Are there any (or will there be any) rules against altering the KOH course by the spectators? I ask this because I saw it happen and believe that it had at least some significant impact on the race. Before the first car came through I watched someone severely dig out the ledge at the plaques. They didn't just move a few rocks, they moved A LOT OF ROCKS leaving a nasty undercut that would swallow a 42" tire. As a result, I feel that a number of things occurred during the race that would not have otherwise. I say this because I watched several non-comp rigs come up the ledge the day before with minimal difficulty.

Here is the ledge on Thursday afternoon. I'm going to assume that those are 37's on the JK and they are clearly above the ledge (rear tire):
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0293.jpg


Here is the ledge on Friday. I will assume that those are 40's and they are certainly below the ledge:
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0419.jpg



I think it is safe to say that at least some of the incidents below would not have happened if the ledge had not been altered by spectators:


Jason Sherer rolled (changing his several minute lead over Randy Slawson to a several second lead)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0390.jpg


Rick Mooneyham broke a front right axle shaft (forcing him to winch up and allowing Casey Currie to catch him)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0412.jpg


Rob McKinney rolled
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0425.jpg


Brad Lovell rolled
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0435.jpg


Jack Adams broke a front right axle shaft on the undercut (allowing Adam Woodlee to drive right by)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0440.jpg


Wayne Israelsen was hung up on the ledge allowing Drew Burroughs to pass him (who then rolled on the ledge but was righted and maintained his lead over Wayne) (no pic)


Will Carter rolled (allowing the now infamous pass by Shannon Campbell and then another pass while Will was still on his side by Eric Holder)
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0461.jpg


Hobie Smith had a very difficult time with the ledge allowing Roger Lovell to eventually catch up and pass (no pic)


Eric Anderson took the right hand line around the undercut allowing Brian Shirley to pass him on the left.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0479.jpg


Brian Shirley used big throttle to bump up the ledge and landed hard losing his steering. He was blocking the trail for at least 15 minutes holding back Eric who he had just passed on the ledge. (no pic but you can see Shirley blocking in the pic below)


Eric Anderson then tried the left line again and John James pulled up beside and passed Eric.
http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/knscott549/IMG_0478.jpg


While waiting for Shirley to get his rig moving Bender walked up and began filling the huge hole. I assume that he instantly realized that it had been "modified". I know that spectator course modification regularly occurs at Baja but I wasn't sure what the policy is (or will be) at KOH.

My hats off to those that UN-STACKED the trails! That's the way it should be. Nobody likes wheeling on paved roads anyway. :flipoff2:

I wondered what the hell had happened! I had just run that the afternoon before trying the new shoes and we popped right up. I just figured my ARB was dead and I was retarded!

Oh well, thats racing.:smokin:

Rick.

Thanks for that awesome documentation of all the good shit that happened there on Sledge. I love it!!! I wish more trails were unstacked.

I hope the plaque was reattached to the rock...

would be cool to identify who did it, if something was actually done

PBB could have fun with something like that

It's the fuckin hammers...get over it. I went up it Thursday night. My memory is a little unclear as to the overall condition but there was a rig coming down with no rear drive, a dead winch and a flat 54" bogger on the front (it was not the cocaroach, as my wife calls it), so more or less one wheel drive. I winched him down one drop and then carried on my way. It's possible it could have been dug out by him, but it doesn't matter, It's the nature of those trails they change every year and with as much traffic as they saw that week; daily.

I was on sledge and wathched all of the incidents in your post. It made for some good carnage. You could see the drivers roll up and look at it like wtf happend. The ones that did same line as the day before ended up there lids.

I could see a few 'tards just digging that out with their tires trying to climb it.

doesn't mean it was SABOTAGED, and even if it was at least it was the same for everybody, so you can't say it only affected certain racers. Some took the line, some went around.

It's not like they were digging pits where no one would see them at high speed.

who ever did that unstacking should start designing courses. they did a great job. boobie traps!!!

It seems like it was there for everyone, Which in turn seems fine to me...

:handclap:

I could see a few 'tards just digging that out with their tires trying to climb it.

doesn't mean it was SABOTAGED, and even if it was at least it was the same for everybody, so you can't say it only affected certain racers. Some took the line, some went around.

It's not like they were digging pits where no one would see them at high speed.

I watched as it was initially dug out by hand, not by tires. However, it certainly got worse as the day went on because everyone was having so much trouble and therefore throwing a lot of rocks. And you are absolutely right, it was done before the race so it effected everyone evenly. And yes, there is no denying that it made for a kick ass day of action!

Two things very important to this issue.

You're out of your gord if you think we'll be regulating what the spectators do. Hell, our own kids dug the first booby trap at the hammers at the start line last year.:flipoff2:


Second and much more important. We had a clean up crew (Rockstomper Scott, Dirty V, Camp, and I'm sure others) that cleaned up the beer cans left behind:rolleyes: and restacked the ledge so that it's passable by mere mortals.

Dave

Second and much more important. We had a clean up crew (Rockstomper Scott, Dirty V, Camp, and I'm sure others) that cleaned up the beer cans left behind:rolleyes: and restacked the ledge so that it's passable by mere mortals.

Dave

When I rolled up to it on Sunday it looked like Masada (heavily stacked ramp.)
Me and my 35's drove right up it, I don't know why the racers had so much trouble with it...

:flipoff2:

Thanks for that awesome documentation of all the good shit that happened there on Sledge. I love it!!! I wish more trails were unstacked.

I hope the plaque was reattached to the rock...

I have video of the dude that ended up with the plaque but no pics. Nobody knew where it went at first but he got everyone's attention and held it up, swearing that he would return it to the right people so that it could be attached. He seemed like an honest dude and I'm sure he will do the right thing despite the fact that he was already getting some temping offers...

When I first heard what happened at the plaque slab my thought was, "That's total bullshit"

But really that's no different than the booby traps in Baja that are accepted and almost encouraged.


I'm just bummed for the volunteers that had to restore that spot on Sat like the race had never happened. I'm sure they wish they had a bunch of drunken assholes with lots of energy ready to undo what they did.

I caught Camo building a boobie trap.I know it's only 5 inches high,but damn someone could have got hurt:flipoff2::laughing:
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/jackspics_2007/camoboobietrap.jpg

That line is always changing depending on the last group through it and the type of rigs they were driving. A couple of weeks before the race you could not even see that ledge and I drove it without locking the diffs. What happens happens as long as spectators are not changing it during the race.

When I first heard what happened at the plaque slab my thought was, "That's total bullshit"

But really that's no different than the booby traps in Baja that are accepted and almost encouraged.



I have no problem with the unstacking of the plaque rock, in fact I love how it was an unexpected obstacle for ALL the competitors.

Now the booby traps in Baja, they can be a real danger, and I wish that "tradition" had never started.

would be cool to identify who did it, if something was actually done

PBB could have fun with something like that

The WARTHOG in the LCQ on those damn 54's :flipoff2:








:laughing:

Scotty, you live in C'dale? I'm originally from M'boro.

Anyway...the hammers change so drastically due to weather and by a few vehicles. It doesnt matter if some rocks were removed or stacked. Those buggies did LOTS of carving out and made for a very kick ass day. I have more of a problem with the jackasses that left their beer bottles and cans behind. oh well....more beer money for me by recycling it.

When we ran the trail on Sat night, the plaque was attached and the ledge had been restacked. Everything was wonderful. Thanks to those volunteers that put it back the way it was.

I thought that big assed ledge during the race was cool.

( shrug ) no matter..... I was one of the last cars through it in the race. Watched Egan and Graff fight with it for about 20 min than took a couple trys to find a line than I Drove right up it. besides there where things alot worse on the course. typically it a one shot but this race is not suppose to be easy.

Kinda made a more level playin field for the teams that practiced and the ones that didnt.

:handclap:

In my frame of reference, if Big Rich approves,

/thread.

Kinda made a more level playin field for the teams that practiced and the ones that didnt.

Although it did add another back up to the course.
We had plenty of them....

I had no problem with it. I did wonder how the hell I got a sammy on 33s through there a couple weeks ago.

wayne

When we ran the trail on Sat night, the plaque was attached and the ledge had been restacked.

When we ran it Sunday morning it was still stacked, but the plaque was gone... :(

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3327169128_8aa54d230a.jpg

When we ran the trail on Sat night, the plaque was attached and the ledge had been restacked. Everything was wonderful. Thanks to those volunteers that put it back the way it was.

Thanks. We got a fair bit of grief for doing it on Saturday morning from a few competitors and chase crews, that it should be left tough, but we were asked by Dave to go put it back to trail-ride-able condition because Sledge isn't supposed to be one of the extreme trails.
At the risk of "outing" them... Saturday's Sledge roadpaving crew:
Camp, YJGirl, Krcruiser, Jstarnes, myself, Richard (not on here), and a couple of Arizona guys whose names I didn't catch.

I would like to "out" whoever's underwear I brought home from Sledge in my trashbag, though. :mad3:

At the risk of "outing" them... Saturday's Sledge roadpaving crew:
Camp, YJGirl, Krcruiser, Jstarnes, myself, Richard (not on here), and a couple of Arizona guys whose names I didn't catch.

Man, you guys did a helluva job there. On Sunday I made it up the ledge without even thinking about it, and it was only after I got out and really looked that I realized it was even the same obstacle. :laughing: That was a shitload of rocks to move!

:beer:

The spectators were just trying to rebuild the water bar to ensure no silt made it to Tahoe. :flipoff2:

I filled up my soft sided cooler with every can and plastic bottle I saw unattended on the way out of sledge. I left when Eric and John where at the plaque.

Man, you guys did a helluva job there. On Sunday I made it up the ledge without even thinking about it, and it was only after I got out and really looked that I realized it was even the same obstacle. :laughing: That was a shitload of rocks to move!

:beer:

I almost always spend the time to unstack trails as I run them so, it felt really strange to be sent in to stack one. They generally bring me for the heavy tasks,....you know......strong back and a weak mind :D

i think high traffic and lead footed competitors waller'd out that ledge, i don't think that there was any malice intended by anyone, before/during the race..this is a public set of trails......that's is how it is supposed to be....

shit...why not go back and pour up some quick 'crete......

I think the club that started all this. Victor Valley 4x4 (sorry if I butchered that) was concerned that 100 rigs on 40s would change a trail they had spent many hard hours building for full bodied Jeeps to run on 33s or 35s. Dave asked for it to be filled back to that status out of respect for their concern. IF i recall correctly

Sledge is the warm up trail it should not be the hardest one in the system hasn't been for years. Go run FOH or Bender alley if that is what you are looking for.

I agree the stacking sucks when unprepared rigs try a trail that they have no buisness on.

wayne

i think high traffic and lead footed competitors waller'd out that ledge, i don't think that there was any malice intended by anyone, before/during the race..this is a public set of trails......that's is how it is supposed to be....

shit...why not go back and pour up some quick 'crete......

I agree that it was probably heavy (and fast) traffic that did it, not malice or anything like that.

As for the quickrete, the trails are dynamic, and will continue to be so; what we did has assuredly already been changed, and there aren't any rocks in that pile that took more than one person to move (though there are rocks in there that *I* can't move). For all I know, somebody could've gone out there Sunday morning and thrown all those rocks down the hill, and if so, that's life.

The whole idea to us going back and restacking that pile (and it was a large stacked pile the last time I went up Sledge previous to race week) was to leave the course in at least as good of condition as it was prior to the race, in the hopes of not wearing out our welcome in the area.

i was blown away when my rig would climb that ledge. i felt really dumb, i had never been hung up there before. and i dont mind the unstacking, but i could see it getting out of hand in future races if it becomes "the thing to do". and it seems this thread encourages it.

next thing you know, some idiots are going to bring their hi lift and start rolling boulders down into the middle of the trail making them impassible or perhaps killing someone in the process.

if i were the promoters i would discourage it and hope the spectators dont get out of control, like a mob usually does

what some of you need to remember is the hammers are a public place of wheeling. yeah, its not for your grandma's subaru to drive up :laughing: (camp) but it is for people to enjoy.

you will destroy the hammers and the point of going out there if you try and make every trail out there something that only a buggy on 42"s can make it up. most of us average guys don't have that kinda coin.

you guys that want the buggy trails, you have them out there too.

I can't thank enough what the rockstomper crew and everyone else did on saturday. I wish my rig could have gone to help them out.

if we as racers/promoters go out and just thrash the place without any concern of how it was when we got there, we won't be allowed back.

my bigger bitch is the fact that the guys had to pick up so much trash out there. that's my reason for not wanting a single spectator on the trail during the race. you spectators that left your cans and plastic behind, you lazy fucks. you made guys that RACED the day before and their PIT crews come behind you and clean up because you are to lazy to carry out what you carried in. :rolleyes:

and for those that picks up their stuff and brought it back out, thank you for doing what you did to help keep the area clean and open.

my bigger bitch is the fact that the guys had to pick up so much trash out there. that's my reason for not wanting a single spectator on the trail during the race.

i was really surprised by this. i figure all the spectators who go that far out to the desert know that we are trying to keep the place open and then they leave trash on a rock trail? that makes no sense to me. who do they think is going to clean up?

FYI...whoever picked up the plaque contacted the Victor Valley 4 Wheelers and is returning it to them. Very nice!

i was really surprised by this. i figure all the spectators who go that far out to the desert know that we are trying to keep the place open and then they leave trash on a rock trail? that makes no sense to me. who do they think is going to clean up?

In all fairness to the spectators this past weekend, the trash we picked up was surprisingly (to me, anyway) minimal. Local areas around here, routinely, we'll haul off multiple trashbags of stuff, and we might've actually filled one kitchen-size trashbag on Sledge (spread over four garbage-can size bags, it looked like relatively little trash to me). The underwear that I got had clearly been there a while. Most of the trash was general debris, it's not like we hauled out a mountain of water bottles or the like.

With that in mind, I'd actually like to thank the spectators on Sledge (from the videos, there were a lot of ya) for policing their own as well as they did; I've seen a lot worse, from far fewer people, in less time, all too often in the past.

Who has the plack...have them call me so I can put it back

Good job on restacking the thing for mortals. I was on the first few fun in the desert runs with VV4W when there were only 2 trails, Sledge and Aftershock. We stacked what we needed to back then. I had an 85 CJ-7 with a 4 popper, manual steering, mismatched 33's, 3.55's and a rear locker in my AMC 20. Wow, those were the days!

I agree that it was probably heavy (and fast) traffic that did it, not malice or anything like that.


Just to set the record straight, I can assure you with 100% confidence that the obstacle was modified by hand with the intent of increasing the action for spectators. I was directly across the valley from the dudes that did it. I heard their conversations beforehand and then saw them spend 30 minutes moving rocks. After that we listened to them laugh, scream, and yell with joy when the rigs came through and began having so much trouble. When one of the competitors moved a few rocks back into the hole the guys came back down and moved em back out. I'm not saying that it is right or wrong, my question when starting this thread was simply is this OK or not and Dave answered that question directly at the beginning of the thread. After all, the modification was done before the first rig came through so every competitor had to deal with it equally. Also, I have to say that it made my day (and everyone else's) much more exciting because it turned what would have been a routine rock trail into a nearly impassible obstacle for some. It was non-stop action all day. Again, I'm not saying that it was right or wrong but the course was intentionally modified by spectators and it did have a significant impact on the race.

Also, thank you to those that cleaned up on Saturday. It is a shame that people don't respect the "carry out what you carry in rule". We obeyed and also picked up every can and wrapper that we walked past on our way out just like any respectable 4 wheeler would.

Who has the plack...have them call me so I can put it back
IIRC dave ended up with it and its on its way back to VV4W

Thanks. We got a fair bit of grief for doing it on Saturday morning from a few competitors and chase crews, that it should be left tough, but we were asked by Dave to go put it back to trail-ride-able condition because Sledge isn't supposed to be one of the extreme trails.
At the risk of "outing" them... Saturday's Sledge roadpaving crew:
Camp, YJGirl, Krcruiser, Jstarnes, myself, Richard (not on here), and a couple of Arizona guys whose names I didn't catch.

I would like to "out" whoever's underwear I brought home from Sledge in my trashbag, though. :mad3:


Those wouldn't have been Ralph Lauren or some shit like that HOMO chonies would they? I saw a pair a little ways down from the plaque on sledge.:shaking:

Who has the plack...have them call me so I can put it back

IIRC dave ended up with it and its on its way back to VV4W


The quote below is from the first page of this thread.


When we ran the trail on Sat night, the plaque was attached and the ledge had been restacked. Everything was wonderful. Thanks to those volunteers that put it back the way it was.

Sledge is suposed to be one of the easier trails out there?

NO FOH for me!

:D

The quote below is from the first page of this thread.

The quote below is from this page of the thread...

When we ran it Sunday morning it was still stacked, but the plaque was gone... :(

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/3327169128_8aa54d230a.jpg

Those wouldn't have been Ralph Lauren or some shit like that HOMO chonies would they? I saw a pair a little ways down from the plaque on sledge.:shaking:

As a matter of fact... :laughing:

Just to set the record straight, I can assure you with 100% confidence that the obstacle was modified by hand with the intent of increasing the action for spectators. I was directly across the valley from the dudes that did it.

I stand corrected. If I only had a nickel for everything I've been wrong about, I might be ready to retire by now. :eek:

It was first cleaned out by hand but dug a whole lot deeper by tire. It got a lot worse through out the day than it was when we rolled Jason's rig back on it's wheels.

Stacking is :rainbow: and so is re-stacking. Whatever happens to a trail, happens. Some become more difficult, some become very easy, it will happen naturally. We don't drive around after the rains eroded some trails and fill in others and stack rocks on the eroded ones and then dig out the filled in trails.:shaking: If a waterfall used to be 8 feet and over the course of a few months from rain became 12 feet, you don't go and stack 4' of rock to make it the "same".:rolleyes:

If this truly is a desert race and a rock race, you atleast need to have a few rock obstacles. Seems they were going down all the good stuff, except for the "new-to-the-day" obstacle on Sledge. Anyone can drive down those trails, lets see more driving UP obstacles that way it truly is a desert/rock race.

Stacking is :rainbow: and so is re-stacking. Whatever happens to a trail, happens. Some become more difficult, some become very easy, it will happen naturally. We don't drive around after the rains eroded some trails and fill in others and stack rocks on the eroded ones and then dig out the filled in trails.:shaking: If a waterfall used to be 8 feet and over the course of a few months from rain became 12 feet, you don't go and stack 4' of rock to make it the "same".:rolleyes:

If this truly is a desert race and a rock race, you atleast need to have a few rock obstacles. Seems they were going down all the good stuff, except for the "new-to-the-day" obstacle on Sledge. Anyone can drive down those trails, lets see more driving UP obstacles that way it truly is a desert/rock race.

You can't run Jack without going up 1 direction, so that's 1 part they ran up. It's obvious from the pics they ran up Sledge. They ran up Sunbonnet, Balderdash and Claw.

Suppose I send you a map and you lay out a course that has everyone run all the trails up so we truly have a race? While you're doing that, don't forget to keep the course from overlapping itself with two way race traffic.

This should be fun.

You can't run Jack without going up 1 direction, so that's 1 part they ran up. It's obvious from the pics they ran up Sledge. They ran up Sunbonnet, Balderdash and Claw.

Suppose I send you a map and you lay out a course that has everyone run all the trails up so we truly have a race? While you're doing that, don't forget to keep the course from overlapping itself with two way race traffic.

This should be fun.

I said they should run up some more diffuicult rock stuff, not run up everything:shaking: I've never been out there, and the LCQ was the best rock action I saw. If the new obstacle had not been made, it would have been pretty boring in the rocks. Sure driving down stuff is cool, I love driving down stuff, but atleast drive up as many difficult obstacles as down. That is all.

Shhhhhh, when theydontstop raced, it was up hill both ways in 6 ft of snow on nothing but bare rims

I've never been out there

There is your answer.

Blaine said it perfectly. Lay out a course that makes you happy and then submit it to the powers that be. Oh, and don't make it the same as the last three years of courses...each one was different.

Good luck with that.

Suppose I send you a map and you lay out a course that has everyone run all the trails up so we truly have a race? While you're doing that, don't forget to keep the course from overlapping itself with two way race traffic.

This should be fun.

Oh come on!!! Figure 8 rock racing would be something to see!!!!!!!:flipoff2:

There is your answer.

Blaine said it perfectly. Lay out a course that makes you happy and then submit it to the powers that be. Oh, and don't make it the same as the last three years of courses...each one was different.

Good luck with that.

Better yet, promote your own race, cause Dave is dying to enter it! :flipoff2:

Oh come on!!! Figure 8 rock racing would be something to see!!!!!!!:flipoff2:

dave and jeff did such a good job this year. i saw the map and i saw lines everywhere, and i couldnt believe the race never crossed itself

I said they should run up some more diffuicult rock stuff, not run up everything:shaking:

There are pics of the last fall on Aftershock in the mistake thread that show a traffic jam on the easiest Trail in JV. The very same trail our crew led during a Tinbender Jambo. The requirements were 33's, 1 locker, and 38 rigs lined up to run it. It's almost an hour to get that many rigs out to it, we left the lakebed at 9, stopped for lunch and were back on the lakebed at 4.

I've never been out there,

That was obvious.


and the LCQ was the best rock action I saw. If the new obstacle had not been made, it would have been pretty boring in the rocks.

Boring? :laughing: They ran most of the Hammers at race speeds and you think that's boring? You're a retard.

Sure driving down stuff is cool, I love driving down stuff, but atleast drive up as many difficult obstacles as down. That is all.

I'd encourage you to quit while you're ahead. I could easily run out to several spots on many of the trails and get up on the side of the canyon with a prybar. I could shove enough big rocks down to make it impasseable and it wouldn't take that long. I mean if you really want to alter the trail to make it more exciting.

Basically if the race wasn't exciting enough for you, maybe you should just hop your ass out here and give us a hand next year. All I did was work a checkpoint and got all the excitement I could handle. Of course, that may be why I'm not being an armchair race promoter either. :flipoff2:

Two things very important to this issue.

You're out of your gord if you think we'll be regulating what the spectators do. Hell, our own kids dug the first booby trap at the hammers at the start line last year.:flipoff2:


Second and much more important. We had a clean up crew (Rockstomper Scott, Dirty V, Camp, and I'm sure others) that cleaned up the beer cans left behind:rolleyes: and restacked the ledge so that it's passable by mere mortals.

Dave


I guess the rock stackers achieved your objective as I found these guys up there in a Subaru around noon on Saturday.


Edit: Hey I just noticed they must be fawking greenies as the license plate is GREEENED out

I hate driving down the trails, it beats you and your rig WAY harder than driving up......That makes it perfect for this race.

We drove down Sledge and up Wrecking Ball last year, makes sence to reverse the order this time.

I guess the rock stackers achieved your objective as I found these guys up there in a Subaru around noon on Saturday.


Edit: Hey I just noticed they must be fawking greenies as the license plate is GREEENED out

Is that Teenwolf on the left just starting to breakout in a new batch of hair? :flipoff2:

For the guy that thinks "re-stacking" sucks, you also point out that trails change naturally. If your reading skills had been up to the task, you might have noticed that this trail was not changed naturally but, by an individual prior to the race. Nobody was interested in making a super highway through there, just returning it to pre-race conditions.:shaking:

I was on sledge hours before the race(pulling a broke rig on 54's and a lock up rear axle with 2 flats off the trail). The ledge was very easy. I also drove Sledge hrs after the race and I was still able to drive the ledge. It was very under cut but that only made for a better climb. I don't think we should be stacking any of the trail at the hammers. It's hard to find hardcore trails anymore. If you can't make a trail go home and build a better rig, don't make a Hwy.

I was on sledge hours before the race(pulling a broke rig on 54's and a lock up rear axle with 2 flats off the trail). The ledge was very easy. I also drove Sledge hrs after the race and I was still able to drive the ledge. It was very under cut but that only made for a better climb. I don't think we should be stacking any of the trail at the hammers. It's hard to find hardcore trails anymore. If you can't make a trail go home and build and better rig, don't make a Hwy.


Must have been the same rig I referred to earlier. He spent the night up there?

I was on sledge hours before the race(pulling a broke rig on 54's and a lock up rear axle with 2 flats off the trail). The ledge was very easy. I also drove Sledge hrs after the race and I was still able to drive the ledge. It was very under cut but that only made for a better climb. I don't think we should be stacking any of the trail at the hammers. It's hard to find hardcore trails anymore. If you can't make a trail go home and build and better rig, don't make a Hwy.

They restacked it because I asked them to.


I asked them to because some of the old timers that I greatly respect asked me to.


They have my respect because they BUILT these trails.

We pulled him off around 2am. He had a plaque that said "Violator" on the back, and a Ram Jet 502:smokin:.
I have no problem with the trail being put back to the way we found it, but it is the Hammers. A jeep on 33's should not be walking up Sledge.

We pulled him off around 2am. He had a plaque that said "Violator" on the back, and a Ram Jet 502:smokin:.
I have no problem with the trail being put back to the way we found it, but it is the Hammers. A jeep on 33's should not be walking up Sledge.

Not to worry, all we did was return it the way it was before the race. We only stacked that ledge back to its original condition and nothing else. And that Subaru is far and beyond a jeep on 33's :flipoff2:

We pulled him off around 2am. He had a plaque that said "Violator" on the back, and a Ram Jet 502:smokin:.
I have no problem with the trail being put back to the way we found it, but it is the Hammers. A jeep on 33's should not be walking up Sledge.

Walking up, maybe not, but should be able to make Sledge without resorting to taking it apart and carrying the pieces to the top in a buggy. At least two such rigs turned around partway up it on Saturday afternoon, after I watched them spend a good bit of time struggling, winching, and fighting, to get *to* the plaque rock.

I suspect that the guys grousing about how restacking Sledge turned it into a paved interstate, haven't seen it post-pave-job... we didn't make it easy. Passable for an excellent driver with good equipment sitting on 35's, sure, but even after we "paved" it, guys on 39's were still struggling in places.

There are pics of the last fall on Aftershock in the mistake thread that show a traffic jam on the easiest Trail in JV. The very same trail our crew led during a Tinbender Jambo. The requirements were 33's, 1 locker, and 38 rigs lined up to run it. It's almost an hour to get that many rigs out to it, we left the lakebed at 9, stopped for lunch and were back on the lakebed at 4.

That was obvious.

Boring? :laughing: They ran most of the Hammers at race speeds and you think that's boring? You're a retard.

I'd encourage you to quit while you're ahead. I could easily run out to several spots on many of the trails and get up on the side of the canyon with a prybar. I could shove enough big rocks down to make it impasseable and it wouldn't take that long. I mean if you really want to alter the trail to make it more exciting.

Basically if the race wasn't exciting enough for you, maybe you should just hop your ass out here and give us a hand next year. All I did was work a checkpoint and got all the excitement I could handle. Of course, that may be why I'm not being an armchair race promoter either. :flipoff2:

I never said the race sucked, learn to read and get off your high horse. Actually I though it was quite badass, just making a suggestion that it would be cool to see more difficult rock action. I said the rock action compared to the LCQ was not as exciting. By saying there was a traffic jamb on a trail that you deem "easy" is indeed that, easy. That tells me that teams were having a hard time driving through "easy" trails. It would be cool to see who really can get it on in some "hard" trails AND desert. Last I checked, the name of the race was King of the Hammers, not who can drive the fastest across the desert, that's only part of this race, or you can go race in the BITD series. Still a badass race, just constructive criticism for an even better race next year.

As for running rocks at race speed, I didn't say it was boring. Relatively speaking it was not as exciting compared to the LCQ. We have our own little version of this in AZ in our club consisting of running 16 trails and ~44 miles, no frill, just for kicks and bragging rights and I love running it.

If you need more clarification, let me know and I'll be happy to clarify.


For the guy that thinks "re-stacking" sucks, you also point out that trails change naturally. If your reading skills had been up to the task, you might have noticed that this trail was not changed naturally but, by an individual prior to the race. Nobody was interested in making a super highway through there, just returning it to pre-race conditions.:shaking:

"Re-stacking" huh, so you're saying it was "stacked" before? Did you run Sledge saturday or sunday? Actually, there was a full bodied cherokee with open diffs(might have had a rear locker but it was a D35) on 33's and they were working on paving that bitch into a super highway. When we went through, they were pulled to the side and stacking the ledge into a ramp, not a ledge.

I was on sledge hours before the race(pulling a broke rig on 54's and a lock up rear axle with 2 flats off the trail). The ledge was very easy. I also drove Sledge hrs after the race and I was still able to drive the ledge. It was very under cut but that only made for a better climb. I don't think we should be stacking any of the trail at the hammers. It's hard to find hardcore trails anymore. If you can't make a trail go home and build and better rig, don't make a Hwy.

Well said.

"Re-stacking" huh, so you're saying it was "stacked" before? Did you run Sledge saturday or sunday? Actually, there was a full bodied cherokee with open diffs(might have had a rear locker but it was a D35) on 33's and they were paving that bitch into a super highway. When we went through, they were pulled to the side and stacking the ledge into a ramp, not a ledge.


Ah, you must be talking about the bent tie rod Cherokee that I personally pushed the front end over on to get out of the trail. I was the one restacking and no, it is not a Super Highway, there is still a ledge there but, nice try. :shaking:

We pulled him off around 2am. He had a plaque that said "Violator" on the back, and a Ram Jet 502:smokin:.
I have no problem with the trail being put back to the way we found it, but it is the Hammers. A jeep on 33's should not be walking up Sledge.

Wow, I winched him down a section probably around 10:00 or so, towards the bottom, he must not have made it too far. Only had one flat at that time. He had a rough week. I watched him lose a tire, trying to get to the wall at back door on wenesday night.

They restacked it because I asked them to.


I asked them to because some of the old timers that I greatly respect asked me to.


They have my respect because they BUILT these trails.

Did anyone read this post??

I high lighted the most important part.

I never said the race sucked, learn to read and get off your high horse. Actually I though it was quite badass, just making a suggestion that it would be cool to see more difficult rock action. I said the rock action compared to the LCQ was not as exciting. By saying there was a traffic jamb on a trail that you deem "easy" is indeed that, easy. That tells me that teams were having a hard time driving through "easy" trails. It would be cool to see who really can get it on in some "hard" trails AND desert. Last I checked, the name of the race was King of the Hammers, not who can drive the fastest across the desert, that's only part of this race, or you can go race in the BITD series. Still a badass race, just constructive criticism for an even better race next year.

As for running rocks at race speed, I didn't say it was boring. Relatively speaking it was not as exciting compared to the LCQ. We have our own little version of this in AZ in our club consisting of running 16 trails and ~44 miles, no frill, just for kicks and bragging rights and I love running it.

If you need more clarification, let me know and I'll be happy to clarify.

Perhaps you should have started out a bit more clear.

"Re-stacking" huh, so you're saying it was "stacked" before? Did you run Sledge saturday or sunday? Actually, there was a full bodied cherokee with open diffs(might have had a rear locker but it was a D35) on 33's and they were working on paving that bitch into a super highway. When we went through, they were pulled to the side and stacking the ledge into a ramp, not a ledge.

Of course it was "stacked", how do you think that trail got built?

No worries on the ramp, it will last all of about 3.5 seconds before some "hold my beer and watch this" wonderful line picker comes flailing through there and kicks all the rocks back downhill.

Did anyone read this post??

I high lighted the most important part.

Didn't have to. Dave informed all of us volunteers about it months ago.

Wow, I winched him down a section probably around 10:00 or so, towards the bottom, he must not have made it too far. Only had one flat at that time. He had a rough week. I watched him lose a tire, trying to get to the wall at back door on wenesday night.No kidding wow!...I didn't know it took him that long to get out. I was riding shotgun in Garrett in his red caged "full size jeep" on rocks. We went past and gave him (teal jeep on rocks) a tug when he got hung up as best we could and then continued on. Then Garrett ran out of gas by the mailbox and got to use his new race radio to call for help:flipoff2:

That undercut sure wasn't small when we went past.

No kidding wow!...I didn't know it took him that long to get out. I was riding shotgun in Garrett in his red caged "full size jeep" on rocks. We went past and gave him (teal jeep on rocks) a tug when he got hung up as best we could and then continued on. Then Garrett ran out of gas by the mailbox and got to use his new race radio to call for help:flipoff2:

That undercut sure wasn't small when we went past.


No way, I was the FJ 40 that came up on you guys, tugged you back when you were stuck and then blew by you guys at the mailbox :flipoff2:

Thanks for the a road sodas by the way :beer:

In all fairness to the spectators this past weekend, the trash we picked up was surprisingly (to me, anyway) minimal. Local areas around here, routinely, we'll haul off multiple trashbags of stuff, and we might've actually filled one kitchen-size trashbag on Sledge (spread over four garbage-can size bags, it looked like relatively little trash to me). The underwear that I got had clearly been there a while. Most of the trash was general debris, it's not like we hauled out a mountain of water bottles or the like.

With that in mind, I'd actually like to thank the spectators on Sledge (from the videos, there were a lot of ya) for policing their own as well as they did; I've seen a lot worse, from far fewer people, in less time, all too often in the past.

I was volunteering at Check 7 and ended up in the canyon for a better part of the race. I'm glad to know the guy with the plaque was giving it back, the impression i got when I was asking around for it was nobody wanted to say who exactly it was...which worried me. Good to know its going back.

As far as trash on sledge...as soon as the last racers were coming through, a friend and i went around with 2 garden trash bags picking up any and everything we could find on the length of sledge, as well as all over the hillside at the ledge. We ended up hauling out roughly one full lawn waste bag of bottles, cans, franzia boxes and misc vehicle parts. I've seen places worse, but it wasn't what i would call clean. Theres always some trash on the trails and we always make a point to try to clean it up as best we can when we wheel there.

As far as the stacking/unstacking...i think the way it was handled was just fine. I like being able to run "easier" trails at the hammers, and sledge is one of them. If you have to stack to get through, oh well, it will get changed again after a rig or two.

If you have to stack to get through, oh well, it will get changed again after a rig or two.

If you have to stack, you should return the trail to it's original condition(unstack what you stacked) after you pass:shaking:

Ya i wasn't thinking, thats a better way to put it...

If you have to stack, you should return the trail to it's original condition(unstack what you stacked) after you pass:shaking:

Well, in that case, we all need to kick in and put it back to it's original condition of being able to be run by the 33" tired monster rigs owned by those who built those trails.

And if I'm behind you when you kick a few rocks down the trail, should I ask you to move them back to keep the trail original?

Well, in that case, we all need to kick in and put it back to it's original condition of being able to be run by the 33" tired monster rigs owned by those who built those trails.

Please refer to my original statement of trails naturally changing. More rigs through a trail usually make the trail more difficult in that type of terrain. It's a progression, much like the way rigs are built now as opposed to 10 years ago.

And if I'm behind you when you kick a few rocks down the trail, should I ask you to move them back to keep the trail original?

Really? Did you even have a thought process when you typed this? Please refer to my statement above as to why this happens. Driving up a trail and it shifting/moving/getting dug out is all part of running a trail, it happens, get over it. That doesn't mean you go and re-stack it:shaking: Since you want to be so literal(with no disrespect to the people who opened these trails so you don't start bitching about that), and since these trails were "made", then wouldn't removing rocks return it back to it's natural condition then? Do you want to keep going? It's quite simple I think, if you stack a rock(s), then un-stack, what's so hard to comprehend here?

Do you want to keep going? It's quite simple I think, if you stack a rock(s), then un-stack, what's so hard to comprehend here?

What's so hard for you to comprehend?

At the end of the day, the race significantly altered the trails and we were asked to repair them to a somewhat passable condition. That's all that really matters.