Hey Everyone, I am new to the site and wanted to get some information and opinions on my new 4x4 project.

Heres a little background:

I just recently purchased an older Econoline E-350 Diesel 4x4. The conversion was done by some company in Colorado, I can't remember the name right now, but I will look at the badge again later.

Anyways, this van was used as a senior citizens transport vehicle, and as such, it came with a High-Top Roof and a Wheel Chair Lift. It is also an extended version. The interior is pretty beat up and it has a couple of rows of bench/more bus like seats. The passenger doors are 'High-Top' as well and don't open and close well.

I also have a 1978 E-250 (460/C6) van that has been in our family since it was brand new. It's in great condition for it's age and the interior is absolutely perfect, being updated sometime in the early 90's. There's a really long story about this van that I won't go into right now, but needless to say we like having it around.

So, due to the condition of the '87 Diesel and the fact that the '78 isn't going anywhere, my plans are to swap the 4x4 setup and possibly the engine/trans from the '87 into the '78.

Our family mechanic who will being doing the swap recommends that it should be an 'All or Nothing' swap. Either we swap the axles, trans case, engine, & tranny or just leave things the way there are. (I think this was due to the output shafts on the gas tranny verses the diesel tranny matching up to the transfer case or something like that?)

- I was just wondering everyone's opinion on this? Do you see any problems with swapping everything from the '87 to the '78? Anything we would need to be worried about?

- If everything turns out the way it should, then I will have a left over High-Top Van Body, a 460 Engine/C6 Trans, and a 3.73 rear end (I think??) from the '78. Does anyone know of anybody that would be interested in these parts? How much is the 460/C6 worth?

- Lastly, I have found a Banks Sidewinder Turbo Kit on an 86 F-350 6.9 Diesel 2WD Crew Cab Long Bed. The guy that is selling it wants to sell the truck whole. So I am looking at about $500.00 to pickup the truck, complete with Turbo. (It has a blown headgasket)

Is there anything worth salvaging/trying to sell on this truck? From what the guy says it has a 3 Speed Auto Tranny and supposedly the rear axle ('K' as shown on the door tag) might be worth something? Does anyone know what axles this might be? What gearing?

Also, Would the 6.9 be worth some kind of a core deposit/$$$?

I am not really looking to make any money, but I would like to try to break close to even if possible.

Any info or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Sounds like a cool plan. I'm assuming you are not going to have any issues regarding emmission control/smog checks with regards to this swap and your states laws? Also I'm guessing there will be quite a bit of fab work involved even though you have a donor vehicle and so I hope your mechanic knows what he is getting into especially if the two vehicle frames and not identiclal. Has your mechanic given you an estimate for the conversion labor? What will happen if it goes "overbudget with regards to labor time etc")? Well with regards to the Turbo kit it may or may not fit in a van chassis so check that out possibly with Banks. Best of luck if you go forward with the conversion!

Jason :)

well i have to say this is a cool swap but, id be keeping the 460 / c6 way less work on the wiring side and its already there...

oh and a turbo in a van on the diesel works well if you do go that way, here is a start of one
http://www.rrorc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38701&highlight=turbo

Id keep the 460/C6 combo and either run a divorced case or convert the c6 to 4wd. You would still be able to run the 80's transfer case if you converted the 70's transmission. Unlike gm, ford cases are pretty much one size fits all.

I think this is the first time Ive heard of someone wanting to replace a 460 with a 6.9. Usually its the other way around.

This sounds cool... Unusual, but cool.:smokin:

I would NOT swap the conversion kit and diesel from frame to frame. Just unbolt the body off the diesel 4x4, and scrap that body. Then unbolt the body off the 78, and swap the 78 body onto the diesel 4x4 frame & drivetrain. The bodies should be close enough that you're not going to have too many problems pulling such a thing off. I re-read the description of the two vehicles again, and the frame length would be an issue, BUT trimming the converted frame down to fit your body will be easier than trying to retrofit the diesel engine & 4wd system into your frame. After shortening the frame, have a new driveshaft made, and you're back on the road.

The F250 with the Sidewinder kit is definitely worth it, and IMO, it would be stupid not to put the Sidewinder on the engine you're running in your swap vehicle. The 6.9 is a GREAT engine, super durable, super dependable. It just gets a bad rap because its extremely gutless for being a 400+ cid diesel. Adding the Sidewinder is going to bring that engine to life. IIRC, an intercooled turbo will almost always double the HP & torque rating of any naturally aspirated diesel

Swapping your van's body onto the other shortened frame will not ruin your van's history and you'll have something that is 1) dependable, 2) fun to drive and most importantly 3) very high on the unique factor!

i agree with willys put the get the turbo put it on the the van pull the body of the 87 and put the 78 body on it. the body mounts should line up pretty close if not exact, the extended vans rear suspension should be in the same place as the 78 they just made the frame slightly longer on the extended van along with another two body mounts at least this was the case with my 4x4 van. if its a pathfinder conversion get crossover steering since you cant get the tie rod ends anymore for the pathfinder conversions. The 6.9 is weak however extremely reliable, get the 500 dollar truck the turbo set up is worth the 500 dollars turn up the injection pump at least 3flat turns and you end up with a reliable van that should pull around 18mpg with decent power. The truck i would pull the motor and keep at least the injection pump as a spare even if you dont plan on using it and you probably could sell the motor for 300 with blown headgasket at a minimum.

Thanks everybody for your feedback and replys.

Brutpwr: What problems could I run into as far as the emissions/smog controls? I guess I haven't thought far down the road. The two frames are indentical, minus the extend length of the one. (See comments below) My mechanic has given me a 'High' estimate of $1,500.00 to do the full conversion. He believes he can do it for much less. Once he takes a closer look at both vans (he has worked on the '78 quite a bit, and as of yet has only seen very detailed pictures of the 87' setup), he will give me a final figure. Once I get that figure, he won't go over that cost in 'Labor' unless something really big comes up.

alx & Ak F250:
What would be your major reasons for keeping the 460/C6 setup? Would you still take the 460/C6 over a 6.9 Turbo? If so, why? What about the Mpg difference in the two engines? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Willys101 4lo & alaskan goodoleboy:
I, too, have thought that it would be much easier just to unbolt the two bodys and switch them out. Do either of you have any experience in swapping a body onto a different frame? I have heard this suggested else where, but people always reply that this 'sounds' a lot easier than it really would be.

From what I can tell (I haven't done specific measurements, but it's pretty obvious) the two frames are identical, minus the extra foot or two of the extended van frame. The Axle and Body mounts are in the same location on both frames. This would allow for the axles to be moved from the '87 Diesel 4x4 to the '78 Frame, or also move the Body from the '78 to the '87 Diesel Frame. So, really both of these appear to be viable options.

Now, onto some of the problems that I potentially see with each of the options.

Option 1: '87 Diesel 4x4 Setup (Axle, T-Case, Engine, & Tranny) to '78 Frame/Body

- Front Axle: The front axle on the 4x4 van is a leaf spring setup with dual mounted shocks. The '78 has front coil springs.
The rear mount of the front axle would bolt right in, but the front mount has been custom made and welded to the frame itself. In order to move this axle to the '78 frame a similar mount would have to be created. Not necessarily a big deal, but still some extra work that would be needed in order to do the swap.

- Transfer Case: The transfer case would obviously need to be swapped and some extra work would be needed to bolt/mount it in place correctly.

- Engine/Tranny: Huge amount of work to remove the 460/C6 and then replace them with the 6.9/Tranny.
Also, I assume there would be a fair amount of wiring needed to get the diesel engine to work correctly in its new home.

Option 2: '78 Body to '87 Frame
- Everything connected to both frames would have to be removed and unmounted. (Wiring, Engine parts mounted to frame/firewall, steering column?, what else?) Does anyone have any idea if all of the wiring for the brake lights, blinkers, etc. would match up without any problems? I am assuming they would, but you never know.

- Unbolting the bodys would be the easy part. Raising them high enough to clear the engine, etc. and pushing the wheels/frame out from underneath the body might be another story.
Would the '78 Body be strong enough to only be supported in 4 lifting points by a regular shop lift? Any concern that the body might twist or turn while in the air?

- Any concern to cut/shorten the extended frame?

- Wiring would still be needed, but I don't believe it would be as intense as option 1?

Option 3: '87 Diesel 4x4 Setup to '78 Frame (Keep 460/C6)
- This would be similar to option 1, but would keep the 460 Engine and C6 Tranny. Axles and Transfer Case would need to be swapped with a custom mount made for the front axle.

-The 2WD C6 tranny would have to be torn completely apart and have the output shaft changed to a 4WD version. Or if one were available a 4WD C6 tranny could be swapped in place of the 2WD version.


Are there any potential problems with these three options that I am leaving out?

Again, any feedback and ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks everybody for your feedback and replys.

Willys101 4lo & alaskan goodoleboy:
I, too, have thought that it would be much easier just to unbolt the two bodys and switch them out. Do either of you have any experience in swapping a body onto a different frame? I have heard this suggested else where, but people always reply that this 'sounds' a lot easier than it really would be.

From what I can tell (I haven't done specific measurements, but it's pretty obvious) the two frames are identical, minus the extra foot or two of the extended van frame. The Axle and Body mounts are in the same location on both frames. This would allow for the axles to be moved from the '87 Diesel 4x4 to the '78 Frame, or also move the Body from the '78 to the '87 Diesel Frame. So, really both of these appear to be viable options.

Option 2: '78 Body to '87 Frame
- Everything connected to both frames would have to be removed and unmounted. (Wiring, Engine parts mounted to frame/firewall, steering column?, what else?) Does anyone have any idea if all of the wiring for the brake lights, blinkers, etc. would match up without any problems? I am assuming they would, but you never know.

- Unbolting the bodys would be the easy part. Raising them high enough to clear the engine, etc. and pushing the wheels/frame out from underneath the body might be another story.
Would the '78 Body be strong enough to only be supported in 4 lifting points by a regular shop lift? Any concern that the body might twist or turn while in the air?

- Any concern to cut/shorten the extended frame?

- Wiring would still be needed, but I don't believe it would be as intense as option 1?

Yes, the 78 body will be plenty strong enough to lift by a regular shop lift. Just make sure you find solid points on the body to lift from. Along side the frame mounts is my favorite place.

Unbolting the body is relatively simple. You'll just have to unbolt every bolt you find tying the body to the frame. Do NOT forget the steering shaft. It will hold long enough to lift the frame part way off the ground or flip the body off the lift. Other big thing you have to disconnect is the fuel filler hoses.

Next you'll just disconnect all the ground wires you find, and then unplug all the wiring from the motor and transmission. On the '78 or the '87 there shouldn't be a whole lot of harness to disconnect from the engine or transmission and it should be relatively straight forward. The blinkers, headlights and all that wiring is ran in the body, so you will leave the harness intact with each body. IIRC, the wiring shouldn't be connected to the frame, aside from the grounds.

As far as the frame issues, depending on where the extra foot or two is will make a huge difference on how much work the frame chopping will be. If its an add on behind the rear suspension, you can just chop it off behind the rear suspension, and re-attach your rear most body mounts to your shortened frame. If the extra foot or two is in the wheelbase (between front & rear axles) you'll have to cut out however much of the frame you need to remove, and then re-weld the frame together. Fish plating the frame will strengthen the frame past original design if you do it right, and will not be an issue at all.

Personally, I see this option as being the easier option than transferring the diesel engine, transmission, transfer case and front suspension onto the gas powered van's frame. I would NOT use the 460 & C6, when a diesel is available and you've got access to a good turbo kit. You'll get a lot better fuel mileage and power out of a turbo'd diesel than you'll get out of the 460.

Thanks for the info. The extra foot or two IS behind the rear suspension, so that will make it much easier. Just chop off the extra length and then it will be good to go.

I think I am leaning towards this type of swap. I, too, really like the idea of the diesel with the turbo setup! :)

Thanks for the info. The extra foot or two IS behind the rear suspension, so that will make it much easier. Just chop off the extra length and then it will be good to go.

Hell yeah! Get to unbolting, Bucky, I wanna see the build thread.... :flipoff2::flipoff2::flipoff2:


Sounds like this is gunna bring the cool on the unique factor... I love it :grinpimp:

What about everything that is mounted inside the engine compartment?

I couldn't tell you exactly what is all there, but in the diesel there are a whole lot of parts that are mounted/attached to the front/back/sides of the engine compartment?

I guess each one would just have to be removed and then reattached after switching the bodies?

Even with this being the case, it still seems it would be easier/less time consuming to switch out the bodies.

Most of that should be attached on the body, and should lift off with the body. As far as transferring it from one body to the other, I would figure out what each part does, and figure out if I really have to have it. I'd bet that a lot of it is emissions crap that can be "misplaced" and the engine still run properly. :idea: The good thing about this is that you cut down on extraneous crap that you won't do anything except rob space.

Seriously though, start snapping some pictures, I wanna see this thing :grinpimp:

I like the 6.9L turbo diesel engine over a 1978 460(carb'd)/c6. The best way to boost your mileage is to have an OD tranny with a lock up torque converter. What tranny is behind the diesel now?

I think swapping bodies would be the easiest route if you have the equipment to do so.

ok...I thought about some of the same things...

I HAVE a factory 85 (its my build on rrorc)...I found a banks VAN kit..the truck kits are supposed to work..and just got my turbo back..did drive it a VERY short distance and have to say the 6.9 with the boost LEAKIN LIKE A SIVE was EVERY bit as powerfull as my old 460..cant wait to see what it does now with the turbo rebuilt and everything pressure tight!! gonna be a monster!!

my 7.5 got 11 on a GOOD DAY!!
my 6.9 without the turbo got 15-16 even towin..people say the turbos add 2-5mpg..

I wouldnt swap the motors...swap the bodys the frames ARE the same between the two..heck I think just the front grill is really diffrent.....both motors pretty much run stand-alone and dont have much more than key hot to run them..just need the glow plug controler off the driver side firewall/fender..and you dont need a light for the glowplug..just listen for it to CLICK off and turn the key..one battery runs the glow system..the other runs everything else..

feel free to check out www.oilburners.net for questions about the 6.9...those guys know stuff that even the DESIGNERS dont know!!

and you can contact me here or on rrorc.com or oilburners.net if ya have any questions or want me to take pix for ya of mine!!

This thread is old but I would like to clear up some info.

One battery does not control the Glow plugs. The batteries are in parallel.

You can put the Short van on the long frame and hack the extra frame off or build a platform to sit on or hold stuff (propane tank if you are camping)

For this project I would put the good body on the 4x4 frame. Perhaps build a platform on the extra frame. If you don't like it later you can cut it off and weld the bumper brackets to the frame.