Well I wasn't sure where to put this because I didn't want any bias towards one or the other, I've also search pretty much all day and can't find exactly what I'm looking for.

First off, this is my first diesel pickup. I will use the truck as my daily driver that needs to travel between Oklahoma and Texas. I will be pulling my Jeep like once a month too, but the main thing is this will be my daily driver and I need it as reliable as a used truck can be. I don't have a lot of money to be working on it all the time because I go to school full-time.

I know that the VP-44 tends to go out on the 24V which is expensive but is it goiong to go out for sure usually, and how often? What about the 53 block, only on 24 valves? I don't want to buy any truck that has been modded or worked super hard, or anything with 170,000+ miles. And I want a manual tranny. I'm not looking to spend more than $10,000

So which CTD should I be keeping my eyes peeled for, the 12 or 24 valve?

12v, hands down in my opinion from what you require. Plenty of power is available from them with "free" mods. No lift pump upgrade needed, injector pumps rarely fail, and the fuel shut down solenoid is really the only electrical device to inhibit running ability. The 53 block did find it's way into some late 12v Rams, be it rare.

The 24 valve lift pumps (vp44) do fail, usually about the time you buy the truck. Seems like the most common reason people sell/trade those trucks in. They can run fine for some time without showing signs. I just posted this evening for a friend who is having problems with his driving to Moab. I warned him about the vp44 before he purchased the truck. But, he said it ran fine and he wasn't worried. That seemed to change after making it halfway across the country.

The standard transmission is the only way to go, imo. (Ok, so mine has an Allison 1000.) The Dodge autos are worthless. Same friend just had to have his replaced, delaying said Moab trip.

I'd go with a late (non 53) 12v. Do some pump mods, air filter, exhaust and the 5th gear update. Since you are stuck buying a Dodge to get this peach of an engine. Be ready to change ball joints, unit bearings, steering box, track bar, TREs etc. Other than the Ram the Cummins comes in, it'll be a sweet ride.

i personally like the 12v,for the reasons mentioned above. they are super reliable,the mechanical injection is esaily modifiable and non-prollematic. only thing that sucks about the 12v is the size of the injection pump-compared to my friends 24v there seems like 1/2 the available space in the engine compartment-the vp44 is considerably smaller and the hydroboost uses alot less room also. to give you an idea,it took me about 3 hours to change the oil pressure sending unit on my 96 the other day :laughing:

in all fairness,the 24v trucks are good,too. you dont have the "free mod-ability" that you have for the 12v,but you can still bump the power up if you need to,the 2nd gen 24vs are an "electronically controlled mechanical injection" so they are still fairly simple.

the big reason vp44s fail is that the factory electric lift pump,located up front on the chassis(far from the fuel tank) fails,and the vp44 goes soon after. you can easily avoid expensive vp44 failure by installing a good fuel pressure gauge and paying attention to it.

before modding either truck,make sure you set aside $$ for good gauges. boost and pyro at a minimum.

now is a great time to buy these trucks,with high fuel prices and crappy economy,you should be able to get a nice 2nd gen truck for well under what you want to spend.

12v if you can find a decent one. I have a 24v but still love it. It was used but has had extremely good care. Hard to find a 12v that hasn't had been run hard. I was looking all over the country. There are some good diesel forums that address or can enlighten you on all the pros and cons and alot of cheap fixes for whatever you get.

the big reason vp44s fail is that the factory electric lift pump,located up front on the chassis(far from the fuel tank) fails,and the vp44 goes soon after. you can easily avoid expensive vp44 failure by installing a good fuel pressure gauge and paying attention to it.




Don't put off buying the 24V because of all the hype. Most of the people I have met with failed VP44's had no fuel pressure gauge installed and had no idea their lift pump had failed and the VP44 was killing itself. The VP44 needs no less than 10 psi....the factory lift pumps barely could do this brand new...once they start to go and you see single digit psi the VP44 is killing itself.

If you find a good deal on a 24V go for it....if you can find a 01.5 or newer it will have disc rear brakes which is much better for towing. Dodge went to disc rear brakes mid year in '01.

First thing you do is put a fuel pressure gauge on it. I installed this one:

http://www.blueridgediesel.com/shopcart/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=8&osCsid=7sh46dpdts5u56pohhba4tshu7

If you see less than 10 psi on your truck then you need to go to a better lift pump design. I went with the Air Dog but the Fass is a good system also. Some guys will just relocate the factory lift pump back to the frame by the tank which can also work. The lift pump is a pusher pump and Dodge decided to mount it on the engine block making it have to pull the fuel.

As far as transmissions mine is a 6 speed manual, but I have friends with auto's that have never had any problems, even towing. Most of the people that blow their transmissions have bombed the truck or they tow heavy. If you are gonna bomb the truck or tow real heavy then you need to find a manual or address the transmission pretty quick.

There is a ton of good info over on:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/

My dad has a 97 12v and a 06 24v he says the 97 gets better mileage and pulls better. Unfortunately the truck is falling apart around the motor. but that seems to be Dodge's SOP.

You should definately be able to find a nice lower mileage cummins with your budget. I would look for something say 2-3k less than your budget that way you have money to do some maintenance items like ball joints if the truck needs it. I wouldn't shy away from a 24v or an automatic. Just get gauges (fuel pressure) like other's have said.

The stock trans can hold a decent amout of power with just a better converter and valve body, which can be easily changed out in a day. So don't be too worried about the auto.

Another thing to think about is that if you do decide on a manual trans I would definately rather have rear drum brakes, the parking brake holds 10x better than rear disc. Better for unloading, and just something to think about if you ever pull a boat. (ie. boat ramps are steep) Now you can upgrade the rear wheel cylinders to the 30mm dia. to make drum brakes stop 2x better. (stock are 24mm) The bigger wheel cylinder is NAPA part # 4637337 and they bolt right in.


After saying all that I own a '95 12v 5 speed, and it gets great fuel mileage and tows great.

Whatever truck you decide to buy do plenty of research on the sites listed above to learn about all the common problems, fixes, and upgrades.

Great help guys. I've posted up on a DTR, and my jeep club the LSJC, thanks for all the help. I don't hear about any problems with the 12V, what problems do they usually encounter?

I know that the VP-44 tends to go out on the 24V which is expensive but is it goiong to go out for sure usually, and how often? What about the 53 block, only on 24 valves? I don't want to buy any truck that has been modded or worked super hard, or anything with 170,000+ miles. And I want a manual tranny. I'm not looking to spend more than $10,000

So which CTD should I be keeping my eyes peeled for, the 12 or 24 valve?

The biggest problem with the 12 valves is that they are aging and it is nearly impossible to find one with less than 200k miles on it (at least when I was looking it was). You can occasionally find them, but you will likely have a lot easier time finding a 24v truck with lower miles on it.

I wouldn't worry too much about mileage though as long as the truck seems to have been taken care of.

the big reason vp44s fail is that the factory electric lift pump,located up front on the chassis(far from the fuel tank) fails,and the vp44 goes soon after. you can easily avoid expensive vp44 failure by installing a good fuel pressure gauge and paying attention to it.

The stock lift pumps on the 24v trucks are either on the side of the block or some were installed in tank after a block mounted pump failed.

A fuel pressure gauge or pressure switch is a good investment to monitor lift pump condition. This will not guarantee that you still won't have an IP failure, but it should help. The IPs have electronics in them which can still fail and cause some drivability issues too.

That said, I would probably p-pump a 24v VP truck if I had a bunch of VP issues for power and reliability reasons.

My dad has a 97 12v and a 06 24v he says the 97 gets better mileage and pulls better. Unfortunately the truck is falling apart around the motor. but that seems to be Dodge's SOP.

:shaking: And you don't think that this might have something to do with age and possibly the mileage put on the truck?

Simply put, the Ford, Dodge, and GM offerings are still light duty pickups and are designed as such. Any of them will start exhibiting problems here and there as the mileage racks up.

I am sick and tired of hearing about how crappy the Dodge portion of these trucks are. My truck has over 320k on it and it has been BEAT. I'm very impressed with how well the Dodge portion of things has held up. The 12v cummins on the other hand has had every single known issue on it since I've owned it, and I bought it with most of them. The nice thing about that is that even with all the issues it is still drivable and it isn't going to do long term damage because of it, but the power isn't necessarily there either. Is the Dodge better than anything else? No, but they aren't any worse than a GM or Ford of a similar vintage IMHO.

I bought my 99 24v from a guy on here. I am the 4th owner and the truck was a hotshot truck or at least towed often. Had 5th wheel previously installed, an underdrive, and some mods still installed. 230k when I picked it up, 260k now in the three yers I've had it.

Still running strong, I've added a FP guage when I first bought it and its maintaining 14 psi at WOT, no 5th gesar nut issues. So far I';ve only put and AFE filter/tube and tires on it, changed the front calipers/pads and changed the driveshaft u-joints other than regular maintenance.

Its got the typical oil leaks but other than that, its a good truck. So as long as you maintain it and watch fuel pressure, the 24v's are a good truck.

I'm getting 19.5mpg average MPG, mostly highway, but some city.

Do you want reasonably cheap power upgrades and a nice simple engine, or do you want to be able to change power levels on the fly?
Put a good fuel pump on the 24V and it's fine.
Personally I went first gen, but a buddy of mine is running a third gen... Being able to go from economy mode to turn the sky black and back again with the push of a button is nice. I have all the same adjustments on my truck, but, it involves tools to do it... LOL

If it was me and I was 2nd gen shopping, I'd go with the newest, lowest mileage truck I could afford, put a good lift pump on if it was a 24V, and enjoy.

I have a 24v drive it daily and love it. Yes the lift pumps on the block suck and kill the VP44, and the stock autos suck. When I felt my VP44 starting to go I dropped it at the dealer and had it warrantied, then installed a FASS 150 as soon as I got home. The trans went last year and I put in a Goerend HD 47RE with the billet converter and all the options. Great transmision, would not trade it for a grindbox if you paid me to.

The 24v are generally nicer trucks since they're newer, and adding power electronically is nice because you can dial it up or down on the fly. There are weak points but fortunately the aftermarket has solutions for all of them.

How much is a new lift pump for a 24V and how hard is it to replace?

They are 1400 new with 400 core. I don't know how long it takes to put one in, mine was replaced free under warranty.

To answer the question... either will be fine... you'll obviously have better luck finding something with lower mileage for that money in the 24v.

My dad has a 97 12v and a 06 24v he says the 97 gets better mileage and pulls better. Unfortunately the truck is falling apart around the motor. but that seems to be Dodge's SOP.

and GM's... and Ford's... and ______.:shaking:

The "Dodge" wrapped around my 97 CTD has held up better than any of the numerous GM products I've owned and about the same as the Ford's I've owned.

Geezzzzz $1400, now that's not the vp-44 but the thing I need to replace to keep the vp-44 alive right?

The VP44 is around $1400.....that is the injection pump NOT the lift pump.


The stock lift pump is $150:

http://www.blueridgediesel.com/shopcart/product_info.php?cPath=1&products_id=6&osCsid=g7qcv7jaiub86p9p0u1dgv2v93

But that is just throwing good money away....put that $150 towards an Air Dog or a Fass. The Air Dog is $500. You completely bypass the factory lift pump and go straight to the VP44.

There is a ton of good info over on:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/

:lmao::lmao::lmao: :shaking::shaking:Good info there, right. Unless you want to know how to make a smoke switch or what intake is better, Id stay away tons of bad info there.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/ ...the pirate4x4 of dodge diesel

You want to send a guy that hasn't even bought a truck yet and isn't even sure about the difference between an injection pump and a lift pump over to competitiondiesel? That's like telling someone to come on Pirate and ask which budget boost to buy for his TJ in Hard Core Jeep tech :p

:lmao::lmao::lmao: :shaking::shaking:Good info there, right. Unless you want to know how to make a smoke switch or what intake is better, Id stay away tons of bad info there.

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/ ...the pirate4x4 of dodge diesel

LOL, no kidding.

The only thing that Cumminsforum is good for is to laugh at all the idiots over there. It gets old after about 2 minutes.

You want to send a guy that hasn't even bought a truck yet and isn't even sure about the difference between an injection pump and a lift pump over to competitiondiesel? That's like telling someone to come on Pirate and ask which budget boost to buy for his TJ in Hard Core Jeep tech :p

If he is smart and READS (not asks a bunch of dumb questions) the forums he will learn a LOT more at CompD than he ever would over at cumminsforum. On the other hand, cumminsforum can be good in a round about way to learn about potential pitfalls associated with a specific generation of truck and motor. CompD seems to be pretty good about sticking to performance minded upgrades and issues rather than just maintenance and drivability types of problems.

Ok well I'll start by reading and searching a lot on competitiondeisel.

You want to send a guy that hasn't even bought a truck yet and isn't even sure about the difference between an injection pump and a lift pump over to competitiondiesel? That's like telling someone to come on Pirate and ask which budget boost to buy for his TJ in Hard Core Jeep tech :p

:laughing::laughing::laughing: ok I somewhat I agree, but people on CF are idiots and dont have a fucking clue, he'll blow his truck up listing to 75% of the people there.

Like said it's like pirate dont post, search. Unless you gpt something good worth posting.

I posted up this question, but with a little respect for their knowledge and they have been very helpful and nice about it. I've got all summer and next fall semester to look for a 2nd Gen. 12V manual trans. 4x4. Want my Jeep...

I bought my 99 24v from a guy on here. I am the 4th owner and the truck was a hotshot truck or at least towed often. Had 5th wheel previously installed, an underdrive, and some mods still installed. 230k when I picked it up, 260k now in the three yers I've had it.

What type of underdrive unit is in the truck? Do you use it much?

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1128207555.html This guy is interested in trading for my Jeep plus a little cash. What do you guys think?

I would sell the 35's and run a 285 or 295

I don't like the fact that he wants to sell this and then turn around and buy another 24v. Yea sure he says he wants a different model (long bed or dually), but just seems weird to me. How much cash does he want besides your TJ?

Maybe he just wants something newer he can put put a programer or chip on or something with the updated dash. I know this is PBB and it's hard to believe this but not everyone has a raging hard-on for the 12v and actually prefers the newer 24v electronic stuff.

edit: I'd ask about the trans and get any maintenance records if it's been serviced or replaced. he could be trying to get out of having to fix that.

There is a ton of good info over on:

http://www.cumminsforum.com/

:rolleyes: Do not waste your time there. I have seriously gotten better info from the tow rig section here than I did as a paying member there. In fact, you will get better info and advice in the chit-chat section here than you will get there. I will NEVER support that site again.


On topic with your thread, I would look for a 12V. They are just so easy to fix, easy to mod, easy everything. I hate electrical stuff (see my cummins build thread here), so I tend to stick to anything mechanical.


Either truck will be a good choice for a first diesel. Find a good deal, set aside a few bones for minor repairs, enjoy.

OK so am I thinking right about this or not...

Would it be safer to get a '01-'02 24V vs. a '98.5-00 24V considering the fuel systems?

I know the 5spd trannys tend to lose 5th gear, but any problems with the '02 6spd manual tranny's?

OK so am I thinking right about this or not...

Would it be safer to get a '01-'02 24V vs. a '98.5-00 24V considering the fuel systems?

I know the 5spd trannys tend to lose 5th gear, but any problems with the '02 6spd manual tranny's?


It doesn't matter which year you buy between ' 98.5 and '02, plan on spending the $500 and adding a FASS or an Air Dog...the factory lift pump is a weak point even if it has been retrofitted into the tank like some of the later 2nd Gens.

I went from single digit fuel pressure to a constant 18-20 psi with my Air Dog. Plus going from the crappy factory 6 mm fuel line to the 1/2" fuel line (comes with the Air Dog) makes a big difference.

My 01.5 has the 6 speed manual transmission. If you are looking at the dealerships they attach a premium to the manual transmission trucks...the last ad I saw for one here said "rare 6 speed manual transmission!" :shaking:

OK so am I thinking right about this or not...

Would it be safer to get a '01-'02 24V vs. a '98.5-00 24V considering the fuel systems?

I know the 5spd trannys tend to lose 5th gear, but any problems with the '02 6spd manual tranny's?

No, exact same fuel system. And nv4500 (5spd) can be built strong than a nv5600 (6spd), but in stock form Id go with the 6spd, the gear selection is much better, going from 2nd-3rd in the 5spd kinda sucks, big drop in gears.