HumVee wheels-Rockwells [Archive]

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 08:16 AM

That, is exactly what I said. I mean for the love of god, challenge me on this one... "Electricity only flows over the surface of a wire"

Now, I beg you to challenge me on this one. I presently have the resources to back it up and prove it....

Elfcruiser, your previous statement is incorrect, electrons move at only one speed. 1000 "tiny" strands as opposed to a single strand of copper have more surface area, therefore, flowing more efficiently. You brought wattage into the statement which is mostly irrelavent. Now, since electrons flow around the outside of a conductor and volts times amps equals wattage (in this case we'll use a 1000 watt amplifier which, in an ideally 12 volt supply will require 83 amperes) If you ran that many amps around a single strand of copper, it would heat up and lose effeciency. In an unidealistic situation, it may melt. Since there's more surface area in many smaller strands, you would divide the amperage by the greater surface area which, would result in almost milliamps, reducing heat, increasing efficiency and also, being generally easier to work with...

How come nobody uses copper in the high voltage business, unless for ground rods and other grounding devices?

And, in case you forgot, electrons flow STRICTLY over the surface of any conductor....

Now, gramps, look up the mechanical advantage in bigger gears. I don't need to bitch slap you, the techs in the trade will.

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by MR4WD
That, is exactly what I said. I mean for the love of god, challenge me on this one... "Electricity only flows over the surface of a wire"

Now, I beg you to challenge me on this one. I presently have the resources to back it up and prove it....

Consider yourself challenged. Lets see those resources.

BTW, just poking around this morning, heres what I found at http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1993/physics/PHY109.HTM.

if you consider a plane perpendicular to the direction of flow, the current is exactly the charge going through that plane per unit time. If you have a uniform material that extends out over an area A in this plane, through which the current is flowing, then the "intensive" quantity (like density, charge density, etc) associated with the current in this material is just the current
divided by the area A.

Notice the last statement where it says cross sectional area. No mention of surface area nor distance from the surface. Besides, if that were true, why aren't wires hollow?

Originally posted by MR4WD
Now, gramps, look up the mechanical advantage in bigger gears. I don't need to bitch slap you, the techs in the trade will.

You can't bitch slap me on this one because you have it wrong, but I encourage you to try.

Macgyver

09-06-2002, 08:44 AM

reminds me of high school industrial ed when this guys couldn't get his grinder to work and i told him it was because the cord had a kink in it and he actually went and straightened out the cord.....btw....it still didn't work. i plugged it in after everyone had a good laugh!

GJ, good comeback. just the facts man!:D

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep

Notice the last statement where it says cross sectional area. No mention of surface area nor distance from the surface. Besides, if that were true, why aren't wires hollow?

You're kidding right? Why aren't wires hollow? I think you'll have to answer that one yourself... Or was that a sarcastic question? I don't honestly have the capacity to answer that without slamming you, so I won't.

http://www.powerlineman.com/pictures/tree/AEP-Marysville11.jpg if you'll look, you'll see pipe for distribution in the sub stations.

If you search, you'll find pictures of this pipe too. Case AND point...Look at any substation, they use very thin walled pipe as opposed to cable, wherever possible.

You can't bitch slap me on this one because you have it wrong, but I encourage you to try.

*bitch slap*

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by MR4WD

You're kidding right? Why aren't wires hollow? I think you'll have to answer that one yourself... Or was that a sarcastic question? I don't honestly have the capacity to answer that without slamming you, so I won't.

http://www.powerlineman.com/pictures/tree/AEP-Marysville11.jpg if you'll look, you'll see pipe for distribution in the sub stations.

If you search, you'll find pictures of this pipe too. Case AND point...Look at any substation, they use very thin walled pipe as opposed to cable, wherever possible.

That is your Proof?? You're kidding right? Thin walled pipe, aka conduit is used to carry the wires. It does not carry current. All I see in that picture is conduit.

And no, I wasn't kidding on the hollow wire. It would be a lot cheaper to use hollow wire or rope covered with foil. If your theory is correct then it would work just as well. Try again. Lets see the principal behind this theory of yours.

Originally posted by MR4WD

*bitch slap*

Ooooh, that hurts:rolleyes:

Still waiting for that equation. Just how much more torque do you get to the wheels?

come on really. It's not that hard to admit you were wrong. Just admit it and I'll stop giving you greif.

Macgyver

09-06-2002, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep

That is your Proof?? You're kidding right? Thin walled pipe, aka conduit is used to carry the wires. It does not carry current. All I see in that picture is conduit.

.

OMFG!!!!!! i was wondering what he was talking about....i never even thought about the conduit. fawk me, anyone want to remove their foot from their mouth????:eek: :eek: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep

That is your Proof?? You're kidding right? Thin walled pipe, aka conduit is used to carry the wires. It does not carry current. All I see in that picture is conduit.

And no, I wasn't kidding on the hollow wire. It would be a lot cheaper to use hollow wire or rope covered with foil. If your theory is correct then it would work just as well. Try again. Lets see the principal behind this theory of yours.

You absolutely blow my mind. I'm not making this up, this is the work I do for a living. I'm a power lineman, and I build substations, erect poles (hyuck), run cable and generally work on anything over 13,800 volts. That is NOT CONDUIT you stupid bitch, that's ALUMINUM PIPE! There's NO WIRES in a substation, just cable and pipe. The pipe runs from bushings to transformers, while cable runs from transformers to downline distribution. The conduit would have to be INCHES thick instead of fractions of an inch in order to insulate the voltage. DUMBASS!

ACSR is about as cheap as you'll get (Aluminum conductor steel reinforced) Taking ROPE and wrapping foil around it is absolutely ludicrous. What happens when lightning strikes it?! It all blows up!? You are an idiot. Imagine MAKING hollow wire and putting it on a reel. Wouldn't it collapse under its own weight?! What's cheaper to make, tubing, or bar stock? WHY in GODS green earth would you want a hollow cable?! There's strength in steel reinforced cable idiot. How much weight is in a span a mile apart?! TONS! How much strength would HOLLOW cable have? Cables sag on a hot day, and shrink on a cold day... You'd have to put expansion barrels in pipe to allow that, while cable stretches....

JUST when I think you can't get any stupider, you redeem yourself.

Edit: Grampa incredibly stupid and Macgyver, are you the dumb and dumber twins? It's NOT conduit. It's PIPE. There's nothing inside of the pipe, just air. Like in your THICK HEADS!

I can't relay to you how right I am. You both just blew yourselves to a new level in the stupid scale...

Macgyver

09-06-2002, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by MR4WD

Edit: Grampa incredibly stupid and Macgyver, are you the dumb and dumber twins? It's NOT conduit. It's PIPE. There's nothing inside of the pipe, just air. Like in your THICK HEADS!

I can't relay to you how right I am. You both just blew yourselves to a new level in the stupid scale...

hmmmmm, i guess when i hotshotted 500 KV lines for APL, I didn't get any experience with power lines. whatever. while some of us try to remain nuetral in a topic to avoid looking like an idiot, you my friend just opened your mouth and confirmed it. do you know DRM????:flipoff2:

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 10:58 AM

Oh, a truck driver. NOW it's all coming together. Now, I know where all of your experience comes from. You MAY have shipped conduit, to enclose the ground wires as it comes down the tower (who needs a live tower? That would negate any point of having lightning arresters) Trust me, there's no conduit in substations unless to hold ground wires or instrument wiring. All the pipe you see there, stupid, is to conduct power.

Do I need to know DRM?

Now, shut up. I'm right and you're wrong. There's no debate here.

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 11:00 AM

All right dumbass. Assuming those pipes in the picture are actually the conductor and not just conduit. There's a reason they're hollow and not solid and it isn't because "electricity flows on the outside" It's because a hollow pipe is stiffer for a given cross sectional area than a solid pipe. Look at the picture again. The pipe supports the cables dangleing from the ends. It would be stupid to use a solid bar for that purpose you need structural support not just conductivity. That substation has to stand up to wind. It would be a very bad thing to had 13KV cables whipping around that's why hollow pipe is used. It has nothing to do with it being an ideal shape for a conductor. Cross sectional area and the conducting material determine the current handleing capability. Surface area has nothing to do with it.

You may work on these things, but you are not an engineer. You dont' have the foggiest idea how this stuff works you only know how to do your job. Why don't you go ask an engineer. You know the guys who design this stuff. He'll have a good laugh at your theory as I have, but maybe he can shed a little light on how this stuff works.

BTW, where is that formula on the gears? I'm still waiting.

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Grandpa Jeep
All right dumbass. Assuming those pipes in the picture are actually the conductor and not just conduit. There's a reason they're hollow and not solid and it isn't because "electricity flows on the outside" It's because a hollow pipe is stiffer for a given cross sectional area than a solid pipe.

I'm not assuming anything you stupid fawk, why would you want a solid pipe (since when is pipe fawking solid, that's bar stock, idiot) So, with your analogy then, you take two pieces of material, one solid aluminum and one 1/8 tubing, both 2" nominal O.D. You're explaining to me then, that the tubing is stronger then the round stock in any way, shape or form? The reason they're hollow, unlike what you GUESSED is because there's two surfaces for electrons to flow down, inside and outside.

Look at the picture again. The pipe supports the cables dangleing from the ends. It would be stupid to use a solid bar for that purpose you need structural support not just conductivity. That substation has to stand up to wind. It would be a very bad thing to had 13KV cables whipping around that's why hollow pipe is used. It has nothing to do with it being an ideal shape for a conductor. Cross sectional area and the conducting material determine the current handleing capability. Surface area has nothing to do with it.

The pipe does support the cables, but that's only to cunduct power. Solid bar has much more strength than a round bar, shit head. There's hardly any load associated with the trailing cables off the transformer bank. There would be a very limited wind load if any. Nothing noticeable. The trailing cables from the transformer to the poles would weigh in around 50 pounds each, and all of the weight would be supported by the pole. 50 pounds of 3/4" aluminum cable vs a 3" aluminum pipe. What's got more structural ridigity? You're right, there's no ideal shape of conductor. Everything conducts, incuding air. However, stupid, round pipe is much easier to extrude, roll, cut and work with than triangular, hexagonol, rectangular or square tubing. Use what's easiest to manufacture, stupid. Cross sectional area is nothing if anything, you mean to say surface area. Yes, traditionally current handling ability is determined by the conductor. Copper is much heavier and more expensive to manufacture than aluminum. Aluminum is used everywher. Surface area has everything to do with it. That's 375kv by the way, not 13,800. 13,800 is a motor voltage, or street light voltage you pissant. It's such a low voltage an electrician is qualified to handle it. Look at the size of the bushings on top of the transformer...

You're talking inane points that have nothig to do with what was originally discussed. I'll try and sneak a camera into work and take pictures of what I'm talking about to prove my point, stupid. I'm right, and you're wrong. this is my job we're talking about.

You may work on these things, but you are not an engineer. You dont' have the foggiest idea how this stuff works you only know how to do your job. Why don't you go ask an engineer. You know the guys who design this stuff. He'll have a good laugh at your theory as I have, but maybe he can shed a little light on how this stuff works.

I don't have to be an engineer. Most of these jobs aren't planned by engineers, there's simple codes and code books to follow. Everything you need to know is located in the book for quick reference. All of this junk is simple, if the theory is correctly understood. As far as power traveling on the outside of a conductor, it does. It's like that and that's the way it is. It's not open for discussion no matter how determined you are. I have more "light" to shed on how any of this works if you're curious, but I doubt you'd be able to comprehend any of it, since you can't wrap your skull around 1st year theory...

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by MR4WD
I'm not assuming anything you stupid fawk, why would you want a solid pipe (since when is pipe fawking solid, that's bar stock, idiot)

You are asking me to assume that what's in the picture is what you say it is. Since you've proven time and time again you don't know what the fawk you're talking about, that's a very big assumption on my part.

Originally posted by MR4WD
So, with your analogy then, you take two pieces of material, one solid aluminum and one 1/8 tubing, both 2" nominal O.D. You're explaining to me then, that the tubing is stronger then the round stock in any way, shape or form? The reason they're hollow, unlike what you GUESSED is because there's two surfaces for electrons to flow down, inside and outside.

Read what I posted. A 2" solid bar and a 2" hollow pipe do not have the same cross sectional area. I realize you lack any sort of math skills but even you must be able see that. What's the wall thickness of that pipe? (or am I supposed to be able to tell that from the picture as well) Let's just say for grins that it's .250" wall. The cross sectional area of that pipe is. pi*r1^2 - pi* r2^2 (r1 is the outer radius, r2 is the inner radius) is 1.37375 sq inches. A solid bar of the same cross sectional area is 1.32" OD. Hopefully you would agree that a 2", .250" wall pipe is stronger than a 1.32" solid bar. If not, let's just save that arguement for another day.

Originally posted by MR4WD
The pipe does support the cables, but that's only to cunduct power.

Is it just me or is that statement entirely contradictory?

Originally posted by MR4WD
Solid bar has much more strength than a round bar, shit head. There's hardly any load associated with the trailing cables off the transformer bank. There would be a very limited wind load if any. Nothing noticeable. The trailing cables from the transformer to the poles would weigh in around 50 pounds each, and all of the weight would be supported by the pole. 50 pounds of 3/4" aluminum cable vs a 3" aluminum pipe. What's got more structural ridigity?

Once again you have no idea of the forces involved. How far out is that bar cantilevered? Looks to be a at least 10' -15'. That's a pretty heavy load.

Originally posted by MR4WD
You're right, there's no ideal shape of conductor.

Oh but didn't you just say a hollow pipe has two surfaces to carry the electricity? Would that not mean that a shape that maximizes surface area be a better conductor than another shape that does not? Pay attention to this, this is where your arguement falls apart.

Originally posted by MR4WD
Everything conducts, incuding air. However, stupid, round pipe is much easier to extrude, roll, cut and work with than triangular, hexagonol, rectangular or square tubing. Use what's easiest to manufacture, stupid. Cross sectional area is nothing if anything, you mean to say surface area. Yes, traditionally current handling ability is determined by the conductor.

No, surface area has nothing to do with it, cross sectional area and material is what matters. Traditionally? With this new revelation all the science from the past doesn't matter? Boy you are full of it. A copper cable of the same cross sectional area has more current carrying capacity than an aluminum cable.

Originally posted by MR4WD
Copper is much heavier and more expensive to manufacture than aluminum. Aluminum is used everywher. Surface area has everything to do with it. That's 375kv by the way, not 13,800. 13,800 is a motor voltage, or street light voltage you pissant. It's such a low voltage an electrician is qualified to handle it. Look at the size of the bushings on top of the transformer...

13kv 375kv either way you don't want it flapping in the wind.

Originally posted by MR4WD
You're talking inane points that have nothig to do with what was originally discussed. I'll try and sneak a camera into work and take pictures of what I'm talking about to prove my point, stupid. I'm right, and you're wrong. this is my job we're talking about.

You can take all the pictures you want. They don't prove or explain shit without the theory behind their design.

Originally posted by MR4WD
I don't have to be an engineer. Most of these jobs aren't planned by engineers, there's simple codes and code books to follow. Everything you need to know is located in the book for quick reference.

Who do you think wrote those books and approved those codes?

Originally posted by MR4WD
All of this junk is simple, if the theory is correctly understood. As far as power traveling on the outside of a conductor, it does. It's like that and that's the way it is. It's not open for discussion no matter how determined you are.

It's quite clear you don't understand the theory. No discussion needed there either. Rather than taking pictures of stuff, why don't you show me some of this theory?

Originally posted by MR4WD
I have more "light" to shed on how any of this works if you're curious, but I doubt you'd be able to comprehend any of it, since you can't wrap your skull around 1st year theory...

Lets see this "light." Please quote this book you have on 1st year theory. I would love to see where it says electricity flows on the outside of a conductor.

Oh and while your at it, dig up that gear formula. I'm still waiting for that too.

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 12:42 PM

-Dumbass, it doesn't matter the surface area of a cross section. There won't be any electrons going through the center of any conductor, just the outside.

-the only reason the pipe supports the cables, is to conduct power. The pipe is a means of conducting power, and you need to conduct it downline from the pipe, so they attatch cable to it. The pipe more retains the cable than supports them.

-- It can't be that great of a cantilevered load, all we use are threaded couplings, sort of like a gas pipe. Aluminum is not what you would call heavy at all.

- A round pipe is easier to make, therefore that is what's used.

-again, cross sectional material does not matter, surface area does. Copper is a better conductor than aluminum sure, but cross section does not matter, surface area does. For instance, many smaller wires vs one thick shaft of copper is a better conductor, even while perhaps sharing the same cross section the smaller wires wrapped together will share a greater surface area therefore being a better conductor...

-- No, you don't want it flapping in the wind. That's why if it's an issue you install resonance balls.

- you can talk smack and challenge the issue all you want, It's of zero relavance to me. This is stuff I know. It'd be like me asking you the best way to be a complete idiot. You've got the market cornered on that, and I couldn't even begin to challenge you on the ways you go about it.

-why, do I need to show you the theory? It's not as if I can give you simple mathematical equation to show you how any of this works... It's all hands on experience and then school, try it out. Call any power company, talk to any electrical engineer or anybody associated with the electrical industry and they'll verify what I'm saying is right... By all means, don't take my word for it, take somebody else's.

-I do not have the gear formula, nor will I determine it. Talk to an educated individual with experience on this matter (somebody who can show you the math) and they'll back me up. It's somethign I just know, but cannot backup or explain via math.

What do YOU do for a living?

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by MR4WD
-Dumbass, it doesn't matter the surface area of a cross section. There won't be any electrons going through the center of any conductor, just the outside.

No matter how many times you say it, you're still just as wrong.

Originally posted by MR4WD
-the only reason the pipe supports the cables, is to conduct power. The pipe is a means of conducting power, and you need to conduct it downline from the pipe, so they attatch cable to it. The pipe more retains the cable than supports them.

The pipe supports the cable AND conducts current. Otherwise the cable would fall to the ground.

Originally posted by MR4WD
- It can't be that great of a cantilevered load, all we use are threaded couplings, sort of like a gas pipe. Aluminum is not what you would call heavy at all.

But you have no idea how to calculate it do you.

Originally posted by MR4WD
- A round pipe is easier to make, therefore that is what's used.

That's not what you said earlier. You said, "The reason they're hollow, unlike what you GUESSED is because there's two surfaces for electrons to flow down, inside and outside." Now you're telling me they are used because they are easiest to manufacture? Make up your mind, which is it?

Originally posted by MR4WD
-again, cross sectional material does not matter, surface area does. Copper is a better conductor than aluminum sure, but cross section does not matter, surface area does. For instance, many smaller wires vs one thick shaft of copper is a better conductor, even while perhaps sharing the same cross section the smaller wires wrapped together will share a greater surface area therefore being a better conductor...

Again you are wrong! Check out this wire chart (http://www.thelenchannel.com/1wire.html), pick any size wire. Look at the resistance figures. In a lot of cases the stranded wires actually have more resistance than the solid ones. (That means they can conduct more current without burning up) Look at the circular area column (and yes they are talking about cross sectional area, A cross section of a round wire is a circular area.) As that number goes up the resistance goes down. Stranding has very little to do with it. Once again, it's all in the cross sectional area.

Originally posted by MR4WD
-- No, you don't want it flapping in the wind. That's why if it's an issue you install resonance balls.

Yeah, and you also want to have your supports strong enough so it doesn't break in the wind now don't you.

Originally posted by MR4WD
- you can talk smack and challenge the issue all you want, It's of zero relavance to me. This is stuff I know. It'd be like me asking you the best way to be a complete idiot. You've got the market cornered on that, and I couldn't even begin to challenge you on the ways you go about it.

No buddy, you are the complete idiot. You haven't even got a grasp of the basics of your trade or your hobby. You may know how to follow your book, but once you get outside the scope of your book, you are stumped.

Originally posted by MR4WD
-why, do I need to show you the theory? It's not as if I can give you simple mathematical equation to show you how any of this works...

If you knew WTF you were talking about you could show me an equation, but since you don't you can't, because there isn't one!

Originally posted by MR4WD
It's all hands on experience and then school, try it out. Call any power company, talk to any electrical engineer or anybody associated with the electrical industry and they'll verify what I'm saying is right... By all means, don't take my word for it, take somebody else's.

Dude, I AM an electrical engineer. I have far more school behind me than you. You are the one who is wrong and don't worry, I will never take your word for it on anything. You need to talk to an electrical engineer since you won't believe me. Perhaps I should put out a call to any other EEs on this board. If ALL of them agree with me would that satisfy you?

Originally posted by MR4WD
-I do not have the gear formula, nor will I determine it. Talk to an educated individual with experience on this matter (somebody who can show you the math) and they'll back me up. It's somethign I just know, but cannot backup or explain via math.

Several educated individuals on this board with experience on this matter have backed up my statement. NO ONE has backed up yours. How much more evidence do you need? The gear formula is simple. It's input torque x gear ratio = output torque. ie. if you put 100 ft-lbs into a 5.13 gear set of any size you get 513 ft-lbs of torque. That's it! It doesn't have anything to do with ring gear size or anything else. As long as the gears are strong enough to survive the test, size doesn't mean anything when it comes to torque multiplication.

Originally posted by MR4WD
What do YOU do for a living?

As I said, I am an electrical engineer and while I don't design power grids, I know how electricity works. I also took several physics classes, statics and dynamics classes so I know the theory behind how gears work. I also worked as a mechanic while i was in school and have been working on cars since before I could drive them so I have plenty of real world experience.

magoo117

09-06-2002, 04:13 PM

Holy shit!!!This all started because I wanted to know if I could put Hummer wheels on my Rockwells.

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by magoo117
Holy shit!!!This all started because I wanted to know if I could put Hummer wheels on my Rockwells.

yup, ain't pirate4x4 great?

Grendel

09-06-2002, 05:24 PM

I was Highly Amused (note the caps)

Grandpa, I loved it. Thank you for the amusement.

I'll have to write that one down...

Electricty only runs on the outside of the wire.
Heck, I am just an electrician turned computer geek and I could eat that one.

rustycruiser

09-06-2002, 06:24 PM

Grandpa.
The above has to be one of the best, and most entertaining "smackdowns" I have ever read. Bravo, and good job. And MR4WD: do yourself a favor and quietly slink away. You bit off more than you can chew, and are too stupid to either realize it out or back off. :laughing:

frankie fountain

09-06-2002, 06:43 PM

kick em when there up kickem when there down. fawkin awsome thread you guys have here i'm lost so let me know about the weener :flipoff2:

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 06:44 PM

Really now, you blow my mind. Electrons flow on the outside of a conductor... I'm going to desperately look to prove this point...

Yes, the pipe holds the cable (by pipe, I mean pipe, which you'd stated earlier as conduit mr electrical engineer)

It's not a load we'd calculate. It's more like, well, let's put the transformer here. Well, let's end the pipe here. Well, let's tap the pipe here... That's about it for mathematical calculation idiot.

I hadn't done any guessing either. Pipe, the same pipe that we use, pipe, pipe pipe I'd stated is easier to manufacture than square tubing or whatever else. We use pipe, because it's a better conductor, lighter and generally cheaper than the same effective surface area of round bar. I hadn't realized previously your level of incomprehension.

That's a fucking wonderful wire chart. In every single case the stranded wire is a better conductor than if it were solid. Thank you for defeating your point and clearly stating mine. I wish everybody did this for me. Read it again you absolute imbecile. In EVERY SINGLE CASE LISTED, the stranded wire conducts better than SOLID WIRE.... EVERY SINGLE CASE. An OHM is a measure of resistance, right? The higher the number, the more resistance. I can't beleive how stupid you are... It BLOWS my mind. Yes, a circular mil is a measure of cross section, but its relavancy here is non-applicable.

We don't build supports. Not like you're thinking (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend you're capable of thought)

I'll call you on that one, and ask to see your credentials as an electrical engineer. You don't have any idea of what an ohm might be, so, you mustn't be an engineer. You're more suited to be an equipment operator, or perhaps gas jockey I'm thinking.

Since you're an electrical engineer, I'd like a definition of what electricity is. With that answer, you'll explain why it is that electrons travel along the outside of a conductor;

Make it good, I want to embarass you in front of everybody possible.

ItsaCJ6

09-06-2002, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by MR4WD
-Dumbass, it doesn't matter the surface area of a cross section. There won't be any electrons going through the center of any conductor, just the outside.

You might be a lineman but your an idiot,,, You basic primis is totaly false...

Free elctrons do travel faster on the out side of the conductoer BUT dip shit here is where your argument drops off the face of the planet... A completly insulated wire (read incapsulation) has no exterior surface yet is cunducts very well. and as far as everything being conductive that is also false.

Just to give a brain teaser ...well... Distilled water does not conduct electricty until contaiminated.

MR4WD

09-06-2002, 07:03 PM

When you're an electron, you cannot distinguish the difference between insulated and non-insulated wire. There'd have to be some sort of molecular fusion and only a single strand of wire... This would be of great resistance to the electrons, and probably wouldn't flow at all. Since you're stupid and don't know what you're talking about, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in saying that when you slit one side of a wire, depending on insulation you can easily pull the insulation back with no deposits residing on the wire. Since that's the case, there is obviously a small gap between the insulation and the conductor, which would be visible under a magnifying if not low powered microscope I'm sure. Now, with that said, you must also know than an electron is much smaller than something you can view under a microscope (we're talking the same size as atoms) and bounces around at the speed of light. The insulation is there to isolate the electrons to strictly the conducting device, and not to impede them. Now, shut up and go back to your cave.

elf_cruiser

09-06-2002, 07:07 PM

I just noticed MR4WD is from canada, maybe that thar 'lectricity works differnt up tharr??

rustycruiser

09-06-2002, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by MR4WD
Now, with that said, you must also know than an electron is much smaller than something you can view under a microscope (we're talking the same size as atoms) and bounces around at the speed of light.
Hey genius. Read the above statement. Then think a little (or in your case, do a Google search) and try to remember what atoms are composed of. Yep, you got it now.

ItsaCJ6

09-06-2002, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by MR4WD
When you're an electron, you cannot distinguish the difference between insulated and non-insulated wire. There'd have to be some sort of molecular fusion and only a single strand of wire... This would be of great resistance to the electrons, and probably wouldn't flow at all. Since you're stupid and don't know what you're talking about, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in saying that when you slit one side of a wire, depending on insulation you can easily pull the insulation back with no deposits residing on the wire. Since that's the case, there is obviously a small gap between the insulation and the conductor, which would be visible under a magnifying if not low powered microscope I'm sure. Now, with that said, you must also know than an electron is much smaller than something you can view under a microscope (we're talking the same size as atoms) and bounces around at the speed of light. The insulation is there to isolate the electrons to strictly the conducting device, and not to impede them. Now, shut up and go back to your cave.

Youre a fawking riot I have been enjoying the read. but you fail to grasp reality. here is some info for ya and the link.

http://www.amasci.com/miscon/eleca.html#light

ELECTRIC CHARGES ONLY FLOW ON THE SURFACES OF WIRES? Wrong.
During a Direct Current in a simple circuit, the flow of charges takes place throughout the whole wire. The flow is not just on the surface. If the level of current is very high, then the wire will become hot, and the current will heat up the inside of the wire as well as its surface. Thin hollow pipes make poor conductors; their electrical resistance is too high. To avoid overheating the metal we should use thick solid bars instead.

There is a persistent 'rumor' that electric current exists only on the surface of metals. This mistaken idea probably comes about through a misunderstanding of the nature of electric charge. After all, when electric charge is deposited onto a metal object, it distributes itself over the surface of the object. It makes sense that, since charge is only on the surface of metals, a flow of charge must take place only on the surface of metals, right? Unfortunately, the word "charge" refers to two different things. When electric charge is placed on a metal object, the added charge is just a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of charge already in the neutral metal. "Uncharged" wires contain an enormous amount of charge inside, even though they may have "zero charge" on average. Are you confused yet?

All metals contain huge amounts of movable electrons. During an electric current it is these electrons which flow. However, each electron is near a proton, and so the metal is said to be "uncharged." In a wire, electric current is a flow of "uncharged charge". Weird but true. Now if we were to place EXTRA charge upon a wire, that would be like pouring a teacup into the ocean. The "water level" would rise a tiny bit. Yet extra charges on a wire create a very noticeable electrical imbalance (they attract lint, deflect electroscopes, make sparks, etc.)

It isn't so strange that we might accidentally assume that the extra charges are the only charges on the wire. Yet in reality, electric currents happen in the "ocean" of the wire, and the extra "teacup" on the surface has little effect on the charge flow. The charge flow (current) is not just on the surface, and the whole "ocean" flows.

A second source of misunderstandings: during high frequency AC, the electric current on the surface of a conductor is higher at the surface than it is within the bulk of the metal. This is called the "skin effect." It is not very important for thin household wires at 60Hz. Perhaps some people heard about the Skin Effect but did not realize that it only works for very thick wires or for high frequency AC. At extremely high frequencies, the current does flow as a "skin" on the surface of large wires. For circuits involving high-current and high-frequency such as radio transmitters, it makes sense to use copper pipes as conductors. All the charge flow is on the surface of the conductors. All the heating takes place on the surface, and not deep within the metal.

Grandpa Jeep

09-06-2002, 10:09 PM

ItsaCJ6,
Thank you for that link. I'd been looking for something that spelled it out like that all day to shut this fool up. Of course that writeup is far too complex for him to ever grasp.

MR4WD,
Are you ready to concede defeat yet? That writeup is exactly right and is what I've been trying to get across to you all day. If you dont' believe me, print that out, take it to an expert you respect (if there is such a thing) and see what he thinks of it. If you'd like some help understanding how gear ratios work, here is another link for you http://www.howstuffworks.com/gear-ratio.htm Next time you wnat to argue something, be sure you know WTF you are talking about.

So with that, I am going to bed, confident that my credibility is intact and yours is in shambles. Good night!

bgreen

09-06-2002, 10:51 PM

[best :rainbow voice] I like solid wire cause its so Hard, The multi-strand stuff is just too soft. [/best :rainbow voice]

MR4WD

09-07-2002, 12:21 PM

CJ6- Great link, wonderful information.

During a Direct Current

Sorry for not making myself clear earlier, but I would've assumed that all of comprehended the fact that we weren't talking about a "direct current".

Obviously then, that long winded (but comprehensive) quote which you applied to this thread was mostly irrelavent, unless to point out the topic of using multiple stranded wire in a negatively grounded circuit. (car audio)

None the less, the skin effect is clearly defined as something to be true in high voltage; Or, in any 3 phase power supply. I had misconstrued that the same principles would be applied to a DC circuit, which, are vastly incorrect. It's reasonably vague to assume by this definition of power supply that current does or does not flow on the outside of a conductor in for example a single phase 60 cycle house hold type circuit. Current may, but Voltage absolutely does flow around the outside of the conductor.

Now, with that said, I'd like to question grampy full of shit about his previous errous post. The majority of question comes from this paragraph:

Again you are wrong! Check out this wire chart, pick any size wire. Look at the resistance figures. In a lot of cases the stranded wires actually have more resistance than the solid ones. (That means they can conduct more current without burning up) Look at the circular area column (and yes they are talking about cross sectional area, A cross section of a round wire is a circular area.) As that number goes up the resistance goes down. Stranding has very little to do with it. Once again, it's all in the cross sectional area.

And you're an electrical engineer? This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. What's a circular mil by defintion?

Also, to prove that CJ6 is merely stabbing in the dark about what he's writing, quoting and generally assuming to have knowledge on is this:

Free elctrons do travel faster on the out side of the conductoer BUT dip shit here is where your argument drops off the face of the planet... A completly insulated wire (read incapsulation) has no exterior surface yet is cunducts very well. and as far as everything being conductive that is also false.

That's hysterical to think like that, really. I laughed the first time I read it....

Still though, that's a wonderful link, and something I'm going to reference to on occasion, none the less some of the stated theorys on there are some what whimsical, so I'll search for more than one opinion or clear definition on the matter.

Moreover, it seems that when laid out in such simple terms theory is beyond comprehension for the two of you, because again you stated my point.

ItsaCJ6

09-07-2002, 02:01 PM

Dude your the professional lineman.. I am just a skibum.

Grandpa Jeep

09-08-2002, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by MR4WD
CJ6- Great link, wonderful information.

That is the smartest thing you've said in this entire thread.

Originally posted by MR4WD
Sorry for not making myself clear earlier, but I would've assumed that all of comprehended the fact that we weren't talking about a "direct current".

Did you actually get past that first sentence? What is it about his explaination that does not hold when applied to AC?

Originally posted by MR4WD
Obviously then, that long winded (but comprehensive) quote which you applied to this thread was mostly irrelavent, unless to point out the topic of using multiple stranded wire in a negatively grounded circuit. (car audio)

Uhh, which quote was that?

Originally posted by MR4WD
None the less, the skin effect is clearly defined as something to be true in high voltage; Or, in any 3 phase power supply. I had misconstrued that the same principles would be applied to a DC circuit, which, are vastly incorrect. It's reasonably vague to assume by this definition of power supply that current does or does not flow on the outside of a conductor in for example a single phase 60 cycle house hold type circuit. Current may, but Voltage absolutely does flow around the outside of the conductor.

Voltage flows around the outside of a conductor? BAhahaha that's a good one. You obviously don't understand what voltage is. I can't believe that in your profession you don't understand the difference between voltage (volts) and current (amps). Voltage does not flow. Voltage is elctrical potential. Don't take my word for it, look it up. Here's another link from that most excellent site CJ6 posted. http://www.amasci.com/miscon/voltage.html Pay particular attention to the section entitled "Currents don't have Voltage" And oh by the way before you start crying that he's only talking about DC, consider this, DC is much easier to understand and explain than AC. That's why he talks in terms of DC. The basics are all the same when talking about AC. It just get's more complicated with AC because then you have to consider reactance as well as resistance and worry about phase. But with a purely resistive load such as a straight wire at a low frequency such as 60Hz voltage and current are essentially in phase with one another and reactance is nil.

Originally posted by MR4WD
Now, with that said, I'd like to question grampy full of shit about his previous errous post. The majority of question comes from this paragraph:

And you're an electrical engineer? This is so far off the mark it's not even funny. What's a circular mil by defintion?

The way I read that chart, circular mil area is the cross sectional area in sq milimeters. Although now that I go and calculate it from the other figures given, it doesn't match. Not sure what units those are in, but it still appears to be circular cross sectional area. Why, what you you think it means? Surface area?

Look again at the first couple of lines from that chart

Now, here is what I was trying to point out when I gave you that chart. Look at the wire size. As the wire size goes up the resistance goes down for both solid and stranded. Bigger wires have less resistance than smaller ones whether they are stranded of not. You can see that right? If you look at 36 and 34 gauge, look at the inches and MM column (which I assume to be diameter of the wire) You will see that 36 gauge stranded wire is actually slightly larger than 36 gauge solid wire. Same for 34 gauge. That is the reason for most of the lower resistance figures. Now look at 32 gauge wire. As you can see, they have the same diameter for both solid and stranded wire. Now we're comparing apples to apples. Now look at their resistance figures. the resistance for stranded wire is 5% lower than for solid. 5%! There's your huge difference between solid and stranded. Now go check my quote again. I said, "Stranding has very little to do with it. Once again, it's all in the cross sectional area." Now perhaps I should have said it's mostly in the cross-sectional area. Congratulations! Are you happy now? You caught me in a small factual error. Are you ready to admit your huge gargantuan error yet?

Originally posted by MR4WD
Also, to prove that CJ6 is merely stabbing in the dark about what he's writing, quoting and generally assuming to have knowledge on is this:

That's hysterical to think like that, really. I laughed the first time I read it....

Gee, you know since you don't think any current flows through the center, of course it's hysterical to you. Or are you now convinced that it actually does?

Originally posted by MR4WD
Still though, that's a wonderful link, and something I'm going to reference to on occasion, none the less some of the stated theorys on there are some what whimsical, so I'll search for more than one opinion or clear definition on the matter.

Moreover, it seems that when laid out in such simple terms theory is beyond comprehension for the two of you, because again you stated my point.

Where and how did anyone state your point? I think you have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no clue WTF you are talking about.