Went to a very cool camping spot along a very nice trail who's name shall be not mentioned for various reasons........

Along 50 were massive signs reading "No Campfires" etc etc etc.

At the begining of the trail next to the gate was a large yellow sign with red letter stating "No campfires". etc etc etc

So we head up the trail and along the way two in our group start collecting firewood. WTF! I tell them they are not supposed to have campfires. I got the reply of "well I have a permit". Eventually they conceeded as I wasn't going to back down and tossed their firewood aside.

Wohoo I felt as though I did a good thing, even if I did piss off some riding buddies.

So we get to camp and it's fairly packed and you can hear the sound of chain saws in the background. :rolleyes: I couldn't bring myself to tell 40 people they shouldn't have a fire. So I sat down and just shook my head and counted the days before this trail is offically off the OHV list because OHV'ers can't be trusted.

Well the drunken partiying starts to heat up about dusk as does the campfires. I swear we were the only camp in camp that DIDN'T have a fire.

Un-F-ing-beleivable.

I thought of breaking out the digital and taking some photo's but decieded against it, considering I was already not on the favored list in our group for squelching the fires I could imagine if I was taking pictures of others with their white man fires.

Oh yea and as we were leaving we had to go put out a fire that one group decieded they didn't need to put out! And they where 50 feet from the lake!

:mad:

You try to follow the rules and lead by example, and you should be proud of your group.

The others have to learn somehow and, rather than taking pictures, a comment and education is better than letting them remain ignorant. The caution is when you offer a comment, or even if you take out the camera, you are an unpaid volunteer (trying to keep trails open) and the negative attitude you may get is not worth the pay.

Say what you can, in the hope they listen, and then let it go (the least you can do is make them aware and alert to the danger, and maybe they will be more cautious in the illegal activity).

We cannot compell others to stop doing what they feel is a right, and we have to respect that they feel it's allowable if they practice the activity in a safe manner. Campfires are not the problem, they are common throughout history (even during extreme fire danger conditions), careless campfire tenders are the problem. This is where the friendly comment that they can borrow your shovel and bucket, if they feel it is their absolute right to have a campfire, and it's worth the trouble (your trouble) to make sure the potential for a problem goes no further than their campsite.

You will not help the problem, but you offer to help with the solution (and if they are jerks, note the license numbers for reporting if the situation does get out of hand).

If you still feel irked, think about how many hikers were probably also warming by an open campfire the same evening? Yes, we don't hear too much about the illegal fires started by the Wilderness hikers (not until they blow up), but they are just a numerous (more if you believe the Wilderness usage propaganda). The difference is the Wilderness hiker fires are not accessable, they are hidden behind hills and fences (lines of abandonment management), unaccessable to other responsible citizens to water the coals when the careless fail to do the job.

The carelessness of others will not make you happy, but it may make you less critical of off-roaders (put the truth into perspective) as off-roaders as a rule are not a renegade enthusiast group (we are no worse than other enthusiasts, only we recognize the need to follow the rules, and that we are more easily monitored). The greens may villify the off-roader as the typical joker with a campfire, but the truth in numbers (and fire origination statistics) will tell a different story (more fires are started by illegal hikers and 15-feet from the on-road pavement campers).

I would never publish a digital print of illegal activity by an off-roader (you never see picts of illegal hikers cutting trail or defacing trail signs, even if it is common, do you). The opportunity to reproduce the picture out of context, or even outright photochop the image to distort the facts is too risky. The motorized opposition is skilled enough at confusing the public without our help.

The fact you posted assures the fact you care. Learning how to communicate why and how you care, on the spot, is something where everyone can use the help (even trained Rangers and LEO's with the BLM and USFS).

Happy Trails!

Last week on the trail we were on there were tons of illegal fires. we asked two groups to put them out, with one group actually listening after we mentioned a large fine...and the other group basically said "thanks and Fawk off" but not in those exact words....they were at least polite about it...the rest of the groups were on opposite sides of the lake so we didn't approach them...

Hats off to the Pacific 4x4 Association who were out on the same trail with us and did the same thing.....


:usa:

Ed; I agree on the how to communicate part. First off I don't care if people have fires. Hell I'd much rather have a fire. The problem in this case is that the camp area is next to a popular hiking trial and it isn't uncommon to see green propoganda on the hikers as they pass the camp spot. What I envision is one or several of these hikers are going to take plates and report them to the forest service. The forest service will see that "virtually every weekend, OHV'ers are breaking the rules up there" (whether true or not). And then make the decision to close and lock the gate, never to be opened again. The gates in place and opening/closing the lock is up to the forest services whim as it is. So as I stated above I don't care if someone has a fire, but if having a campfire closes a awesome trail forever that's a steep price for a little comfort.

I considered the fact that I may be an ass for informing/educating and I sure there are more than a handfull here that would agree with that comment. But who would be the bigger ass, the guy trying to get people to play within the rules or the guy who exceeds them and gets the trail closed?

I would always attempt polite communication and resorting to a conflict wouldn't be worth it as that would indicate that they feel very strong about their right to do what they please, even if it makes it so everyone after them is screwed. In this case by the time we got into camp people were already feeling good and attempting to educate would have been futile if not violent.

I would not post the images if I took them but I would share them with a few individuals.

I used to be the hiker/backpacker so you won't here any arguement from me on the illegal activity that takes place in the back country or deep into a hiking trail.

Sub, if it was a 50/50 split on listening/thank you fawk off, I think we'd be making huge progress. ;)

Oh well That's my vent, thanks for listening.

Most of the people who go on the trails don't even have a fire permit. I was camping and stoped and got my permit and was told no open fires and no barb.pit fires. And the guy standing next to me getting a trail map herd everything the forest ranger said . Later that night here he is with a big bonfire built 10 ' away from a half dead tree. And I also had to put 3-5 gal.of water on it the next day. all thay did was piss on it, dam dip-shits.
:flipoff2: :mad3:

BD- you're addicted to "it" now aren't ya?!
Take pics just as the fires are starting, containing the fire, and license plates (angled from the plate to avoid reflection.) and if need be run! I have been threatened with bodily harm a few times now. Take pics. return to camp and hide the camera or memory card. Then go tell the offending people of the situation. You won't do anything with the pics-UNLESS they keep the fire going. It's their decision. I'd rather be a dick and have trails to run in the future than to win a popularity contest at the mall.

Originally posted by Aggro
BD- you're addicted to "it" now aren't ya?!
<snip> I'd rather be a dick and have trails to run in the future than to win a popularity contest at the mall. Very much so and excellent point.

BD, Right there with ya, man. I too have decided to take a stand this last year. I will not sit by quietly and watch shit happen that will destroy/close our trails. My thread on Gen4x4 about the idiot on Fordyce this weekend tells my story. I will say things, and hopefully my Irishness doesn't get me into too much trouble.

Aggro, good strategy on the camera stuff.

SeanP