Was HP a big part of winning KOH this year? or would decent non part breaking HP and really good/tuned suspension be enough?

Smaller motor less over heating issues and less chance of breaking parts left right an center.

Something between a ftoy and a LS* HP... 220-300hp.

tuned suspension either way. but i bet the top 5 guys had big LS motors for sure. from what i saw, 300hp or more is a must to have a shot at winning depending on how heavy the rig is.

but me and john both paced some LS motors on the flats with our 22r's...go figure:laughing:

I have a mild 350 that may be around 325 hp, and I felt completely out gunned the entire time. There are a few other factors, though. I have an sm465 manual tranny that is s l o w shifting, my gearing is not optimally matched to be in my power band, and there is almost no low rpm power. Plus, my rig is pretty heavy...

Funny thing is, when I'm trail riding at the Hammers, I feel like the top dawg with the baddest motor and suspension. At KOH, it felt like I took an '84 Honda POS to the drag strip:laughing:

Power is definately one of the things we'll be changing for next year!

Suspension is most important. After that I'd say HP and gearing are equally as important. If you only have enough power to go 90mph, but you're geared to go 150mph you'll have a hard time staying in your power band. If you don't have much power make the most of it by gearing low.

Hi HP numbers aren't the only thing to consider. Power to weight play's a huge role. A light rig with good gearing and motor that puts out good power for its size would be :smokin: But you all already know that.

Bone stock 5.3 and a light rig was what I ran. I got passed a few times in the desert but mostly I was doing the passing. The months of shock tuning were a much bigger factor. I never wanted for more power did not break any axles or drive train parts but had enough for the big sand hills and everything but the hard rock trails in high range.

I think too much power was a detriment to some rigs.

wayne

We ran to finish, not shooting for top 10 (ftoy, non tuneable shocks)

We got passed in the desert early, but Id estimate 1/2 those rigs we passed later broken/overheated/stuck/on fire (sorry man, thats just hurts).

Could we have run faster overall, especially in whoop sections with what we had, absolutely. But again, not finishing, but making better time wasnt worth it to us, we played it safe, and beat 70% of the vehicles running.

Would I have run faster with tuned shocks, yes.

Also passed a couple rigs in aftershock, and probably 4-6 at the end of aftershock. A couple in sunbonnet, then 6+ at the top of Sunbonnet going around a busted rigs traffic jam up an untouched hill.

Motor (all 100 hamsters) would have been nice with more across Melville, but tuned suspension would have matters a TON more. We never once had to retry any sand hills or loose climbs. Now having said that, Id say more shock would have allowed more power to become useful.

Now having said that, Id say more shock would have allowed more power to become useful.

I find this pretty interesting.

Out of curiosity - what shocks were you guys running? I know you said it's an F-toy (leaf springs et al) but good shocks can certainly make up some of the differences.

The reason I'm listening to this debate, is I drove my XJ (what's left of it, anyway) to the gas station 10 miles away from Boone Rd, the one you get to if you turn left off the dirt. With 190 HP, 4.56 in the axles, and 38.5 tires I was lucky to hold 60 MPH on rt. 247 if it wasn't perfectly flat or downhill. That was in 4th gear at 3500 RPM. Shooting across the desert I kept it in low range, which with overdrive tops me out at around 65 MPH in 5th gear at the rev limiter. I could run it up to there, and did out on Melville Lake, but I wouldn't want to do that during a race.

Point being - I'd be interested in seeing some kind of chart showing the HP and top speed of everyone who finished...I'm thinkin that well over 300 HP is necessary if you're gonna be hitting the desert at any kind of high speed. Even in neutral I could feel my 38.5s dragging at 10 PSI through the sand. I'd also go as far to say that having more power available would help with fuel economy too.

During the whoop sections I could only reach about 35-45 MPH before it got horrible, but my rig ain't really set up for that stuff. With the best shocks in the world I don't think I'd be able to get more than 60 MPH without any engine upgrades, maybe less depending on how much drag the sand was providing at any given point.

Just a few observations from an average joe.

5150 bilsteins, 10 psi, 37's. Shock tuning, and reservoirs would have let us have shocks after the 20-30 mile mark, and kept the suspension much happier.

FWIW, we never hit 4th (3rd pulls better) and hit 67mph GPS'd prerunning. Im certain (longer distance with foot on the floor) we ran faster during the race. In the whoops we could have run harder, and beat the car more, and ourselves. With tuned shocks, we could have run faster without beating the car or ourselves.

I find this pretty interesting.

Out of curiosity - what shocks were you guys running? I know you said it's an F-toy (leaf springs et al) but good shocks can certainly make up some of the differences.

I'm 400 HP with an LS1 runing 42's, car was 4200 lbs. More motor would have made a huge difference. Think of how many times you slow down and speed up in that race. You can flat out manipulate the car better with more power. Mello's "Producer" motor in his buggy just flat gets it. You can make a lot speed in a short distance.

I'm at approx 380-400hp, and could think of a few spot's an extra 50-100 would have been nice for accelleration, then again 4.88 gears probably didn't help me use everything i had with 40's on.

With 190 HP, 4.56 in the axles, and 38.5 tires I was lucky to hold 60 MPH on rt. 247 if it wasn't perfectly flat or downhill. That was in 4th gear at 3500 RPM. Shooting across the desert I kept it in low range, which with overdrive tops me out at around 65 MPH in 5th gear at the rev limiter. I could run it up to there, and did out on Melville Lake, but I wouldn't want to do that during a race.


10psi and 4.56's will do that... air up and you'll be amazed at the difference... even 4 lbs will change a lot...
Most 4.0 guys on 'big' tires run 5.13's or lower - and I'd bet that'd help you a lot...

I'm at approx 380-400hp, and could think of a few spot's an extra 50-100 would have been nice for accelleration, then again 4.88 gears probably didn't help me use everything i had with 40's on.

Getting power to the ground (gearing) is just as important to this discussion. I think Randy's in the 4.xx range as well, but with a 4spd atlas and OD trans. I imagine Jason S. is in the 5.xx range. and Wayes is 4.88, IIRC. Kevin Y what's your axle ratio?

10psi and 4.56's will do that... air up and you'll be amazed at the difference... even 4 lbs will change a lot...
Most 4.0 guys on 'big' tires run 5.13's or lower - and I'd bet that'd help you a lot...

I agree the axles are a little undergeared - when I was putting this thing together, I got a killer deal on a brand-new CUCV rear which already had the 4.56s ready to go, and since the 5.38s for that axle weren't out yet, I figured I'd regear the front to match and try it out before going any deeper. For 95% of what I use it for it hasn't been an issue.

With the Iroks on (and inflated a little more), I've had no problems in the past getting up to 65-70 mph on the highway. I imagine that's partly due to the narrower contact patch, and in this particular case also due to me living at sea level vs. 2600 ft of elevation at JV.

The other thing...top speed becomes a HP issue in the end. At 3500 RPM I'm very nearly at peak HP on my tired 4.0 anyway. More gearing would have just upped the RPM and maybe squeaked a few more MPH out of it, or I'd be in 5th with the same issue.

I had 150HP and 280 lb of torque. :flipoff2: Top speed was 73 on the lakebed, were pretty sure. HP was not on the top of the list for things I would change. I passed more people in the desert than passed me. We were shocked. I don't think my rig was capeable of anything better than top 10-15 though.

I'm 400 HP with an LS1 runing 42's, car was 4200 lbs. More motor would have made a huge difference. Think of how many times you slow down and speed up in that race. You can flat out manipulate the car better with more power. Mello's "Producer" motor in his buggy just flat gets it. You can make a lot speed in a short distance.
Totally off the subject, but I had to laugh when at first glance I thought you called Mello's motor "Produce Getter"

It's agreed, though, Mello's motor gets it. I need one like that:grinpimp:

Btw Kevin good to see you out there.

IMO: It was acceleration, dependability, and driver talent. In order of importance. I finished third last year knowing I was fast in the rocks and fast enough in the desert, but I lacked acceleration. I come from drag racing, and know a guy that accelrates to 80 faster than a guy that hits 100 total can make his elapsed time faster. The way I saw it, this was lots of short drag races. First one to 50 a hundred times in a row wins. Until dependability kicks in, and dependability relies on talent as well. if you balance it all well, You are Jason Scherer.;)

Otherwise, your 4th.

Easy.

We're sporting a stock TBI350 with maybe 220hp in a rig that has to be close to 5K# when it's on the track and we need to install some more power. We did use our 2:1 low range a lot and that let us squirt out of a lot of the corners way faster but at some point you have to shift into high and even if you stop in a slow spot anyway, you're stopped or going really slow.

We could pick up the pace with more power for sure but there are other places for us to tune also. We lost time on what is really a prep issue, even though the water pump gasket we lost isn't one you would normally prep. We could move faster in the rocks which is a matter of pre-running and just practicing going faster. We could have dumped fuel faster with a dump can or avoided fueling at all with a better idea of our fuel consumption and some tuning on the cell pickup system. We drove a coupe of circles where the course markings and gps got funky, once again a pre-run issue.

But without power it's hard to break torque parts in the rocks and other than having to shift more often I don't know that we give up a lot there. And the suspension is good enough that we didn't have any scary moments in the open either, I'm sure we could have with double the HP.

Reliable and trouble free worked really well for us but there's no way we could have recovered from problems like the really fast guys did. I don't know if anyone had a trouble free race and we were down from the leaders by 2 hours...