so does the general public. Hopefully we can agree on a way to come to a consensus on the situation without involving courts or law enforcement.

As Jeff said, if someone wants to start a thread with some constructive conversation or scheduling a face to face BBQ/get together/problem solving event that would be great. I think the online conversation has pretty much been exhausted but if a thread starts with some good coming out of it that would be great too.