I am sharing what I am learning about OHMVR grants. I never read anything about it except here and general awareness of the agency - so just a rookie.

As noted in other threads - the Grant $$$ process is going on right now and needs public comments in support of funding requests by organizations such as Rubicon Trail Foundation that do a much better job of balancing OHV access and environmental concerns than the government and private "close it all" entities.

http://134.186.25.134/User/home.aspx
http://134.186.25.134/admin/ViewAppDocs.aspx?pdfappcode=000825
"The public may provide comment to both the applicant and the OHMVR Division by emailing the contact person listed on the preliminary application and carbon copying (Cc) the OHVMR Division at OHVinfo@parks.ca.gov. The public comment period begins March 3, 2009, and ends April 6, 2009."

The California Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation (OHMVR) Program division includes responsibility for overseeing management of State Vehicular Recreation Areas (SVRAs), statewide planning functions and grant funding for off-highway vehicle (OHV) related activities managed by others.

Simply put - in California, any motorized vehicle is OHV. Roughly, if you have a dirt road on public land - that is an OHV road. If you have dirt - that is an OHV area. The actual definition is “lands, other than a highway, that are open and accessible to the public". Of course having the OHV roads/areas does not mean it has been or will ever be legal for a tire to touch it. OHV is thought of in terms of potential - not actuality (government is an episode of the X-files starring Gomer Pyle - get use to it).

As expected, the politics for the agency are a bit rough and it will be interesting to see how supportive of OHV activity they can be versus just another agency that succumbs to OHV management = closures. In the past they have done some good things for OHV versus the general government attitude toward OHV of GTFO. So I'm optimistic we will get a mixed bag instead of all bad (of course why there should be any bad at all when the anti-OHV groups have a zillion other funding opportunities than OHVMR is another discussion).

I've looked a little at the grants and it looks to me like the majority of $$$ requests are for activities related to law enforcement to ticket OHV, land restoration closed to OHV, gates and signs to close OHV, education to stop OHV, environmental impact of OHV use, ad infinitum, ad nauseam.

The money is split between OHV use and OHV limiting/regulating activities - by far the majority spent on limiting/regulating. A philosophy that leaves no wonder why the $90 mil trust fund vanished and will continue to do so in my opinion if the gov't is left to its own devices.

http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=1164
In 2009, $27.1 million will be available for distribution among four funding categories:
Education and Safety: $ 1,300,000
Law Enforcement: $ 5,200,000
Operations & Maintenance: $13,000,000
Restoration: $ 7,600,000

There are (as always) a lot of regulations but the main ones are at http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/?page_id=25486

The regulations have the definitions of the above categories and how the money is allocated and spent. The $27.1 million does not appear to be allocated correctly according to the regulations. I do not usually bother following that bunny trail because the gov't always has more loopholes and rat holes to manipulate money than I have time to read. But for arguments sake, here are the % and purposes for the $27.1 million if distributed according to the regulations:

Education and Safety: $ 1,300,000 should be 5% = $1,355,000
Law Enforcement: $ 5,200,000 should be 20% = $5,420,000
Operations & Maintenance: $13,000,000 should be 50% = $13,550,000
Restoration: $ 7,600,000 should be 25% = $6,775,000

So money is being taken from the other categories and put towards Restoration. Perhaps an email to them will find out why.

So when all is said and done - the department *might* spend ~15% of their budget on things the many OHV users would like in terms of expansion and maintenance - but it is completely optional and the majority of the budget that is not optional and goes to enforcement/closures/closure restoration/ecological monitoring/education. Most of the budget goes to other governmental agencies.

The rest of the post is pasted from the regulations so you get an idea of how the budget gets spent - note what has to be spent and what is optional to spend. Don't take for granted definition of words - use their documents to look up terms.

Charlie

http://ohv.parks.ca.gov/pages/1140/files/2008regulations.pdf

4970.10. OPERATION AND MAINTENANCE (O&M)
(a) Purpose
Operation and maintenance of Facilities; Conservation; Development; planning; or acquisition associated with the use of OHVs for Recreation or motorized access to non-motorized recreation.
(b) Available Funding
Fifty percent (50%) of the funds appropriated by the Legislature for the Grants program shall be expended for Projects within the O&M category
4970.10.1 Ground Operations (GO)
(a) Purpose
Maintenance and/or Conservation of Facilities; compliance with soil standards and HMP; and protection of natural and/or Cultural Resources.
(b) Available Funding
From the O&M category, at least seventy percent (70%) of the funds will be available for GO Projects.
4970.10.2 Development
(a) Purpose
Construction of, or improvements to, Facilities to sustain or enhance OHV recreational opportunity and experiences.
(b) Available Funding
From the O&M category, up to ten percent (10%) of the funds will be available for Development Projects.
4970.10.3. Planning
(a) Purpose
Development and preparation of plans for future Projects which propose organization, Development, operation, Conservation and/or maintenance to sustain long-term OHV Recreational use.
(b) Available Funding
From the O&M category, up to ten percent (10%) of the funds will be available for planning Projects.
4970.10.4 Acquisition
(a) Purpose
Secure interests in land to sustain and/or expand OHV Recreation access and OHV Opportunities.
(b) Available Funding
From the O&M category, up to ten percent (10%) of the funds will be available for acquisition Projects.

4970.11. RESTORATION
(a) Purpose
(1) To provide Ecological Restoration or Repair to habitat damaged by authorized or unauthorized OHV use.
(2) The goal of the Restoration Program is to aid the return of natural resource systems to their natural state when:
(A) Unauthorized motor vehicle use has damaged an area off limits to OHV Recreation;
(B) It is determined that areas shall be closed because soil or HMP standards cannot be achieved while sustaining OHV use;
(C) Areas formerly used by motor vehicles for OHV Recreation have not been designated and authorized for OHV use or;
(D) Natural resource systems in areas affected by ongoing OHV Recreation require restoration to sustain viable plant and wildlife species populations or other systems such as watersheds.
(3) Restoration Projects also include scientific and cultural studies regarding OHV impacts and Restoration Planning efforts.
(b) Available Funding
Twenty-five percent (25%) of the funds appropriated by the Legislature for the Grants program shall be expended for Projects within the Restoration category.

4970.12. LAW ENFORCEMENT
(a) Purpose
Law enforcement Projects provide financial assistance to local and federal agencies for protection of life and property, including natural and Cultural Resources, related to OHV Recreation and motorized access to non-motorized recreation.
(b) Available Funding and Eligible Applicants
Twenty percent (20%) of the funds appropriated by the Legislature for the Grants program shall be expended for law enforcement Projects. These funds shall be allocated as follows:
(1) Forty percent (40%) for local law enforcement Applicants,
(2) Thirty percent (30%) for the U.S. Bureau of Land Management Applicants,and
(3) Thirty percent (30%) for the Patrol Districts of the U.S. Forest Service.

4970.13. EDUCATION AND SAFETY
(a) Purpose
Provide public awareness for responsible OHV Recreation and/or provide safety programs.
(b) Available Funding
Five percent (5%) of the funds appropriated by the Legislature for the Grants program shall be expended for Projects within the Education and safety category.

Education and Safety: $ 1,300,000 should be 5% = $1,355,000
Law Enforcement: $ 5,200,000 should be 20% = $5,420,000
Operations & Maintenance: $13,000,000 should be 50% = $13,550,000
Restoration: $ 7,600,000 should be 25% = $6,775,000

The extra Restoration money around $900K was added Legislatively, supposedly because the program didn't spend enough in the past we now "owe" it to them. As far as the other numbers you got me on that one it don't ad up, also I didn't even add up the total of the grants yet, last year only $23.8 M got applied for just to muddy the waters even further...TJ

Like TJ said, there was a pile of money left over in the Restoration fund before SB742 was passed. By legislation, that money will be incrementally added to the current Restoration money until it runs out.

Revenue and Taxation Code 8352.8
(2) Up to one million one hundred thousand dollars ($1,100,000)
for each grant cycle, to increase the amount of funds available for
restoration grants

So, if you take that $1.1 million away from the $27.1 million, you have $26 million and the percentages work out as posted.

Ride on
Brewster

Well unofficially there's about $800K left over under Restoration (sound familiar), O&M will call it a wash with a little over or under depending on who's numbers you use. Law Enforcement will be short about $3.5-$3.9 Million depending on who's numbers you use, and Education drew the short straw with about $2.8 Million applied for, their hurting no mater which figures you use...TJ:smokin:

(Special thanks to ED Waldheim for taking much time out of his weekend to add this all up)

That must have kept Ed real busy as there are about 100 applicants and most of them have multiple requests!
The Education numbers is a surprise. That's a lot higher than in the past.

Does Ed have the figures posted somewhere?

Ride on
Brewster

We're dealing with three different set of numbers as far as what's available, I told Division I will post what I have on WWW.OHMVR.COM if they don't have it up tomorrow. They say they only want accurate information out there well hey get on it, what I'll most likely wind up doing is stripping off the available amounts and just post the amounts applied for...TJ:shaking:

Rushing to post inaccurate information provides little value to anyone... but then again you know I think that posting any information at all to OHMVR.com which is NOT affiliated with OHMVR is further steps down a sidetrack with an apparent mission to confuse. :(

What harm does it do to wait until the end of the week for summary information, especially when the process is more open and more available for public comment than ever before? Personally, I intend to ask for this information at the Friday meeting. Please, at the very least, plan to update your partial information and link to the correct info on the real website when it is out.

FWIW, Tom, I appreciate good information wherever I can get it, and respect you when you provide it.

Randii

As with information I posted from the Commissions binder, when the Division information is posted I will do just that, but hey that was last year how long does it take???...TJ

Rushing to post inaccurate information provides little value to anyone...

It's easy to verify the grant numbers for individual grant requests...just talk to OLGA.

What harm does it do to wait until the end of the week for summary information, Randii

With over 100 applicants and multiple requests by the applicants, it doesn't leave lots of time to read through the requests......kind of like the Route Designation documentation. If Division has the information in a spreadsheet to present at the Friday meeting, they should also get it posted to their web site. Not everyone can make it to the meeting.

See ya
Brewster

Here is a list of all who have applied.

12th District Agricultural Association
G08-07-01-D01 Development $178,000 62,000 240,000
G08-07-01-D02 Development $429,000 151,000 580,000
G08-07-01-G01 Ground Operations $19,000 7,000 26,000
G08-07-01-S01 Education & Safety $178,000 62,000 240,000
TOTAL $804,000 282,000 1,086,000

Alameda County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-27-L01 Law Enforcement $74,000 37,000 111,000

Alpine County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-01-L01 Law Enforcement $207,000 69,000 276,000

American Desert Foundation
G08-04-04-S02
Education & Safety $31,000 118,000 149,000

BLM - Arcata Field Office
G08-01-02-G01 Ground Operations $31,000 13,000 44,000
G08-01-02-L01 Law Enforcement $28,000 14,000 42,000
G08-01-02-R01 Restoration $36,000 13,000 49,000
TOTAL $95,000 40,000 135,000

BLM - Bakersfield Field Office
G08-01-03-L01 Law Enforcement $56,000 59,000 115,000

BLM - Barstow Field Office
G08-01-04-D01 El Mirage Lake Road Development $170,000 57,000 227,000
G08-01-04-G03 Barstow OHV Ground Operations $80,000 377,000 458,000
G08-01-XX-G01 El Mirage OHV Ground Operations $163,000 540,000 703,000
G08-01-XX-G02 Dumont Dunes OHV Ground Operations $109,000 362,000 471,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement Barstow $279,000 98,000 377,000
G08-01-XX-P01 El Mirage Twin Hills Planning $85,000 69,000 154,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Dumont Protective Barrier Restoration $536,000 237,000 773,000
G08-01-XX-R02 Rattlesnake Protective Barrier Restoration $81,000 47,000 128,000
G08-01-XX-R03 Afton Canyon Restoration $41,000 37,000 78,000
G08-01-XX-R04 Juniper Flats Restoration $156,000 62,000 218,000
G08-01-XX-S01 Barstow OHV Education & Safety $142,000 453,000 595,000
TOTAL $1,842,000 2,339,000 4,182,000

BLM - Bishop Field Office
G08-01-05-L01 Law Enforcement $28,000 113,000 141,000
G08-01-05-P01 Planning $15,000 14,000 29,000
G08-01-05-R01 Restoration Chidago WSA $40,000 41,000 81,000
G08-01-05-R02 Restoration Long Valley $15,000 12,000 27,000
G08-01-05-R03 Restoration Alabama Hills $41,000 14,000 55,000
G08-01-05-S01 Education & Safety $28,000 41,000 69,000
TOTAL $167,000 235,000 402,000

BLM - California Desert District
G08-01-XX-G02 Ecology - Desert Tortoise Large-Plot Monitoring $180,000 104,000 284,000
G08-01-XX-G03 Ecology - CDD Mojave Fringe-toed Lizard Population Monitoring $55,000 39,000 94,000
G08-01-XX-G04 Ecology - CDD Sonoran Desert Thorn Woodland Bird Monitoring $66,000 25,000 91,000
G08-01-XX-G05 CDD OHV Travel for Washes for NECO Plan Compliance $103,000 167,000 270,000
G08-01-XX-P02 Planning - Bats and Historic surveys of Abandoned Mines in OHV Areas $117,000 149,000 266,000
G08-01-06-P03 Planning - Raptor Surveys and Nest Monitoring in OHV High-use Areas $75,000 38,000 113,000
G08-01-06-R03 Restoration - Wilderness Restoration VIII $221,000 93,000 314,000
G08-01-06-S01 Safety - TV Show: OHV Tour of Old Mining Districts $60,000 31,000 91,000
TOTAL $877,000 646,000 1,523,000

BLM - California State Office
G08-01-XX-P01 Planning $409,000 155,000 564,000
G08-01-XX-P02 Planning- Develop Statewide Protocol and Capacity Building to Implement OHMVR So $116,000 170,000 286,000
G08-01-XX-P03 BLM OHV Site Analyses for Field Office Staff Support $33,000 38,000 71,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration $20,000 48,000 68,000
G08-01-XX-S01 Education & Safety $67,000 52,000 119,000
TOTAL $645,000 463,000 1,108,000

BLM - Colorado River District
G08-01-18-S01 Blythe Intaglios Education and Information $121,000 123,000 244,000

BLM - Eagle Lake Field Office
G08-01-08-A01 Acquisition $43,000 15,000 58,000
G08-01-XX-G01 Ground Operations $22,000 23,000 45,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $28,000 61,000 89,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration $58,000 33,000 91,000
TOTAL $151,000 132,000 283,000

BLM - El Centro Field Office
G08-01-XX-G01 Ground Operations $176,000 565,000 741,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $418,000 758,000 1,176,000
G08-01-XX-P01 Planning - Imperial Sand Dunes $180,000 106,000 286,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration - WECO $406,000 393,000 799,000
G08-01-XX-R02 Restoration - NECO $138,000 75,000 213,000
G08-01-XX-S01 Education & Safety $156,000 493,000 649,000
TOTAL $1,474,000 2,390,000 3,864,000

BLM - Folsom Field Office
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration, Pine Hill Preserve $102,000 106,000 208,000

BLM - Needles Field Office
G08-01-12-G02 Ground Operations $286,000 307,000 593,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $140,000 530,000 670,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration $436,000 272,000 708,000
G08-01-XX-S01 Education & Safety $186,000 82,000 268,000
G08-01-12-S02 Education & Safety $118,000 123,000 241,000
TOTAL $1,166,000 1,314,000 2,480,000

BLM - Palm Springs South Coast Field Office
G08-01-XX-G01 Ground Operations, Designated Route Signing Implementation $86,000 36,000 122,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $251,000 415,000 666,000
G08-01-XX-R01 Restoration, Dos Palmas Fence $178,000 84,000 262,000
G08-01-XX-R02 Restoration, Eastern Riverside County Wilderness Restoration $284,000 122,000 406,000
TOTAL $799,000 657,000 1,456,000

BLM - Redding Field Office
G08-01-XX-A01 Acquisition, Chappie-Shasta $95,000 32,000 127,000
G08-01-XX-G07 Ground Operations, Chappie-Shasta $126,000 50,000 176,000
G08-01-XX-L07 Law Enforcement, Chappie-Shasta $28,000 40,000 68,000
TOTAL $249,000 122,000 371,000

BLM - Ridgecrest Field Office
G08-01-15-D01 Development $583,000 546,000 1,129,000
G08-01-15-G01 Ground Operations $504,000 294,000 798,000
G08-01-15-L01 Law Enforcement $368,000 175,000 543,000
G08-01-15-P01 Planning $149,000 69,000 218,000
G08-01-15-R01 Restoration $818,000 431,000 1,249,000
G08-01-15-S01 Education & Safety $126,000 58,000 184,000
TOTAL $2,548,000 1,573,000 4,121,000

BLM - Ukiah Field Office
G08-01-XX-G01 Ground Operations - Cow Mountain& Knoxville $187,000 137,000 324,000
G08-01-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $72,000 69,000 141,000
G08-01-XX-P01 Planning Cow Mountain $164,000 64,000 228,000
G08-01-XX-P02 Planning- Eight Mile Valley $100,000 38,000 138,000
G08-01-XX-S01 Education & Safety $38,000 37,000 75,000
TOTAL $561,000 345,000 906,000

Calaveras County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-03-L01 $Law Enforcement, Upper interface 55,000 18,000 73,000
G08-03-03-L03 $Law Enforcement, Lower interface 51,000 17,000 68,000
TOTAL $106,000 35,000 141,000

California Trail Users Coalition
G08-04-XX-G01 Ground Operations - Access Roads and Trails Maintenance (Sot SNF) $31,000 11,000 42,000
G08-04-XX-G02 Ground Operations - Angeles National Forest Repaving Parking Lot $156,000 55,000 211,000
G08-04-XX-S01 Education & Safety - New & Updates for NF&BLM Area Trail Maps $96,000 32,000 128,000
G08-04-XX-S02 Education & Safety - SotSNF OHV Host Program $19,000 19,000 38,000
TOTAL $302,000 117,000 419,000

City of California City
G08-03-XX-G01 Ground Operations $54,000 20,000 74,000
G08-03-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $291,000 98,000 389,000
G08-03-XX-S01 Education & Safety $157,000 57,000 214,000
TOTAL $502,000 175,000 677,000

City of Marysville
G08-03-XX-D01 Development $148,000 53,000 201,000
G08-03-XX-G01 Ground Operations $52,000 18,000 70,000
TOTAL $200,000 71,000 271,000

City of Porterville Parks and Leisure Services
G08-03-XX-A01 Acquisition $420,000 148,000 568,000
G08-03-XX-D01 Development $500,000 176,000 676,000
G08-03-XX-G01 Ground Operations $118,000 42,000 160,000
G08-03-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $19,000 6,000 25,000
TOTAL $1,057,000 372,000 1,429,000

City of Tulare Recreation Parks and Library Department
G08-03-XX-G01 Ground Operations $214,000 71,000 285,000

Colusa County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-05-L01 Law Enforcement $20,000 7,000 27,000

Desert Daisies MC, Inc.
G08-04-27-S01 Education & Safety $171,000 102,000 273,000

Desert Group Search and Rescue Volunteer, Inc.
G08-04-09-S01 Education & Safety $143,000 150,000 293,000

Desert Tortoise Preserve Committee, Inc.
G08-04-10-G01 Ground Operations-Fencing $68,000 24,000 92,000
G08-04-10-G02 Ground Operations-Signs $21,000 8,000 29,000
TOTAL $89,000 32,000 121,000

El Dorado County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-07-L01 Law Enforcement $72,000 24,000 96,000

El Dorado County Transportation Department
G08-03-XX-D01 $Development - Rubicon Trail Restroom, Ellis Creek Crossing Area 55,000 20,000 75,000
G08-03-XX-G01 $Ground Operations - Rubicon Trail, Ellis Creek Crossing Area 115,000 42,000 157,000
G08-03-XX-P01 Planning - Rubicon Trail Restroom Facilities Feasibility Study $160,000 57,000 217,000
G08-03-XX-S01 Education - Rubicon Trail Education/Public Outreach $39,000 14,000 53,000
TOTAL $369,000 133,000 502,000

Fresno County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-08-L01 Law Enforcement $91,000 36,000 127,000

Friends of El Mirage
G08-04-XX-G02 Ground Operations - Trail Maintenance/Signage $63,000 58,000 121,000
G08-04-XX-S01 Education & Safety - OHV Site Coordinator $30,000 15,000 45,000
TOTAL $93,000 73,000 166,000

Friends of Hope Valley
G08-04-12-S03 Education & Safety $37,000 23,000 60,000

Friends of Jawbone
G08-04-XX-G01 Ground Operations - Trail Maintenance/Annual Sustainment $294,000 99,000 393,000
G08-04-XX-R01 Restoration - Closure/Recondition of Illegal Trails $277,000 93,000 370,000
G08-04-XX-S04 Education & Safety - Electronic (LED) Message Center at Hwy 14 $21,000 9,000 30,000
TOTAL $592,000 201,000 793,000

Friends of Oceano Dunes
G08-04-14-S01 Education & Safety $25,000 10,000 35,000

Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy
G08-04-XX-R01 Restoration $994,000 534,000 1,528,000

Humboldt County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-11-L01 Law Enforcement $176,000 60,000 236,000

Imperial County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-09-L01 Law Enforcement $573,000 290,000 863,000

Inyo County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-30-L01 Law Enforcement $175,000 168,000 343,000

Kern County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-25-L01 Law Enforcement $241,000 86,000 327,000

Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-10-L01 Law Enforcement - Santa Clarita $156,000 102,000 258,000
G08-03-10-L02 Law Enforcement - Palmdale $109,000 37,000 146,000
TOTAL $265,000 139,000 404,000

Madera County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-33-L01 Law Enforcement $115,000 43,000 158,000

Mono County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-XX-L03 Law Enforcement $79,000 26,000 105,000

Moreno Valley Police Department
G08-03-34-L01 Law Enforcement $287,000 96,000 383,000
G08-03-34-R01 Restoration $24,000 8,000 32,000
TOTAL $311,000 104,000 415,000

Napa County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-35-L01 Law Enforcement $65,000 25,000 90,000

National Park Service - Joshua Tree
G08-05-01-S01 $Education & Safety, Desert Tortoise Outreach & Education 103,000 111,000 214,000

National Park Service - Mojave National Preserve
G08-05-XX-R01 Restoration $271,000 93,000 364,000

Nevada County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-16-L01 Law Enforcement $22,000 8,000 30,000

Nevada County Woods Riders
G08-04-XX-G01 Ground Operations $161,000 168,000 329,000
G08-04-XX-G02 Ground Operations $19,000 20,000 39,000
G08-04-18-G03 Ground Operations -Downieville TMO & Monitoring $20,000 23,000 43,000
G08-04-XX-S01 Education & Safety $116,000 76,000 192,000
TOTAL $316,000 287,000 603,000

Plumas County Sheriff's Office
G08-03-13-L01 Law Enforcement $73,000 25,000 98,000

Reptile Rescue & Wildlife Services
G08-04-26-S01 Education & Safety $19,000 14,000 33,000

Rescue 3 Inc.
G08-04-20-S01 Education & Safety $83,000 155,000 238,000

Riverside County Planning Department, OHV Commission
G08-03-XX-P01 Planning $165,000 243,000 408,000

Riverside County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-XX-L01 $Law Enforcement, ROVE 105,000 35,000 140,000

Rubicon Trail Foundation
G08-04-XX-G01 Ground Operations $78,000 28,000 106,000
G08-04-22-S01 Education & Safety $63,000 22,000 85,000
TOTAL $141,000 50,000 191,000

San Bernardino County Land Use Services Dept. Code Enforcement Division
G08-03-37-L03 Law Enforcement $100,000 439,000 539,000

San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-15-L01 $Law Enforcement, Victor Valley 181,000 60,000 241,000
G08-03-15-L02 $Law Enforcement, Barstow 180,000 60,000 240,000
G08-03-15-L03 $Law Enforcement, Twin Peaks 103,000 40,000 143,000
G08-03-15-S01 $Education & Safety, Victor Valley 19,000 7,000 26,000
TOTAL $483,000 167,000 650,000

San Bernardino National Forest Association
G08-04-XX-R01 Restoration $57,000 61,000 118,000
G08-04-XX-S01 Education & Safety $108,000 352,000 460,000
TOTAL $165,000 413,000 578,000

San Diego County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-17-L01 Law Enforcement $215,000 73,000 288,000

San Joaquin County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-18-L01 Law Enforcement $310,000 103,000 413,000

Santa Clara County Parks and Recreation Department
G08-03-19-G02 Ground Operations $246,000 86,000 332,000
G08-03-19-L01 $Law Enforcement, 159,000 53,000 212,000
G08-03-19-S01 Education & Safety $11,000 4,000 15,000
TOTAL $416,000 143,000 559,000

Stanislaus County Parks and Recreation Department
G08-03-XX-G01 Ground Operations - Frank Raines $393,000 131,000 524,000
G08-03-XX-G02 Ground Operations - La Grange $129,000 43,000 172,000
TOTAL $522,000 174,000 696,000

Stanislaus County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-38-L01 Law Enforcement $106,000 344,000 450,000

Student Conservation Association
G08-04-23-R02 El Paso CWC/SCA Restoration Project $230,000 82,000 312,000

The California Desert Land Conservancy (dba The Mojave Desert Land Trust)
G08-04-XX-R01 Restoration $11,000 4,000 15,000

Town of Mammoth Lakes Tourism and Recreation Dept.
G08-03-XX-L01 Law Enforcement $39,000 13,000 52,000

Tread Lightly!, Inc.
G08-04-26-S01 Education & Safety - Tread Trainer $191,000 64,000 255,000

Trinity County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-39-L01 Law Enforcement $83,000 28,000 111,000

US Forest Service - Patrol District- Stanislaus NF
G08-02-XX-L01 Stanislaus NF Law Enforcement $237,000 223,000 460,000

USFS - Angeles National Forest
G08-02-XX-D02 Development-BCDT $30,000 11,000 41,000
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $170,000 92,000 262,000
G08-02-XX-R01 Restoration-Lopez $31,000 14,000 45,000
G08-02-XX-R02 Restoration- Portal Ridge $18,000 6,000 24,000
G08-02-XX-R03 Restoration-Marek $10,000 6,000 16,000
G08-02-XX-R04 Restoration-South Portal $18,000 6,000 24,000
G08-02-XX-R05 Restoration-Sawmill $19,000 6,000 25,000
TOTAL $296,000 141,000 437,000

USFS - Angeles NF - Patrol Distric
G08-02-21-L01 Law Enforcement $114,000 51,000 165,000

USFS - Cleveland National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 $Ground Operations, South 141,000 174,000 315,000
G08-02-XX-G02 $Ground Operations, North 94,000 147,000 241,000
TOTAL $235,000 321,000 556,000

USFS - Cleveland NF - Patrol District
G08-02-22-L01 Law Enforcement $80,000 32,000 112,000

USFS - Eldorado National Forest
G08-02-XX-D01 Mud Lake Trailhead Development $107,000 38,000 145,000
G08-02-XX-D02 Rock Creek Trail Development $340,000 400,000 740,000
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $390,000 170,000 560,000
G08-02-XX-R01 Restoration - Rock Creek Area $47,000 22,000 69,000
G08-02-XX-R02 Restoration - El Dorado Manzanita $17,000 11,000 28,000
G08-02-XX-S01 Education & Safety $21,000 9,000 30,000
TOTAL $922,000 650,000 1,572,000

USFS - Eldorado NF - Patrol District
G08-02-23-L01 Law Enforcement $251,000 384,000 635,000

USFS - Humboldt-Toiyabe National Forest
G08-02-XX-D01 Development $432,000 181,000 613,000
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $75,000 35,000 110,000
TOTAL $507,000 216,000 723,000

USFS - Humboldt-Toiyabe NF - Patrol District
G08-02-24-L01 Law Enforcement $64,000 22,000 86,000

USFS - Inyo National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations and Maintenance - Forest $170,000 427,000 597,000
G08-02-XX-G03 Ground Operations - Route Signing $77,000 123,000 200,000
G08-02-XX-R01 Restoration - Forest Projects $206,000 100,000 306,000
G08-02-XX-S01 Education & Safety $41,000 47,000 88,000
TOTAL $494,000 697,000 1,191,000

USFS - Inyo/San Bernardino NF - Patrol District
G08-02-25-L01 $Law Enforcement, San Bernardino 133,000 197,000 330,000
G08-02-25-L02 $Law Enforcement, Inyo 87,000 74,000 161,000
TOTAL $220,000 271,000 491,000

USFS - Klamath National Forest
G08-02-XX-P01 Planning: A-12 Play Area $22,000 11,000 33,000
G08-02-XX-P02 Planning: Humbug Staging/Play Area & Trail System $43,000 37,000 80,000
TOTAL $65,000 48,000 113,000

USFS - Klamath/Modoc NF - Patrol District
G08-02-26-L01 Law Enforcement $25,000 36,000 61,000

USFS - Lassen National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations - High Lakes OHV Area Recreation Site Management $55,000 140,000 195,000
G08-02-XX-P01 Planning - Potato Buttes OHV Area Management Plan $240,000 85,000 325,000
TOTAL $295,000 225,000 520,000

USFS - Lassen/Plumas NF - Patrol District
G08-02-27-L01 Law Enforcement - Plumas NF $30,000 10,000 40,000
G08-02-27-L02 Law Enforcement - Lassen NF $25,000 9,000 34,000
TOTAL $55,000 19,000 74,000

USFS - Los Padres National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $228,000 913,000 1,141,000
G08-02-XX-P01 Planning - Mt Pinos Tecuya Ridge Route NEPA $13,000 17,000 30,000
G08-02-XX-P02 Planning - Santa Lucia Las Chiches Reroute NEPA $11,000 4,000 15,000
G08-02-XX-P03 Planning - Santa Lucia Mixed Use Analysis $10,000 16,000 26,000
G08-02-XX-R01 Restoration - Ojai $39,000 14,000 53,000
G08-02-XX-R02 Restoration - Santa Lucia $136,000 48,000 184,000
G08-02-XX-S01 Education & Safety - Santa Lucia $16,000 17,000 33,000
G08-02-XX-S02 Education & Safety - Mt Pinos $41,000 58,000 99,000
G08-02-XX-S03 Education & Safety - OJai/Santa Barbara $10,000 9,000 19,000
TOTAL $504,000 1,096,000 1,600,000

USFS - Los Padres NF - Patrol District
G08-02-28-L01 Law Enforcement $79,000 77,000 156,000

USFS - Mendocino National Forest
G08-02-XX-D01 Fouts Springs Water Development $160,000 57,000 217,000
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $687,000 428,000 1,115,000
G08-02-XX-R02 Ericson 4X4 Trail Decommission $10,000 4,000 14,000
G08-02-XX-R03 Soda Creek Road Decommission $127,000 47,000 174,000
G08-02-XX-R06 Yolla Bolly Middle Eel Decommission $284,000 100,000 384,000
TOTAL $1,268,000 636,000 1,904,000

USFS - Mendocino/Six Rivers NF - Patrol District
G08-02-XX-L01 Law Enforcement - Mendocino NF $225,000 348,000 573,000
G08-02-29-L02 Law Enforcement - Six Rivers NF $12,000 48,000 60,000
TOTAL $237,000 396,000 633,000

USFS - Plumas National Forest
G08-02-XX-D01 Development Conklin Park $27,000 13,000 40,000
G08-02-XX-D02 Development Deanes Valley $17,000 12,000 29,000
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $292,000 155,000 447,000
G08-02-XX-P01 Planning $45,000 51,000 96,000
TOTAL $381,000 231,000 612,000

USFS - San Bernardino National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 San Bernardino NF Ground Operations $271,000 515,000 786,000
G08-02-XX-R01 San Bernardino NF Bee Canyon Restoration $112,000 49,000 161,000
G08-02-XX-R02 San Bernardino NF Circle Mountain Restoration $142,000 58,000 200,000
G08-02-XX-R03 Restoration Site Monitoring $66,000 39,000 105,000
TOTAL $591,000 661,000 1,252,000

USFS - Sequoia National Forest
G08-02-15-D01 Development $110,000 40,000 150,000
G08-02-15-G01 Ground Operations $232,000 106,000 338,000
G08-02-15-P01 Planning $189,000 169,000 358,000
G08-02-15-S01 Education & Safety $55,000 30,000 85,000
TOTAL $586,000 345,000 931,000

USFS - Sequoia/Sierra NF - Patrol District
G08-02-30-L01 $Law Enforcement, Sequoia NF 296,000 102,000 398,000

USFS - Shasta-Trinity NF - Patrol District
G08-02-31-L01 Law Enforcement $15,000 5,000 20,000

USFS - Sierra National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations OHV/OSV High Sierra RD $72,000 72,000 144,000
G08-02-XX-S01 Education & Safety OHV/OSV High Sierra RD $17,000 17,000 34,000
G08-02-17-P01 Planning Bass Lake RD $25,000.00 12,000 37,000
TOTAL $114,000 101,000 215,000

USFS - Six Rivers National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $46,000 17,000 63,000

USFS - Stanislaus National Forest
G08-02-19-G05 Ground Operations- Stanislaus NF $253,000 154,000 407,000
G08-02-XX-P01 Planning- Mi-Wok $12,000 8,000 20,000
G08-02-XX-P02 Planning- Groveland $15,000 8,000 23,000
G08-02-XX-R01 American Camp Restoration $29,000 17,000 46,000
G08-02-XX-R02 Gargoyles Restoration $11,000 10,000 21,000
TOTAL $320,000 197,000 517,000

USFS - Tahoe National Forest
G08-02-XX-G01 Ground Operations $443,000 212,000 655,000
G08-02-XX-P01 YRRD Travel Management Implementation $50,000 18,000 68,000
TOTAL $493,000 230,000 723,000

USFS - Tahoe/Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit NF - Patrol District
G08-02-33-L01 Law Enforcement $125,000 122,000 247,000
G08-02-33-L06 Lake Tahoe Basin OHV/OSV LE $60,000 20,000 80,000
TOTAL $185,000 142,000 327,000

Yolo County Sheriff's Department
G08-03-41-L01 Law Enforcement $59,000 20,000 79,000

Yucca Valley Police Department
G08-03-22-L01 Law Enforcement $83,000 29,000 112,000

I downloaded all the PDFs and put into a database. Easy to do in an automated way for me (do it for my work sometimes so already know the routine).
There are exactly 100 applicants - they may of limited the search ability to 100 or it is just a coincidence it is exactly 100.

238 projects from 100 applicants = 338 PDF files (I love it when the math works!)

EDIT: The $$$ total for projects is from General Application Requirements - 5 projects are missing from the GAR Project Request(s) Summary tables by the applicants (RTF for example lists G.O. but not education). So I added those in too.

Here is the breakdown by category:

Education & Safety = 38 projects $2,902,052 ($1,300,000 available)

Law Enforcement = 62 projects $8,228,000 ($5,200,000 available)

Restoration = 42 projects $6,793,000 ($7,600,000 available)

Operations & Maintenance 96 projects $13,880,000 ($13,000,000 available) consists of:
Ground Operations = 52 projects $8,110,764 (70% min = $9,100,000 available)
Acquisition = 3 projects $558,000 (up to 10% = 1,300,000 available)
Development = 15 projects $3,286,000 (up to 10% = 1,300,000 available)
Planning = 26 projects $2,442,900 (up to 10% = 1,300,000 available)

This thread is too long to be useful - so I better help make it worse :smokin:

As we all know - asking for money doesn't mean you will get any. I had to laugh about the irony of the requests in the Rubicon Trail areas.

For Ground Operations to help fix/maintain the trail - El Dorado County asked for $115.3K and RTF has asked for $78.3K. Very important, especially with the erosion concerns that have been raised.

So just ~$194K for a huge project - but there are ~$508K in Law Enforcement requests for the trail and surrounding area! You party animals - the military is going to send a bill next year for the F-15 flybys.

El Dorado County Sheriff's Department
Application: Law Enforcement - $72,176.25
The project encompasses the approximately 11-mile easter-most portion of the Rubicon Trail, trail variants and adjacent areas within El Dorado County.

Agency: USFS - Tahoe/Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit NF
Application: Lake Tahoe Basin OHV/OSV Law Enforcement - $60K
The LTBMU would focus attention on such popular OHV sites as the-Rubicon, Sand Pit and Power Line Trail, focusing on the summer and winter periods of motorized activity (May-Oct & December-March).

Agency: USFS - Tahoe/Lake Tahoe Basin Management Unit NF - Patrol District
Application: Law Enforcement -$125K
Priority OHV areas: Burlington, Rattlesnake, Pierce, Downieville/Sierra City trails, Gold Valley Prosser Pits, Boca/Stampede/Prosser Reservoir, Barker Pass, Rubicon Jeep trail, Bear Valley, Jackson Meadows, Fordyce Jeep trail, Meadow Lake, Sugar Pine, Foresthill Divide, Onion Valley, Texas Hill and the many dispersed camping areas.

Agency: USFS - Eldorado NF - Patrol District
Application: Law Enforcement - $251,217.00
This project will provide the basic level of law enforcement needs for each of the four Ranger Districts on the Eldorado National Forest, including patrols, installation and maintenance of signs, public contacts and education, and distributing maps.Patrols will be conducted on each Ranger District, focusing on popular OHV use areas, and areas of special concerns or with recurring law enforcement issues, although patrol staff will attempt to visit as many of the routes as possible across the Forest over the year. The popular OHV use areas include Elkins Flat, Gold Note, Rock Creek, Strawberry 4WD Trail, Barrett 4WD Trail, Rubicon 4WD Trail and Rubicon Canyon, Squaw Ridge area, and Blue Lakes area.

Of course, there is also the issue of an additional two seater crapper. It costs 3X as much to do the required study for all the regulation crap than it will cost to build the crapper and clean the crap out. Perhaps we need to rediscover how the bear does it so inexpensively!

Surprise! RTF and FOTR, you get partner mentions in:

Agency: USFS - Tahoe National Forest
Application: Ground Operations - $442,960.46
This application requests monies for contracts, supplies, equipment, salaries and other miscellaneous costs for facilities, and trails and resource monitoring on a portion of the Forest’s overall OHV and OSV system.

Agency: USFS - Eldorado National Forest
Application: Ground Operations -$390,412.00
Project activities would include trail tread repair, drainage structure maintenance, drainage structure installation, clearing of downed trees and logs, brushing, and sign repair or replacement on designated OHV routes located on the Eldorado NF. Project activity would also include posting of kiosks and information bulletin boards at designated OHV trailheads and staging areas and installation or maintenance of barriers needed to restrict travel off of designated routes. This project also proposes to conduct monitoring associated with the OHV use and resource protection needs.

These numbers are again a bit different than we came up with, but if one thing all these people crunching numbers shows there is interest, hope Division gets the message an gets something posted soon. As far as the high amount under Education I site two reasons, one is Law Enforcement can apply for their own Education/Safety grants and they are, others are grants like Rescue3 wound up here I personally thought it belonged under operations.

Ok just got off the phone with the grants team at Division, Dan's explanation was the purpose of the comment period us for us to comment on the grants and suggest changes, which means the numbers will change. So I explained to him I'm trying to push the Org's to anti up for some legal action, try and find a way to block the $90 Million dollar transfer from our OHV trust fund, to the general fund. In the mean time we're fixing to at least spend what's there, 1st commandment of grant Administration is leave no money UN-applied for, especially when your looking to fight a raid on the fund.

Think the point is made at this point, we need to push the Org's to anti up and try to block the transfer, I personally think it's more pressing that stepping over dollars to pick up dimes with these numbers...TJ:smokin:

You want to litigate to stop the transfer of a fund that was tied up in red tape to begin with (i.e. the main manufacturing product of government)? Not that I haven't tilted at windmills in my life.... but what is the greater good in doing that? I join in the frustration with the system and the violation of intent for the funds - just don't see that as a way out of the swamp.

If trying to get funds spent for OHV purposes is it not more efficient/effective to align with the OHVMR division? If the division is on board with the idea so be it - but if you want to fight with them then I think its a bad idea. Not enough time has passed to see how well they can navigate the politics under the SB742 rules to this outside observer.

New litigation attorneys are often required to read "Art of War" - to get their mindset prepared for battle. It is an interesting application to corporations but realities soon flood in. Litigation is like war - in that there is almost always destruction and collateral damage in ways never anticipated - it is not something to consider until other avenues have been exhausted. That's my viewpoint anyway.

"Of course, he carried it a bit too far. He thought that every windmill was a giant. That's insane. But, thinking that they might be... Well, all the best minds used to think the world was flat. But, what if it isn't? It might be round. And bread mold might be medicine. If we never looked at things and thought of what they might be, why, we'd all still be out there in the tall grass with the apes." - George C. Scott in "They Might Be Giants" (1971)

I didn't have a clear purpose in making this thread other than basic informational along with my own curiosities and musings about the process.

However - maybe there is something useful I can offer (or disastrous?)

The list Navy-Jeepster posted - is it useful to have behind that text the direct links to the PDF documents? I already have the list of links in the correct order which I generated to do the automated PDF document download - so its easy enough for me to do.

The plus side is it would make it very easy for anyone to "one click" read any grant application they are interested in. They could then comment on the OHV website. The downside is the same as the upside! :D

I would not want to be at cross purposes of the OHV division and for all I know they want people to use their search engine and perhaps they would rather have select public input rather than general - so if a land use guru could PM me or post if this is a good idea or to forget it would be appreciated.

Here is an example, if you click on a line the appropiate document appears:

<a href="http://134.186.25.134/designer/viewPDF.aspx?ShowPDF=Y&ExtUser=Y&TempID=1&Filename=Application_1_0.PDF&cat=GCA&appid=500&fyr=2008" target="_blank" class="postlink">12th District Agricultural Association</a>
<a href="http://134.186.25.134/designer/viewPDF.aspx?ShowPDF=Y&ExtUser=Y&TempID=1&Filename=Application_1_D.PDF&cat=GCA&appid=503&fyr=2008" target="_blank" class="postlink">G08-07-01-D01 Development $178,000 62,000 240,000</a>
<a href="http://134.186.25.134/designer/viewPDF.aspx?ShowPDF=Y&ExtUser=Y&TempID=1&Filename=Application_1_D.PDF&cat=GCA&appid=699&fyr=2008" target="_blank" class="postlink">G08-07-01-D02 Development $429,000 151,000 580,000</a>
<a href="http://134.186.25.134/designer/viewPDF.aspx?ShowPDF=Y&ExtUser=Y&TempID=1&Filename=Application_1_G.PDF&cat=GCA&appid=501&fyr=2008" target="_blank" class="postlink">G08-07-01-G01 Ground Operations $19,000 7,000 26,000</a>
<a href="http://134.186.25.134/designer/viewPDF.aspx?ShowPDF=Y&ExtUser=Y&TempID=1&Filename=Application_1_S.PDF&cat=GCA&appid=502&fyr=2008" target="_blank" class="postlink">G08-07-01-S01 Education & Safety $178,000 62,000 240,000</a>
TOTAL $804,000 282,000 1,086,000

I don't see a down-side to making this info more available! It is, after all, public comment! When RTF sent out our notification, we included the direct links in the message.

I'm looking at the General Application Requirements sections as well as the Grant Proposals themselves... it is kinda interesting to see what some of these organizations claim.

Randii

When making comments on the grant requests, address them to the OHMVR Division and to the Project Administrator listed on the General Application Requirements form. I checked with Division as to whether the Authorized Representitive or the Project Administrator was to receive the comments.

Ride on
Brewster

When making comments on the grant requests, address them to the OHMVR Division and to the Project Administrator listed on the General Application Requirements form.

I had a hard time finding the project admistrator for the different grant requests. it is only on the General aplication not the individual ones for that organization. I was also told that all comments sent to OHMVR will also be forwarded to the Project administrator for that grant request.

I am a little suprised by the lack of comments submitted do far. I would have thought people would be jumping to make comments (for or against) on these grant requests. less than 10% of the grants have any comments listed, an half of those come from Bruce and myself.:(

Just a guess as to why there is a lack of comments: maybe folks are waiting until the last day to comment so that there will NOT be time to make counter comments.

Ride on
Brewster

You want to litigate to stop the transfer of a fund that was tied up in red tape to begin with (i.e. the main manufacturing product of government)? Not that I haven't tilted at windmills in my life.... but what is the greater good in doing that? I join in the frustration with the system and the violation of intent for the funds - just don't see that as a way out of the swamp.

If trying to get funds spent for OHV purposes is it not more efficient/effective to align with the OHVMR division? If the division is on board with the idea so be it - but if you want to fight with them then I think its a bad idea. Not enough time has passed to see how well they can navigate the politics under the SB742 rules to this outside observer.

New litigation attorneys are often required to read "Art of War" - to get their mindset prepared for battle. It is an interesting application to corporations but realities soon flood in. Litigation is like war - in that there is almost always destruction and collateral damage in ways never anticipated - it is not something to consider until other avenues have been exhausted. That's my viewpoint anyway.

"Of course, he carried it a bit too far. He thought that every windmill was a giant. That's insane. But, thinking that they might be... Well, all the best minds used to think the world was flat. But, what if it isn't? It might be round. And bread mold might be medicine. If we never looked at things and thought of what they might be, why, we'd all still be out there in the tall grass with the apes." - George C. Scott in "They Might Be Giants" (1971)


So far I'm just getting told there is no legal grounds and perhaps their correct, I,m just amazed except for CORVA all the main Org's have been moot on this issue. As time dragged on I'm discovering the reasons both why their silent, and why this can be done without causing at least any further damage to the State OHV program.

What's been getting back to me is the reason we got raided is the $90 Million has accumulated over time, things like the Riverside SVRA, no grants program last year etc all contributed. So the silence may be due to fault which is perhaps the main Org's themselves, know-one pushed for anything to be done with all this money, so in todays economy it's just use it or loose it that's all.

What it really shows is the State program is just not functioning...TJ

Tom, if there's still an excess 5-10 years from now, I'll agree that we have a problem.

Holding a balance after a year of not granting when the old system was completely hijacked by the Commission would have wasted the money. The Riverside park would have come into the SVRA system with only a piddly amount of resources to ride, and the rest required to be be set aside for mitigation -- another waste of money.

I'm not thrilled that such a large balance had accrued, but when I think back to the last 8 years that I have been paying some attention to this program, I see plenty of times where there was opportunity to squander the cash, and yet it was not spent. I guess I'm choosing to look at this glass as half full...

Sure, our Trust Fund got raided, and that stinks, but I think we can get most of it back, and I'd rather have that chance than have purchased a bunch of property that we couldn't actually use (what the preservationists wanted), and NOT have a chance at using the money for better causes.

The larger challenge is IMHO to find good opportunities for new SVRAs. We can't spend the money if we don't have good candidates, and OHMVR has been begging for submission of good candidates for at least the last two years (that I recall).

Randii

"good candidates" is perhaps an operative word, many of us have been told don't bother applying, I know I'm one of them so personally I put some stock in rumors Division has been asking certain Agency's to not submit certain projects. There are very mixed messages here yes officially that is Division position, but the fact is they feed their face 1st and they consider the grants program secondary. Questions need to be asked like why DAC keeps recommending higher user fees, and at the same time the Agency that manages the area is not submitting projects in a year only $23.8 Million record low amount got applied for in OHV grants.

Leadership refuses to make any demands on Division, Glamis has the highest user fees and the County burns the must fuel per State accounting, ASA wont push the issue about Little grant money being applied for, the Deputy Director moderated their last BOD meeting I attended so go figure. Like it or not something stinks here, no one in leadership questions Division and the Deputy Director moderates some meeting, guess I'm just nuts and nobody sees this other than me...TJ:smokin:

[QUOTE=TomJeeps;9548893
guess I'm just nuts and nobody sees this other than me...TJ:smokin:[/QUOTE]

Finally, something we can all agree on. Ha Ha Ha!

Ride on
Brewster

Can we also agree the Deputy Directors report about this should be a hoot, you know she could have saved CORVA and the Governors office all the grief and just came out with this stuff. Just the fact it took all this teeth pulling alone is grounds to send her packing as far as I'm concerned, you know all that money could have been used to reduce grants funding short falls over the years...TJ:shaking: