I Think it really sucks but I think we are losing Tellico.A few years ago I made the prediction that they would close lower 2 first and then move on to other trails and close the park slowly but in fact they closed Peckerwood,Slickrock,etc.. It was much worse than I expected.There's alot of things that have really pissed me off about Tellico in recent years,the fact you cant go up ther without getting harassed by the Ranger there really sucks,Afew years ago he pulled me over 3 times from the state line to the first pay campground a half a mile away and acted as if he never talked to me before,for stupid shit and he gave me no citation or anything......Also as we we're setting up camp he came sneaking up out of nowhere into our camp,spying on us.I know I'm not the only one with this complaint,because everyone I talk to that goes to Tellico has the same feeling about that guy.For me Tellico went from being a place I couldnt wait to get to,to a place where we were just hoping to get camp set up before the harassment began.

and...........I dont think the SFWDA is doing enough to save Tellico,to me, the only thing they're doing is relaying the message.We need a positive,pro active voice.Maybe Im overlooking what the SFWDA is doing.How about someone giving some info on steps they've taken.

and...........I dont think the SFWDA is doing enough to save Tellico,to me, the only thing they're doing is relaying the message.We need a positive,pro active voice.Maybe Im overlooking what the SFWDA is doing.How about someone giving some info on steps they've taken.

No offense, but you need to do some research and then delete this post.

No offense, but you need to do some research and then delete this post.


Thank you. I agree. And, if someone doesn't think that we (SFWDA) are doing enough, you are welcome to sack up and join us. Bitching about things from behind your keyboard is easy. Give us your time or give us your money, but give something other than a hard time.

I am a member and have been for a long,long time.Assuming I'm not a member because I bring this up?I've done research and I dont think theres anything the SFWDA has done or will do or can do that will keep Tellico open.Maybe I shouldve said the SFWDA CAN'T do enough.The SFWDA was involved when the forest service closed the TN side of the trails,right?How is that any different?I'm not saying the SFWDA is not worth joining I'm just saying it will take alot more money than the SFWDA can generate.Pirate is a forum for opinions and to delete this post is stupid.

BTW...I have donated alot of my time to the SFWDA.

Something everyone needs to do, is order a paper copy of the EA. I think it is important that the FS provide all concerned stake holders with a complete copy of the EA so we can accurately complete a response. This thing is thick and you really need a copy. Don't let them try to talk you out of it, I understand that this will be a HUGE expense and TIME CONSUMING effort on the FS part, many trees will parish, but we deserve this consideration. I highly suggest sending an OFFICIAL e-mail request first and then a follow up phone call. This will assure that Candace gets your request and you get what you need.

1. An Environmental Assessment (EA) for the long-term management of the Upper Tellico OHV System. You may download a copy of the EA and related graphics at http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/tellico. If you would like to receive a paper copy of the EA, please e-mail your request to: comments-southern-north-carolina@fs.fed.us or call (828) 257-4817, and one will be mailed to you. For questions concerning the project or the EA contact Candace Wyman, Project Coordinator, at 828-257-4816.

I haven't been around here all that long so I'm probably talking out my A, but-
I think SFWDA is doing all they can. The "problem" I see is they are the "Southern" assoc and they're area encompasses more than just Tellico. Same goes for BRS & UFWDA. I think there should be a "Friends of Tellico" group who's charge is to deal with those issues. Providing it can be re-opened, this is the group that should be working directly with the Forestry Service, local Chambers of Commerce etc. Even now, they could be seeking alternative methods. Seeking help from local C of C, newspapers, city & town officials. Should "Spring Fling" become an actual protest?
Get some sort of "warm, fuzzy" web page up so that the non-wheelers can see why they should be behind this.
I think there is a lot that can be done but a lot of it needs to be done on the local level and I don't think we should expect SFWDA to be shouldering it all. It is our playground after all.
After all the closures done and that are coming, this same thing should be going on at all local areas.
Just having another legal "group" watching over the Forestry & BLM can't hurt either.
My $.02

I agree, I think Southern is doing what they can. I won't hide the fact that I think the communication should have been better in the past but I feel that will change shortly. If we didn't have this study provided by them where would we sit now? What do you have to debunk the Forest Service and their claims that Tellico is too costly and not worth opening?

I'd say just about jack squat. Southern has provided time and effort and behind the scenes palnning to allow us to have two legs to stand on in this fight. Agree to disagree if you'd like but I think we would way behind in this if it wasn't for them.

Also, I think you wanted a list of things they've done. Well, here's the short list I have....

1) Filed suit against the FS
2) Obtained a lawyer
3) Met with the Forest Service numerous times to tell them what our voice is saying
4) Teamed with UFWDA and BRC
5) Hired Caliber, had them do a complete study of the area and had them write a proposal based on that data collected and analyzed

I don't think we as a community could have put that together on our own. If you want to complain about lack of effort I suggest we look at ourselves. We had a mediocre turn out in the rally thread. I medium response to the first Spring Fling and not a lot of written letters. Form letters, yes but hand written or typed letters, no.

I think Tellico is a good example of all of us waiting for something to go bad before we do anything at all.If we were doing all we could, we would have built bridges way before we had to at all the stream crossings.As with all the areas we ride in ,we need to stand up to people when we see them off marked trails and build bridges to protect the areas where erosion happens.We cannot be lazy anymore!Prevention is key and I think we could have prevented this from going this far.

I think Tellico is a good example of all of us waiting for something to go bad before we do anything at all.If we were doing all we could, we would have built bridges way before we had to at all the stream crossings.As with all the areas we ride in ,we need to stand up to people when we see them off marked trails and build bridges to protect the areas where erosion happens.We cannot be lazy anymore!Prevention is key and I think we could have prevented this from going this far.

I agree with you 100% and I think we should start a Friends of Tellico group as soon as we get our area back.

I think starting a Friends now would be a help in dealing with the FS.
If you go in and say "we've got a bunch of guys that are willing to help" They're going to say "who?". If you have a legitimate "corporation", then you have something that you can enter into agreements with the FS.
I know- what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

Friends of Tellico is an awsome idea and it wouldnt hurt to start it now.

I think starting a Friends now would be a help in dealing with the FS.
If you go in and say "we've got a bunch of guys that are willing to help" They're going to say "who?". If you have a legitimate "corporation", then you have something that you can enter into agreements with the FS.
I know- what comes first, the chicken or the egg.

While I agree that a FOT would be great, let's not forget that SFWDA already does this stuff. We go, we talk, we make agreements, we work on the trails, we report our work to the FS, etc. I agree with Nick, let's do this when we get our area back. Right now, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LISTEN! We have done EVERYTHING that any group could do. I don't know how to make y'all understand that.

Thank you. I agree. And, if someone doesn't think that we (SFWDA) are doing enough, you are welcome to sack up and join us. Bitching about things from behind your keyboard is easy. Give us your time or give us your money, but give something other than a hard time.
Where has all the money gone that WE have donated to the SFWDA for the Rescue Tellico fund?I would like to see where the money is going.How about a summary.How much has the SFWDA collected?How much has been spent and where it's been spent.How much did the Caliber assessment cost?

Where has all the money gone that WE have donated to the SFWDA for the Rescue Tellico fund?I would like to see where the money is going.How about a summary.How much has the SFWDA collected?How much has been spent and where it's been spent.How much did the Caliber assessment cost?

As you know, our anti-access TU friends regularly visit this forum looking for information to use against us in this fight. I do not want to disclose our financial strengths and weaknesses here. If you want to know generalities then please email Jay Bird, Rescue Tellico Chairman. PM me for his email address.

Also, we have had a number of member meetings...in fact, we have one every quarter, where we discuss this and talk about the money raised and budgets, etc. You are welcome to attend those meetings. They are listed on our website www.sfwda.org.

I see it like this, I’ve tried contacting Tim Wilhelm along with members of TU have yet to get any kind of direct response from either. I’ve stated that I understand their concerns and would like to work with them instead of against them to better protect our public lands…but still no answer. Why? Because Tim and TU have no desire to work with us. We could have gone in and paved every trail, built bridges across every creek crossing and it still would not have made any difference in their eyes.

So what do we do? Well it’s obvious that TU can throw a heck of a lot more money at this than we can, so we need more money. Where do we get it? Well that is where we have to be as creative as TU is. What other activist group has tons of money and are constantly sending in their lawyers? PETA! That’s right…PETA. If TU is going to spend that much money to put us out, we should do everything within our power to repay the favor. Their claim of the fish being harmed can play right into PETA’s hands. We can give PETA the proof they need that the harm is not coming from the trails…so maybe they can determine “where” the harm is coming from…as in TU. Yes, I know how most feel about PETA and I feel the same but, sometimes you have to combine forces to fight a common enemy.

This is however just my opinion.

To me, simply requiring tags and insurance may stop alot of the heavy land disturbance by the large tired rigs.

As you know, our anti-access TU friends regularly visit this forum looking for information to use against us in this fight. I do not want to disclose our financial strengths and weaknesses here. If you want to know generalities then please email Jay Bird, Rescue Tellico Chairman. PM me for his email address.

Also, we have had a number of member meetings...in fact, we have one every quarter, where we discuss this and talk about the money raised and budgets, etc. You are welcome to attend those meetings. They are listed on our website www.sfwda.org.

Yes, I understand.I wasnt trying you get anyone to disclose the funding publicly,just wondering if the SFWDA budget is available for members to view.Theres alot of people who can't attend meetings on a regular basis and aren't up to speed on everything.

To me, simply requiring tags and insurance may stop alot of the heavy land disturbance by the large tired rigs.

I think you're missing "their" point. They do not want any of us on the trails...period.

Well it’s obvious that TU can throw a heck of a lot more money at this than we can
That's why we should have tried to get major manufacturers and offroad company's in volved.If you can't ride them,why buy them.

To me, simply requiring tags and insurance may stop alot of the heavy land disturbance by the large tired rigs.
WTF:flipoff2: Thats like picking on the fat kid

That's why we should have tried to get major manufacturers and offroad company's in volved.If you can't ride them,why buy them.

Could've should've would've is all but behind us now. So we need to get their asses kicked out also...thus aligning with their other enemy...PETA.

Really, why should we sit back and take it? If I’m not mistaking and K9 can correct me if I’m wrong, we’ve been put out as of now. Once an area is closed…it’s almost impossible to get it reversed so in my eyes fair turn is fair play. We need to let them feel the same pain.

Well, I'm not sure how many of you have read this but I'm betting a fair amount of you have.

The Proposed/Preferred Alternative is Alternative "B".

However, the Forest Supervisor seems to be taking the easy way out. In my mind, this is where you need to to start from.

While I understand how important the Upper Tellico OHV System is to OHV users, the impacts to water quality are so significant that I cannot recommend keeping the System open at this time.

After careful consideration of the environmental effects of the alternatives as presented in the EA, my preferred alternative is Alternative C, which closes the OHV System.

Alternative C would maintain over 10 miles of existing Forest system roads (currently also OHV trails), open year-round or seasonally, to provide public access for hunting, fishing and other recreation uses.

Trail 1 (FS Road 420-1) would be paved and kept open as a through route for highway-legal vehicles.

To get fisherman banned from fishing ,would be like stopping hikers from hiking not gonna happen.Thier fishing for a fish raised for the frying pan.

To get fisherman banned from fishing ,would be like stopping hikers from hiking not gonna happen.Thier fishing for a fish raised for the frying pan.

They can fish "outside" the parks boundaries. We should do everything possible to keep them from harming the fish on public lands. If we’re successful here, we should look to other areas too.

As for me...I's lov's me some fried trout...:flipoff2:

what about attacking the problem... the guy calling the shots for the forest service is apparently a trout fisher who is in tu. can we go to his boss with facts and figures. if enough proof is shown he is out for his own good and his groups own good and not serving the public then he should be fired. all the facts and logic does not mean shit if he does not have to answer to anyone. with all the shady underhanded "crap science" that has been made it is obvious we are not fighting a honorable fight. if we play by the rules then we can hold our head high that we fought a gentalmans fight and lost. we look like shitbags... they fired first, they made up whatever they could and then they got a "scientific study" to prove we are mindless idiots set on destroing the enviroment. honestly, if you did not know shit about either side and looked at the whole case we are the bad guys. they did a great job of throwing us under the bus and a lot of that has be set into play a while ago by the missmanagment of the area by the fs. in order to make any headway that is where we need to focus all of our energy on. if he continues to have his way all the heart felt stories, 10 min letters and true facts and figures do not mean shit. i hope someone is on this allready and not saying anything.


i have bitched about the politics in sfwd before and they do get in the way of getting things done BUT... in this case we need that kind of group. i have not done as much as i wish i could and now i cannot do shit due to the economy but i will break out the pen and paper even tho i do not think it will do any good. if anything comes out of this i hope some of the other parks get some previntative mantnace before we are put on the defensive.

To me, simply requiring tags and insurance may stop alot of the heavy land disturbance by the large tired rigs.

Great idea, then we can all go hit guardrail in our Wranglers on 31s. Actually, it's the small tire clowns that caused a lot of this problem by making bypasses around the obstacles.

Great idea, then we can all go hit guardrail in our Wranglers on 31s. Actually, it's the small tire clowns that caused a lot of this problem by making bypasses around the obstacles.

well i ran the whole damn place in my yota cab truck on 42's with tags and insurance. look on youtube at the tenn crowd. they are prolly worse than the open 31" guys

Right now, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO LISTEN! We have done EVERYTHING that any group could do. I don't know how to make y'all understand that.

Sooo, shouldn't we be sending letters to elected officials rather than the FS?

I don't think you should discount the local businesses/ chambers of commerce.
In MA, we have a local, unmaintained road that goes through a state forest. The ONLY reason the state hasn't been able to take it over and give us the boot is because of the support from the local business community. Course most of the local business owners are also on the town councils, etc and have easy access to the state reps. Does it really work any different in your town?

Sooo, shouldn't we be sending letters to elected officials rather than the FS?

I don't think you should discount the local businesses/ chambers of commerce.
In MA, we have a local, unmaintained road that goes through a state forest. The ONLY reason the state hasn't been able to take it over and give us the boot is because of the support from the local business community. Course most of the local business owners are also on the town councils, etc and have easy access to the state reps. Does it really work any different in your town?

My statement was in response to what someone said about another public meeting. They will not listen to us and will not give us that. The only avenue we have to change their mind is to write letters.

Of course, that being said, we'll also be meeting with them and talking things through. Not to mention using any and all political connections to apply pressures.

So to answer your question, yes...write to your elected officials. Involve the community and the businesses, but also write to the FS. The way the NEPA reads, this is our time to comment. If we don't, and we don't like the outcome, and then we appeal the decision, we will have no leg to stand on if we do not properly comment during the 30 days we are in now.

Got it- and much clearer
Thank you

Should the FS close Tellico. Do they have any figures as to what it will cost to enforce the ruling as well as repair damage that will happen by "rogue" wheelers?

This was posted on the NC4x4 site

Originally Posted by YellowjeepCj View Post
Folks:
I have not followed this a closely as I should have. I did read over the options considered by the FS. Has anyone proposed the Harlan Ky. model as an option.
It seams to me that Cherokee (City of Murphy) and Graham Counties in North Carolina and Monroe County (City of Tellico Plains) Tennessee should have a vested interest in keeping the OHV recreation area open for the economic health of the area.
As an engineer registered in many states including NC and TN with 25 years of experience in Hydrology, Hydraulics, Sedimentology and Water Quality in storm water management, I believe there is an answer short of complete closure. I noted that over 40 miles of trails were closed in 1980 when USFS took over the ownership of Tellico. They left 40 miles open for OHV use. I believe trail rotation on a 5 year basis may help solve the problem. We could close the existing trails seed and install BMP's for erosion and sediment control using county equipment and labor(maybe even funding from the stimulus package since this helps with job creation/preservation). Maybe using these same forces we could open 40 miles of trails many of which were closed 30 years ago by installing control measures and allow these to be used for 5 years or so then begin a rotation of 8 miles per year so that each five years a trail rests for five years.
I take issue with how the FS is applying the NC water quality standard for turbidity to trout waters. I think there are other technical flaws in the assessment. These are arguments for another venue. I am not sure the technical will matter at this point.
Trail rotation is not possible without a partnership with the Counties mentioned above and a strong trail manager and planner. I don't think the USFS has the man power or budgets to make this happen. If we could foster a partnership between the Counties mentioned above and the USFS using SFWD as the catalyst to get the Counties to agree to help with maintenance and upkeep as well as help provide enforcement(use of sheriff deputies).
It may be prudent to limit in the beginning the vehicles to those with license and registration and insurance. This may eliminate the dirt bikes and 4-wheelers as well as some hybird rigs until the trail rotation plan could get off the ground. One could introduce these type vehicles in the mix as trails are managed and brought into use. Trail usage could be enforced by sheriff departments of the local counties with agreements with the USFS.
Does anyone know if anything like this has been proposed? Has any of the local officials been approached to discuss the possibilities? I may be way late here and much of this water may have already passed under the bridge. I would be interested to know if there has been an effort to get local, state and national politicians involved. Again, I may be way off base here but thought it may merit a discussion.

Reading the comments on SFWDA, I have to say I'm flippin out. There are several stages of grief, starts with denial, moves to hope, Anger then to acceptance. The point is that the ANGER is pointed at the wrong people. The people that are being questioned are the only people that has stepped up to the challenge to keep Tellico open. These people are not spending your donations on parties. It is going to save something that is important to all of you. If we had to fight individually for something like Tellico OHV, it would have been off the map a long time ago. Something else to maybe consider the next time someone wants to know where the money is, take a good hard look at the place you wheel next time. Take a few pictures and create a scrap book, because if organizations like SFWDA don't get involved that is all you will have. I know the money we all have donated to this cause is perceived as a lot, it is a drop in the bucket to organizations like SELC and TU. I have not heard of anyone dropping a 100K on SFWDA, just because it is a great cause and a tax write off. SELC and TU are extremely well funded and politically befriended organizations. The only thing we can do as common voice is fight for our rights. It is alright to be shocked and mad, just direct it at the goal. I can tell you that Marisue Hilliard sat at her meeting with TU and SELC and they had a party"DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!" Her position is political and she is a politician. She thinks she needs there alliance to make advancement. Hopefully, we can change that view and she ends up being moved to some obscure corner of the world and forgotten about by the FS, because of her decisions. It is not over, it's a set back...pull yourself up by your boot straps and lets get back in there for round#3.
Call Heath Schulers Office and Rep . John Snow and any other politician you can think of in any other state. The politicians are aware of this situation in Washington DC and we need to force them to get involved.

Reading the comments on SFWDA, I have to say I'm flippin out. There are several stages of grief, starts with denial, moves to hope, Anger then to acceptance. The point is that the ANGER is pointed at the wrong people. The people that are being questioned are the only people that has stepped up to the challenge to keep Tellico open. These people are not spending your donations on parties. It is going to save something that is important to all of you. If we had to fight individually for something like Tellico OHV, it would have been off the map a long time ago. Something else to maybe consider the next time someone wants to know where the money is, take a good hard look at the place you wheel next time. Take a few pictures and create a scrap book, because if organizations like SFWDA don't get involved that is all you will have. I know the money we all have donated to this cause is perceived as a lot, it is a drop in the bucket to organizations like SELC and TU. I have not heard of anyone dropping a 100K on SFWDA, just because it is a great cause and a tax write off. SELC and TU are extremely well funded and politically befriended organizations. The only thing we can do as common voice is fight for our rights. It is alright to be shocked and mad, just direct it at the goal. I can tell you that Marisue Hilliard sat at her meeting with TU and SELC and they had a party"DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!" Her position is political and she is a politician. She thinks she needs there alliance to make advancement. Hopefully, we can change that view and she ends up being moved to some obscure corner of the world and forgotten about by the FS, because of her decisions. It is not over, it's a set back...pull yourself up by your boot straps and lets get back in there for round#3.
Call Heath Schulers Office and Rep . John Snow and any other politician you can think of in any other state. The politicians are aware of this situation in Washington DC and we need to force them to get involved.


Well said. You're right. It's time we stepped up our game and go to the ones that have more political pull. Then again, everyone knows which way most politicians lean...to the money. That is why I think we need to make some efforts to join forces with others.

Heath is an old UT boy and I think I know some of his old class mates. Maybe they can get him to look into this a little.