i just tossed a dana 44 and twelve bolt under my rig, and now the master cylinder doesn't seem to be pushing enough fluid to have a firm pedal. you have to press it all the way to the floor before it will stop, sometimes even pumping it to build up pressure. its the stock master cyl. i know of lots of alternatives for fixing it, but whats the best and easiest solution. ie, what master cyl bolts right up to replace the stock one, ect.

the steering is another story. its just kinda a cobbled together k link or z link design that is temporary so we could test other things out. the high steer is waiting on the knuckles in the mail. the problem is it doesn't steer from lock to lock completely. it only steers about half way each direction that it should. it has a drop pitman arm and the drag link is almost parallel to the ground, but not quite. i'm hoping when we build the hi-steer it will all just end up working, but i'm not sure. i couldn't do too much testing though cause its hard to drive on the trail with only a few degrees of turning. i had to make multiple point turns on EVERY turn.

thanks, heres the pics. we couldn't get it to lift a tire, but we didn't want to flex it any more because the front spring was binding a little funny because of the shackle. it was binding and flexing sideways. i'm thinking of using revolvers or something with a swivel in them to relieve the stress. the rear has at least another 6 inches of travel before the limiting straps even start to go taught.

http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3378_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3380_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3382_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3385_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3394_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3395_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3397_IMG.jpg
http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3400_IMG.jpg

you didn't just THROW shat under that thing!! you got some work onder there.

looks sweet.

can't help with the prob, but it could be the pitman arm is too short.
steelman

actually, i was hinting that i think the pitman arm is too LONG. with the funking k link thingies, if you can see the drag link is almost parallel. i figured maybe the system shouldn't be completely parallel, as it steered better when it wasn't. we've adjusted the steering as much as possible in the tie rod, but just can't seem to get any more steering out of it. we can put more on one side or the other, but not more all together.

http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/123-2304_IMG.jpg

those with sharp eyes will notice quite a bit has changed since this old pic here, but the steering is still basically the same. see the extension way over to the left that lifts the drag link way off the tie rod? i'm not sure if this geometry robs the steering, but i'm open to suggestions.

thanks for the compliment.

Can you snap some closeups of the steering so we can see exactly what you have?

Hard to tell from looking at your pics but is your pit man arm faceing the tire on the passenger side, if that is the case that is why you have lack of steer, looks like you need a longer drag link to get your pitman arm in the right place. Don't know if I am writeing what I mean clear be easier with a picture but not able to do that.

http://www.outbackoffroad.net/galleries/aarons%20yj/images/133-3387_IMG.jpg

this is the next better pic. just a little bit better.

Its hard to tell from the angle of the pics, but it looks like the pitman arm is indexed all wrong, should be running front to back with the wheels strait. Do you still have those degree shims on the front axle? They look like they want to excape as soon as possable. As for the drag link being raised on the tierod, it will work, I have a similar set up on mine with a heim mounted in a double shear about 2 1/2 " above the tierod. Mine runs inside the spring tho, so the drag link is only about 16" long.

Looks like its gonna be pretty badass when the bugs are worked out.

Kwrangln

everything from the pic with the shims is gone. that was just kinda a mock up with parts we had laying around before we started cutting off the rear shackle mounts and everything. just wanted to see what it would look like.

Everybody is talking about the pitman arm indexing, if this was off it would steer real hard one way and very little the other way. You stated that is just didn't turn but 1/2 way each direction so drag link length and indexing is NOT the problem.

The problem as I see it is the drag link attaches to far away from the centerline of the ball joint, I had this problem and it took forever to get it right. I do not know how the new high steer arms will be built but you really need to move the drag link attachment point closer to the ball joint I had to wind up stacking my tie rod and my drag link to get full lock to lock steering. A longer pitman arm off an early bronco will help also. Here is a pic of my setup...

http://www.tpijeep.com/steerarm_004.jpg

Here is another shot before I beefed up the pass side, notice the drag link is level..

http://www.tpijeep.com/P1010270.JPG

HTH :D

I get what your sayen TPI and that is another area, but if the pitman arm is indexed faceing the tire will turn equal both directions but with alot less movement then if it is faceing the front or rear of vehicle. I dont know if the pitman arm is faceing the tire or not is hard to tell but sure looks like it.

this is a no-brainer, but noone has mentinoed it yet - Have you checked the steering stops??

Originally posted by cj7traildriver
I get what your sayen TPI and that is another area, but if the pitman arm is indexed faceing the tire will turn equal both directions but with alot less movement then if it is faceing the front or rear of vehicle. I dont know if the pitman arm is faceing the tire or not is hard to tell but sure looks like it.

Sorry, I cannot agree with you, I fought this battle for quite some time.

If you center up the steering box by counting the number of revolutions and turning it back half the number of revs to get the center of the steering box. Now from that point on a straight indexed pitman the pitman arm will be facing straight back, on an indexed arm it will be angled 20 or so degrees either way. Now with your tires straight the box in the center (reguardless of which way the pitman is facing) if you make your drag link the correct length to meet up with the center of the box throw with tires centered you will find that it will turn equal amounts each direction say 15 degrees left and 15 degrees right.

If you take the same setup make the pitman arm face toward the rear of the rig without reguard for whether the steering box is straight you will get a hard turn to one direction and very little the other direction but the total throw will be the same. You would get something like 8 degrees right and 22 degrees left.

Very Simply the indexing of the pitman are WILL NOT affect the total throw of the steering box, it is the length of the pitman arm and the distance the drag link attaches from the centerline of the ball joint that determins the total amount of steering.

I am not making this stuff up, I built (count them) 5 different sets of high steer arms in combination with 3 different pitmans to get mine to turn bumpstop to bumpstop with 8 inches of total throw at the tires..

Originally posted by TPIJeep


Sorry, I cannot agree with you, I fought this battle for quite some time.

If you center up the steering box by counting the number of revolutions and turning it back half the number of revs to get the center of the steering box. Now from that point on a straight indexed pitman the pitman arm will be facing straight back, on an indexed arm it will be angled 20 or so degrees either way. Now with your tires straight the box in the center (reguardless of which way the pitman is facing) if you make your drag link the correct length to meet up with the center of the box throw with tires centered you will find that it will turn equal amounts each direction say 15 degrees left and 15 degrees right.

If you take the same setup make the pitman arm face toward the rear of the rig without reguard for whether the steering box is straight you will get a hard turn to one direction and very little the other direction but the total throw will be the same. You would get something like 8 degrees right and 22 degrees left.

Very Simply the indexing of the pitman are WILL NOT affect the total throw of the steering box, it is the length of the pitman arm and the distance the drag link attaches from the centerline of the ball joint that determins the total amount of steering.

I am not making this stuff up, I built (count them) 5 different sets of high steer arms in combination with 3 different pitmans to get mine to turn bumpstop to bumpstop with 8 inches of total throw at the tires..

I agree totally with how to center the arm, and even that the arm doesnt have to be totally centered. But if the arm is ment to be centered and isnt, you'll hit the steering stops in one direction and run out of steering box travel in the other. Also, If the pitman is indexed wrong, it effectively shortens it as it is shorter (steering box shaft to center or drag link mount at arm) anytime it is not perpendicular to the drag link since it travels in an arc. Starting with a shortened pitman arm due to position will lead to the loss of steering as he described. I hope he posts up some strait shots and some more info to see whats what. Not tryin to piss anybody off here, just tryin to shine the light in a different direction.

Kwrangln

Ok TPI try this maybe we are sayen the same I dont explain very well and I dont doubt your knowledge. Im better with eyes and relation. And since I cant draw or show a picture of what I mean maybe you can make the picture from what I describe.

make a dot that represents where your drag link attaches to the knuckle. then draw a circle the circle represents the arc a pitman arm will go in all possible ways to have it mounted on. Now draw a line that would go thru the dot that represents the drag link mount on the knuckle straight thru the circle. Then draw a line 90 degrees from that thru the circle. You should see that you have more throw with the pitman arm faceing 90 degrees then you do with it aimed at it. With pitman aimed towards the wheels it will move the drag link more front and rear of vehicle then it does side to side. And with pitman arm faceing forward or back will move more side to side then front and back. But also aiming it back or forward has to be known if not correct the steering will be opposite what you steer.


this is best I can do for a picture below lol.
. o

I do agree that the distance from the ball joint center does affect turning ability but so does pitman arm direction. In fact if gear boxes turned more then they do like 180 degrees for just shits, by haveing the pitman arm placed wrong you could turn the wheel and it would start turning the wheel in the opposite direction. Thru all this Im assumeing you have the gear box centered and wheels straight when put together.

Again I may explain badly and will stop tryen to explain now. Oh Im not makeing it up either.

I agree with you CJ7, I understand the the "ratio" changes the further from the pitman is turned from perpendicular from the drag link.

I may be thinking wrong, I don't have a way to make a mock up but I believe that while the ratio changes the futher from 90 it gets (assuming it does not go past the point where it starts turning the tires back in) the total throw will be the same indexed or not indexed...

:)

If you are concerned about where the pitman arm is indexed, then just file the indexing splines so you can put it where ever you want.

oh my head hurts, and we haven't even started on the brakes.

now, if anyone was listening, it doesn't turn very far in either direction, so i don't think its the pitman arm. i figured it was the funky drag link to tie rod block we made. i just figured its all going to work when we put on the avalanche hi steer arms with spacers and heims and new tie rod and drag link. i was wondering if the overall LENGTH of the pitman arm had anything to do with it.

i will go get some good pics soon of the steering up close cause this is a nice technical discussion. i will post everything back up even after this thread gets lost to update whats going on and how i ( hope ) fixed it.

the longer the pitman, the better

Originally posted by 2stroke
the longer the pitman, the better

Yes, longer is better! :D