Welcome to the next installment of the

Topic of the Week

Summer is coming to an end. Fall will be upon us soon and Old Man Winter is just around the corner.

Are you gonna put the rig into cold storage for 3-5 months? Or or you gonna wheel?

Put your mittens and ear muffs on and let's talk about winter wheeling.

Safety
Flotation vs digging to the bottom?
Snow recovery/extraction techniques
Not falling through frozen lakes

You know the routine.

http://www.respite.org/images/cj66dean/01snowrun2.jpg

1) don't go by yourself
2) go prepaired to stay the night even if it is supposed to be a short day run
3) have a way to rebead a tire if it comes off because they do quite often snow wheeling
4) with those covered have a good time

Make sure you take along a teenager or two to climb up the trees with the wench line. I used to hate being said teenager!

Regarding flotation. The picture Dean posted was from a day of 3+ feet of fresh snow while we were there. We shoulda gone skiing... :D Dean was running 14.5" tires and I was running 12.5s. We both got through just about everything, but when climbing something steep Dean could get a little further. My 12.5" tires would just dig to the icy granite and spin.

And another - dress for the occasion.

Paul

I wheel more in the winter than the summer. Heat sucks:D

These are a few years old
http://www.oldjeep.com/images/GrandRapids/c11_img.jpg http://www.oldjeep.com/images/GrandRapids/inMoguls.jpg

I'm no pro, but I have found that All-Terrains or even street-type truck tires (Wrangler GSAs and the like) typically do better than digging tires (boggers, swampers, claws) on snow runs because of the flotation factor. If you know the snow is gonna be shallower than your axles then go for digging, but it gets hard to plow a path when the snow is 3' deep. ATs and street tires also generally do better on ice due to their siping, but you could always sipe your mud tires.

Wheel spin is generally the enemy, once a tire starts spinning it starts digging. Once you stop forward progress don't punch it, just stop, roll back a foot, and then try to rebuild your momentum again without spinning tires. Sometimes you may need wheelspin and a lot of momentum to make an icy climb, but I'll generally try the no wheelspin method first.

Next, for hill descents: stay off the brakes!! Try using engine compression (although not too much cause it can also lock em up) and lightly pumping the breaks so that you can do some steering correction.

If you slide off the trail, try snatch blocking to a tree a little ahead of where you are on the side of the trail you want to get back to. Hook the winch cable to your rear bumper, but make sure it isn't hitting your tires. Start driving forward and winching and you should be able to get yourself back on the trail.

I like wearing multiple layers. Start with my long johns, followed by waffle shirt and a thick cotton shirt, and a pair of jeans. I wear some cold weather thorlo socks (wool works well, too) in my hiking boots and then top it off with my ski pants and jacket with a pair of gortex gloves, scarf, and hat. This is good because if I get warm I can start taking off layers, and it is also still possible to move. (Unlike the kid in the christmas story :flipoff2: )

I usually pack extra clothes to change into if I do get some of them wet (at least socks, gloves, and hat, usually jeans and shirt). We usually pack extra blankets and food over what we have for summer trips.

in south Louisiana we see MAYBE(<--stressed) 4 inches of snow in a century, we dont have the pleasure of wheeling in snow but it can get colder than a witch's titty, always bring thermal under-wear!!!

Bigger, wider, softer tires are needed. the wider the better. You don't need much flex in the winter for the most part since the trails you are running will most likely look like a highway in the summer.... The lighter the Jeep the better.

As for the guy who suggested wearing cotton. You Dipshit.:flipoff2: your gonna freeze your ass off if you end up having to rely on that system for ALL your insulation.

Your layers should be like this. NO COTTON (this includes your briefs) silk or synthetic silk for the first layer. Light polypro for the second. Gortex or other wind rain blocker. That is all you need for 90% of the time. This is all I wear and trust me it is longer, deeper and colder here than were you are in the lower 48.

For additional body layers I carry a Goosedown vest and a long sleeve Polarfleece Jacket and Pants.

Smartwool are the sock's of choice. They come in different thickness to deal with different circulation abilities.

Boots should have 400 grams of Thinsulate in them at least (mine have 800). A FULL gortex liner. Vibram or Airbob sole (I like the Vibram since it seems to grip in the slush better). Whatever outershell you want but I like leather.

Where a stocking cap. duh.

Gloves, Gortex, qualofill. Mittens are better.

Take and eat, Powerbars or the like. It goes without saying while driving but drinking alchohol will lower your body temp and should be saved for when your standing by the bonfire at night (I personally like BUtterscotch Snaaps in the winter).

Now onto the vehicle.

Antifreeze. Use it and make sure it is correct.

Basic upkeep should suffice but foreseeing a problem and fixing it early could save you some cold fingers.

Vehicle recovery. WINCH. You will need and use it A LOT. Be careful winching to smaller trees as they can actually get really brittle and break a lot easier than one would think.

Don't go alone.

Bring snowshoes incase you have to walk out.

Bring some nice dry wood to start a fire.

Bring enough food and sleeping bags for everyone in your vehicle. Food should last you 3-4 days worth (one MRE a day is just barely enough food, I just take a case of them and call it good).

Pot to melt snow in and make water.

Flare's you can start just about anything on fire with a flare.

That should get you all going. Most importantly is to not go alone and to HAVE FUN! WInter is 9 months long up here so think of me!

A working heater is your friend!

http://home.earthlink.net/~jdrios/My%20snowcat.jpg


Jes

Originally posted by 66CJdean
[2) go prepaired to stay the night even if it is supposed to be a short day run


Probably the most important one if you ask me! With dont go by yourself a close if not TIED second ;)

we dont see much snow in OKLA but when we do it only lasts about a week at the most. most wheeling i do is pulling people out of ditches.

i think Alaska ZJ has good advise (hell he lives in alaska) i would proly do every thing he said except i always under dress like a dumbass...even hunting i am always ass cold.

Chris G.

Originally posted by Alaska ZJ

As for the guy who suggested wearing cotton. You Dipshit.:flipoff2: your gonna freeze your ass off if you end up having to rely on that system for ALL your insulation.



Sorry you caught me on that one. I forgot to mention that my long johns aren't the k-mart cotton types, but a synth blend that keeps me comfy from about +40 and below. I'd have to look at the label to see what it is but it isn't silk, i've had them for about five years and I'll be bummed if they ever wear out. I picked them up at the sporting goods store in Sweden, and so far my ass hasn't frozen off after three winters an hour south of the circle in Sweden.

you mean you can really drive in deep snow?

Originally posted by Aggro
you mean you can really drive in deep snow?

We can....You cant :flipoff2: :p

OMFG you clown.:rolleyes: :eek: :flipoff2:

Damm that's gonna leave a mark

What about the river crossings the only thing I know is to go slow or else it builds waves under the top ice under and in front of you which when they hit the shore can damage the top ice from the impact and down you go. Why not just wear snowboarding bibs thats what I use. I found a pair at costco for $25. Plus we all know cold hands can't work on a broken rig much less undo a zipper.:D Latex gloves will do in a pinch

Originally posted by MOVEASIDE
What about the river crossings the only thing I know is to go slow or else it builds waves under the top ice under and in front of you which when they hit the shore can damage the top ice from the impact and down you go. Why not just were snowboarding bibs thats what I use. I found a pair at costco for $25. Plus we all know cold hands can't work on a broken rig much less undo a zipper.:D

The greater risk is to those behind you. Driving on ice can create pressure waves in the ice itself, and if the guys behind you hit a crest with their tires, it can send them into the water. This is why you don't follow close when driving on a lake. (It's an icefishing thing)

Tell the truth you guys saw this on the discovery channel special about Alaska ice Truckers right?

Originally posted by Bonestripper
Tell the truth you guys saw this on the discovery channel special about Alaska ice Truckers right?

Uh, no - 32 years of living in MN and you learn a lot about ice :D

Damn it Brentt! I was going to make a nice informed post here since I have lived in AK my whole short life, but you pretty much killed the thread. :flipoff2: I don't have much to add other than a person might think about carrying a small plastic sled for dragging their gear out on. Much easier than carrying it, and it only weighs a pound or less, so you don't really have an excuse not to carry one.

Brook

KITTY LITTER! Throw it under your tires if you get stuck!

Well, I guess that's probably not the best tip for wheeling, but it works well on a car if you just need that little bit extra to get moving again. Ashes work too, but not as well... Or floor mats. :D

All this talk about snow.
Down here the only snow we get is imported.

as far as driving on a frozen lake, I personally wouldn't do it with my jeep unless I saw someone do it with a comprably heavy veichle, but having said that up in ny where I go snowmobiling, when the lakes freeze the forrest rangers check thickness and if it's thick enough, they divert the roads across the lakes. So, having said all that I would just use extreme caution when going over ice, I've seen too many snowmobiles, which are less than half the weight of a jeep end up on the bottom of the lakes. Ohh yeah, and as stated above, take double the supplies you'll think you need cause freezing to death ain't a fun.

Originally posted by YJ_Swamper
in south Louisiana we see MAYBE(<--stressed) 4 inches of snow in a century, we dont have the pleasure of wheeling in snow but it can get colder than a witch's titty, always bring thermal under-wear!!!

Colder than a witch's titty in south Louisiana???:crybaby: :crybaby2:

When winter hits I always throw in a "kit" of disposable handwarmers, blanket, flares, dehydrated food and a flask of JD.

okay- Jess

Originally posted by beerisgood
as far as driving on a frozen lake, I personally wouldn't do it with my jeep unless I saw someone do it with a comprably heavy veichle, but having said that up in ny where I go snowmobiling, when the lakes freeze the forrest rangers check thickness and if it's thick enough, they divert the roads across the lakes. So, having said all that I would just use extreme caution when going over ice, I've seen too many snowmobiles, which are less than half the weight of a jeep end up on the bottom of the lakes. Ohh yeah, and as stated above, take double the supplies you'll think you need cause freezing to death ain't a fun.

Guys put single wide trailers on the ice in MN:D The oil truck even drove out to the island to fill the tank for the cabin.

Make sure the ice is at least 8" thick before you drive on it, keep your doors open/unlocked incase you have to make a quick exit:D

If you've got a power invertor, a couple of old water bed heating pads make for toasty heated seats when slipped under the seat covers, oh yeah, and they can keep your water can from freezing. Dress well, pack dry clothes, lots of food, lots of muchies, trudging around in 3' of snow usues a lot of energy, replentish it often, take extra fuel too, a trail that can be run on 1/4 tank in the summer will take a full tank in 3' of snow.

Originally posted by oldjeep


The greater risk is to those behind you. Driving on ice can create pressure waves in the ice itself, and if the guys behind you hit a crest with their tires, it can send them into the water. This is why you don't follow close when driving on a lake. (It's an icefishing thing) What about one at a time?

Originally posted by Alaska ZJ

Take and eat, Powerbars or the like.

I agree with Alaska ZJ. Good advice. One thing though... when considering the above, go for "the like" as Powerbars + Cold Weather = Broken Teeth

Personally I go for cliff bars. I am at 10,000 - 14,000 feet most of the winter, they seem to stay edible longer, even better if you keep them inside your jacket.

Bagles and a jar of peanut butter work good for some quick power food too.

One thing I have not seen mentioned : A shovel... I always take one just in case. Can be used for making a snow cave, digging out tracks, etc. You know, the stuff you use a shovel for.

Dressing for the weather is good, but do not forget to bring a full change of clothes (and boots) with you on the trail. There is nothing worse than to be out on the trail and for one reason or another you get wet. That will ruin your day for sure. And drink lots of water, the cold will dehydrate you faster than you think.

A few years ago, when I lived in Montana I got stuck twelve miles from any road in the snow. I was wearing running shoes, jeans and a fleece jacket. I also got stuck at 11:30 at night and was alone with no food nor water. Well, after getting soaked and physically exhausted from laying in the snow trying to dig myself out with my bear hands, and sleeping in the jeep in 14 degree weather, I was ready to go home. About eight miles down the road I found some people snow camping who could give me a ride into town so I could go bakc with a friend who had a winch on his truck. Let's just say I learned alot of important things that long cold night. Learn from my mistake so you don't have to learn from your own.

Try not to eat ice/snow...and I don't just mean the yellow stuff. It takes more energy to heat and melt. If you used all your other drinking water try to store as much as you can by melting it with your engine, candles, flares, whatever.

COTTON=DEATH

I want to reemphasize this here. I have had a lot of mountaineering training and the biggest point here is that cotton is bad news for being outside. The reason is that cotton doesn't dry for quite a long time once it is wet. It holds the moisture against your skin and it will speed up the radiance of your body heat. This is really bad news if you are sweaty from digging out your rig, or you have to walk in deep snow.

The best materials is man made polypropelyne/fleece followed up by wool. I usually wear polypor long underwear, fleece pants and goretext outer shell pants.

AT's rock in the snow as they have many more edges to catch the snow than, say, swampers.

Kitty litter is made of clay that when mixed with water melted from spinning tires will make a very slick mixture.

Buy a winch

SeanP

Originally posted by SeanP
Kitty litter is made of clay that when mixed with water melted from spinning tires will make a very slick mixture.

Whatever dude.

Tell that to the Mustang 5.0 with wide-ass fatcats on the back of it that I had in college.

I went to NDSU in FARGO, ND FOR GAWD'S FAWKING' SAKE!!!

The bag of Tidy cat 3 that I kept in the hatch got me out of a jam more times than I can count on one hand. the extra weight back there didn't hurt either.

:flipoff2:
Jake

Originally posted by bgreen
Damn it Brentt! I was going to make a nice informed post here since I have lived in AK my whole short life, but you pretty much killed the thread. :flipoff2: I don't have much to add other than a person might think about carrying a small plastic sled for dragging their gear out on. Much easier than carrying it, and it only weighs a pound or less, so you don't really have an excuse not to carry one.

Brook

:flipoff2: Right back at you. Good advice with the sled. Not to mention that at camp that night after a few :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: it is LOTS of fun to go ripping downhill.

Cotten Kills... thats the motto.

Everyone seems pretty on target. Be sure to drink LOTs of fluids.

Emergancy stoves (the kind that burn little cubes of stuff) work great in a pinch. My MSR Whisperlite Int 600 is always with my jeep in the winter (with FUEL) you would be amazed at what evenluke warm water will do for you and your spirits in cold weather.

Dont forget WATER proof outer layers.

I genderally wear my polypro long jons then some sort of jeans or the like, then either snow pants or my gortex pants (dependin on how cold) and then my gortex outer shell jacket.

Find a way to keep the wind out. It will kill you. 10000 layers of cloths that let wind through will not keep you as warm as a few layers and a wind proof shell (exageration)

Dry kindling/wood it is hard to start wet wood on fire.

SUN Glasses - snow blindness sucks

Carry a chainsaw with you.
Be very cautiouse about parking or camping under big trees, falling branches known as widowmakers are unpredictable and can be deadly.
If your group is struggeling in the snow, avoid driving durring the middle of the day when the snow has melted, it is easier to wait untill evening or early morning when the snow is frozen and firm.
Sleeping in a blanket folded in half in your sleeping bag,( with the fold towards the zipper), will greatly increase the warmth of your bag.
A cheap set of Gaitors will help keep your feet much warmer and drier.

I work in Antarctica and alot of what is said here is very good advise. I think the best advise is the type of clothing to bring along the food and hydration. BUT most often a way of comunication for help can help you before all that is in need, not saying they are not important cause they very much are but comunication is very important also. A normal AM cb is not a very good form of comunication they have limited range. Cell phones deppends on area if they cover or not. If some form of comunication can not be made then a scheduled check in or scheduled time of return with someone who is back home and can get help to you is also a very good idea even if you have comunication is a very good idea cause other things can happen also. Here we have both a long range radio with repeaters around also we check in and out with destination's points with time of arrival and return. Plus we have survival bags on all vehicles leaveing station. Also when leaveing flag routes or when weather may lose visibilty we use GPS can also be a life savor knowing a direction to go when visibilty is gone. A note on that don't go driven off a cliff or into a river, or any other natural thing that can hurt you souly trusting that GPS.

As far as vehicle beeing used, Tracks beat wheels in the snow is that simple. We have Matt Track equiped trucks here they will go far more places in the snow then a wheel equiped truck will but Matt Tracks have there problems also, like there torsion arm designed to keep the thing from rolling into the body of the truck, through rough terrain they break parts, not hard to fix but they do break. We have a great deal of machines designed to drive thru snow here I just stayed to the trucks to keep on subject. We have trucks with A/T type tread at least I consider the Mickey Thompson Baja tire like a A/T and the Dick Cepecks, we also have some trucks equiped with Denman Ground Hawgs, I personaly preffer the groundhawgs I think maybe the tire area might be a personal prefferance and driveing style. But it is true the more aggresive groundhawg will dig when vehicle stop movement and tire spun so do the A/T's but alot less. But my prefferance is the more aggresive tire keeps track better and bites harder so less chance of no forward movement where an A/T slides alot and slips. But that is here and the snow here is a bit different and can't really be compared to your's so is what works for you in your area I feel anyway. Lot's of good info here on the Pirate board like always.

As far as vehicle beeing used, Tracks beat wheels in the snow is that simple. We have Matt Track equiped trucks here they will go far more places in the snow then a wheel equiped truck will but Matt Tracks have there problems also, like there torsion arm designed to keep the thing from rolling into the body of the truck, through rough terrain they break parts, not hard to fix but they do break. We have a great deal of machines designed to drive thru snow here I just stayed to the trucks to keep on subject.

Can we get a tech article on converting a Jeep to tracks?:smokin:

Seriously dude, this thread is almost four years old. :rolleyes:

Uh, no - 32 years of living in MN and you learn a lot about ice :D
Born there. They build towns on the lakes in the winter...:D

if ya want a really good tool for traction. it takes up alot of room but chain link fence works wonders in the snow.

not a single one of you fools has mentioned the best traction device running.
TIRE CHAINS

If you're winter wheeling, good sets will run you about 100-200 an axle depending on tire size.
Yea, you're gonna have to be careful because they'll destroy your body work in short order, but you won't have to worry about traction. or kitty litter.

My advice is when you're plowing through snow drifts, first check them and make sure they aren't rock hard.

I got a little air in my ZJ last year from one drift... :D

Edit: Holy double resurrection, Batman!

I think there's even another TOTW on winter wheeling out there, or another post because I remember commenting and I don't see it in here... maybe a MOD can merge them ? Good info.