Below is an unofficial list of the split times to chek point 1 that I copied from a thread JR started. I wondered if all the new rigs with bypasses would blow all the old school rigs away. Here is what I came up with let me know if you have any input


1. Jason Scherer (76) 47:53 Front 2.5" coil overs rear coilovers and bypass
2. Randy Slawson (248) 50:21 2.5" coil overs front and rear
3. Brad Lovell (232) 53:20 what does Brad run? I think coil overs only
4. Rick Mooneyham (554) 53:52 2.5" coil overs front and rear
5. Tom Wayes (321) 55:30 coil overs front and rear
6. John Reynolds (427) 55:39 Coil overs front and rear I think I know the fronts are huge
7. Joachim Schwiesow (001) 56:53 Coilovers front and rear
8. Ian Plaine (915) 57:11 Coil overs I am pretty sure
9. Wyane Isrelsen (54) 59:10 Hand me down 2" off the shelf coil overs
10. Casey Currie (2X) 59:10 Fox bypass air shocks

Why did the bypass equiped rigs not school everybody? I know Jason did and I know he spent as much time tunning and anyone. But where were all the new build that had to have bypasses?

The above is really unofficial and I am not trying to start anything I am just a bit surprised and wondered what everybody else thought.

wayne

Dead at RM12 with an overheated motor due to a cooling fan failure, but i only have them on the rear.

We were running some Radflo 2.5" tripple bypass air shocks. I wasnt sure how fast we could run the car through the whoops and still make it to the first check so we played it safe and ran a little slow through the first section. The best I can tell from our times is that we ran 60:03 to the first check. We were only able to tune for about half a day on the shocks. KOH was a good learning platform for many things, I hope to be better prepared for the next time.

I don't think those checkpoint times are that accurate and the type of shocks used are just a small part of the total equation. One thing is for sure, I didn't see many 2.0 air shocks on rigs like in 2008. :D

We were running some Radflo 2.5" tripple bypass air shocks. I wasnt sure how fast we could run the car through the whoops and still make it to the first check so we played it safe and ran a little slow through the first section. The best I can tell from our times is that we ran 60:03 to the first check. We were only able to tune for about half a day on the shocks. KOH was a good learning platform for many things, I hope to be better prepared for the next time.




Would you please keep us updated on the further tuning of your shocks?

I am going to be making some chassis revisions this summer, and one thing I need to do is modify shock location. So of course I will be making a decision on what to change as far as shocks go also.

I don't think those checkpoint times are that accurate and the type of shocks used are just a small part of the total equation. One thing is for sure, I didn't see many 2.0 air shocks on rigs like in 2008. :D

Dont be hating on the airshocks. :flipoff2:

"Why did the bypass equiped rigs not school everybody? I know Jason did and I know he spent as much time tunning and anyone. But where were all the new build that had to have bypasses?"

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.

Not sure what you are referencing, I could keep much better control with my rebound tubes opened up some, which then allowed me to be able to go faster. I tried running with everything closed (plain 2.5 airshock) so I could understand more about what I was adjusting through cause and effect.

"Why did the bypass equiped rigs not school everybody? I know Jason did and I know he spent as much time tunning and anyone. But where were all the new build that had to have bypasses?"

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.


Then what's the point? And why do most desert race rigs have them?

Not sure what you are referencing, I could keep much better control with my rebound tubes opened up some, which then allowed me to be able to go faster. I tried running with everything closed (plain 2.5 airshock) so I could understand more about what I was adjusting through cause and effect.

That's not a valid test as the valving in a bypass shock isn't even close to the valving in a non-bypass shock.

I tend to agree with Air Ride, as bypass shocks do a great job of smoothing-out the annoying little washboard crap, but this isn't what slows you down (maybe in a much longer race where fatigue could paly a bigger factor).

Paul

Dead at RM12 with an overheated motor due to a cooling fan failure, but i only have them on the rear.


You were one of the only ones to pas Chris and I in the whoops. And you blew by us when you did. How much tunning time did you have on your stuff?

wayne

I don't think those checkpoint times are that accurate and the type of shocks used are just a small part of the total equation. One thing is for sure, I didn't see many 2.0 air shocks on rigs like in 2008. :D


I don't have anything else to go off of so I used it. I did notice the same thing during the race though.

Wayne

"Why did the bypass equiped rigs not school everybody? I know Jason did and I know he spent as much time tunning and anyone. But where were all the new build that had to have bypasses?"

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.

The bypass does not. So why did all the cool kids need them?

I really want to hear your take on it if you will Mike.

wayne

That's not a valid test as the valving in a bypass shock isn't even close to the valving in a non-bypass shock.

I tend to agree with Air Ride, as bypass shocks do a great job of smoothing-out the annoying little washboard crap, but this isn't what slows you down (maybe in a much longer race where fatigue could paly a bigger factor).

Paul


Please explain the differnce in valving for me Paul.

I am not sure I follow why it would not be.

wayne

Not sure about the difference in the valving, I think I am at 60/40 and just to be sure, I am talking about 2.5" air-shocks, not coil-overs with bypass shocks. Without my rebound tubes being tuned my ass end wanted to bounce badly in the whoops, so bad I would have to slow down to keep from dumping it. With them opened up some the rear end would settle out better between whoops and not carry so much. I could tell a huge difference that the small amount of tuning did. I really do not know much about the tuning of these shocks and I am still at beginner level on the technical side of how and why they work. I am a believer of this technology for dual sport desert/rock-crawling/rock-racing where quick adjustments can be made. I plan to go out for my first rock-crawling trip with them this weekend, I have in my mind the adjustments I will make, will see how it goes. I ran all last year on a set of 2.0's, so I am still playing with nitrogen levels too. I hope to have it all figured out soon so I can at least be mechanically on top of my game for this year.

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.

I tend to agree with Air Ride, as bypass shocks do a great job of smoothing-out the annoying little washboard crap, but this isn't what slows you down (maybe in a much longer race where fatigue could paly a bigger factor).

Paul

I'd really like to hear why you guys think that bypass shocks don't help you go faster. Why do all the desert guys use them then? The smoother the ride, and the more time your tires spend in contact with the ground, the faster you can go. So... why am I wrong?

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.

100% disagree.

You were one of the only ones to pas Chris and I in the whoops. And you blew by us when you did. How much tunning time did you have on your stuff?

wayne


Well Bilstein sent Joel with the tuning trailer out to the lakebed for the race, and with losing my oilpump wed morning, i was out, and having to rebuild my motor thurs more i was out, but he spent about 10 hours with Jason Conover, who has a similar car, with the exact shock package. My car's a little lighter, and has softer rates than Jasons, but I made 1 pass for Joel to watch the car, we revalved all 6 shocks, and made 1 more pass, then went and got in line for tech. so 10 min of time? maybe?

The car is stiff as hell at slow speeds, and really doesn't ride good until 35-40, and feels like a caddy at about 45+ but that's right in the middle of my huge gear split where the motor falls on it's face :( but I've also been told, and from the pic's i've seen, the car spends about as much time in the air asn it does on the ground when it get's going good.

Well Bilstein sent Joel with the tuning trailer out to the lakebed for the race, and with losing my oilpump wed morning, i was out, and having to rebuild my motor thurs more i was out, but he spent about 10 hours with Jason Conover, who has a similar car, with the exact shock package. My car's a little lighter, and has softer rates than Jasons, but I made 1 pass for Joel to watch the car, we revalved all 6 shocks, and made 1 more pass, then went and got in line for tech. so 10 min of time? maybe?

The car is stiff as hell at slow speeds, and really doesn't ride good until 35-40, and feels like a caddy at about 45+ but that's right in the middle of my huge gear split where the motor falls on it's face :( but I've also been told, and from the pic's i've seen, the car spends about as much time in the air asn it does on the ground when it get's going good.

Yeah you an another rig passed @ about mile 9 and were flying in the rough. You were only using about the top 1/3 of the bumps the other rig was keeping more wheel on the ground but not flying as level.

Easy Rick had the best flying rig that I saw. He went by on the tops of the whoops with roost flying @ each point of contact. Yours was a close second. I wondered why you were getting out a few miles later.

wayne

Yeah you an another rig passed @ about mile 9 and were flying in the rough. You were only using about the top 1/3 of the bumps the other rig was keeping more wheel on the ground but not flying as level.

Easy Rick had the best flying rig that I saw. He went by on the tops of the whoops with roost flying @ each point of contact. Yours was a close second. I wondered why you were getting out a few miles later.

wayne



Damned Chrome Fan.... the car felt good, and I was starting to get comfortable with it, and scaring Mikey pretty good a few times too. I just had to keep tellingmyself it would hold together and the faster I went, the better it would ride.

I was co driving in the 435 car and we got passed by a lot of bypass / coilover equipped rigs. Mainly because of our rig, not their bypasses.

The vast majority of the rigs that passed us, and were running bypass shocks, were not valved very well IMO. From seeing them work their rigs in the rough stuff, they weren't dialed in all that well. Bucking, packing the rear, etc.

Hard to say if the valving in the bypass was off, the spring rates on the coil covers / carriers were wrong, or if a lot of unsprung weight and not much sprung was to blame.

There were some very dialed in coilover set ups out there with no bypasses....

Even the F-toys seemed to handle better than many of the bypass equipped rigs. (even at similar speeds)

Ryan

Please explain the differnce in valving for me Paul.

I am not sure I follow why it would not be.

wayne

Bypass shocks are valved much heavier than non-bypass, which should explain why Dwest's car didn't work very well with the bypasses closed.

Paul

Bypass shock have to advantages external tuning and position sensitive tuning.

The first makes tuning easy and the second makes the rid smoother over varied terrain.

There are two kinds of guys that buy bypass shocks. Really smart people that know exactly what they are doing, and dumb asses that buy them cause they herd the REAL racers use them and they're cool.

It's all about valving and knowing what to do with the valving. If you didn't spend 20 to 30 hours just valving your shocks to prepair for this race, you were not taking advantage of what your shocks could do for you. It doesn't matter if you have bypasses or not. They all have internal valving that needs to be done to get them right. Mike and I had FOA bypasses for this race. We spent a solid 12 hours valving them before we got them to a point that we could even start to use the bypass tubes. Even then, the rest of our suspension setup was so far off we MIGHT have been using half of what they are capable of.

If you don't understand how to valve shocks, or at least the basics, don't buy bypasses cause they will just confuse you more.

Most importantly, there is no way in hell that you can buy a set of shocks that are already valved to race in your rig. There are too many variables. It is just not possible.

There are two kinds of guys that buy bypass shocks. Really smart people that know exactly what they are doing, and dumb asses that buy them cause they herd the REAL racers use them and they're cool.

It's all about valving and knowing what to do with the valving. If you didn't spend 20 to 30 hours just valving your shocks to prepair for this race, you were not taking advantage of what your shocks could do for you. It doesn't matter if you have bypasses or not. They all have internal valving that needs to be done to get them right. Mike and I had FOA bypasses for this race. We spent a solid 12 hours valving them before we got them to a point that we could even start to use the bypass tubes. Even then, the rest of our suspension setup was so far off we MIGHT have been using half of what they are capable of.

If you don't understand how to valve shocks, or at least the basics, don't buy bypasses cause they will just confuse you more.

Most importantly, there is no way in hell that you can buy a set of shocks that are already valved to race in your rig. There are too many variables. It is just not possible.

Ding Ding Ding we have a winnar!!!

A well tunned Coil over will out perform an out of the box bypass everytime. The bypass can perform better than a coil over but not by just twisting screws. I revalved several times to get where we were and would have done it more with more time.

wayne

Ding Ding Ding we have a winnar!!!

A well tunned Coil over will out perform an out of the box bypass everytime. The bypass can perform better than a coil over but not by just twisting screws. I revalved several times to get where we were and would have done it more with more time.

wayne

And with a well tuned 2.5" or 3.0" coil over you have enough shock to control our heavy rigs for around half the price of a moderately priced bypass.:D

"Why did the bypass equiped rigs not school everybody? I know Jason did and I know he spent as much time tunning and anyone. But where were all the new build that had to have bypasses?"

One reason is bypass shock don't make you go any faster.



Disagree 10000%

We had a new shock out there and got some good testing on them, These shocks have slow speed valving and high speed valving, I can turn the high speed off from in the cab. Let me tell you there is a huuuugh difference. I was in a whoop section in slow speed valving, then ran the same section in high speed valving.... 15 mph faster and still could do more.

Disagree 10000%
.

Read what Mike posted again. "One reason is bypass shocks don't make you go any faster."

He is right. A BYPASS shock doesn't do anything for you. It's all about having a WELL TUNED shock.

Disagree 10000%

We had a new shock out there and got some good testing on them, These shocks have slow speed valving and high speed valving, I can turn the high speed off from in the cab. Let me tell you there is a huuuugh difference. I was a whoop section in slow speed valving, then ran the same section in high speed valving.... 15 mph faster and still could do more.


Todd
I looked @ your set up. Although it did bypass it was go go gadget stuff compared to the average cool guy bypass. I would like to hear more about your set up and how it worked when you can.

I also agree with Mike bolting on a bypass does nothing if you don't spend the tuning time. I could nail the shock tunning on my rig dead nuts if spent 1/2 the time and money on just the tuning as some did to build a new car that would fit bypasses. Oh and by the way bypasse do fit my rig but I cheaped out:D

wayne

We had a new shock out there and got some good testing on them, These shocks have slow speed valving and high speed valving, I can turn the high speed off from in the cab. Let me tell you there is a huuuugh difference.

How did they work upside down? :flipoff2:

How did they work upside down? :flipoff2:

Like riding on air! :laughing:

How did they work upside down? :flipoff2:

OK, I deserve that!!! :p

Easy Rick had the best flying rig that I saw. He went by on the tops of the whoops with roost flying @ each point of contact. Yours was a close second. I wondered why you were getting out a few miles later.

wayne

I thought it felt good, and was pretty fast, but that was the hardest I had driven it since it was completed. Seemed like the faster we went, the better it rode, even my codawg was telling me "Go, Go, Go!" but my nads were telling me "thats enough!"

Wish I could have seen it from outside the rig!:)

Swayaway's Brian Bell and others from Swayaway have an obscene amount of time invested helping me tune these shocks, and it payed off big time. Although we didn't win, (my fault) I was completely back to normal physically in two days after my beating.:)

Thanx Swayaway!:smokin:

Rick.

I thought it felt good, and was pretty fast, but that was the hardest I had driven it since it was completed. Seemed like the faster we went, the better it rode, even my codawg was telling me "Go, Go, Go!" but my nads were telling me "thats enough!"

Wish I could have seen it from outside the rig!:)

Swayaway's Brian Bell and others from Swayaway have an obscene amount of time invested helping me tune these shocks, and it payed off big time. Although we didn't win, (my fault) I was completely back to normal physically in two days after my beating.:)

Thanx Swayaway!:smokin:

Rick.

You were the fastest one that went by us. I have a mental pic of watching the tires hit the top 1/4 of each whoop and shooting roost till it left the groung again. DSI was very similar only I could hang with him if I pushed hard.

My po boy hand me down shocks did not have it in them to keep up long with either of you.

Wayne

All the cool kids with new rigs and the right technology toward this race didn't get the test time to dial things in and take advantage of what there cars were equipped with.. give them a year of seat time and tuning and see what happens next year.

Better bring it if you plan to keep up.:flipoff2:

Regardless of having bypasses or not, tuning is required to go fast. I think this year is just the start of understanding a little about shock tuning and suspension frequencies. This stuff just wasn't as important when crawling, where the main concern was wheel hop. I think the next thing people are going to start thinking about is how to lighten up the axles as shock tuning allows them to find the physical boundaries of how fast a solid axle can travel across the rough and stay in control?:D

-Tim

All the cool kids with new rigs and the right technology toward this race didn't get the test time to dial things in and take advantage of what there cars were equipped with.. give them a year of seat time and tuning and see what happens next year.

Better bring it if you plan to keep up.:flipoff2:

Regardless of having bypasses or not, tuning is required to go fast. I think this year is just the start of understanding a little about shock tuning and suspension frequencies. This stuff just wasn't as important when crawling, where the main concern was wheel hop. I think the next thing people are going to start thinking about is how to lighten up the axles as shock tuning allows them to find the physical boundaries of how fast a solid axle can travel across the rough and stay in control?:D

-Tim

Enter more IFS...
We know where the money train is heading, who's getting on?

Anyone know if there is any substance to the rumor that Campbell's CVs were a) $5000 each and b) toast after the race

Again, just a rumor I have heard.

If either is true, I don't see a bunch jumping that wagon, but hey, what do I know :)

Enter more IFS...
We know where the money train is heading, who's getting on?

Anyone know if there is any substance to the rumor that Campbell's CVs were a) $5000 each and b) toast after the race

Again, just a rumor I have heard.

If either is true, I don't see a bunch jumping that wagon, but hey, what do I know :)


Thats a money train ride for sure.:eek:


Easy.

Anyone know if there is any substance to the rumor that Campbell's CVs were a) $5000 each and b) toast after the race

Again, just a rumor I have heard.

If either is true, I don't see a bunch jumping that wagon, but hey, what do I know :)


Expensive yes, but toast ? That a rumor. The ARB was toast though:p

I know the frt. end parts on this car, cost is in the 20K range.

It looked like the cv boot on the left outer was bad after the race.

Anyone know if there is any substance to the rumor that Campbell's CVs were a) $5000 each and b) toast after the race

Again, just a rumor I have heard.

If either is true, I don't see a bunch jumping that wagon, but hey, what do I know :)

We are currently building two new IFS /Rock crawlers to race .Kirby is good friends with Roy who owns PRO AM The CVs and hub combo that Shannon was running is $17,000. The cvs were not toast after the race ,there has been some issues with the cv boot that holds the grease ....There is a new design that fixes this as for the ARB I do not know...J.R.

The IFS money train was too expensive for me from the begining. Which is a shame cause an IFS rig probly has the capability to overheat a coil over and therefore could benifit from the cool guy bypass shocks. Ian Plain had the only IFS I will ever own as he crossed the finish line.

wayne

We did heat our shocks up to the point we could tell they were getting soft. Not dead but not optimum either. Somewhere in the mile 15 range I started feeling them pulling on the rebound washers in the shocks so we toned it down a little on the climbs and dropoffs that were really pulling then put a couple of twists in the limit straps at the pit stop. Once we ran aftershock, they cooled off and were just fine, never topped out hard enough to notice after that.

The position sensitive tuning of a bypass would be nice, as would the extra heat dissipation from the tubes. Overall the 2.5 c/o served us well but would have been a problem if we pushed harder, like with more motor.
Our buggy is also heavy for the job overall and the axles are pretty porky, '85 ford D60 front and a 14FF rear. I'm sure the spider guys could beat our unsprung weight but 150# in the rear and 200# or more in front. That weight is hard on shocks whether it's above or below.

We did heat our shocks up to the point we could tell they were getting soft. Not dead but not optimum either. Somewhere in the mile 15 range I started feeling them pulling on the rebound washers in the shocks so we toned it down a little on the climbs and dropoffs that were really pulling then put a couple of twists in the limit straps at the pit stop. Once we ran aftershock, they cooled off and were just fine, never topped out hard enough to notice after that.

The position sensitive tuning of a bypass would be nice, as would the extra heat dissipation from the tubes. Overall the 2.5 c/o served us well but would have been a problem if we pushed harder, like with more motor.
Our buggy is also heavy for the job overall and the axles are pretty porky, '85 ford D60 front and a 14FF rear. I'm sure the spider guys could beat our unsprung weight but 150# in the rear and 200# or more in front. That weight is hard on shocks whether it's above or below.


Your not the only one. Our fronts were dead by wrecking ball. But there are a lot of reasons, which I will elaborate on in my story.:D

It was a long hard haul!

Rick.