First and foremost, my kudos goes out to the volunteers that gave their time to Bob Hazel and his retirement account. They seemed to be doing their best with what they had.

Secondly, Troy and his park played excellent hosts to the event. He has done a lot of work in the quarry and his offsite property; making it ready for competitors the likes of these guys. I should have pointed out the 3 dudes drinking Rolling Rocks about 10’ from you. I figured you would have seen them for sure.

My first experience with a Bob Hazel (sports in the rough) event came several months ago when my buddies at the Indiana Jeep Thing club were asked to provide trail leaders for the Superlift event. They ran the idea past me to see what I though of it. I told them my only concern would be insurance. e.g. What if one of my buddies was trail leading a group in which a child was hurt by a broken winch cable. Was Bob going to provide insurance for these trail leaders to keep them out of court when the child’s parents’ lawyer filed a shotgun lawsuit? As crazy as this sounds, that is a short summary of an actual scenario that happened here in the Midwest not long ago. The gentleman that was sued did not lose his court case, but he did have to incur several thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to keep himself out from under the judge’s gavel.

My buddies never did find out the details of their relationship with the event, but I’m willing to bet that they weren’t covered. Luckily nothing bad happened. But if something had happened, what do you think the chances are that Bob would have covered them out of his own pocket? I’m thinking slim to none. After all, he’s a businessman, not a humanitarian.

I digress …

When I first showed up at the Badlands Sunday morning, “officials” were just starting to set up the courses throughout the quarry … the day of the event! This was a prelude of things to come. The courses were never pre-run, nor were they set up “realistically.” Read Spaceghost’s post about a driver’s take on the course setups. He summarizes the bad points very well.

The gates were marked with 10” tall cones that were extremely difficult for the drivers, in their tall rigs, to see. More than one team was goose egged on a given course because the spotter was busy doing his thing and the driver couldn’t see a cone. I don’t know if they still do this or not, but in years past RCAA (then ARCA) used ~3’ tall sticks with flags on them that make much more sense. Let the driver use his or her own eyes. With the 10” tall cones, the spotter had to sight nearly every cone for the driver.

My biggest gripe, as a spectator, is thus:

ProRocks rules are set up in such a manner that a rig starts a series of obstacles with a given number of points (20 if I remember correctly). They are penalized points for things such as backing up, using rear steer (in the pro class), winching, etc. The catch with this is that it’s possible for a rig to use up all 20 of its points and be “done” with a series of obstacles. That in itself is a bit harsh.

But what is really harsh is that if a rig or a spotter touches any one of the dozen or so cones throughout an obstacle, they are done. Not penalized, but done! i.e. If you hit a cone, then you bust out the winch and get yourself out of the obstacles or take the shortest route out so the next competitor can start. The same applies regardless if a tire runs over a cone or if a spotter trips and falls and in the act of hitting the deck, his flailing limbs hit a cone … the rig is done with the series of obstacles.

Whomever in the ProRocks ranks suggested that rule is a fawking idiot! Let me say it in another way, “the ProRocks rules are fawking stupid.”

Even though there is a competition taking place, the fact of the matter is that it is a SHOW. Just like Saturday night stock car races, NASCAR, WWE, or the X-Games, they are all shows! Without spectators, there is nothing. Therefore, the event must cater to the spectators even more so than they do to the competitors.

The really easy thing about that is that the spectators don’t ask for much. All they want is to see a show. They/we/I come to see hardcore drivers push their hardcore rigs to the limit as many times as possible. And yet ProRocks’ rules as they stand leave nearly half of the competitors pulling off the courses halfway through.

Phunk that! I came to see Chris Durham, Ken Shupe, Bryan Hamilton, and all the other dudes drive that huge gnarly rock at the end of an obstacle, not to see them winch themselves out because they hit a damn cone. I could care less if they incur penalty points for hitting that cone. I just want to see them drive.

Ah, phunk it, are my words really gonna’ make a difference, probably not. But kudos to the promoters such as Big Rich and whoever is in charge at Erocc that get high praise for the show they put on for the fans. And a big fat, sloppy raspberry to dudes the likes of Bob Hazel. It’s not hard to figure out what organizations will survive and which will go “down in history” as phuck ups.

Now maybe there is some unforeseen, to me, reason why things are the way they are and if so, I look forward to reading Bob’s rebuttal. I won’t hold my breath waiting for it though.

cmk

I think I might have an uninterested 3rd party email Bob the links to these threads we have going. Maybe he'll have a good explanation :D

Yes, you make some good points, but how to you really feel?

Some clarifications:

CalROCS, RCAA, and Prorocks all use the same size cones. I don't know what erocc uses, but that's what all the other orgs use.

Prorocks is the only org that you are DQ'd for hitting a cone. Most others charge you a 10 point penalty. But to be fair, SITR has always been like this. Even when they were the ONLY rock crawling competition in existance.... I hate the rule, but it's the same for every competitor....

Every org that I am aware of will charge you with a cone penalty if the spotter or pull strap hits/kicks a cone.

I also know that every org that I've been to always, and I mean ALWAYS starts later than they post/say they will. I'm not exactly sure why, but they all do it.

I've been to every SITR event this year except for the Indiana event. I am guessing the other west coast guys didn't go for the same reason we didn't..... Too far for too little payout. We did go to Oklahoma, and I thought that was a fun, and decently organized event.

Just my .02

Originally posted by cmk


cmk
I've never seen cmk so serious. I mean no cm"blahblahblah"k.
C'mon.:flipoff2:

By the way, awesome pics!

I went to Hazel's first two events. Las Cruces in Nov. 1998 and Johnson Valley in Nov.1999. Both were not too well organized, but what the hell these were the first and third national events. ARCA's first was in 1999, September if I remember correctly. ARCA's first event was much better organized than Hazel's second. That's when I stopped going to Hazel's events. It was easy to forecast the future and that was Hazel's events were not going to survive - he has held on longer than I thought he would.

However, to his credit he did get the ball rolling with the 1998 Las Cruces event and it was a blast.

Originally posted by Lance
Some clarifications:

CalROCS, RCAA, and Prorocks all use the same size cones. I don't know what erocc uses, but that's what all the other orgs use.

I've been to every SITR event this year except for the Indiana event. I am guessing the other west coast guys didn't go for the same reason we didn't..... Too far for too little payout.

Okay, I wasn't aware that everyone uses the same hard to see cones ... so be it. I can imagine that it's a lot easier to rest a standard cone on a jagged, unlevel rock versus a 3' pole.

Bigger payouts ... now that's an interesting concept. After all, what kills competition faster than competitors that can't afford to compete? Once the competitors are gone, there is no longer a show for the fans and no advertising value for the sponsors.

Take care of the fans by putting on a good show. And take care of the competitors by comp'ing them FAIRLY. ... simple recipe for success.

cm "rockcrawling culinary artist" k

Originally posted by Lance
too little payout

What's the deal with that? I mean a $350 event fee and then only $750 for first? How does he expect driver's to feed their fat spotters on that kind of money :D?

Originally posted by bigdude


What's the deal with that? I mean a $350 event fee and then only $750 for first? How does he expect driver's to feed their fat spotters on that kind of money :D?

:laughing:
I think CalROCS has the highest payout of the smaller (non-RCAA) orgs. They payout 100%+ For our win @ Moon Rocks we won $2000 in prize money plus contingencies. My second place at Victorville was $1500. :cool2:

On the downside, they don't give any plaque/trophy. I like to have something for my wall, dammit!

Concerning the cone thing, a lot of people bitch about "rock racing" and I think the cone thing is to try to get around this. I could be wrong, but most people are probably more careful than usual when they know that if they hit a cone the are out of the obstacle. I like to watch the fast guys too, but not everyone can get their way, sorry. I went to the Disney event and one of my friends, Jason Larman, competed in the trophy class. I thought it was a very fun event and it really got me hooked on competition because the teams had to be TEAMS, not just a driver. Maybe my opinion is biased because I have only been to the one comp, but regardless, but it was a lot of fun. It had some unorganization, too, but I wasn't expecting for it to be some professional sport like nascar, i mean its only been around for a few years, and it has come a long way since then. I am sure it will continue to improve because of people like Bob Hazel who is trying to make more competitions and more events so there is competition between organisations. Just give it time and give postive feedback to people like Bob Hazel, not just complaining because it wasn't exactlly what YOU wanted it to be. That's the good thing about our sport right now, you can actually talk to the promoters and tell them what you think. That's all I got, didn't mean to offend any one.

Originally posted by Lance


I think CalROCS has the highest payout of the smaller (non-RCAA) orgs. They payout 100%+ For our win @ Moon Rocks we won $2000 in prize money plus contingencies. My second place at Victorville was $1500. :cool2:

On the downside, they don't give any plaque/trophy. I like to have something for my wall, dammit!

Rich is a good example for others to follow :eek: He should work on the plaque thing though, I like the ones we got yesterday :D

Originally posted by bigdude


What's the deal with that? I mean a $350 event fee and then only $750 for first? How does he expect driver's to feed their fat spotters on that kind of money :D?

ouch... a $350 fee ... the local comp here in Alabama a few weeks back paid $1000 to first and think it had a $100 or maybe $150 entry fee. not bad for a small/first event ...

- jack

Originally posted by bigdude
What's the deal with that? I mean a $350 event fee and then only $750 for first? How does he expect driver's to feed their fat spotters on that kind of money :D?

That's all you guys got from ProRocks for a first place finish?! Holy schnikes! That is complete bull ... yeah. That just reaffirms my comment about contributing to Bob Hazel's retirement account.

Heck, the race car team gets more than that from a saturday night special for finishing tenth!

cm "amazed and yet pissed" k

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
That's the good thing about our sport right now, you can actually talk to the promoters and tell them what you think.

Don't fall outta your chair, but I can talk to rocks too.................

Thanks Tim, Darryl, Chad, Jerry and the Trailkeepers for proving AGGIE_04 to be right! I'll assume Rich and Craig fall into this group as well as other I am NOT familiar with.

BTW, did I mention this wasn't my first SITR event, competition or trail ride.

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
I am sure it will continue to improve because of people like Bob Hazel who is trying to make more competitions and more events so there is competition between organisations. Just give it time and give postive feedback to people like Bob Hazel, not just complaining because it wasn't exactlly what YOU wanted it to be.

: poking aggie_04's brain : Is this thing on?

Camo said it in another post. The word is out on Bob Hazel. This weekend's "phunktivities" were nothing unexpected. He botched the show for the spectators and then he insulted the competitors by paying out $750 for a first place finish AND charging them a $350 entrance fee. He's not helping the sport, he's killing his small piece of the action. Just because he came first doesn't mean he's the best.

And in regards to what *I* wanted, read all the posts that are popping up today. My comments are no different than MANY others' regardless if they're coming from other spectators that were there or competitors.

The mere fact that Bob has been quoted as saying he likes to do things differently is a testament to his over inflated ego.

cmk

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
Maybe my opinion is biased because I have only been to the one comp

Yep, you don't know sh!t, sorry. Go to a real comp and you'll see how it's lacking in just about every aspect. I posted a comparison of Pro Rock to ERoCC in another thread. I suggest you read it if you're interested in how others put on a much better show. You have a lot to learn before you go supporting someone like Hazel, you should keep that to yourself.

By the way, this comp wasn't what any competitor wanted it to be. Quite a few swore that unless he ups the prize money to something rediculous (thousands guaranteed) they will never return to one of his events (big names and myself included). It's not worth it for many to compete on a stupidly designed course for a total of $400 profit if you win (not including any contigencies).

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
Maybe my opinion is biased because I have only been to the one comp, .................... but it was a lot of fun. It had some unorganization, too, but I wasn't expecting for it to be some professional sport like nascar, i mean its only been around for a few years, and it has come a long way since then. I am sure it will continue to improve because of people like Bob Hazel who is trying to make more competitions and more events so there is competition between organisations. Just give it time and give postive feedback to people like Bob Hazel, not just complaining because it wasn't exactlly what YOU wanted it to be. That's the good thing about our sport right now, you can actually talk to the promoters and tell them what you think. That's all I got, didn't mean to offend any one.

Yeah, you need to go to some RCAA or CalRocs events before you pipe up about giving Hazel a chance. People have been giving him a chance since 1998. :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

By the way '76 - probably been wheeling longer that you've been around.

Originally posted by bigdude


Rich is a good example for others to follow :eek: He should work on the plaque thing though, I like the ones we got yesterday :D

I like these ones

Originally posted by Lance


I like these ones

I retract my previous statement and admit to being extremely jealous :D

Originally posted by Lance

I also know that every org that I've been to always, and I mean ALWAYS starts later than they post/say they will. I'm not exactly sure why, but they all do it.


'round here we call that "Racer Time".. it means if Registration ends at 10 and racing starts at noon.. you can usually still register at noon and maybe we'll get started at 1. :D

I didn't mean any offense whatsoever to you cmk, I was just saying that a lot of people want different things, and they can't have all of them at once. I know there have been some posts on here about people not liking "rock racing" and people not liking this and that, but not everyone can have what they want, someone has to draw a line somewhere. I was not aware of the crappy payoff for winning the comp, I have to admit that is pretty harsh. With all the sponsers prorocks has, they ought to be able to pay a lot more than that. But there are some people who aren't there to win, they just want to have a good time, and it might be worth your money then. I personally do not have that kind of money to spend, but some people do and some people spend more money than that on trips to Vegas and such. Just my opinion.

This reply works just as well here as in the other thread....

SITR doesn't even TRY to get spectators there -- generally, there's no gate, no cover, nothing. Looks to me like he's purposefully trying to avoid spectators. They are liability risks, certainly, perhaps with more total exposure than potential profit. SITR may do other things differently than other organizations, but geeze, why beat 'em up for not doing something that they're not even trying to do?

I can see complaining about the driver rules, payout, etc... but spectators? Did you pay an admission fee? No? Then I guess you got more than your money's worth. :rolleyes:

If you want to go to an event set up for spectators, don't go to SITR events -- Bob has a long history of setting up the events for competitors, media, and sponsors... NOT spectators.

Randii

Originally posted by bigdude
By the way, this comp wasn't what any competitor wanted it to be. Quite few swore that unless he ups the prize money to something rediculous (thousands guaranteed) they will never return to one of his events (big names and myself included).

Damn straight, because they can't afford to. Hell, I'll bet it cost Barbie's Boyfriend nearly $750 just to fly you out there for the weekend, put you up in a hotel, feed you, and pay for your weekend's dosage of creatine. Never mind the cost of building a competition buggy, getting the buggy to IN, maintaining it, etc.

Hell, if he has to pay full retail, Chris is gonna' have to shell out about $450 for a new hood. His 2nd place finish probably won't even cover that.

cm "I call shennanigans" k

Originally posted by randii
Did you pay an admission fee? No? Then I guess you got more than your money's worth. :rolleyes:

Yep they did pay a fee to watch. Shit they tried to charge me because I didn't arrive in the same vehicle as the guy I was spotting for.

Originally posted by randii
This reply works just as well here as in the other thread....

SITR doesn't even TRY to get spectators there --

Hey Randy, I believe he is charging for spectators now.

I am in no way supporting Bob Hazel except that I have to give him credit for making events, no matter how bad they are. I do not have the time or the money to travel to Cali to watch events eventhough I would like to, but disney was realtively close to me and prorocks had an event there. And yes nobody20, you probably haev been wheeling longer than I have been around, does that mean I can't have a say in things? I try to help everyone on this board as much as I can, I think I am entitled to an opinion.

Originally posted by randii
This reply works just as well here as in the other thread....

If you want to go to an event set up for spectators, don't go to SITR events -- Bob has a long history of setting up the events for competitors, media, and sponsors... NOT spectators.

Randii

Sponsors maybe, I disagree with the balance of that statement. You didn't mention his retirement fund as a benificiary of the events. Speaking of sponsors, BFG Rocks, hoping to see them at Erocc soon! I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a tabulation of the tires found on the Erocc spectators vehicles, non automobiles that is! They did park over 500 cars in a single gated lot at the last event. (See Tim, I am full of ideas.)

Yes there was a spectator fee, $10.

I ran into the same problem at a local show and I think Hazel was still head of it at that time. I hit a gate and immediately was disquallified. The crowd was pissed!! That is a dumb rule! I can see getting points for it, but not disqualifacation!

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
But there are some people who aren't there to win, they just want to have a good time, and it might be worth your money then.

FYI, most people who travel to events are there to win. If they wanted to have a good time they could set up cones any other weekend and do that.

I wouldn't have flown 1100 miles for fun, shupee wouldn't have towed 800 miles for fun, team Mello wouldn't have travelled from CA for fun. The guy who lives 100 miles away and has $350 to blow might do it for fun. However, he's not the guy who's on here comparing the series, because he doesn't know any better, just like you.


You have a lot to learn having only SPECTATED at one Hazel event, you should zip it.

Originally posted by bigdude

The guy who lives 100 miles away and has $350 to blow might do it for fun. However, he's not the guy who's on here comparing the series, because he doesn't know any better, just like you.



That describes the really nice guys that rolled their stock caged jeep into the tree on Purgatory and bent it up. Pics are elsewhere.

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
I am in no way supporting Bob Hazel except that I have to give him credit for making events, no matter how bad they are.

So you are saying you'd go to an AC/DC concert if they only played the first two chords from all of their songs?

You'd go to a rodeo if all they did was let the bulls and the calves run around in the arena, and all the cowboy's just sat and watched?

You'd attend a baseball game where all the players were allowed to hit the ball, but weren't allowed to run to first base?

That's basically what happened... I watched several good competitors pull into the course, hit the first cone, and then back out and move on... never even given the chance to show other competitors and judges (and a few spectators) what they could really do with a rig.

If you support welfare, all you do is encourage more and more people to not go to work... if you support bad events, all you do is breed more and more bad events.

Yep they did pay a fee to watch. Shit they tried to charge me because I didn't arrive in the same vehicle as the guy I was spotting for.
Then I retract my comments entirely -- I could handle SITR events as long as I assumed they weren't charging for spectators (which is the way they handled this for years). Since they ARE charging gate now, they need to give a whole lot better bang for the buck.

When he first started doing these events, Bob had no competition -- now, he's gonna have to react to all the various events -- ARCA/RCAA, NWRCC, UROC, NEUROC, EROCC, CalROCS and many more... my alphabet is dizzy!

Randii

Originally posted by bigdude

You have a lot to learn having only SPECTATED at one Hazel event, you should zip it.
I would have to say that this being my first event:

1. The courses seemed extremely hard. There were numerous vehicles that didnt even make it through the 3rd gate. In the quarry stage 3's C gate (I think?) was nearly impossible without rear stear. Not one legend made it through.

2. The cone toughing sucked! Man that ruined a couple awesome runs.

Also I would like to say thanks for all the guys making the long hall out to IN to show everyoe some great buggies.

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
Speaking of sponsors, BFG Rocks, hoping to see them at Erocc soon!

My hope is that they decide to pick up a major series in the next few years to rival the main named series in our sport, I highly doubt it will be Pro Rock :D


I'll tell you Frank was a cool dude. He was killing me with how much smack he was talking about "other tires" :D My favorite quote was along the lines of "It's eating them up that we come into their series and the top guys are running our tires :D"

If I wanted to see the type of dude that lives 100 miles away and has $350 to burn, I would simply call him up and say "let's go wheeling" because "those guys" are my friends. I can go wheeling with guys like that whenever I want.

I spent 10 hours on the road to see guys the likes of Durham & Shupe mix it up. The thought of seeing BigDude gettin' "tee bagged" by a cross dressin' stripper saturday night certainly had its "attraction" as well. :flipoff2:

cm "came home with a fistful of singles" k

as a competior i want spectatiors to be watching my events. otherwise i might think i was just in the special olyimpics

Originally posted by camo
as a competior i want spectatiors to be watching my events. otherwise i might think i was just in the special olyimpics

As a spectator, I'd like to see camo complete one obstacle without breaking. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by camo
as a competior i want spectatiors to be watching my events. otherwise i might think i was just in the special olyimpics

Bawahahahahaha :laughing: Very true.

Originally posted by Lance


I like these ones

Show off....LOL j/k you guys deserve it!

Originally posted by Lance


As a spectator, I'd like to see camo complete one obstacle without breaking. :flipoff2:

OUCH!!!! HAHAHA

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
But there are some people who aren't there to win, they just want to have a good time, and it might be worth your money then. I personally do not have that kind of money to spend, but some people do .................Just my opinion.

So there was a SMALL closed course rock crawling event in Meridian, TX this past weekend. Probably less than 100 miles from you. Did you attend? It was both cheap and close and everybody there seemed to be having a really good time. Admission to the National BBQ Championship, Rockcrawling, and Car Show was only $5 and there was lots of free BBQ to eat. All those of us who competed had a good time and there were trophies, and other donated prizes and it was only $20 to compete. I got $60.00 of free Hooter's certificates, 50 lb bag of dog food, about $20 of fireworks and a T-shirt for competing - not bad for a $20 entrance fee.

Originally posted by Lance


As a spectator, I'd like to see camo complete one obstacle without breaking. :flipoff2:

Ouch! I made it that far at the last ERoCC :D The second obstacle? :nuke:

nobody20, i didn't hear about that comp in meridian, where in Texas is that? I would have liked to have gone, but I didn't hear anything about it and I am in the Corps of Cadets here at A&M and we had drill last weekend. I would really like to know where it was at though and if they are going to do it again. Thanks. :D

Originally posted by bigdude


My hope is that they decide to pick up a major series in the next few years to rival the main named series in our sport, I highly doubt it will be Pro Rock :D



BFG is already pretty heavily invlolved with UROC. They have a killer contingency program with screamin' deals on tires, their mobile shop is at every event(and has saved our ass at every event), and they did all the scoring at Vernal, including real time scoring throughout the weekend(which, granted, wasn't really all that helpful). If you sign up on thier contingency program, you basically have a 5 man pit crew and shop at your disposal right on site at the event. In Cedar we hit the trailer 3 or 4 times to reseat beads(yeah, no beadlocks), and once for a new tire(which they wouldn't replace for free:(). In Vernal we put the fan through the radiator and they supplied us with about $20 worth of stuff to get that fixed. They've really been top notch to work with.

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
Where in Texas is that? I would have liked to have gone, but I didn't hear anything about it and I am in the Corps of Cadets here at A&M and we had drill last weekend. I would really like to know where it was at though and if they are going to do it again. Thanks. :D

It's about 30 miles northwest of Waco.

Yes, this was the second annual and they are planning to do it again next year. Gary Howard of Howard's Transmission in Meridian puts it on with the Bosque Valley 4 Wheelers.

Is Meridian an everyday place to wheel or was it just that weekend? It would be nice to find a few more places in Texas to wheel. Have you been to Katemcy? I hear its really good and i might be making a trip out there around September 10 if we get the weekend off.

Originally posted by cmk
Even though there is a competition taking place, the fact of the matter is that it is a SHOW. Just like Saturday night stock car races, NASCAR, WWE, or the X-Games, they are all shows! Without spectators, there is nothing. Therefore, the event must cater to the spectators even more so than they do to the competitors.

Even before I read the comments on the prize money, my comment to this was that Hazel has never tailored his events to spectators & the REASON he has gotten away with it is he's turning in a nice fat profit just off the COMPETITORS/Participants (since not all of his events are "real" competitions).

This past weekend, we paid out $9,000 in prize money to the top 3 classes at my mud race. I collected less than $1,800 in entry fees for those classes. And we don't have Superlift paying for the priviledge of putting up banners. I have yet to make any serious connections in the "industry" willing to back us & yet here we are paying out 100% in most classes, and 100%+ in the others. Anything less is a slap in the face to the competitors.



TEX

Originally posted by randii
SITR doesn't even TRY to get spectators there -- generally, there's no gate, no cover, nothing.

I paid $20 to spectate at "Mudstock". Not only the most worthless 4wd event I've ever attended (and I've been to some crappy ones), but also the most expensive.



TEX

Originally posted by bigdude
I'll tell you Frank was a cool dude. He was killing me with how much smack he was talking about "other tires" :D My favorite quote was along the lines of "It's eating them up that we come into their series and the top guys are running our tires :D"

Give me his number. I'd like to talk some smack about how worthless their tires are in OUR competitions ;) I had them all lined up to back mudracing a couple years ago until they found out that nobody in the upper classes ran their tires - and damn near nobody in the lower classes. Well duh! Make one that works & they'll all run it. I did say that BFG was a very popular tire for our tow vehicles :p


TEX

Originally posted by AGGIE_04
Is Meridian an everyday place to wheel or was it just that weekend? It would be nice to find a few more places in Texas to wheel. Have you been to Katemcy? I hear its really good and i might be making a trip out there around September 10 if we get the weekend off.

Meridian, as far as I know is not everyday place to wheel. The comp was a closed course on the grounds on the BBQ championship.

Haven't been to Katemcy yet - but all the San Antonio 4x4 clubs are going on Sept 7 & 8 - should be a really big turnout.

bob hazel's non-comp events are not much better. he did the pocono trailfest last year at paragon and it was a complete mess. had last years shirts for all the people, bad food, not enough trail guides, ect.

dave

i might think i was just in the special olyimpics

Fawkin' hell! In terms of spelling and punctuation you are, mate :flipoff2:

Did someobody say a comp. that gives away 50lb of dog chow as a prize?....now that's my kind of competition. Bottle of Jack fer me, and a 50lb bag for the pooch..that's be cool prizes :)

$10 per person to watch and $350 to enter? WTF Either one or the other, but not both. A top ten finisher in any of the other national events should get paid to show up.

Originally posted by davefj40
bob hazel's non-comp events are not much better. he did the pocono trailfest last year at paragon and it was a complete mess. had last years shirts for all the people, bad food, not enough trail guides, ect.

dave

I was just about to say the exact thing !!!

BURNT SPAGATTI ! and last years t-shirts and the only thing his guys could say was "tough"....

I'll not pad his retirement anymore, i could care less if its to watch a comp. or not.

"Say no to bob...."

The worst part was it was my dads first trip out wheeling with me, he drove 4 hours to from NY to meet me there and was like "you paid how much for this? and drove from 7 hours from NC for this?"

-yag

I have competed in 3 Pro-Rock events, and should say that the third(Oklahoma) was my last. This is just my opinion, but here it goes. We drove from TX to Johnson Valley, experience there was very fun and I thought that event was OK (good food). Then there was Farmington, awesome place, but seemed to be kinda falling apart, then Disney,OK. Total shit!! For paying $350 for an entry fee, and having only 23 competitors in a class, damn u ought to get something. The food sucked, and like Farmington, they didnt have enough Plaques for drivers and spotters. And dont get me wrong, Its not about getting stuff, but Damn $350 entry fee, and Jason gets like what $7-800 for first?? And people like Lance and the teams from CA, or wherever, come that far, and place in the top 10, and you dont even get enough gas money to drive home WTF. Anyway, Bob Hazel is definetly not getting any more $$ from us or at least from me..

Come awn now lance, you know my budget or lack there of, but I'm working on the trophy/plaque thing.

Rich

I was thinking the same thing Rich. Those pretty glass etched trophies would be nice... wish we could afford them. On the other hand, we got some plaques being made up for our series champion and such, but it won't be anything like that (on our budget). Maybe next year. :)

Originally posted by jeepinchad
Maybe next year. :)

Speaking of which.... I was talking with Buddy and the other guys and the discussion of next season came up. There are quite a few competitors who want you guys to try and expand. Possibly an event or two in a different location and a series consisting of 6 events taking your top 4 scores. Perhaps starting earlier in the year, further south in the US for an event.

Originally posted by randii
If you want to go to an event set up for spectators, don't go to SITR events -- Bob has a long history of setting up the events for competitors, media, and sponsors... NOT spectators.

Randii

Im not highley in the loop on this guy, but this in itself makes him an idiot. That is at least 50% of the sport if not more! Why not have baseball games at randome locations with no spectators and just brief us on the 6:00 news? Chicago won today. Atlanta won tonight. Thats all for baseball.

Because that would suck. Sports would just be exercise if it wasent for the fans.

Originally posted by bigdude


Speaking of which.... I was talking with Buddy and the other guys and the discussion of next season came up. There are quite a few competitors who want you guys to try and expand. Possibly an event or two in a different location and a series consisting of 6 events taking your top 4 scores. Perhaps starting earlier in the year, further south in the US for an event.

hmmmm... ;)

Originally posted by bigdude


Speaking of which.... I was talking with Buddy and the other guys and the discussion of next season came up. There are quite a few competitors who want you guys to try and expand. Possibly an event or two in a different location and a series consisting of 6 events taking your top 4 scores. Perhaps starting earlier in the year, further south in the US for an event.

Wow, another original idea surfaces, hehehehehehehehe

Got Pink?

Originally posted by bigdude


Speaking of which.... I was talking with Buddy and the other guys and the discussion of next season came up. There are quite a few competitors who want you guys to try and expand. Possibly an event or two in a different location and a series consisting of 6 events taking your top 4 scores. Perhaps starting earlier in the year, further south in the US for an event.


Hmm something closer then 10 hours away would be nice :D
but then I hope to be living in TN sometime next year....

Hey can you schedule them around the dam weddings I have to go to next year too?? j/k ;)

Originally posted by SpaceGhost
Got Pink?

Got a lazy spotter :eek: :flipoff2: (j/k)

Originally posted by Bigburlynakedguy
A top ten finisher in any of the other national events should get paid to show up.


Whoa now, let's not take this too far. $350 to enter & $750 to win, well that SUCKS. We can all agree on that. But, the idea of paying guys just to come? FAWK THAT! Now you're no longer holding a competition, you're holding an exhibition. And that can't do anything to advance the sport.

And as much as it sucks not to win enough gas money to go home to CA from the Midwest, you can't beef up the purse to the point that everyone is gonna come out ahead financially. When I put on a mud race in the St. Louis area, I know folks from IN & MI are going to come 4-600 miles to run with me. And if they win, they'll come out ahead. I also know that these same folks might not come 6-800 miles to run with me in Kansas City. The fact is, there comes a point when it's just too far to go. And the promoters can only fatten the purse up SO much before it becomes unprofitable for them. Now, I'm not suggesting that Bob has even approached that level. But, when you start guaranteeing money to guys who haven't even negotiated the first gate yet, that's a bit over the top. The purse needs to be fair. But, make the competitors earn it at YOUR comp, don't give it to them based on what they've done previously.


TEX

Originally posted by TEX
Whoa now, let's not take this too far. $350 to enter & $750 to win, well that SUCKS. We can all agree on that. But, the idea of paying guys just to come? FAWK THAT! Now you're no longer holding a competition, you're holding an exhibition. And that can't do anything to advance the sport.

Is it really a competition? Sure there is a points system, trophies, and prizes for placing well.

But take away the spectators and what do you have? You have no reason for the big name sponsors to come out. After all, they sponsor the events because it's part of their advertising program. They're not there because they like the spectators. They're there to get their name in front of as many people as possible in the hopes of selling more of their product. This is business.

So if you lose the spectators, it's safe to say you'll also lose the big name sponsors.

Without the influx of capital brought in by the spectators and the sponsors, what are you left with? Not a helluva lot.

The fact of the matter is, the events are far more of a show than they are a competition. The spectators/fans are what drive the sport creating the advertising niche for the sponsors. And the big name sponsors are what bring in the dinero for the competitors as well as for the promoters to put on the show.

Care to rethink that exhibition thing?

cmk

why was the prize money so low at the bad lands? it was 3500 to win [at disney]+ the extras that could be picked up from sponser programs. i would have been pissed if that was all that was offered for that kind of entry money. mike

Not much will piss me off quicker than to show up at a competition and find out the promotor has brought in some of "his own" trucks, that don't pay entry, that get paid to show up, and still compete against me for the prize money.

Yeah, I stand a chance. :flipoff:

And then they don't pay back hardly anything anyhow - expecting me to break my junk putting on a show for the spectators to get back not even 2x my entry fee.. and putting me against "professionals" they've brought with 'em..

Fawk that.

Originally posted by cmk


Is it really a competition? Sure there is a points system, trophies, and prizes for placing well.

But take away the spectators and what do you have? You have no reason for the big name sponsors to come out. After all, they sponsor the events because it's part of their advertising program. They're not there because they like the spectators. They're there to get their name in front of as many people as possible in the hopes of selling more of their product. This is business.

So if you lose the spectators, it's safe to say you'll also lose the big name sponsors.


Well first of all, I'm actually on your side when it comes to the spectators. My competitions are designed for spectator enjoyment & virtually ALL of our revenue comes from spectator admissions. In fact, I'm a little surprised we haven't been able to get more backing from sponsors given how sponsor-friendly our competitions are. Doesn't get much better than being able to put a giant banner in an enclosed arena full of fans. Back to the point, I'm with you on this one.

Without the influx of capital brought in by the spectators and the sponsors, what are you left with? Not a helluva lot.

Again, we're on the same page here. Without spectators, it's just a very hardcore trail ride. Or in my case, just a really fun mud bash.

The fact of the matter is, the events are far more of a show than they are a competition. The spectators/fans are what drive the sport creating the advertising niche for the sponsors. And the big name sponsors are what bring in the dinero for the competitors as well as for the promoters to put on the show.

Care to rethink that exhibition thing?

cmk

No, I really don't care to rethink it. Yes, it's a show as well as a comp. Absolutely! But, if you lose that competitive edge, the "show" suffers. And how long are the fans (aka spectators) going to tolerate that? You can cater to the casual spectator with exhibitions, but the hardcore fanatic will be laughing at you eventually. (exhibit A: Pace Motor Sports - aka SFX - aka Clear Channel). It's my belief that taking the competition seriously is what MAKES a good "show". And in any serious competition, you don't get paid to show up. You get paid to WIN.


TEX

Originally posted by TEX


It's my belief that taking the competition seriously is what MAKES a good "show". And in any serious competition, you don't get paid to show up. You get paid to WIN.

TEX

What might work is to waive entry fees for the top 5 finishers at the previous event - within the series - just to make it more appealing for them to show.
And/or work it out so that if you're in the top, say, 5 but don't win the big-money, you get your entry fee back, anyhow.

Then again, maybe it's already setup that way. :)

Originally posted by gunracer1
why was the prize money so low at the bad lands? it was 3500 to win [at disney]+ the extras that could be picked up from sponser programs. i would have been pissed if that was all that was offered for that kind of entry money. mike

Contigencies aside, Shupee and I went there for other reasons than to support Hazel. I wanted to see the BFG semi and meet Frank and shupee wanted two nights alone with me in a hotel room :flipoff2:

How many rigs were in Disney?

Originally posted by bigdude


shupee had his way with me for two nights alone in a hotel room :flipoff2:



Oh, now you've done it :D

Originally posted by bigdude


I wanted to see the BFG semi and meet Frank and shupee wanted two nights alone with me in a hotel room :flipoff2:



Put the bottle down and back away slowly!

Originally posted by TEX
No, I really don't care to rethink it. Yes, it's a show as well as a comp. Absolutely! But, if you lose that competitive edge, the "show" suffers. And how long are the fans (aka spectators) going to tolerate that? You can cater to the casual spectator with exhibitions, but the hardcore fanatic will be laughing at you eventually. (exhibit A: Pace Motor Sports - aka SFX - aka Clear Channel). It's my belief that taking the competition seriously is what MAKES a good "show". And in any serious competition, you don't get paid to show up. You get paid to WIN.

Thanks for replying TEX, honestly. I admit I "poked" you on purpose because I like to hear more from the promoter's side of things. My experience has only been from the competitor's and spectator's side of things.

cmk

Originally posted by cmk


Thanks for replying TEX, honestly. I admit I "poked" you on purpose because I like to hear more from the promoter's side of things. My experience has only been from the competitor's and spectator's side of things.

cmk

Honestly though, I think it's the fact that I've been all three that has shaped my attitude. I started watching mud races in 1980, but didn't compete until '88, didn't start ram-rodding events until '92, and didn't serve AS the sanctioning body until '99. I've probably got more experience from a competitor's point of view than anything though, but working on that "other" angle ;) I think where we're running into problems is with guys who have ONLY been a promoter. Sometimes they figure out what the spectators need, sometimes not. But, they rarely keep the competitors happy for very long. And that's never a good thing. Our crowd as lighter than we'd hoped for this past weekend, but when it was all said & done, I had competitors who placed outside the money Friday AND Saturday come up & shake my hand, tell me how much they enjoyed the race, and that they'd be back to the next one. And if I can do that & entertain the spectators at the same time, then I'm feelin' pretty good :)


TEX

But take away the spectators and what do you have? You have no reason for the big name sponsors to come out.
This seems obvious -- and it may be the current reality -- but this is a recent reality. Hazel and SITR held non-spectator events for YEARS and made good money from sponsors with JUST media coverage (no spectators, no gate). Warn, Superlift, Goodyear? Hazel had deals with these companies before there were spectators.

Without the influx of capital brought in by the spectators and the sponsors, what are you left with? Not a helluva lot.
Agreed that this is the current paradigm -- but keep in mind that those aren't necessarily directly related, especially when you factor in media.

Bob Hazel, like him or not (and I think he's a decent bloke), is established. All the other shows have been playing catch-up. ARCA/RCAA (IMHO) now is THE show, but UROC/CalROCs is coming on strong.

There's definitely a change in the industry in process... drivers are organizing amidst themselves, promoters are getting together... and spectators (and the gate revenue that they promise) are becoming increasingly important.

The events are a blast to watch/cover, but the politics and positioning on rules, relationships, etc... that's pretty wild to watch, too. Who knows where it will go?

Randii

Originally posted by randii
[B]
Bob Hazel, like him or not (and I think he's a decent bloke), is [I]established[/I

Randii

Is that political correctness?

Originally posted by randii
Hazel and SITR held non-spectator events for YEARS and made good money from sponsors with JUST media coverage (no spectators, no gate). Warn, Superlift, Goodyear? Hazel had deals with these companies before there were spectators.


Actually, I'd go so far as to say Hazel was using those sponsors to cover costs & his PROFIT was from participants. People tolerated that for recreational trail rides & such. But, he's still profiting from the participants today. And competition folks will only tolerate that for so long. It's a principle thing. They feel they are providing the entertainment - rightly so. So, to expect any income from those folks is just not gonna fly.


TEX

I'll tell you right now I see a driver's union of the more established names in the sport. Maybe it won't be an official "UNION" but they will make decisions as a group to make sure they aren't getting screwed.

I mean bringing out a $50,000 rig to an event with the possibility of destroying it, winning the event, and getting a $750 check, that's BULLSHIT!. Get 10 big names in the sport to say "We're not coming unless the winner get's $3K" and the promoters will start putting up.

Originally posted by cmk
My experience has only been from the competitor's and spectator's side of things.

cmk, are you competing on foot now or in that convertible?? hell, if I'd known all I needed was a pair of Sketchers, I'd have competed too! :flipoff2:

Seriously tho, a drivers organization would be a excellent idea...doesn't ERoCC have something like that already? I know all the local mud drag competitors and such have meetings to discuss rules and changes, and the drivers play a huge part in that.

Is that political correctness?
Nah. I'm making a personal distinction between business and personal stuff. I know plenty of people that I don't want to do business with, but I want to be friends with -- and vice versa. Connecting the two seems somewhat rare, especially in the publications business.

If you bump into Bob personally, he's a decent guy. I'm not sure it is possible to carry that persona over to business, especially when you have to be the buck-stops-here guy for rules, sponsors, etc.

Randii

Originally posted by bigdude
I mean bringing out a $50,000 rig to an event with the possibility of destroying it, winning the event, and getting a $750 check, that's BULLSHIT!.

Again, I'm not gonna go so far as to agree with that. I've had $50,000 machines take less than that for winning at my events. If they want to spend that much to make so little, that's their choice. HOWEVER, I'm not charging $350 to enter my events either. So, it's all in perspective. What's BS is not the $750 1st place. It's the $750 1st place combined with the $350 entry fee. Most I've EVER paid was $1,200 to win. But, the entry fee was only $40.

TEX

Originally posted by randii
...snip...
The events are a blast to watch/cover, but the politics and positioning on rules, relationships, etc... that's pretty wild to watch, too.
...snip...

Randii

Amen Brotha! Wild indeed!

1st place in disney was only 1000 bucks i saw the check..when jason won, so pro rock has always sucked

Doesn't get much better than being able to put a giant banner in an enclosed arena full of fans.
Ah, Tex, I disagree.

If I'm a vendor and I have the choice of getting in a publication in front of hundreds of thousands of folks, vs. in an arena in front of tens? of thousands of folks, I'd choose the former ... especially when you factor in:
(print) top-of-the-toilet-tank factor
(web) surf-while-the-boss-ain't-looking
...where the article is going to keep getting browsed over the indefinite future.

FWIW, I want BOTH. I'll take publication AND put my banner in front of the masses.... better still is my stickers and banners show up in other publications. :cool:
http://www.outdoorwire.com/gallery/trailshots/4x4_Trailshots/Competitions/Goodyear_Extreme_Rock_Crawling_Championships_ARCA/Cedar_City_UT_May_00/Course_A_Stage_7/7B_DonB8.jpg

Tex, FWIW, I agree with your way of promoting events -- if you're making the spectators and competitors happy, and covering your costs, IMHO, you're doing it right. The biggest thing holding you back IMHO is location. The print mags are all about the West, and the 'net 'zines are better distributed, but generally poorly funded. Travel budgets are laughable :( and your events are hard to get to...

Randii

Originally posted by woody


cmk, are you competing on foot now or in that convertible?? hell, if I'd known all I needed was a pair of Sketchers, I'd have competed too! :flipoff2:

Seriously tho, a drivers organization would be a excellent idea...doesn't ERoCC have something like that already? I know all the local mud drag competitors and such have meetings to discuss rules and changes, and the drivers play a huge part in that.

ERoCC is a non-profit organization - all of the organizers are either elected officers of the organization or appointed volunteers of elected officers. All of the drivers and spotters are members, so they vote to elect the officers who they feel will best represent them and run the events as they should be run. So, yes the competitors are represented, but so are the volunteers because they are members also and they vote just like the competitors. Everyone is involved.

well when i signed up it was 3500 to win and another 1500 from bfg [contingency money for bfg tires]. i would have been mad as hell to find something out like that later in the comp. it seems bob is digging himself a big ass hole. mike

So do most of these series(Erocc, Prorocks, etc.) make known before the comp, or even at the awards ceremeony, how much money is up for grabs? I know at Cedar City UROC they announced how much cash was being paid out for each place at the awards ceremony, and then in Vernal they didn't even mention anything about the money. It'd be nice to know what was being paid out, and I think it would draw more people to compete. It would also be nice if they paid down through 5 or 6 places, at least something. I see that RCAA does, UROC hasn't in the past, and I don't know about everybody else.

Originally posted by randii
Ah, Tex, I disagree.

If I'm a vendor and I have the choice of getting in a publication in front of hundreds of thousands of folks, vs. in an arena in front of tens? of thousands of folks, I'd choose the former

True enough. I was meaning more in terms of a banner in front of 200 people hanging from rocks & trees vs. one that's in a stadium. But you're right, IN THE MAG is better yet. That's why I get irritated when I go to a POS event & all the mags are there covering it when I know that better events are lacking major corporate backing simply because they can't get the mags there. And it's really kind of an insider's deal IMO. I mean, if I'm the guys running Superlift, I'd make sure the mags were at events I sponsored. Want me to keep putting ads in your mag? Come out & take pics at this event I'm sponsoring.

The biggest thing holding you back IMHO is location. The print mags are all about the West, and the 'net 'zines are better distributed, but generally poorly funded. Travel budgets are laughable :( and your events are hard to get to...

Randii

Agreed. Although, it's not just location for me, but the fact that the kind of events I put on are not being done out West where the mags are located. They just don't take us seriously, because they honestly don't think it's a major segment of the 4wd community. But, they are willing to travel to this part of the country for other events that are more in line with the kind of wheeling that takes place out West - or those that have major corporate backing, and therefore a financial stake in the magazine's situation. But, should Goodyear & BFG ever decide to go into a tire war for domination in the MUD, we'd get all the publicity we wanted ;)


TEX

Originally posted by woody


Seriously tho, a drivers organization would be a excellent idea...doesn't ERoCC have something like that already? I know all the local mud drag competitors and such have meetings to discuss rules and changes, and the drivers play a huge part in that.

A year ago a Monster Truck promoter came to town and we went out n' played in the Tuff Truck and mud-drags.. and had such a lousy time, we agreed not to come back.

I'd planned on making my point this year - bringing a dozen or so State Racers (paid race numbers/members of the Montana 4x4 Association) down to the Fairgrounds, on the trailers, and just park 'em there and let the promoter know that if he doesn't treat us better, we won't run - and then LEAVE.

Unfortunately, we had a race somewhere else that weekend instead. :D

Originally posted by tsm1mt


A year ago a Monster Truck promoter came to town and we went out n' played in the Tuff Truck and mud-drags.. and had such a lousy time, we agreed not to come back.

I'd planned on making my point this year - bringing a dozen or so State Racers (paid race numbers/members of the Montana 4x4 Association) down to the Fairgrounds, on the trailers, and just park 'em there and let the promoter know that if he doesn't treat us better, we won't run - and then LEAVE.

Unfortunately, we had a race somewhere else that weekend instead. :D

Really tough to beat down the big guys for treating you poorly. Their way of thinking is that you're dispensible. It's a crappy way of doing an event, but unfortunately some of the biggest names in the business have been getting away with it for decades.

TEX

Originally posted by woody
cmk, are you competing on foot now or in that convertible?? hell, if I'd known all I needed was a pair of Sketchers, I'd have competed too! :flipoff2:

LOL No. If you really knew me, you'd know that by "competitor," I was referring to short track racing. The similarities in the politics between that and rockcrawling are uncanny.

cm "not feelin' the luv" k

Originally posted by TEX
What's BS is not the $750 1st place. It's the $750 1st place combined with the $350 entry fee.

TEX

That's what I meant, thanks for making it clear.


ERoCC only pays say $650 to 1st place, but nobody's bitching because it's only a $75 event fee. To equal that ratio (1st place/event fee)Hazel should've paid $3K to first.

TRAILKEEPERS ROCK!!!

As far as the drivers organizing, that is basically happening already. The drivers all talk to each other about what is going on. I was at Jason Paule's shop last night, and they had heard from Shuppe how bad the Pro Rock event was. I looked on his wall, and he had phone numbers to many of the top competitors on the wall. They all share some ideas and help each other out. They just haven't officially formed an organization.

Erin

Originally posted by TrailKeeper


ERoCC is a non-profit organization - all of the organizers are either elected officers of the organization or appointed volunteers of elected officers. All of the drivers and spotters are members, so they vote to elect the officers who they feel will best represent them and run the events as they should be run. So, yes the competitors are represented, but so are the volunteers because they are members also and they vote just like the competitors. Everyone is involved.

So does this mean "we the members of Trailkeepers" get to vote on your elected position? When will that take place? If yes, I then assume I can nominate a slate of candidates to assume those non paying, hard working, positions filled by you guys that work hard and don't get paid?

Or was that code for "I plan to vote for reelection of the current officers"? Somebody turn off the coffee maker..............

Originally posted by bigdude


That's what I meant, thanks for making it clear.


ERoCC only pays say $650 to 1st place, but nobody's bitching because it's only a $75 event fee. To equal that ratio (1st place/event fee)Hazel should've paid $3K to first.

TRAILKEEPERS ROCK!!!

I think last competition, 1st in Unlimited took $825... could be wrong, though. ;)

Originally posted by SpaceGhost


So does this mean "we the members of Trailkeepers" get to vote on your elected position? When will that take place? If yes, I then assume I can nominate a slate of candidates to assume those non paying, hard working, positions filled by you guys that work hard and don't get paid?

Or was that code for "I plan to vote for reelection of the current officers"? Somebody turn off the coffee maker..............

Yes, we normally have an annual meeting, held in a central location (last year, it was Jellico), where we will have elections, discussions, so forth.

Originally posted by jeepinchad


I think last competition, 1st in Unlimited took $825... could be wrong, though. ;)

Don't know if it's the case or not with that group, but a lot of times the purse is dependent on the # of entries. Most mud racing classes for example, will run for 100% of entry fees. No more, no less. Around here, we split the purse 40/30/20/10 to the top 4.

Occasionally, you'll find extra money added to the hotter classes. What I do at most events is what I call "Level I" payout. That means all classes pay at least 100%, but I add money to Pro Stock, Modified, and Pro Modified.

The Pro Stock purse is 100% of entry fees plus $750
Modified is 100% plus $1,000
Pro Mod is 100% plus $1,750

In each case, the total purse is still split 40/30/20/10.

Last weekend, I used "Level 2" payout, which I'm gonna require as a minimum for any multi-day races beginning next year. Same 100% payout to the lower classes, but the top classes get a fixed purse regardless of # of entries:

$750 to win Pro Stock, paying down to 6th.
$1,000 to win Modified, paying down to 6th.
$1,200 to win Pro Mod, paying down to 8th.

There's also a Level 3 payout, which I'm gonna require if anyone wants me to sanction a weeknight race. And I'm using a 4th payout schedule for an invitation-only race. Reason I had to do that was that because of the limited # of entries, the purse would have sucked in the classes that normally just pay 100%.

At any rate, as confusing as that all might sound, the payout schedules are advertised on my website & each individual race is clearly advertised as to what payout schedule will be used. And we do adhere to what's advertised.


TEX

I bought an entry fee for for the ProRock Cedar City event Sept. 14-15. Because of work and mostly, because of reading this thread, I'm not going. PM me if you want to buy my entry REALLY cheap. I'm seriuos.

The whole idea of moving on to the next stage after hitting a cone was to keep the competition from bogging down. But if the classes aren't filling up, it doesn't make any sense. There should be plenty of time.

I was at his LasCruses event (before ProRocks). At the drivers meeting, Bob told us that there was now a deduction for using rear steer. I don't like last minute rule changes.

well it looks like bob has made the board, so lets ask him some ? was it true that you advertised 3500 in prize money and only pad 1000. mike

Originally posted by SpaceGhost


So does this mean "we the members of Trailkeepers" get to vote on your elected position? When will that take place? If yes, I then assume I can nominate a slate of candidates to assume those non paying, hard working, positions filled by you guys that work hard and don't get paid?

Or was that code for "I plan to vote for reelection of the current officers"? Somebody turn off the coffee maker..............

As our bylaws state:

"The annual membership meeting of this organization shall be held before the first Saturday of April each and every year...."

"The secretary shall cause to be mailed to every member in good sanding at his preferred contact address as it appears in the membership database a notice telling the date, time and place of such annual meeting....."

"The directors to be chosen for the ensuing year shall be chosen at the annual meeting of this organization and they shall serve for a term of 2 years....."

Our first annual membership meeting was April 7th, 2001, our second was February 23rd, 2002. We will have our third early in 2003. The date and location are still yet to be determined, but you will receive a notice at least 30 days prior to the meeting.

My two year term on the board ends in April and as of right now I am looking to be re-elected.

All right guys- flame on.

I'm lesser known on the board- let me tell you a little- just so you know where I'm coming from. I started racing in 1985, mud drags, northeast corner, all the indoor USHRA shows and a lot of home brew county fair type shows. I enjoyed them all, some more than others. I retired from that sport in 88 when the budlight car started showing up in the enclosed trailer with spare 600+ inch aluminum motors (One motor worth more than my tow rig, trailer, and steel 355, lots of NOS, 2040lb tube chassis car). Sold the car, bought my first house.... By the way- the indoor stuff was invitational based on consistency etc and the outdoor stuff was usually 50-$100 to enter.

I started recreational wheelin again in 94, first competed again in 99. In 01 and 02 I competed in 6 hazel events and about 10 others since 99, all club run type events aside from Hazel's and the recent RRCA sponsored Summer Challenge in Alabama.

I had fun at all those events too- Bob's more than the others. At every event, some pepople are unhappy- it's like picking a radio station- you can't please everyone. I've been angry with him, disagreed with a few things and told him- he's shown me that he will listen and try to fix stuff.

There's been some confusion that I'd like to clear up.

Every one of Bob's events has had a high priority on accomodating spectators- simple business decision- it's a source of revenue and the sponsors like it too.

The purse for prorock is exactly what he has said it would be on every printed document and website he has control of- pro-rated based on entry. If you do the math on the first 3 pro rock events (I could not make the fourth) he paid more than the calculator said he should have.

The first three events had 20-30 in the trophy class- payout has been right around 1k for first and significant prizes worth another $1500 not counting the lucrative BFG contingency.

Bob has never pretented to anyone that this was not his livelyhood. Maybe his business plan (You're supposed to have one to make money right?) has had flaws and maybe he has made some mistakes and left some scorched earth behind- that does not mean he intended to dig himself a hole- even if he has with some people. Our club has worked with Bob on 3 events now- no scorched earth, the few that may whine usually do anyway. I'm glad that Bob has organized events for me to compete in. I would not want his job for $100k a year- 28 weekends scattered over the country (traveling on the road in between events too) is not my idea of fun. I've left high paying road warrior jobs for a better quality of life so I'm no just BSing.

I look forward to more events- especially in my area- no matter who puts them on. I'd like to do RRCA next yr- we'll see. When I spoke with them this Feb I was politely told there was a waiting list- so we obviously have more racers than events. Those that know me know that I can hang with many of the RRCA boys- so it's not like I was turned down for being a slouch.

I personally thought his first 3 Prorock events were pretty decent, I'm sure they're not perfect but at least he's putting them on. If I lived out west I know I'd have more to choose from and compare them too but I don't- so life goes on- I will be at the supercrawl so maybe i can learn there. I'd like to see the entry fee drop some but that will take time- it does cost money to put one of these on. I can't remember what I paid for Moab, Cruces and other organized trail ride events, I'm sure it was less but I had no shot at a purse either. I'm lucky enough to be ahead for the season and that keeps the CFO off my back!

I heard from a buddy who went to the Attica event that there was a lot of grumbling- Rain, tight courses etc. I can't comment too much cause I wasn't there. Hard to hit a home run (or even get on base every time at bat though) I will say this- from what I've seen it's harder to set up a good man made course than work with existing terrain- I heard Troy and company worked their tails off setting it up- it's just more of a challenge, especially twhen the rocks have been freshly stirred and are not quite settled yet.

Tex- doing mud courses is a special science- I would not expect Bob's relative inexperience here to have impressed you- I look forward to going to one of your events for old times sake- maybe somebody will let me take a pass in their car?? (Ok i'm dreaming)

JR- Call me 479 636 4669- I'll work something out with you for Cedar city if you want though I was looking forward to competing with you- I admire your ride and hear you drive well too.

That's all my .02 for now- By the way- before anyone suggests it- I don't work for Bob nor do I have relationships with family members (I think I might of pet his dog once)

Ken Blume:D

Originally posted by G02Guy
(I think I might of pet his dog once)


And I can't count how many times that thing was on the courses :rolleyes: Or getting stepped on (accidently) or over :rolleyes:


I'm all for pets and love my Bulldog to death, but I keep him on a leash when moving vehicles are present or I'm in public.

Originally posted by G02Guy
Tex- doing mud courses is a special science- I would not expect Bob's relative inexperience here to have impressed you-

True that, which is why I'm all too happy to offer up my advice, and if necessary my services ;)

TEX

PS Paperboy Express ran back to back 2.0xx's at my race last Friday. That's a ride for ya :D