View Full Version : New CNC plasma tables available (vids coming soon)
For those interested in a cnc plasma but cant afford one please check out this thread. We started offering these a little while ago and after all the testing was done they work extremely well and are very fast and accurate. Videos very soon!!
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9848243#post9848243
Todd W
05-19-2009, 08:11 PM
Cool to see someone else getting into the game... curious why you say "For those interested in a cnc plasma but cant afford one please check out this thread." that however... torchmate has had affordable setups for a while. :confused:
Does yours come with more than theirs?
What are the full specs?
Weld together ? Bolt together?
Total weight?
Computer system separate or included?
What software?
Glad you brought that up let me see if I can answer those questions in one sentence. This is a complete kit minus the torch and PC it has everything included even the software which is Mach 3 and is totally bolt together.
To get this type of setup from another mfg of plasma tables you would spend over 10K and then be stuck with their design and interface software. This is the only table on the market that has everything including digital torch height control for that price. It is the fastest 4"X4" production table ever made and with a resolution of .001" movements it may be the most accurate. The only limit is the amperage of your plasma torch. We have dialed this plasma in to get 1.000 on a 1" square block on the largest part of the cut. This is after some cutter comp changes but it is almost unfounded and dimensions are subject to speed and amp setting as well as compensation for the cutter.
This table has been engineered to be the top dog at a screaming price. Their are some smaller even more accurate tables in the works here.
chris fresh
05-19-2009, 08:30 PM
with plasma? or without.
and how much? cheaper than payin 8 grand for a table and a gear drive.
still tryin to figure out where torchmate can justify 8000 and you still have to supply the plasma and the computer.
i guess your paying for the "there time" in developement.wich i think is a crock of shit.
anyone correct me if i'm wrong here.
I cannot comment on Torchmate they make a fine table. This table is complete with digital torch height control so before you compare make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
chris fresh
05-19-2009, 08:57 PM
don't get me wrong,i don't know anything about them except i want one.all i'm looking for is someone to say................were charging you 8000 dollars for something cool because we know you want it,and we have it.i don't own a fab shop,but i fab alot of stuff and can find tons of uses for it.
i look at the thing and don't see 8000 dollars in material or technology,maybe i'm wrong.i like 6000 more than 8000 of course.but your still in for 10 grand to get up and running.
Todd W
05-19-2009, 09:09 PM
For that price I would assume it's gear driven with servo motors ??
Is it a 2 motor design or single on the x axis?
Did you do any comparisons for cut quality, and speed with linear guide rails and /or stepper motors? (I know these would add a BUNCH to the cost, but curious if you compared.)
don't get me wrong,i don't know anything about them except i want one.all i'm looking for is someone to say................were charging you 8000 dollars for something cool because we know you want it,and we have it.i don't own a fab shop,but i fab alot of stuff and can find tons of uses for it.
i look at the thing and don't see 8000 dollars in material or technology,maybe i'm wrong.i like 6000 more than 8000 of course.but your still in for 10 grand to get up and running.
What you dont see is the electronics, cables, power supply. If you dont already own a PC or a plasma cutter then you wouldnt be able to run this table right away. A very high majority of people own a plasma here and a desktop PC can be had for $100 if need be to run a table. If you say I see $6000 dollars worth but not $8000 worth then you may be missing some info. These are propietary rails..nobody in the world makes them and the system is setup for speed and accuracy which is usually a compromise on CNC tables. You can have speed without accuracy or vice versa. Then you talk about digital torch height control and a controller and a board for your plasma. This system has virutally zero backlash which is another compromise with other tables. Repeatability and speed is something that some plasma table mfgs fail at.
I mean if your interested in building your own table thats great I love doing that too. You can spend a ton of $$ and a ton of time and not get it right or you can have success but you may not come close to the speed and accuracy of one of these bad boys.
In our shop we have large CNC mills and could make an entire CNC mill but why do that when you can make $ instantly on a mill you can buy and save yourself the time and $ it takes to build one.
Todd W
05-19-2009, 09:14 PM
don't get me wrong,i don't know anything about them except i want one.all i'm looking for is someone to say................were charging you 8000 dollars for something cool because we know you want it,and we have it.i don't own a fab shop,but i fab alot of stuff and can find tons of uses for it.
i look at the thing and don't see 8000 dollars in material or technology,maybe i'm wrong.i like 6000 more than 8000 of course.but your still in for 10 grand to get up and running.
It's my opinion that unless you are either looking for a toy in the garage, are wealthy, or have a business plan that utilizes the machine they are not for you.
Start pricing out the electronics alone separate, they are not too cheap.
I`m not saying you can't afford it, I`m just saying the electronics are a decent chunk of $. Add steel, and the design cost, and you are in it for a couple grand,maybe 3500. Add shipping, packaging, etc, maybe 4,000. So a healthy profit too :p HOWEVER, the biggest cost for the company will be man hours for support. #1 thing that CNC Plasma companies must offer is SUPPORT. That would be bundled into the price as well..
Not saying you can't build your own, and use the web for support.. hell, in the distant future I plan to build my own, but I've already added up over 3,000 in electronics, etc. (not the same specs, but it adds up fast).
For that price I would assume it's gear driven with servo motors ??
Is it a 2 motor design or single on the x axis?
Did you do any comparisons for cut quality, and speed with linear guide rails and /or stepper motors? (I know these would add a BUNCH to the cost, but curious if you compared.)
It is driven by 2 motors on the X axis. Motors are steppers with the better gear setup. Their are alot of subtlties in using a gear rack you must match components and you must go beyond that to ensure you have a ratio of size relative to the tooth contact at zero backlash. It is nailed with this system and everything was engineered to perform. Servos or steppers at .001" movement on a plasma table the quality is the same. Servos usually require a totally different power system and a reduction in speed or your stripping gears.
Todd W
05-19-2009, 09:20 PM
It is driven by 2 motors on the X axis. Motors are steppers with the better gear setup. Their are alot of subtlties in using a gear rack you must match components and you must go beyond that to ensure you have a ratio of size relative to the tooth contact at zero backlash. It is nailed with this system and everything was engineered to perform. Servos or steppers at .001" movement on a plasma table the quality is the same. Servos usually require a totally different power system and a reduction in speed or your stripping gears.
Gotcha.
Well it sounds like a great machine for the money that's for darn sure :D
It's my opinion that unless you are either looking for a toy in the garage, are wealthy, or have a business plan that utilizes the machine they are not for you.
Start pricing out the electronics alone separate, they are not too cheap.
I`m not saying you can't afford it, I`m just saying the electronics are a decent chunk of $. Add steel, and the design cost, and you are in it for a couple grand,maybe 3500. Add shipping, packaging, etc, maybe 4,000. So a healthy profit too :p HOWEVER, the biggest cost for the company will be man hours for support. #1 thing that CNC Plasma companies must offer is SUPPORT. That would be bundled into the price as well..
Not saying you can't build your own, and use the web for support.. hell, in the distant future I plan to build my own, but I've already added up over 3,000 in electronics, etc. (not the same specs, but it adds up fast).
Dont forget to weld it up on jigs, drill and machine all the proper holes and components and grind the rails, crate it up and slap a UPS tag on its ass.. :laughing:
chris fresh
05-19-2009, 09:25 PM
yes i'm starting to look and compare,researching and seeing where my money is going to go.i'm looking at the whole picture right now,price of the table,cutter and pc.because i don't own a production shop cutting tons of pieces daily and recovering money,money is a concern.do you have a link to any vids that show the speed and quality of your set up?it's just a matter of time before i buy one.i just want to know what i'm getting for the money.
Very soon Chris. Also if you dont need a 4x4 or a 4x8 we have another CNC plasma table coming out with a water table, torch height control that is 2'X3' under $4K. At our shop we have a 5X10 custom table and are working on a 5 axis plasma for other kinds of work. I am hoping to strike a deal with Hypertherm as they have some really great features like engraving on their hy-defs and I have some ideas for nozzles and increasing velocity for finer cuts but we will see what happens.
Keep in contact Chris we may have a demo for you in the not too distant future.
chris fresh
05-19-2009, 09:44 PM
were all looking for a 4x4 at a 3x2 price.lol. thanks for the info on all this and remember
i'll be waiting
Todd W
05-20-2009, 02:50 AM
Dont forget to weld it up on jigs, drill and machine all the proper holes and components and grind the rails, crate it up and slap a UPS tag on its ass.. :laughing:
You mean it requires labor :flipoff2:
yeah, that totally slipped my mind, haha. :laughing:
Todd W
05-20-2009, 02:51 AM
were all looking for a 4x4 at a 3x2 price.lol. thanks for the info on all this and remember
i'll be waiting
Once you go 4x4 you`ll want a 4x8 within a year guaranteed :p
Disturbed
05-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Very soon Chris. Also if you dont need a 4x4 or a 4x8 we have another CNC plasma table coming out with a water table, torch height control that is 2'X3' under $4K. At our shop we have a 5X10 custom table and are working on a 5 axis plasma for other kinds of work. I am hoping to strike a deal with Hypertherm as they have some really great features like engraving on their hy-defs and I have some ideas for nozzles and increasing velocity for finer cuts but we will see what happens.
Keep in contact Chris we may have a demo for you in the not too distant future.
Why not offer the 2'x3' table as a 2'x4' table? It would be easier to get material to fit it, cheaper and have less waste. I know a few places I can get 2'x4' sheets because the can just shear it it from a 4'x8' sheet. A 2'x3' will take more effort to get material to fit the the table.
I thought I was a long time away from getting a plasma table. This will fit in my current shop and is very affordable. A water table will also make it much easier to keep my little shop clean.
We can make a 2x4 without much hassle
Also gantry kits are now available
chris fresh
05-20-2009, 12:34 PM
yeah 2x4 would be better,like said with being able to shear off 4x8's.all i'm using it for is misc brackets and tabs and sign work.4x4 would be the largest i would go.
do you offer a return and upgrade feature in the future? just kidding.
or how about if i buy my 4x4 now and then want a 4x8 in a year,and you sell it to me with no profit.since i'll be repeat business and all.
also,how long on the vids of this thing in action?
You can easily go from 4x4 to 4x8 by welding on more table and new rails.
bigtoy302
05-20-2009, 09:28 PM
Once you go 4x4 you`ll want a 4x8 within a year guaranteed :p
Or sooner than that. I am already planning a 5x10 ac servo table next. Having a 4x4 is nice but cutting sheets down is a pain in the ass and it seems like larger sheets are easier to get.
MC, even with stepper you still need belt reduction. There is a reason that most all of the nice table manufacturers use them. I used them on mine and its awesome. 6k is not a bad deal. I had almost that into my table when I was all done but that included the pc and hypertherm.
Or sooner than that. I am already planning a 5x10 ac servo table next. Having a 4x4 is nice but cutting sheets down is a pain in the ass and it seems like larger sheets are easier to get.
MC, even with stepper you still need belt reduction. There is a reason that most all of the nice table manufacturers use them. I used them on mine and its awesome. 6k is not a bad deal. I had almost that into my table when I was all done but that included the pc and hypertherm.
You need gear reduction if you dont tailor your stepper right for the weight and speed you need. Why would you run ac servos on a plasma cutter? Unless your routing you do not need that kind of lower end torque.
slvr98svt
05-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Once you go 4x4 you`ll want a 4x8 within a year guaranteed :p
Hence why I went 5x10:smokin: Also means you get a better price on the steel as well!
bigtoy302
05-21-2009, 09:16 AM
You need gear reduction if you dont tailor your stepper right for the weight and speed you need. Why would you run ac servos on a plasma cutter? Unless your routing you do not need that kind of lower end torque.
What kind of accel's are you using in mach?. I bet they are pretty low. With gear drives I can accelerate very fast which make nice sharp corners. With direct drive your only getting around .010 to.015 resolution but with microstepping drives your bringing it down to .001. IIRC microstepping only works at low speeds. What electronics package are you using and what THC are you using with your stuff? I am not dissing on your products but there are better ways to do stuff.
I want my next table to be more commercial quality and with a 6ft gantry rapiding at 1500IPM I want ac servos.
What kind of accel's are you using in mach?. I bet they are pretty low. With gear drives I can accelerate very fast which make nice sharp corners. With direct drive your only getting around .010 to.015 resolution but with microstepping drives your bringing it down to .001. IIRC microstepping only works at low speeds. What electronics package are you using and what THC are you using with your stuff? I am not dissing on your products but there are better ways to do stuff.
I want my next table to be more commercial quality and with a 6ft gantry rapiding at 1500IPM I want ac servos.
Acceleration is very fast actually and the resolution is .001 and the rapid is 1000ipm. Digital torch height control on these tables. With a ac servo you will need a 2-1 reduction to get that 1500 rapid and a pretty decent gear. How are you going to control backlash? Using a spring you may have a hard time with that kind of low end torque without either chattering the gear or using so much spring pressure you actually wear the gear out or the rack or break the gears. I know from experience that the torque curve of a servo makes for a mess if things arent right.
bigtoy302
05-21-2009, 10:30 AM
Acceleration is very fast actually and the resolution is .001 and the rapid is 1000ipm. Digital torch height control on these tables. With a ac servo you will need a 2-1 reduction to get that 1500 rapid and a pretty decent gear. How are you going to control backlash? Using a spring you may have a hard time with that kind of low end torque without either chattering the gear or using so much spring pressure you actually wear the gear out or the rack or break the gears. I know from experience that the torque curve of a servo makes for a mess if things arent right.
You need more like 5 to 6-1 with servos for propper reduction. I am running 3.4-1 right now with steppers. I am going to stay with spring loading the gear to the rack. Ac servos are just an idea right now. I am not sure if I am going to go with servos or I might stay with steppers.
You need more like 5 to 6-1 with servos for propper reduction. I am running 3.4-1 right now with steppers. I am going to stay with spring loading the gear to the rack. Ac servos are just an idea right now. I am not sure if I am going
to with servos or i might stay with steppers.
Servos are nice if your going to route!! PM sent
What kind of accel's are you using in mach?. I bet they are pretty low. With gear drives I can accelerate very fast which make nice sharp corners. With direct drive your only getting around .010 to.015 resolution but with microstepping drives your bringing it down to .001. IIRC microstepping only works at low speeds. What electronics package are you using and what THC are you using with your stuff? I am not dissing on your products but there are better ways to do stuff.
I want my next table to be more commercial quality and with a 6ft gantry rapiding at 1500IPM I want ac servos.
This table does microstep in .001 and drives @ .010 but at the same time if you go 50"s you will be 50"s within .001 and get there fast with a short ramp up to 1000ipm. Some mfgs dont know this can be done. ;)
I'm subscribed to this cause I want to see videos.
To the guy talking about Servos & reductions. Here is a tip: never ballpark a Servo reduction, it effects the reflected Inertia. Screw up your inertia ratios and you will have the most over damped PID loop on record just to keep your system stable.
Start with brushed DC, if you want to get into servos.
bigtoy302
05-21-2009, 11:17 PM
I'm subscribed to this cause I want to see videos.
To the guy talking about Servos & reductions. Here is a tip: never ballpark a Servo reduction, it effects the reflected Inertia. Screw up your inertia ratios and you will have the most over damped PID loop on record just to keep your system stable.
Start with brushed DC, if you want to get into servos.
I was just using that as a example. I will calculate the load inertia of the table when I actually go to build it. Like I said before I don't know if I am going to use ac or dc or just go with steppers again. It sounds like you know a lot about automation.
Disturbed
05-27-2009, 06:19 PM
Are you getting close to having the smaller tables and the pictures/video of the machine running? What size plasma cutter are you running on the demo tables?
Alot of machines have been moving in and out. We are working on this guy it a 5x10 capable of .0001" movements and rapids of 1200ipm. This machine will be both a plasma and a torch machine capable of holding 5'x10' 3.5" slabs of steel! :eek: Complete with water table for virtually vaporless cutting.
I left a little background in there to show the other side where the cnc mills and lathes are buzzing.
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