I have this idea for some time:
When the front left tire goes on a rock , the left rear tire tends to follow him , as flex as the vehicle is as low the left rear tire will stay on the ground .
But this is a deceptive matter, because the rear tire will lose its grip much sooner then losing the ground (airborne) .
What I mean to say is , that what's more important when driving off-road is having as much vertical load in each tire as possible .

So, I thought to do a mechanism that will force the left rear tire to stay on the ground and with more vertical load as I can provide.
How – I'll connect the two axles together with a twist spring ( I don't know if that is the right word ) and when the front axle twist to one direction the rear will twist to the opposite one , in this way I will achieve more vertical load on each tire repeatedly .

Now, put the 'how exactly ' question aside (for a minute) and please tell me:
Do you think that a 1:1 ratio between the two axles will be safe? What I mean is that as high as the front tire will go the rear tire will go low? I think that a 1:2 ratio will be better ( the problem is that I can't do it two ways , only in one direction ( front to rear or rear to front ).


Thanks in advance

I believe that what you are talking about has already been done by Soni _____? with the Scorpion. Cool idea because you also have no body roll. Do a search for the Scorpion. Should help

Hope this helps, Phil:usa:

Originally posted by TJpwr
ISoni _____?

Honeger :D

Try searching the God of suspension thread... there was some talk of this. by using a torsion bar or a log sway bar from the front axle to the rear axle.

this is an alright idea until you factor in the torque of the engine, with the bars connecting the axles this will cause you to lift the left front tire in alot of situations, not because of lack of travel but because the torque is compressing the right rear and then your trick suspension compresses the left front. it meay be able to work but the scorpions honestly don't seem to perform any better then vehicles without forced articulation, expecially in the rough and hill climbs.

Originally posted by NE-RokToy
this is an alright idea until you factor in the torque of the engine, with the bars connecting the axles this will cause you to lift the left front tire in alot of situations, not because of lack of travel but because the torque is compressing the right rear and then your trick suspension compresses the left front. it meay be able to work but the scorpions honestly don't seem to perform any better then vehicles without forced articulation, expecially in the rough and hill climbs.

Yet another downside. Ive seen rigs with this type of set up flip themselfs over when climbing and one of the fronts starts to lift, it forces the rig to literaly flop over.

Yet another downside. Ive seen rigs with this type of set up flip themselfs over when climbing and one of the fronts starts to lift, it forces the rig to literaly flop over.

Yes i've seen that too. They work well in boulder fields, but no on ledges or climbs. Get a bad ass roll-cage...

Ive seen rigs with this type of set up flip themselfs over when climbing and one of the fronts starts to lift, it forces the rig to literaly flop over.

o.k , I was afraid of this behavior , it seems that this forced articulation should be more gentle than just a direct one .
How about a ratio of 1:2 instead of 1:1 ? it seems that with this amount of pressure
The front tire won't lift the other tire in the air; it will just keep it more on the ground.
The biggest problem is a technical one – how can I build/buy a spring that can twist in one side 10 deg' and in the other side 5 deg' ? and also keep it working in that way on both sides – one time front to rear and one time rear to front ?

Thanks

Soni used airbags, that were also driver adjustable...He was able to manually control front to rear/ side to side valving... His frame was also setup to pivot in the middle...

Rancho will soon be releasing their Kenetic Suspension system that uses hydrulic fluid and shocks to do exactly what you are describing. makes perfect sense in theory ...

Originally posted by Gozuki
Soni used airbags, that were also driver adjustable...He was able to manually control front to rear/ side to side valving... His frame was also setup to pivot in the middle...

This makes the most sence. Its all about control.

The Rancho deal will be interesting to follow.

The scorpion does not have a frame that pivots rather the rear axle airbag is center mount only so the only side to side control on the rear axle is from the links connected to the front axle. when the front is light (nose-up) and you apply engine torque in a hairy climb the chassis more or less flops to the side.

A lot of poorly designed coilover systems have this same deal going on. The warn kit suffered from this due to the coilovers being installed so close to the frame centerline. The sway bars are a bandaid to a system which is lacking IMO.

all that said- the Scorpion can do some amazing things when the driver know's how to make it work- most of the drivers I see fall under the credit card category and the driver tends to do the wrong thing with the airbags. it really needs some type of lateral control on the rear axle though.

I messed with a similar system using a frame mounted diff/spidergears with a spare driveshaft to each axle housing. forced the frame to always split the difference between front and rear articulation. My frame mount ended up fatiguing and cracked, I put the assy under the deck and played with spring rates for better dial in. It could still be made to work but i have not messed with it anymore.

good luck!

Originally posted by G02Guy

I messed with a similar system using a frame mounted diff/spidergears with a spare driveshaft to each axle housing. forced the frame to always split the difference between front and rear articulation. My frame mount ended up fatiguing and cracked, I put the assy under the deck and played with spring rates for better dial in. It could still be made to work but i have not messed with it anymore.

good luck!

So did the setup work before it broke?

yes, wasn't perfect, tolerance stackup allowed some body roll on a sidehill. On fast stuff it would shift the chassis quick/hard when you stuffed a wheel- more so than with the 4 coil/link suspension alone that i've got. I think it may yet have application in a comp rig if done right.

http://www.kinetic.au.com/

whodat

I believe his suspension is designed just like the scorpions, but i could be wrong.

http://66.12.181.251/2002moonrocks/0088.jpg

I can't tell from the pics, of course the buggy resembles a scorpion, but it sure does not handle like one (or maybe at all).

Soni is a personal friend, Heath, owner of the first one is also a friend- I've spent a lot of time with those guys on the trail and while I don't think the scorpion is perfect in terms of suspension design, I've never seen that particular quirk on the trail.

Bottom line is you really need some type of spring at all 4 corners, inboarding (ALA Warn XCL) compromises the springs greatly.
Ken

Originally posted by MudYoTa
I believe his suspension is designed just like the scorpions, but i could be wrong.

http://66.12.181.251/2002moonrocks/0088.jpg

Yes, that is John Hall's Scorpion replica with all yota running gear. I was reading this thread and was gonna post that same pic but you beat me to it.

Originally posted by ido


o.k , I was afraid of this behavior , it seems that this forced articulation should be more gentle than just a direct one .
How about a ratio of 1:2 instead of 1:1 ? it seems that with this amount of pressure
The front tire won't lift the other tire in the air; it will just keep it more on the ground.
The biggest problem is a technical one – how can I build/buy a spring that can twist in one side 10 deg' and in the other side 5 deg' ? and also keep it working in that way on both sides – one time front to rear and one time rear to front ?

Thanks

you don't use a spring (unlesss its torsion bar) you use leverage..so the one link is longer than other for more leverage...



the scorpion uses a cam-rod type setup conected to diagonal wheels...(think swaybar) he can now disconect it from inside the cab..

his air bags controll ride hieght not forced articulation

Originally posted by MudYoTa


http://66.12.181.251/2002moonrocks/0088.jpg

Heh:D The buggy looks like my male Amstaff taking a leak:p

But to the suspension. In our Alfaster we use hydraulic cylinders in top of every coil over. So we just adjust the upper connection point of the coil over to lift or lower our car. We use our hydraulics from side to side= left side lifts at the same time from front and rear and same goes on right side. we mainly use it to get more ground clearance while going over something. Or at sidehills.

Me and our Alfaster:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/timo.virtanen/kisat/raisio_2/kuva20.jpg
http://www.phnet.fi/public/mika.jussilainen/kuvat/haka02/jare2.jpg


Other car here in Finland uses same kind idea, except he uses each corner individually.

Samuli Suominen and his MB Kuksa:
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/timo.virtanen/kisat/raisio_2/kuva18.jpg
Here you can see one BIG picture of MB Kuksa (http://www.cs.uta.fi/~ji61489/foff/PICT0002.JPG)

Jare from Finland