Okay guys a comment from TTC Staff. (Not Magazine Staff) I really should stay out of this but so much sh$%t is flying around right now something needs to be said.

ALL!!! Trucks that send in their photos and info make it into the Mag. No one is cut out. The whole thing is READER!! Driven. No actual magazine staff does anything to sway or hinder what vehicle makes it to the event. YOU!! Decide what makes it to Hollister. Now the rules are posted and if you make it to Hollister and when the event gets to your vehicle, and it does not pass inspection, an alternate is put in your place. You knew well in advance what the rules were. Last year an alternate drove across country just in case he made it in. Now that is sportsmanship.

As for the Street legal thing. It is an attempt to level out the field. And enter the fact that those that were in events past remember that you had to drive from the park to the Airport right down Main Street Hollister. What, you don’t think that the local Cops aren’t watching?? The Magazine I am sure is watching their butts so that some competitor doesn’t sue the pants off them because they had their vehicle impounded by the CHP and it’s going to cost them a fortune to get it back by fixing the book of violations they have. Hence the “Must be Street legal rule”

Those that have been in the event know that all stickers are to be removed or covered up. This I am sure is a corporate thing. It can be construed as advertising and would be out of contract. Hence the no Sponsorship thing. This is lawyer legal beagle thing driven by our sue happy nation of courts and gold diggers.

And of course the event is to sell magazines. That’s why the rules state no publicity. I have seen how much it costs the Mag to put this event on. And if the results are posted way before the Mag comes out then why buy the Mag?? Therefore the event is a money loser. If you already knew the stats and who won, why do the event at all?? The Mag is not a non-profit organization. They do this to make a living. You wouldn’t want someone to tell you how to run your business would you?? If you knew who won Daytona or Which team won the Super Bowl how would you feel?? Would you still pay the couple of hundred bucks for a ticket to go?? Of course not.

If things keep going the way they have been then the event will fail. Gee kinda like what we are going thru on the various trails we play on. We trash our environment, (yes a minority), then we complain about the greenies when we get shut out, we bi%#ch about the loss.

The above comment is not endorsed by or influenced by any magazine anywhere. This comment is solely my opinion. Any comments should be directed to me and not to any magazine or any magazine staff anywhere.

I like the event, all that will go in the future and all that have gone will say it is an experience they have enjoyed and would do again. Lets not lose this event, just go with it and enjoy it….


SAR_Sammy
Mike
TTC Medical Support since 1998

What no comments???

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy
If you knew who won Daytona or Which team won the Super Bowl how would you feel?? Would you still pay the couple of hundred bucks for a ticket to go??

Answer in short: Yes.

I bought the magazine even though I knew the results. I did it because I wanted to see the professional pics, and, mainly, just more pics. I also like reading the articles about the rigs. In fact, I bought a subscription. :flipoff2:

To try to control something like the grapevine is stupid. You can't do it. Say a spectator came back from TTC and posted the results on here with a write-up. It's free speach! You could never keep that from happening and it would never hold up in court.

J. J.

Originally posted by patooyee

Answer in short: Yes.

It's free speach! You could never keep that from happening and it would never hold up in court.

J. J.

Yeah! What he said. This internet vs. "the man" issue has been "discussed" forever. Nothing to do with 4x4 competitions though. It truly is a free speach thing.

If I had the opportunity to learn something and wanted to share it with my friends.... I CAN!

Re-publishing copyrighted material is another issue. I'm talking about taking pics, relaying stats, etc. There is nothing wrong with that if I didn't sign a contract prior to publication.

So contracts... Certainly, if I signed a contract, I'd have to conform to whatever it was I agreed to right? And apparently that is the real issue. Should they, could they, would they? Well, they are. I think that the POR is THE source for all of the "latest" ideas and material. I also think that most of the people on the POR are way ahead of many of the mag readers. Not that I don't read mags, butI do see technical, event, etc., articles well befor the mags here on this board.

That leads to the mag publishers benefiting from this board... If they keep the leading edge people from discussing and reporting on current events as they relate to mainstream issues and technologies, they are simply shooting themselves in the foot.

There is alot to learn from the PORe folks on this board.

--JoshC

Originally posted by patooyee




To try to control something like the grapevine is stupid. You can't do it. Say a spectator came back from TTC and posted the results on here with a write-up. It's free speach! You could never keep that from happening and it would never hold up in court.

J. J.


Ditto!!



Adam,

I'd pretty much have to agree with what everyone else says... My main gripe with the mag is that the lead time is freakin huge... I would think a big huge magazine would be able to have it out the next month, not 5-6 months later... Camp Jeep 2001 just made it into one of the mags... A lot of stuff is WAYYYYYY over by the time it happens... Certain things I can understand... Vehicle features... Tech articles... Smaller trail runs... but I personally view TTC to be kinda big... yet, it still take 5 months to make it into the mag... And even though I read every account I could, i still bought the magazine. And i will buy it again next month too...

IMO, the people that got the results from TTC on POR (gee, I wonder how that happened) are more likely to buy the magazine because their interest has been stirred.
Can’t take the Internet into the bathroom, car or for me, work. It’s only $3.99 (us) for pet’s sake! I would not doubt that magazine sales go up because of the buzz on the Internet about TTC.

You say that ALL pics sent in get in the mag to be voted on? I say not!!! I even Fedex it this year too. :rolleyes: Thats what pissed me off :mad:

Yeah, my buddy just got that mag and I was over at his house last night and had to tell him I already knew the results. He got kinda pissed, but after seeing some of the write ups on the rigs, I kinda want to go out and buy it. It really looks well done!

Originally posted by Shadow man
You say that ALL pics sent in get in the mag to be voted on? I say not!!! I even Fedex it this year too. :rolleyes: Thats what pissed me off :mad:

Exactly, not ALL the pics get to be voted on.

- jack

Will i still buy the magizine... YES.... why... cuz i love pics..... if you are worried about it too much get better editors and writers and make the storys accout for more. just my opinion

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy
ALL!!! Trucks that send in their photos and info make it into the Mag. No one is cut out.

Ummmmm, I don't think Four Wheeler has ever claimed that. In fact, they typically publish the # of entries the recieve (average ~1,000 per year), and then pare it down to the ones that are in the mag.


As for the Street legal thing. It is an attempt to level out the field.

Workin' really well, isn't it :rolleyes: I'm callin' complete BS on this one. If the intent were to level the playing field, they'd put restrictions on the TYPE of modifications allowed. Not that I'm saying they SHOULD put such restrictions in place - I'm not advocating that at all. I'm just saying that THAT is how you level the playing field. Since the regs on what IS "street legal" vary so much from place to place, no friggin' way is a "street legal" rule going to level the playing field. Seems to me the ONLY reason for the rule is insurance & to avoid hassle from the CHP.

TEX

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy
And enter the fact that those that were in events past remember that you had to drive from the park to the Airport right down Main Street Hollister.

Actually, I think only 2 or 3 of us drove to the airport this year. Everyone else trailered.

--Rob

I would still pay to go see the superbowl. Why? BECAUSE IT'S THE FREAKIN' SUPERBOWL!!! :flipoff2: TTC is the same, if I knew who won I probably wouldn't tell anyone but I'd still attend and watch for myself because it looks like some awesome wheelin'.

I think the reason 4wheeler got choked about pics being up on the internet is because they made the dudes sign a no-publicity contract, but forgot the internet stuff so it made them look kind of stupid next year. And as for it holding up in court next year, it's a CONTRACT. If you did get away with it I'd say it'd be pretty slim. But then again you yanks seem to have better luck with your legal system.. :D

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy


ALL!!! Trucks that send in their photos and info make it into the Mag. No one is cut out. The whole thing is READER!! Driven. No actual magazine staff does anything to sway or hinder what vehicle makes it to the event. YOU!! Decide what makes it to Hollister.
sorry... but if that was true then they whould have about 100 pages of truck pics:rolleyes:

They still got the $12.95 a year from the future ex-mother in law. She bought me the subscription for Christmas.

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy


And of course the event is to sell magazines. That’s why the rules state no publicity. I have seen how much it costs the Mag to put this event on. And if the results are posted way before the Mag comes out then why buy the Mag?? Therefore the event is a money loser. If you already knew the stats and who won, why do the event at all?? The Mag is not a non-profit organization. They do this to make a living. You wouldn’t want someone to tell you how to run your business would you?? If you knew who won Daytona or Which team won the Super Bowl how would you feel?? Would you still pay the couple of hundred bucks for a ticket to go?? Of course not.

You are comparing apples to oranges and you are a little confused. You suggest that the results are known before the TTC had been completed. The event was already over. Having the results known before the magazine is published is no different than hearing the score of a televised tape-delayed football game or stock car race on the radio. If the magazine had a decent web page they could do more to promote their upcoming issues and get people interested in subscriptions. Instead the Fourwheeler web site is little more than a big yellow pop-up. The internet does not replace other media, it complements it.

Exactly,

I know the outcome of the Daytona race before my Speedway Illustrated comes in the mail.....

...and by the way the very next issue has the results and full blown write-up.....

Hank

Originally posted by FYRMAN
They still got the $12.95 a year from the future ex-mother in law. She bought me the subscription for Christmas.
She got riped off I only pay 10.00 a year:eek:

Originally posted by JR

Can’t take the Internet into the bathroom, car or for me, work.

Laptop with wireless:D :D

Some of you have made very good points...

I will have some very good questions for Jon Thompson from these comments the next time we talk on the phone. I of course, am in no position for him to tell me the truth or even answer the questions at all. I have more insider information about TTC, but you will have to trust me that I am not at liberty to post it here. Some of your comments were completely contradictory to what I have been told and seen with my eyes. Hence the questions for him.

I am not the final word on TTC I just spoke with what I have known/seen in past years...


SAR_Sammy
Mike

What, you don’t think that the local Cops aren’t watching

Do you make them sign copyright agreements, too? :D

Bryan

Originally posted by SAR_Sammy
Some of you have made very good points...


I don't know if I'm one of those or not, LOL. But, let me state that I have no problem with the current format of TTC. I LIKE the "anything goes" setup. I just think that "anything goes, AS LONG AS IT's REGISTERED" is kinda goofy, and it puts those who live in areas of strict regs at a disadvantage. If you're gonna allow people to bring things like the Raptor from states where such a vehicle is legal, then you have to allow folks to bring one from places where it is NOT legal.

TEX

Originally posted by TEX
I just think that "anything goes, AS LONG AS IT's REGISTERED" is kinda goofy, and it puts those who live in areas of strict regs at a disadvantage. If you're gonna allow people to bring things like the Raptor from states where such a vehicle is legal, then you have to allow folks to bring one from places where it is NOT legal.

Agreed.

SAR_Sammy, I know you personally bust your butt at TTC, and part of the reason it's as much fun to compete in, is *because* you (and the rest of the non-magazine staff) bust your butts to make it that way.

As far as the results getting posted beforehand, unless they actually enforce their rules (driver, vehicle, and spotter only, for one) it'll keep happening.

I can't begin to tell you how ticked I was when I arrived to find that some competitors had brought "teams" with them, while I was told "call an airline" when I explained that I had to fly out in order to make the competition in time. I was told that I couldn't bring my wife along unless she was my spotter. I was specifically told that if she came along, she'd have to get a room in town, she couldn't even stay in camp. MY WIFE DROVE ME TO THE AIRPORT ON MY WEDDING NIGHT, AND THEN WENT HOME ALONE. The scheduling was my problem; I don't begrudge them for that. The inconsistency, however, pissed me off to no end--one guy had a crew of seven, counting driver and spotter, and I was told to leave my wife home. I don't like to hold grudges, but some experiences demand it.

Please feel free to pass this info along to Jon... you and he both know who I am, and that this isn't made-up.

Incidents like that, however, are the "leaks" that will make Four Wheeler eventually lose money on the event. And as prickish as it may make me sound... it's their problem to figure out something to do about it. If they don't, they will continue to see declining mag sales on the TTC coverage from year to year... eventually losing money on the event, and cancelling it. I'd hate to see it happen, but... well... there's other threads on similar stuff (Bob Hazel's currently being spit-roasted on this very board) and the bottom line is, the promoters that put on a better event, are the ones who will continue to put on good events on into the future. The competitions where the judging is inconsistent, the rules are enforced more stringently on some than others, the course changes, etc., are the ones that will fade into the background. The events that have uniformly enforced rules, consistent (accountable) judging, stuff like that, will be the ones that are considered the cream of the crop.

Scott, that is unbelievable (in the sense that it happened). I can't believe they did that. We had no problems, but in our group was small. I think the rules said 4 on the team. I can't remember anyone having a real big crew, but I know Abba had the wife and his spotters wife there too with no problems (she even cooked for us!)

No one made any noise whatsoever about camp, including who could be there and who couldn't. They must have learned from their mistake with you and not made an issue of it this year. You're wife sounds like a great lady too BTW. Sounds like you got the better end of the bargain.

Tim.

Originally posted by WOLF359
Scott, that is unbelievable (in the sense that it happened). I can't believe they did that. We had no problems, but in our group was small. I think the rules said 4 on the team. I can't remember anyone having a real big crew, but I know Abba had the wife and his spotters wife there too with no problems (she even cooked for us!)

And I'm all OK with that... camp in '01 was wide-open, come-n-go as you please, and anybody that registered with a team was free to go up and watch (and photograph, videotape, and report on) the events. Totally in contrast to what they told me (more than once) on the phone beforehand. If I'd known ahead of time that I'd be permitted to bring my wife, I'd have bought two plane tickets, and we'd have had at least the start of the honeymoon, in Hollister.

No one made any noise whatsoever about camp, including who could be there and who couldn't. They must have learned from their mistake with you and not made an issue of it this year. You're wife sounds like a great lady too BTW. Sounds like you got the better end of the bargain.

Camp was a nice layout last time too... very laid-back, no fuss about anything... just the way it should be. Like I said, lay out the rules ahead of time, and stick to 'em, and there's no issues. Change the rules on registration day, and all I can hope is that I won't be the only one crying "bull#%*$#!"

I agree that my wife got the short end of the stick on the marriage thing... I do what I can to try, but she's far and away the better half of it.

I attended one day of this year's TTC and spoke to John Thompson and Sar-Sammy. Both were very nice to me and I know I wasn't 'supposed' to be there. I'm pretty sure the mag does everything it can to keep people away because lots of people make it harder for them. Liability is a problem and so are a ton of fools in the background (or even foreground) of every picture. They tend to threaten alot beforehand, but then get rather soft at the actual event.
One of the things I talked to John about was expandind the TTC to have both an unlimited competition and a 'regular joe' class. We tossed around ideas on how to regulate the basic class. I was suprised how approachable he was.