http://www.kingofthehammers.com/rulebook.php


http://www.kingofthehammers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2199#2199



After 3 months of writing and three different editors, I hope we can use this rule book for a long time before a revision. I apologize for the delay and getting them to you, our hope is to use this rule book for additional events down the road.

Be advised! BITD rules supersede our rules for the BITD V2R race.

We have made every effort to create a fair rule book, that will allow cars racing with Hammerking Productions Inc. To easily fit into existing sanctions events and classes.

It is our intention to use this rule book through 2010, and all events in which we are involved. Events that are co-branded with promoters or sanctions other then Hammerking, the more strict rule will prevail.

e.g. BITD, or CHCA.


Thanks

Jefe

As far as tech then, if we can get thru BITD then we should be fine for KOH next year?

As far as tech then, if we can get thru BITD then we should be fine for KOH next year?


Not exactly, but pretty damn close.

Thats cool, just tired of having to chage stuff around. Hopefully I get it close enough that it is just a couple things here and there and bam ready to go!:)

I just looked it over again, and we are missing a rule on the web page PDF.

I will update it asap.

the rule is as follows.

20.11: A winch capable of extricating the weight of your vehicle is required, and shall be in good working order.



Please be aware of this rule, we will update asap. Sorry for the confusion, so much for not making changes, that lasted 5 minutes.:D

I will add that winches are not required for V2R........

I hope:flipoff2:

I will add that winches are not required for V2R........

I hope:flipoff2:



good thing! the car you're driving doesn't have one :flipoff2:

Jeff and Dave, and whoever else helped out, I just want to say thank you guys for finally getting this rulebook published. I know it is a ton of work to get done, but it should really help all of your future events run very smoothly.

With that said is there somewhere we can download/print the PDF?

Yea, thanks. It is timely and it is well thought out. My biggest gripe? The web version has funny little O's were there should be quotes.

Is it available in a downloadable .pdf?

Yea downloadable/printable would be handy. Thanks Jeff

The only thing I couldn't figure out was the part about vehicle weight corresponding to minimum tubing diameter. So if I read that a 3500lb buggy cannot be made of 1.5" DOM? It has to use 1.75" DOM

At or about 7:7 my head exploded :laughing:

The only thing I couldn't figure out was the part about vehicle weight corresponding to minimum tubing diameter. So if I read that a 3500lb buggy cannot be made of 1.5" DOM? It has to use 1.75" DOM


Really they all should be 1.75" too many 1.5" have been failing even on moonbuggies

The only thing I couldn't figure out was the part about vehicle weight corresponding to minimum tubing diameter. So if I read that a 3500lb buggy cannot be made of 1.5" DOM? It has to use 1.75" DOM


That rule is going to have a bunch of people scrambling. Where is the best place to ask questions in regards to rules? This thread, new thread KOH forum? BTW could someone turn on my user name on the KOH forum?

15:7 about a "Parking brake".....
Does this apply to both manual and automatic transmissions?

Really they all should be 1.75" too many 1.5" have been failing even on moonbuggies


That is great except that 1.5" DOM is pretty much the standard in the rock crawling world and I would have to rebuild my chassis to compete again. Shit a ton of the buggies built for the race last year were 1.5".....

I just wanted clarification on this as it rules a ton of folks out.

At or about 7:7 my head exploded :laughing:


and 7.8 would have put the BFG remote pit up on the rocks on either side of the course this past year. :laughing:

EDIT:
8.3 right to seal or impound any entrant vehicle
8.4 assumes no responsibility for impounded vehicle


Can I run the impound for 2010, I'd like to closely examine a few entrants!!!!!!

and 7.8 would have put the BFG remote pit up on the rocks on either side of the course this past year. :laughing:

EDIT:
8.3 right to seal or impound any entrant vehicle
8.4 assumes no responsibility for impounded vehicle


Can I run the impound for 2010, I'd like to closely examine a few entrants!!!!!!

That is funny! I will volunteer my time to stand guard at the impound lot.:flipoff2:

I wonder how many will not meet the required floor under the seats. I don't know that it is even possible in my car:shaking: I was really looking forward to racing again this year!

Brandon Davis

Jeff and Dave

Am I understanding the many post here on pirate that both of you 2 are attempting to qualify for KOH?
Why aren't you 2 automatics?
How will you address the issues of racing in your own race?

You guys always handle issue great, I'm not starting anything just getting a grasp on the scope of things.

Jeff and Dave

Am I understanding the many post here on pirate that both of you 2 are attempting to qualify for KOH?
Why are you 2 automatics?
How will you address the issues of racing in your own race?

You guys always handle issue great, I'm not starting anything just getting a grasp on the scope of things.



:laughing: neither of them will be racing in KOH. since V2R is a BITD event, they can race in it for nothing more than the joy of racing in the class they invented.

To add a lil more perspective.... Jeff is racing in MY car, he doesn't even own an ultra4 racer at the moment... And Dave has posted more than once his car will be driven by someone else in KOH'10.

That is great except that 1.5" DOM is pretty much the standard in the rock crawling world and I would have to rebuild my chassis to compete again. Shit a ton of the buggies built for the race last year were 1.5".....

I just wanted clarification on this as it rules a ton of folks out.



Don't go scrapping your cars yet. We have a minor mixup. An outdated version got sent to our web guy.

The first indication was the missing text about the winch.

There are (just a few) other spots that are missing verbage.

In this instance, the entire tube sizing section is a 'guideline' not a rule.

We are not engineers, we are not going to tell you how to build your car.

Both Jeff and I are slammed today for work. We will address the issues and get them re-published by tomorrow morning.

When we get this squared, we will turn on the 'download' functionality.

Dave

Really they all should be 1.75" too many 1.5" have been failing even on moonbuggies

Got any hard facts to back that up? What about 1.5" chrome molly?

Let's not go introducing rules that cause everyone to have to build a new chassis shall we?

Thanks for the clarification Dave. Looks like we were posting at the same time. I'll refrain from any rules comments until the dust settles and we are all on the same page.

19.12 latch and link style quick-release buckle (no push button)

I have RCI's with a camlock. It's sfi 16.1 approved. Does it meet the requirements?

Dave/Jeff I'm not hounding you. You guys do a fantastic job! Thats why I'm asking these questions, I want to be involved in your organization.

Brandon Davis

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l191/rocmojo/harness.jpg

Jeff, Dave... ya knew it was coming :flipoff2:













































.:flipoff2:

Thats some funny shit DSI!

GODDAMN some of that is INCREDIBLY well written....

[QUOTE=ROCMOJO;10059330]19.12 latch and link style quick-release buckle (no push button)

I have RCI's with a camlock. It's sfi 16.1 approved. Does it meet the requirements?

Dave/Jeff I'm not hounding you. You guys do a fantastic job! Thats why I'm asking these questions, I want to be involved in your organization.

Brandon Davis

QUOTE]

They get packed with mud which makes them hard/impossible to un latch.

-Lucas

Mud.............never been to the hammers huh:laughing:

19.18: All driver restraint systems must be properly mounted in accordance with manufacture's directions and recommendations. Bolt-in, wrap-around, and snap-in mounting styles are permitted, except that seat-belts may not be mounted by wrap around method..:confused::confused::confused:

This makes it sound like they are not allowed....But then it goes on to say...

19.19.9 3-bar slides must be located as close as possible to the anchor plate, or if belt is wrap-around style, to the bar around which they wrap.


Rob

One other issue I have is the exhaust. Does it have to exit the rear of the vehicle. I dump mine out the front just behind the air shock on the passenger side.

Clayton

lol....All I know is that "Rockcrawlers" suck at rules!!!:flipoff2:

Now I need to go re-install ball valves on my new safety cell!!

Rob:smokin:

The changes in the last revision are subtle you may not be able to find them. Mostly word play, but the change of one word changes a rule quite a bit. I will be happy to address rules via our forum, as it will make it easier for others to refer to them.

Also please bear in mind we hope this rule book will carry us into the future of the sport. In some locations we have discovered a strange thing called moisture.:eek:


It is my promise to do my best to keep an open and objective mind regarding disagreements with rules and objections, but I ask you show a little tacked in your delivery. It was a daunting task for us to write this rule book, and it has become a fairly personal item. Billavista, deserves quite a bit of credit in enhancing, and limiting the subjectivity of the document, but indeed I assume items will be found that may need to be edited or clarified.

Lastly I apologize for the snafu with downloading rev 4. In my haste I sent the wrong revision to the webmaster. WE should have Rev 8 up on weds, and the download link working as well.

muchos gracias, el jefe~

As the race is expanding past the main KOH event at the Hammers, Jeff and Dave are really thinking ahead to other events such as the Right Coast Qualifier at Rausch Creek. Given that Will Carter said the RCQ was as hard as the race at the Hammers and he won the RCQ and came in 17th at the Hammers, i'd say you left coast guys might want to check out our wheeling :)

I don't really buy the arguments as to why a camlock 5 point can get gummed up but a latch and link can't. I never had problems with my old camlock harness but recently switched to a latch and link style. I switched knowing I wanted to race these events and the advice given by Billavista in his article but I hate the latch and link setup. They take forever to get into as compared to a camlock and I had mine come loose at least once during the race which never happened with the camlock setup. That is probably user error due to my frustration in how long they take to adjust, connect and then retighten. Also you can't get out of say just one shoulder strap to fix something then quickly reconnect.

For now I'm going to keep the L&L setup but to me it sounds like the rules prohibit only push button style release harnesses. Hard to tell whether that means camlock style?

Good job on the rules J D and Billa! I hope I get a chance to be teched by them some day again :)

Mud.............never been to the hammers huh:laughing:

As the race is expanding past the main KOH event at the Hammers, Jeff and Dave are really thinking ahead to other events such as the Right Coast Qualifier at Rausch Creek. Given that Will Carter said the RCQ was as hard as the race at the Hammers and he won the RCQ and came in 17th at the Hammers, i'd say you left coast guys might want to check out our wheeling :)

I don't really buy the arguments as to why a camlock 5 point can get gummed up but a latch and link can't. I never had problems with my old camlock harness but recently switched to a latch and link style. I switched knowing I wanted to race these events and the advice given by Billavista in his article but I hate the latch and link setup. They take forever to get into as compared to a camlock and I had mine come loose at least once during the race which never happened with the camlock setup. That is probably user error due to my frustration in how long they take to adjust, connect and then retighten. Also you can't get out of say just one shoulder strap to fix something then quickly reconnect.

For now I'm going to keep the L&L setup but to me it sounds like the rules prohibit only push button style release harnesses. Hard to tell whether that means camlock style?

Good job on the rules J D and Billa! I hope I get a chance to be teched by them some day again :)

Smiley,

I know of a few camlock belts that jammed with mud at the RCQ. I spent a bit of time trying to help Geoff Stoddard get his open.

As to why a camlock will get gummed up and a L&L won't? Just look at the general design. Once you get debris in the camlock have fun getting it out. A quick shake of of the L&L will clear pretty much anything.

I know that SAE Baja only allowed L&L belts. And having seen a few of those catch fire, I completely understand the rule.

Keep it Simple.

You are right. Hadn't heard about Geoff's issues with them. Actually I owe him a phone call.

I do understand why in principle the camlock design is more prone to problems since it is designed with hidden pockets you can't see into. at the same time IMHO if you have all five clips into the camlock I don't see where the mud is getting in from. Does a good graphite lube/powder help keep them working well? I fully admit I was new to L&L harnesses during the race but nothing frustrated me more than how long it took my co-driver and myself to get them reinstalled and tightened. Sounds like the camlock guys had all the same problems for different reasons. The mud/crap at RC made that race much harder for sure.

I guess I am interjecting my personal experiences with these harnesses rather than looking at it objectively from an engineering standpoint. So while I don't like this style harness, I'm glad Hammerking is willing to make firm rules for everyone's safety. :smokin:

Smiley,

I know of a few camlock belts that jammed with mud at the RCQ. I spent a bit of time trying to help Geoff Stoddard get his open.

As to why a camlock will get gummed up and a L&L won't? Just look at the general design. Once you get debris in the camlock have fun getting it out. A quick shake of of the L&L will clear pretty much anything.

I know that SAE Baja only allowed L&L belts. And having seen a few of those catch fire, I completely understand the rule.

Keep it Simple.

Mud.............never been to the hammers huh:laughing:



http://murphyslawmotorsports.com/image/finishline.jpg

the "Click here to download the Rule Book .pdf" link does not work on the rule book page... just redirects back to the rulebook page.

I have never liked to cumbersome latch and link style. As a co-driver I've scrambled to get my harness on while the driver eagerly pins the gas. Not as much of an issue with the camlocks. As for the mud, I have'nt had these issues with my camlock yet but I've only had them a year. Thats the frustrating part. Last year these were fine. I like many others want to compete even though we can't really afford to. I nearly went broke trying to meet the requirements for last years race and now I have to do it again. I know Jeff and Dave want the best for us and our sport. I just can't wait till we're all on the same page. Sorry guys I just had to vent a little:flipoff2:

the "Click here to download the Rule Book .pdf" link does not work on the rule book page... just redirects back to the rulebook page.

That is because the incorrect version is up (as posted earlier), the web guy has the correct now, as soon as he updates it, we'll turn back on the print functionality. We didn't want obsololete versions in print.

Dave

Sorry guys I just had to vent a little:flipoff2:


That's better than having to die a little. ;)

We didn't make any changes lightly. We deliberated for the last 5 months. This topic has consumed Jeff and we worked very hard to understand every angle.

That is because the incorrect version is up (as posted earlier), the web guy has the correct now, as soon as he updates it, we'll turn back on the print functionality. We didn't want obsololete versions in print.

Dave

apologies, didn't mean to get ahead of you guys.

apologies, didn't mean to get ahead of you guys.


No issue, the current version is now up.

There were significant changes from Rev 1 to Rev 8.

Sorry for the miscue and resulting heart palpitations:flipoff2:

As a co-driver I've scrambled to get my harness on while the driver eagerly pins the gas.

Which is unwise, dangerous, and would probably subject you to DQ.

Also, don't forget, in racing, belts aren't something you buy once and be done with. You will be buying them again every year or two (or at least getting new webbing installed, plus shipping two ways). Racing isn't cheap. Niether is your life.

No issue, the current version is now up.



Thanks Dave & Jeff.

Copies printed and bound for shop, truck, and the race trailer.

I have never liked to cumbersome latch and link style. As a co-driver I've scrambled to get my harness on while the driver eagerly pins the gas. Not as much of an issue with the camlocks. As for the mud, I have'nt had these issues with my camlock yet but I've only had them a year. Thats the frustrating part. Last year these were fine. I like many others want to compete even though we can't really afford to. I nearly went broke trying to meet the requirements for last years race and now I have to do it again. I know Jeff and Dave want the best for us and our sport. I just can't wait till we're all on the same page. Sorry guys I just had to vent a little:flipoff2:



Something else to concider here.... read the BITD rules, MORE, MDR, SNORE, BORE, SCORE, etc etc etc...

as "the new kids on the block" so to speak, Hammerking productions, the sanctioning body for Ultra4 class, and KOH have to follow the older, more established sanctioning body's safety guidelines, because piggybacking onto a BITD race (V2R) Ultra4 car's must meet BITD's safety requirements.

i hope that makes sence.....

Something else to concider here.... read the BITD rules, MORE, MDR, SNORE, BORE, SCORE, etc etc etc...

as "the new kids on the block" so to speak, Hammerking productions, the sanctioning body for Ultra4 class, and KOH have to follow the older, more established sanctioning body's safety guidelines, because piggybacking onto a BITD race (V2R) Ultra4 car's must meet BITD's safety requirements.

i hope that makes sence.....


It does, but we didn't blindly play follow the leader. Two Piece Suits, Different standards for cages, Dzus fasteners on the floor, exhaust routing... are all things that debated and decided to break from traditional Desert Racing rules and stuck with what we thought was best.

We didn't arbitrarily 'up' the requirements. We did so where we thought safety was compromised with the past rules. Fuel tanks the prime example.

Dave

It does, but we didn't blindly play follow the leader. Two Piece Suits, Different standards for cages, Dzus fasteners on the floor, exhaust routing... are all things that debated and decided to break from traditional Desert Racing rules and stuck with what we thought was best.

We didn't arbitrarily 'up' the requirements. We did so where we thought safety was compromised with the past rules. Fuel tanks the prime example.

Dave

:flipoff2:

I did read through them, and catch all the differences. but it wouldn't hurt to let everyone know that if they plan to race an Ultra4 in another sanctioning body with different rules, that would still be legal in KOH, that building to the higher standard, for the lack of better phrasing, would be a good idea?

maybe i'm just an idiot though :confused: :flipoff2:

I know you're going to exploit that comment Dave :blackflipoff:

Which is unwise, dangerous, and would probably subject you to DQ.

Also, don't forget, in racing, belts aren't something you buy once and be done with. You will be buying them again every year or two (or at least getting new webbing installed, plus shipping two ways). Racing isn't cheap. Niether is your life.

I understand this. I know that according to the rules every three years I need new harnesses. I did'nt buy the the camlock because it was cheap. They cost more. They were legal last year, I preferred them so thats what I bought. Jeff and Dave make the rules so I'll buy new harnesses. Enough said.... it's a dead horse at this point.

I noticed the dzus rule about floor panels and I just recently switched TO dzus tabs/fasteners for my firewall, trans pan and floors for ease of servicability during a race or on the trail. I guess the thought is that these won't hold up to something like a driveshaft impact or a trans blowing up like a bolt would? I lost a driveshaft right under my drivers floor panel and stuff bent but nothing gave. have you guys seen examples of dzus fasteners failing and causing safety issues?

Rocmojo got that heart sinking feeling over the harnesses (which I totally understand) and I must admit I got it when I read the dzus fastener rule but I'm starting to realize that if I was constantly working on my buggy before, racing it exponentially increases the re-work and maintenance :)

I must say the one piece firesuit rule makes 110% sense to me because a separate top is always going to ride up and leave your back exposed when you hop in the seat and strap in. but I'm sure its harder to find a one piece suit that fits right for many people and there will be grumbling about that as well. I lucked out and could try mine out at KOH 2009 with Loren from DJ Safety.

I understand this. I know that according to the rules every three years I need new harnesses. I did'nt buy the the camlock because it was cheap. They cost more. They were legal last year, I preferred them so thats what I bought. Jeff and Dave make the rules so I'll buy new harnesses. Enough said.... it's a dead horse at this point.

If they're still in Spec, you should still be able to get some money back out of them from a local stockcar, roundy round, mud bogger. Just digging for a silver lining for ya. ;)

I noticed the dzus rule about floor panels and I just recently switched TO dzus tabs/fasteners for my firewall, trans pan and floors for ease of servicability during a race or on the trail. I guess the thought is that these won't hold up to something like a driveshaft impact or a trans blowing up like a bolt would? I lost a driveshaft right under my drivers floor panel and stuff bent but nothing gave. have you guys seen examples of dzus fasteners failing and causing safety issues?

That's the one thing I was wondering about. I had bolts on my old car and hated it. Made it a pain in the ass to work on and not fast at all when there was a problem. New car I was planning on doing dzus but I guess I'll start searching for some 1/2 turn fasteners. :p

New car I was planning on doing dzus but I guess I'll start searching for some 1/2 turn fasteners. :p

I must say the one piece firesuit rule makes 110% sense to me because a separate top is always going to ride up and leave your back exposed when you hop in the seat and strap in.

Did you guys read the rules closely?

Two piece suits and Dzus fasteners are still legal

That's what I get for not reading all the new posts before I post. I was going off what I thought I read last night. :homer: Thanks Dave

If they're still in Spec, you should still be able to get some money back out of them from a local stockcar, roundy round, mud bogger. Just digging for a silver lining for ya. ;)

Thanks Wyatt. I thought I might hit up the local Jeep clubs. I'm sure I'll find a buyer for them. Hell they're still like new!

My apologies. Either I read the backreved version wrong or 1.08 is slightly different but 20.5 now clearly says dzus are discouraged. :homer:

Thanks Dave

Did you guys read the rules closely?

Two piece suits and Dzus fasteners are still legal

From my short career of competing the rules could not have been written any better.Enough suck up now lets get ready to race.:flipoff2:

19.18: All driver restraint systems must be properly mounted in accordance with manufacture's directions and recommendations. Bolt-in, wrap-around, and snap-in mounting styles are permitted, except that seat-belts may not be mounted by wrap around method..:confused::confused::confused:

This makes it sound like they are not allowed....But then it goes on to say...

19.19.9 3-bar slides must be located as close as possible to the anchor plate, or if belt is wrap-around style, to the bar around which they wrap.


Rob

Rob,

I can't speak for Jeff and Dave and their rulebook, but when I read those two rules, I see no contradiction.

I read the latter as if it said:


19.19.9 3-bar slides must be located as close as possible to the anchor plate, or if belt is wrap-around style (WHERE PERMITTED), to the bar around which they wrap.

FWIW, sometimes when writing rules the author must take into account revision control. That is, they wish to write the rules so that if something changes, the fewest edits need to be made. In this case, for example, should wrap-around style approval be changed to "ok for seat belts, not for shoulder belts" only the first rule need be edited, the second is still ok. It's an unealistic example, but I hope it make the point - that's why sometimes things seem structured a little wierd.


AFAIK, The reason wrap-around style isn't permitted by most bodies for seat belts is because:

a) Being mounted low and in a hard to reach area - it's hard to avoid chaffing and sliding and even harder to inspect
b) Almost nobody is ever going to have a bar down there at the right distance and angle to use wrap-around - so if you allow wrap-around, people will be really tempted to compromise on the install, wheras if you force them to make a bolt-in bracket, they may as well place it at the right distance / angle / and width.

Rob,

I can't speak for Jeff and Dave and their rulebook, but when I read those two rules, I see no contradiction.

I read the latter as if it said:


19.19.9 3-bar slides must be located as close as possible to the anchor plate, or if belt is wrap-around style (WHERE PERMITTED), to the bar around which they wrap.

FWIW, sometimes when writing rules the author must take into account revision control. That is, they wish to write the rules so that if something changes, the fewest edits need to be made. In this case, for example, should wrap-around style approval be changed to "ok for seat belts, not for shoulder belts" only the first rule need be edited, the second is still ok. It's an unealistic example, but I hope it make the point - that's why sometimes things seem structured a little wierd.


AFAIK, The reason wrap-around style isn't permitted by most bodies for seat belts is because:

a) Being mounted low and in a hard to reach area - it's hard to avoid chaffing and sliding and even harder to inspect
b) Almost nobody is ever going to have a bar down there at the right distance and angle to use wrap-around - so if you allow wrap-around, people will be really tempted to compromise on the install, wheras if you force them to make a bolt-in bracket, they may as well place it at the right distance / angle / and width.


We changed the word 'Seat' to 'Lap' to avoid confusion.

Wrap method on the shoulder harness = OK. Wrap method on the lap belt = bad juju

For Jeff and Dave's Sanity can people please read the "Document Conventions" on page 2 of the rules.

Once you have done that read it again. And again.

Then read the rules. They have done a great job at laying out the rules and choosing the proper language to word them.

I would also recommend that anything you are going to re build or redesign you take a close look at the wording of the rules regarding those components and strive to conform to the "will", "should" and "preferred" phrasing as there is a strong likelihood those will move up the chain eventually (definately with the "will" items) to requirements.

Then read the rules. They have done a great job at laying out the rules and choosing the proper language to word them.



Another 'language' definition.

By 'They', you mean Jeff and Billavista. 'I' ran like a scared school girl every time the subject of rules came up:flipoff2:

'I' ran like a scared school girl every time the subject of rules came up:flipoff2:

Ah, something we agree on! Do you think F-toys are gay yet? :laughing:

i got a kick out of the rule "forestry approved spark arrestors"...... thats the job I want, a forest ranger in Johnson Valley keeping an eye out for forest fires! Mufflers on race cars?? Afraid of keeping the neighborhood awake?

Mufflers on race cars?? Afraid of keeping the neighborhood awake?


You don't want to disturb the Desert Toruise, or hybernating Polar bears:flipoff2:

i got a kick out of the rule "forestry approved spark arrestors" thats the job I want, a forest ranger in Johnson Valley keeping an eye out for forest fires! Mufflers on race cars?? Afraid of keeping the neighborhood awake?


Johnson Valley isn't the only place we're racing. And we have an accountability to steward the land and resources as best we can.

Do you think F-toys are gay yet? :laughing:


Depends if Mello and I win the series this weekend:flipoff2:

i got a kick out of the rule "forestry approved spark arrestors"...... thats the job I want, a forest ranger in Johnson Valley keeping an eye out for forest fires! Mufflers on race cars?? Afraid of keeping the neighborhood awake?


BLM requirement anywhere in the USA, when on land under their stewardship

i got a kick out of the rule "forestry approved spark arrestors"...... thats the job I want, a forest ranger in Johnson Valley keeping an eye out for forest fires! Mufflers on race cars?? Afraid of keeping the neighborhood awake?




Well everone else jumped at you about the FOREST,I might as well jump to.On the way out to Calie last Feb we seented miles and miles of burnt black rocks somewhere in Arizona I think.So I guess they need a forest ranger to make sure the rocks don't burn up :grinpimp:






By the way congrats to you and Levi on the MOROC

For Jeff and Dave's Sanity can people please read the "Document Conventions" on page 2 of the rules.

Once you have done that read it again. And again.

Then read the rules. They have done a great job at laying out the rules and choosing the proper language to word them.

I would also recommend that anything you are going to re build or redesign you take a close look at the wording of the rules regarding those components and strive to conform to the "will", "should" and "preferred" phrasing as there is a strong likelihood those will move up the chain eventually (definately with the "will" items) to requirements.


Very intelligent advice... Nail on the head.

Well done guys.

so another ? about the chassis tubing size, So say we have a car that weighs in at 5000lbs and made of 1.5'' dom. If its properly gusseted and such there won't be an issue. That is up to the tech? Is there a place to send pre tech pics to make sure we dont prep a car that wont be able to pass tech from get go? thanks.

...I've scrambled to get my harness on while the driver eagerly pins the gas...
You should punch your driver in the throat and tell him not to be an ass.

Latch style belts make you feel like you're really racin' when you strap in...:D



Oh and... Hooray rules.

You should punch your driver in the throat and tell him not to be an ass.

Latch style belts make you feel like you're really racin' when you strap in...:D



Oh and... Hooray rules.


In desert racing i've alway's heard, and had practiced the 51% rule. When you're 51% in the car, it start's moving, so hopefully you were smart enough to loosen the belt's WAY up before getting out! :grinpimp:

It's an absolute bitch to read a GPS, gauges, and buckle in for that min or so it takes...

so another ? about the chassis tubing size, So say we have a car that weighs in at 5000lbs and made of 1.5'' Dom. If its properly gusseted and such there won't be an issue. That is up to the tech? Is there a place to send pre tech pics to make sure we dont prep a car that wont be able to pass tech from get go? thanks.

19.1: ROLLCAGES
It is each competitor’s responsibility to present a safe vehicle for pre-event technical inspection. Competitors must maintain their safety equipment including the roll cage integrity. Hammerking Productions Inc. reserves the right to not allow any cage designs that, in the opinion of the Chief Technical Inspector, is not fit for competition. Competitors are ultimately responsible for their vehicle’s safety features, including the design, fabrication, quality of execution, maintenance and repair of the roll cage structure. The roll cage is considered to be the main 6-point structure that surrounds and protects the vehicle’s occupants.

19.2: All vehicles must be equipped with a rollcage fabricated of 1020 mild steel mechanical tubing or better (higher carbon content or alloy steel). Minimum mild steel tubing guidelines for rollcage main structure, based on dry vehicle weight rating (DVWR) in race trim, not including occupants, are:


Please pay attention to the highlighted language. This is for mild steel construction only.

I have a Friend who was nearly killed two months ago when his cage failed. It was built from a combo of 1.5, and 1.75 DOM and non normalized Cromo. It has past tech for every KOH race. There is no way we can write a rule like this and expect to have it fail safe, so it is what we believe to be a good starting point in the construction of a chassis, or cage. Only you can decide what is right for you at this time.


For the sake of rules I do not believe my personal opinion about the weight of a car vs tube size is the end all in the grand scheme. Many have different opinions about the very subject, and there is no doubt in my mind that a competent engineer could build an extremely strong chassis using a smaller tube size then say a larger built in a back yard with a stick welder. There are so many variations to the equation. I am not an engineer, and going that deep into the rules would require us all to spend a lot of money. I expect as this sport moves forward and speeds climb higher, we may have to explore this as an option.

If you show up with a big heavy car with booger welded 0.95 hrew the tech inspector may not let you race. I will not be the tech inspector. We are attempting to outsource that duty to an industry leader. ARTS, all race tech services.

I hope this clears up the millions of emails, calls, and PM's regarding tube size.

Jefe

19.1: ROLLCAGES
It is each competitor’s responsibility to present a safe vehicle for pre-event technical inspection. Competitors must maintain their safety equipment including the roll cage integrity. Hammerking Productions Inc. reserves the right to not allow any cage designs that, in the opinion of the Chief Technical Inspector, is not fit for competition. Competitors are ultimately responsible for their vehicle’s safety features, including the design, fabrication, quality of execution, maintenance and repair of the roll cage structure. The roll cage is considered to be the main 6-point structure that surrounds and protects the vehicle’s occupants.

19.2: All vehicles must be equipped with a rollcage fabricated of 1020 mild steel mechanical tubing or better (higher carbon content or alloy steel). Minimum mild steel tubing guidelines for rollcage main structure, based on dry vehicle weight rating (DVWR) in race trim, not including occupants, are:


Please pay attention to the highlighted language. This is for mild steel construction only.

I have a Friend who was nearly killed two months ago when his cage failed. It was built from a combo of 1.5, and 1.75 DOM and non normalized Cromo. It has past tech for every KOH race. There is no way we can write a rule like this and expect to have it fail safe, so it is what we believe to be a good starting point in the construction of a chassis, or cage. Only you can decide what is right for you at this time.


For the sake of rules I do not believe my personal opinion about the weight of a car vs tube size is the end all in the grand scheme. Many have different opinions about the very subject, and there is no doubt in my mind that a competent engineer could build an extremely strong chassis using a smaller tube size then say a larger built in a back yard with a stick welder. There are so many variations to the equation. I am not an engineer, and going that deep into the rules would require us all to spend a lot of money. I expect as this sport moves forward and speeds climb higher, we may have to explore this as an option.

If you show up with a big heavy car with booger welded 0.95 hrew the tech inspector may not let you race. I will not be the tech inspector. We are attempting to outsource that duty to an industry leader. ARTS, all race tech services.

I hope this clears up the millions of emails, calls, and PM's regarding tube size.

Jefe

What's the reason behind the vague cage rules?

SCORE and FIA are very clear about cage rules.

What's the reason behind the vague cage rules?

SCORE and FIA are very clear about cage rules.


EDIT: I just noticed you are in Sweden.


Score contracts with Bill Savage to inspect and tag every race car. and you need to have it done often. He charges a fee, and assumes the liability. I assume that FIA does something similar. We are doing business in a state that is famous for litigation. Short of requiring every driver to get an inspection and pay a fee I don't see another way. IMHO the way that SCORE does it is a sore spot with most people. We are attempting to service our racers, and protect ourselves. Its a fine line.

We have considered setting up regional inspection locations with reputable builders, but felt at this time it did not make sense, as 5 different people may get 5 different types of design to pass or fail.

Hope that answers your question.

We have considered setting up regional inspection locations with reputable builders, but felt at this time it did not make sense, as 5 different people may get 5 different types of design to pass or fail.



Adam may be building a new car for 2010,if so could he have the chassie inspected by a local shop or someone you trust so we could give you and Dave the info (pics,tubing spec,etc)?Pops

Adam may be building a new car for 2010,if so could he have the chassie inspected by a local shop or someone you trust so we could give you and Dave the info (pics,tubing spec,etc)?Pops

Not required.

EDIT: I just noticed you are in Sweden.


Score contracts with Bill Savage to inspect and tag every race car. and you need to have it done often. He charges a fee, and assumes the liability. I assume that FIA does something similar. We are doing business in a state that is famous for litigation. Short of requiring every driver to get an inspection and pay a fee I don't see another way. IMHO the way that SCORE does it is a sore spot with most people. We are attempting to service our racers, and protect ourselves. Its a fine line.

We have considered setting up regional inspection locations with reputable builders, but felt at this time it did not make sense, as 5 different people may get 5 different types of design to pass or fail.

Hope that answers your question.

NHRA has a similar requirement for cars running below a certain elapsed time criteria. Chassis builders around the country are able to certify and tag a car legally meeting rule minimums. The only way to make an inspection process like this work for Ultra4 cars would to have a set number of roll cage designs engineered and approved. Seemingly not a difficult process, as a lot of the cars I've seen have 3 basic designs. I've seen some glaring errors on cage support from the top lateral chassis tube, from a "name" car builder, but that's a story for another day. So cage designs would have to be professionally enginered, and it seems as the speeds of these cars have accelerated, this may have to happen sooner rather than later. Speeds in the V2R will probably exceed lakebed speeds at KOH. Hopefully no one yard sales their car, and finds out the hard way their cage wasn't quite good enough. Just my couple of pennies.

I have a question about rule: 19.19.3 Driver restraint system must be used with a seat with the proper number of slots, in the proper locations, for the belts. Seats must not be modified to create belt slots.

Do the corbeau SS seats meet these requirements? The have one slot for the shoulder belts, two slots for lap belts and one slot for a sub belt
http://www.corbeau.com/product_images/baja_ss/black_vinyl_cloth/Baja-65402B-SR-XL.jpg

I have a question about rule: 19.19.3 Driver restraint system must be used with a seat with the proper number of slots, in the proper locations, for the belts. Seats must not be modified to create belt slots.

Do the corbeau SS seats meet these requirements? The have one slot for the shoulder belts, two slots for lap belts and one slot for a sub belt
http://www.corbeau.com/product_images/baja_ss/black_vinyl_cloth/Baja-65402B-SR-XL.jpg



Do you have a picture

Do you have a picture

He is running these seats.


http://corbeau.com/img/corbeau_suspension1.jpg

He is running these seats.


http://corbeau.com/img/corbeau_suspension1.jpg

I would also like to know. I am going to be running these seats soon, but if they aren't going to pass tech then i'm not going to buy them.

Cant see the picture for some reason? just black space, no red xx

Cant see the picture for some reason? just black space, no red xx

Here you go Jeff


http://www.corbeau.com/product_images/baja_ss/black_vinyl_cloth/Baja-65402B-SR-XL.jpg

And

http://corbeau.com/img/corbeau_suspension1.jpg

Probably these ones.

http://www.seats4cars.com/products/images/baja-ss_black_vinyl.jpg

I used to run them few years ago, now not bashing them by any means and they are a good deal for what you get, but, if you compare the bottom construction to others on the market you'll see what I mean.

What's everyone's take on the fuel cell rule?

I know the ATL type cells with a flexible bladder are as expensive as Paris Hilton's dog walker bill.

The rules say that a polymer tank in a can is acceptable. Does that mean that one could take a "cheap" Jaz-type plastic tank, build a steel or aluminum shell for it and pass Tech?

If so, that seems like a reaonable compromise.

cm "it's all about cost containment, not just fuel containment" k

What's everyone's take on the fuel cell rule?

I know the ATL type cells with a flexible bladder are as expensive as Paris Hilton's dog walker bill.

The rules say that a polymer tank in a can is acceptable. Does that mean that one could take a "cheap" Jaz-type plastic tank, build a steel or aluminum shell for it and pass Tech?

If so, that seems like a reaonable compromise.

cm "it's all about cost containment, not just fuel containment" k


Yeah you can get the cheap circle track type fuel cells like jaz or Jegs or build a box around a plastic tank. There are some specs on the metal thickness for the can. My 22 gallon jegs circle track cell was around $240 with no foam. I have not figured out what I am going to do for foam.

-lucas

What's everyone's take on the fuel cell rule?

I know the ATL type cells with a flexible bladder are as expensive as Paris Hilton's dog walker bill.

The rules say that a polymer tank in a can is acceptable. Does that mean that one could take a "cheap" Jaz-type plastic tank, build a steel or aluminum shell for it and pass Tech?

If so, that seems like a reaonable compromise.

cm "it's all about cost containment, not just fuel containment" k


Why would you buy a poly tank and then build a can around it?
Summit catalog page 53.

22 gal summit fuel cell $289.95
22 gal summit poly tank $134.95

I have to imagine you are going to have at least $100 in material to buld a can. What is your time worth?

I cant believe the amount of people who have asked me this question, so I am asking why. Not bashing. I can see someone who has scrap laying around or wants a better mounting system, but even if I had a tank already, I cant build a can for $300.00 bucks.. I bet there is $100 in just hardware and fittings.

So to answer your question. I dont think anyone will notice if you built a knock off.

Just to clarify;
the 2010 rule book does not require an SFI rating on your fuel cell or a date. But we may move toward that type of rating in the future.

I will stress. Do not go cheap when it comes to your safety.
2008 koh Drew Goldie's car burned half down (I would say a total) due to fuel issues
2009 koh Rob Booney's car burned to the ground. I dont know why, maybe trans fluid
V2R Dave Coles car burned. The Cold shot on board system saved the driver and the car. hyd. leak

Odds are that we will have a fire in 2010. 2009 we had multiple reported fuel tank failures. Multiple! Dont risk this.

The rules are not there because we have a sponsor that wants to make money off you. They are there because we have seen issues.

Rant off
Jefe

I have a question about rule: 19.19.3 Driver restraint system must be used with a seat with the proper number of slots, in the proper locations, for the belts. Seats must not be modified to create belt slots.

Do the corbeau SS seats meet these requirements? The have one slot for the shoulder belts, two slots for lap belts and one slot for a sub belt
http://www.corbeau.com/product_images/baja_ss/black_vinyl_cloth/Baja-65402B-SR-XL.jpg


Based on the picture above you could argue those are legal. A low back seat and seperate head rest would not have slots at all for the shoulder belts.

thanks.

Thanks Jeff.

You answered my 3 questions. I'm sure I will have more. But for now I am good.:D

Why would you buy a poly tank and then build a can around it?

What if one already has a poly tank? Then a simple, fabbed can is a relatively easy and cheap upgrade. Thank you for that option.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on all other points. I come from a circle track background where we took safety far more seriously (and spent a lot more money on it) than most rock sports ... and yet people still ocassionally got hurt.

Ken B.

Would someone Please download a copy of the 2010 rules. Would really appreciate a PM, but whatever help would be appreciated. I cannot get a look at the rules because the Net Nazi`s have decided that the KOH Web Site is immoral and indecent.

has anyone found a fuel cell in the range of 10-12 gallon that is not just a square jaz circle track type tank. I need something more like a 12x 24x 12 high. I need to find a cell that fits the rules and fits in place of the RCI tank I have now.

Would someone Please download a copy of the 2010 rules. Would really appreciate a PM, but whatever help would be appreciated. I cannot get a look at the rules because the Net Nazi`s have decided that the KOH Web Site is immoral and indecent.

PM me your email address and I will email it to you.

For us custom guy fuel cells, Ie moonbuggy guys has anyone searched around and looked at prices yet? We just got to the point where I am going to tear the buggy down next week and this is first on my list to do.

For us custom guy fuel cells, Ie moonbuggy guys has anyone searched around and looked at prices yet?

Good luck.

ATL will do custom bladders. http://www.atlinc.com/racing.html

Based on what they charge for "standard" cells with bladders, I'm guessing their custom pricing is one of those, "if you have to ask, you can't afford it."

Ken B.

I did a search and found ATL as well. $4k for a freaking fuel cell !?!? $3k for a replacement bladder. :eek: I'm definitely in the wrong industry.......

It would be cheaper to rework tubing for an RCI/JAZ/Summit cell than buy one from ATL or have a custom bladder made.

You guys are calling the wrong company.

I had my 62 gallon cell with all kinds of angles bladdered and foamed for 1800.

Not cheap, but 700 of that was foam. I can't imagine there's too many guys running a 60+ gallon cell

d

You guys are calling the wrong company.

I had my 62 gallon cell with all kinds of angles bladdered and foamed for 1800.

Not cheap, but 700 of that was foam. I can't imagine there's too many guys running a 60+ gallon cell

d

Ok Who did it for you?

has anyone found a fuel cell in the range of 10-12 gallon that is not just a square jaz circle track type tank. I need something more like a 12x 24x 12 high. I need to find a cell that fits the rules and fits in place of the RCI tank I have now.

This is exactly the size we are looking for too. Tons of searching and nada unless we have it custom made. For us, because the price of custom is so high, I think we'll cut the back apart and move stuff around. In our situation it's going to be some work, but the tradeoff is worth it...the reason for this new rule is pretty obvious.

So we don't get ahead of ourselves with the sawzall...does anyone know of any on-the-shelf tanks that not only fit the rules, but fit that size? 10x10x25'ish...12x12x24 would work too...???

Ok Who did it for you?

http://www.aerotechservicesinc.com/

This is exactly the size we are looking for too. Tons of searching and nada unless we have it custom made. For us, because the price of custom is so high, I think we'll cut the back apart and move stuff around. In our situation it's going to be some work, but the tradeoff is worth it...the reason for this new rule is pretty obvious.

So we don't get ahead of ourselves with the sawzall...does anyone know of any on-the-shelf tanks that not only fit the rules, but fit that size? 10x10x25'ish...12x12x24 would work too...???

Dustin, look at this cell from Speedway Motors. It is made by Jaz. I have the 16 gal. one that we are building the can for. We are standing it on end to make it work in my rear engine moonbuggy, I do not have to tell you how little space we have to work with. It is for a street rod application, and it does not break the bank.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Street-Rod-Fuel-Cell,2524.html

Dave,

Did Jeff ever talk with you about my other idea for a gas tank?

Ken B.

Dustin, look at this cell from Speedway Motors...

Thanks for the link, but those are the same issue, either too small or too big. We need between 13 and 16 gallons and the issue is we need something with dimensions similar to 10x25x10 to keep from cutting the car apart. We can go up to a 12x12x25 as well, but regardless, no luck yet.

And I know I have it easy...man, I cannot imagine having to re-do a moonbuggy!

I've got a cell plan for my moonbuggy. It's gonna look like ass, but for this case form will follow function. I'm leaving all the blng bling shiney things at home. I think I can get 19gallons.

I've got a cell plan for my moonbuggy. It's gonna look like ass, but for this case form will follow function. I'm leaving all the blng bling shiney things at home. I think I can get 19gallons.

Brian- We can paint your cell desert camo, so it will kinda blend in with the backdrop of the Hammers. LOL :laughing:

Thanks for the link, but those are the same issue, either too small or too big. We need between 13 and 16 gallons and the issue is we need something with dimensions similar to 10x25x10 to keep from cutting the car apart. We can go up to a 12x12x25 as well, but regardless, no luck yet.

And I know I have it easy...man, I cannot imagine having to re-do a moonbuggy!

Fuel Safe:

PC110 SM110 10 gallon 25.625" 10.125" 10.125"


This dimension is going to be 10 gal no matter who makes it.

OK, maybe I just can't read very good. But I don't see any mention of carrying gas cans? I assume it's the same rules as the fuel tank? I have a military spec metal gas tank, but will not use it if it's not allowed. I'm just trying to figure out how to gain more range without cutting my buggy apart again.

All fuel must be carried in an approved fuel cell. A Fuel cell is defined in the rules so I won't go into that.

You can have multiple fuel cells and transfer fuel between them.

Dustin, look at this cell from Speedway Motors. It is made by Jaz. I have the 16 gal. one that we are building the can for. We are standing it on end to make it work in my rear engine moonbuggy, I do not have to tell you how little space we have to work with. It is for a street rod application, and it does not break the bank.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Street-Rod-Fuel-Cell,2524.html



Does it say where the 3/8th's hole is? that might be the only problem.

Does it say where the 3/8th's hole is? that might be the only problem.

Nothing a #6 bulkhead fuel cell type AN fitting and a cap can't fix.

touche :D

Does it say where the 3/8th's hole is? that might be the only problem.

If the cell is sitting as they intend...9" tall...the hole is dead center on the top...so the way we intend to use it it will be halfway up facing the side of the rig. The way it is manufacturred this is the only place it can go. We're gonna find some way to plug it...not ideal but for our chassis it seems like our best option.

Why plug it? Sounds like a good spot to put the fuel pickup. I cant think of a reason why it needs to go in from the top?

use the stat o seals from speedway (or others) on the bulkhead fitting, they've worked great for us on a couple cars for years, like 6 or 7 years. Way better than the hard plastic crap the molded cells all seem to come with.

Based on the picture above you could argue those are legal. A low back seat and seperate head rest would not have slots at all for the shoulder belts.

Not trying to be a tool, just so I understand, I have a brand new pair of the EMPI seats with a headrest, they have slots for the Lap belts, Crotch strap and the shoulder belts go right under the headrest thru the headrest uprights, These are illegal???

Not trying to be a tool, just so I understand, I have a brand new pair of the EMPI seats with a headrest, they have slots for the Lap belts, Crotch strap and the shoulder belts go right under the headrest thru the headrest uprights, These are illegal???


19.19.2: Driver restraint must be matched to a properly constructed, fitted, and installed seat firmly mounted to the frame / chassis / roll-cage.
19.19.3: Driver restraint system must be used with a seat with the proper number of slots, in the proper locations, for the belts. Seats must not be modified to create belt slots.
19.19.4 All belts should be as short as possible to minimize the belt's stretch.
19.19.5 Belt routing must allow webbing to pull in a straight line against anchor point. Mounting brackets must be at an angle that is compatible with the direction of pull on the webbing.
19.19.6 Preferred anchor mount is a double-shear bracket.
19.19.7 Driver restraint systems must be mounted using high-quality hardware appropriate for the installation. 1/2" or 7/16" fine-thread Grade 8 bolts and Grade 8 deformed-thread locknuts (or better) are recommended.
19.19.8 Belts must not rub against any surface that will cause them to fray.
19.19.9 3-bar slides must be located as close as possible to the anchor plate, or if belt is wrap-around style, to the bar around which they wrap.
19.19.10 Belts using non-sewn anchor plates must be wrapped back a fourth time through the 3-bar slide.
19.19.11 Wrap-around style mounting should be confined to shoulder belt installation and must include some method to prevent lateral movement of the belts.
19.19.12 Lap belt tilt-lock adjusters must not be positioned in, or too close to, the seat slots.


These are the rules regarding seat belts. Does it fit this?

Hey Jeff,

So what do you think about that race date we spoke about on the phone Mon?

Brandon
SMORR

I have two minor questions, guess that means I am getting down to the short strokes!!

1. How closely is Art going to be checking the dates on our belts? :laughing: Do you think we can talk him into a a 3 month grace period...Belts turned 3yrs old 2 months ago :laughing:

2. I have not seen mention anywhere of the actual "top-up" cost for Main Event entry. In other words, how much extra money should a LCQ hopeful bring with them?

Thanks,

I have two minor questions, guess that means I am getting down to the short strokes!!

1. How closely is Art going to be checking the dates on our belts? :laughing: Do you think we can talk him into a a 3 month grace period...Belts turned 3yrs old 2 months ago :laughing:

2. I have not seen mention anywhere of the actual "top-up" cost for Main Event entry. In other words, how much extra money should a LCQ hopeful bring with them?

Thanks,

First, there is no Art anymore...

You are worried about two months, our belts don't have a tag on them....pretty sure they are only two years old, but the tag must have been torn off:(

The KOH entry is $750, we credit your LCQ entry inot the price. $500, to step up.

Belts need a date that is within the rules.

I have been reading the rules and before I build a firewall, do all rear mounted fuel cells need a fire wall even though it isn't mounted higher than my shoulder? (radiator is mounted behind the seats no higher than my shoulder and fuel cell is behind that)

Yes, you need a firewall.

17.2
There must be a substantial cross member and firewall between the fuel cell and the occupants.

20.3 is the specific rule on firewalls, read it VERY carefully.....

I got it Jeff, no need to respond. :flipoff2:

I was going to post something similar. As our radiator is right behind the passenger seat, so a firewall would block air flow.... what should we do about that??

Since the Rulebook is back to the top, I think any past competitor can answer this too...

But what format is the GPS file in? Is it for Lowrance use ONLY? Able to be uploaded to a Garmin, etc etc etc?

I was going to post something similar. As our radiator is right behind the passenger seat, so a firewall would block air flow.... what should we do about that??

My guess is ducting air to it or moving it, sucks either way.

I was going to post something similar. As our radiator is right behind the passenger seat, so a firewall would block air flow.... what should we do about that??

EDIT: Coolant being non-flammable isn't considered a firewall-necessary fluid; you can run the radiator without a firewall between it and yourself. Sorry for the confusion.

Since the Rulebook is back to the top, I think any past competitor can answer this too...

But what format is the GPS file in? Is it for Lowrance use ONLY? Able to be uploaded to a Garmin, etc etc etc?

Lowrance, but it can be converted with any of a few online utilities. If you have something other than Lowrance, I'd strongly recommend bringing a laptop with the appropriate conversion utility program (often downloadable for free) with, or arranging with somebody who has a laptop and the conversion utility, to help you out. It's a .USR file.

Lowrance, but it can be converted with any of a few online utilities. If you have something other than Lowrance, I'd strongly recommend bringing a laptop with the appropriate conversion utility program (often downloadable for free) with, or arranging with somebody who has a laptop and the conversion utility, to help you out. It's a .USR file.

http://www.gpsbabel.org/download.html

free and converts pretty much everything. It does support .usr files.

20.1 requires a firewall between occupants and any engine fluids, which would include coolant--can you use the firewall as an air duct to bring air from above/below/sides? How far is the radiator from the seats? Can you put the firewall directly against the seats, since it's not like you're getting air through the seats anyway?

Thanks Scott, thats what we were thinking last night;)

What are people going to do that have their rad's mounted high in the back above the seats??:(

Good question.

Our rad is mounted up high but far enough forward that we can't install a Firewall and duct enough air into the rad at the same time.

We only have like 2" between the back of the seats and the front of the Rad. With most of the rad above the seat level.

Good question.

Our rad is mounted up high but far enough forward that we can't install a Firewall and duct enough air into the rad at the same time.

We only have like 2" between the back of the seats and the front of the Rad. With most of the rad above the seat level.

I was thinking about guys like you.... How do you firewall that??:(

I don't think you do, I think you move the radiator.

Good question.

Our rad is mounted up high but far enough forward that we can't install a Firewall and duct enough air into the rad at the same time.

We only have like 2" between the back of the seats and the front of the Rad. With most of the rad above the seat level.

Does Dave Coles own car pass tech then? His car is all radiator behind the seats...its more or less his Firewall for the upper half of the car.

My transmission cooler is behind the seats above the fuel cell. but back farther...do I need to firewall off the whole back of the car?

Correction: I made a mistake in my reading.

You do not have to have a firewall between you and the radiator on a rear-mount radiator. The containment of the coolant in the radiator is sufficient. "Engine fluids" in 20.1 is intended to mean those that are flammable (oil, gas).

A firewall or shield between you and the radiator is still a good idea, but you don't have to have it to pass tech.

Sorry for the mistake on my part, I'll try not to do that again. :(

Does Dave Coles own car pass tech then? His car is all radiator behind the seats...its more or less his Firewall for the upper half of the car.

My transmission cooler is behind the seats above the fuel cell. but back farther...do I need to firewall off the whole back of the car?

Following in my prior correction of myself, no, you don't have to firewall your transmission cooler from yourself because it is rear mounted. If it were front mounted, you would need a shroud on it, but rear mounted, it's not required.

Sorry for the confusion.

Correction: I made a mistake in my reading.

You do not have to have a firewall between you and the radiator on a rear-mount radiator. The containment of the coolant in the radiator is sufficient. "Engine fluids" in 20.1 is intended to mean those that are flammable (oil, gas).

A firewall or shield between you and the radiator is still a good idea, but you don't have to have it to pass tech.

Sorry for the mistake on my part, I'll try not to do that again. :(

Thanks Scott. I don't envy your job.

So ummm uh what is your beverage of choice? I could leave aaaa um gift for you in the passenger seat ;)

:laughing:

Thanks Scott. I don't envy your job.

So ummm uh what is your beverage of choice? I could leave aaaa um gift for you in the passenger seat ;)

:laughing:

" It " better have a cute sister dammit. :D

So that means that I would only need a firewall up to my door bar right behind my seats, am I correct in thinking this?
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n77/jabnasty/DSCF1325.jpg

So that means that I would only need a firewall up to my door bar right behind my seats, am I correct in thinking this?
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n77/jabnasty/DSCF1325.jpg

It looks like if you run firewall to the top of your door bar (shoulder height) you'd be good.

It looks like if you run firewall to the top of your door bar (shoulder height) you'd be good.

I thought you just said you dont need a firewall between you and the radiator if rear mounted??? Or are you talking about something different?

I thought you just said you dont need a firewall between you and the radiator if rear mounted??? Or are you talking about something different?

I think I need one because of the fuel cell in the back.

I think I need one because of the fuel cell in the back.

Would somebody please explain the thought behind that rule?

I think I need one because of the fuel cell in the back.

Correct, you need a firewall between you and the fuel cell regardless of the radiator.

For example, in my car, my radiator is right up against the seats; my fuel cell is behind the rear axle. I could put a firewall anywhere between me and the fuel cell; since I have relatively much room between the radiator and the cell, I'd put it in there.

In JabNasty's case, I'm not sure where I'd put it, as his radiator is so close to both the seats and the fuel cell, no matter where he put it, he's going to be hurting for airflow, but it has to end up somewhere in between.

my fuel cell is literally 4 feet behind my seat. behind a large metal tool box, behind 2 coolers, and behind a battery. hell it's behind the rear axle at full bump.

my car has passed BITD tech 4 times. once in it's current fuel cell configurations, and twice by KOH. I will be adding the required splash guard, i just don't see the point of needing it when the tank's behind the axle...

Correct, you need a firewall between you and the fuel cell regardless of the radiator.

For example, in my car, my radiator is right up against the seats; my fuel cell is behind the rear axle. I could put a firewall anywhere between me and the fuel tank; since I have relatively much room between the radiator and the tank, I'd put it in there.

In JabNasty's case, I'm not sure where I'd put it, as his radiator is so close to both the seats and the fuel cell, no matter where he put it, he's going to be hurting for airflow, but it has to end up somewhere in between.

Why? The fuel is contained inside of a bladder inside of a metal firewall of its own. I just want to understand the rule.

I thought the original point of the rule was when the car was being fueled, there was no way of fuel accidentaly being splashed on the driver/co-driver.

my fuel cell is literally 4 feet behind my seat. behind a large metal tool box, behind 2 coolers, and behind a battery. hell it's behind the rear axle at full bump.

my car has passed BITD tech 4 times. once in it's current fuel cell configurations, and twice by KOH. I will be adding the required splash guard, i just don't see the point of needing it when the tank's behind the axle...

Large metal tool box = firewall? If it's large enough, it'd cover the firewall requirements. If it's not, adding a little bit more sheetmetal to it to make up the little difference will probably have you covered.

Why? The fuel is contained inside of a bladder inside of a metal firewall of its own. I just want to understand the rule.

I'll have to defer this one to those who debated it and wrote it; I've got assumptions, but I wasn't involved in this as anything more than a semi-retired racer back then.

my fuel cell is literally 4 feet behind my seat. behind a large metal tool box, behind 2 coolers, and behind a battery. hell it's behind the rear axle at full bump.

my car has passed BITD tech 4 times. once in it's current fuel cell configurations, and twice by KOH. I will be adding the required splash guard, i just don't see the point of needing it when the tank's behind the axle...

So your buggy has no firewall of anykind behind the seats like mine pictured above? If I dont need one I will not put one just because of space and airflow would like to figure this out before saturday because thats when its getting the interior torn out for floors and maybe rear firewall.

So your buggy has no firewall of anykind behind the seats like mine pictured above? If I dont need one I will not put one just because of space and airflow would like to figure this out before saturday because thats when its getting the interior torn out for floors and maybe rear firewall.



it needs one. I was just pointing out i have honestly over 48inches from my seat to the cell, and BITD calls it legal that way.

But i have some material to make a splash shield out of to meet the KOH rules. it will be removeable for after this race.

EDIT: Coolant being non-flammable isn't considered a firewall-necessary fluid; you can run the radiator without a firewall between it and yourself. Sorry for the confusion.

Just an FYI

coolant is indeed flammable

I've investigated 2 coolant fires this year

So your buggy has no firewall of anykind behind the seats like mine pictured above? If I dont need one I will not put one just because of space and airflow would like to figure this out before saturday because thats when its getting the interior torn out for floors and maybe rear firewall.

The firewall between the fuel cell and the occupants is a "must have" item, mentioned in the same breath as seatbelts, fire suits, and cages, when I've talked to Jeff about tech stuff. So it's important, it will be checked, and if you don't have it, you'll have to add it before you can start.

The firewall between the fuel cell and the occupants is a "must have" item, mentioned in the same breath as seatbelts, fire suits, and cages, when I've talked to Jeff about tech stuff. So it's important, it will be checked, and if you don't have it, you'll have to add it before you can start.

Scott-
Please find out why this rule is in place. What would be the point of a firewall being put "anywhere" between your radiator and fuel cell (on your own car)? The fire nor the fuel knows how to stay behind a piece of metal that would only be as wide as your chassis at the rear and as tall as your shoulders.

Scott-
Please find out why this rule is in place. What would be the point of a firewall being put "anywhere" between your radiator and fuel cell (on your own car)? The fire nor the fuel knows how to stay behind a piece of metal that would only be as wide as your chassis at the rear and as tall as your shoulders.

Jason,

I'll step in for Jeff on this one. Hopefully without misstepping ;)

When Jeff was compiling the rules, he did so with the intention that you could build to these rules and be able to show up at any of the events Ultra4 will race at. BITD and CHCA both have this firewall rule. Rather than build your car for KOH and then get the bummer news that it's not legal for the rest of our races, he tightened the belt one time.

The rules make my head hurt... but I'm confident that we've built them right so that we're not constantly making changes which do nothing but cost everyone money.

I asked Scott to be our Technical Lead because I knew no one in our sport that was better equipped to make a logical and unbiased decision on if a car was safe or not.


Sorry if that doesn't answer the question.

Dave

See I did not know scott was technical lead so mine will be getting a firewall

Jason,
The rules make my head hurt...
Dave


Its not the rules making your head hurt...its because you dont know how to drive and wrecked your shit.:flipoff2:

Dave, I just want to run KOH, not worried about BITD. If I changed my mind I would be happy to put it in later. My 22 gallon has been in the car for 6 years, in the verbage I have a firewall wateright sealed metalic seperating me from the cell. It's been great it's the can thats around the cell. It did pass Vorra tech twice.

Dave-
That answer works for me. We will have a suitable firewall in place!

Scott-
Thank you for taking this on. I hope I did not create any more stress than you already have. I truly appreciate you stepping up and being the Lead Safety guy for the greatest off-road race on earth.

Jason

Scott is the shiny new Chief Tech Insp. and I'm the Assistant Chief Tech Insp. ( for now ) :stirthepot:

Jeff call's me the " Tech Nazi " for some reason ? :evil: Not sure why....

Firewall/splash shield is there to help protect from getting fuel on you and keep fire off you in any way it can. There's plenty of reasons to have them, and none to not have them. Maybe it's me but i just don't get the issue with adding $20 of metal to a $20k+ vehicle that has to deal with personal safety ?

We can study pic's all day long and approve thing's, but passing actual tech is a different story. We cannot see everything from pictures alone, so meet or exceed the rule as best as you can because it only matters once your on the lake bed.

Hopefully you guy's will still share the love after the event is over. :goofball:

Scott is the shiny new Chief Tech Insp. and I'm the Assistant Chief Tech Insp. ( for now ) :stirthepot:

As soon as the angry mob buries me in a sand dune, you'll be the head. Might be sooner rather than later. :eek:

We can study pic's all day long and approve thing's, but passing actual tech is a different story. We cannot see everything from pictures alone, so meet or exceed the rule as best as you can because it only matters once your on the lake bed.

This is a good point. We can guess based on pics, but what looks good on a grainy pic on the internet doesn't always look so good in person.

In particular with regards to the fuel cell firewall rule, if anybody is unsure about whether their idea is good enough, it's pretty safe to overshoot too high with it. You can always bend it down later if it doesn't need to be as tall as it is, but adding more to it on the lakebed when you could be prerunning, won't be near as easy or as fast.

just when I thought I was done spending money...

20 lbs of Costco's cheap Kidde fire extinguishers are about $150 out the door.

Double that for two pits. Well, forget that, one mobile pit for sure, now.

They have to be replaced EVERY F'ING YEAR !!! ?

Yeah, I know, I know, better to be safe then sorry. :shaking:

So there is going to be A LOT of extinguishers at each pit (which will all be worthless next year)

It seems to me that if a fire broke out in a pit that different pit crews MIGHT COMBINE resources to extinguish it. I know I would.

I know I'm going to be told about the dangers of fires and how infective the extinguishers are or if I don't want to race someone will take my place, bla, bla, bla. But the truth is, the money hemorrhaging is getting tiresome for a 100:1 odds race.

Rant off.

e for a 100:1 odds race.

Rant off.

U'mmm...JR...your odds are better than that bud. Remember, I'm one of those 100...and let's not forget Pistol...that makes it like 98:1. :flipoff2:

Double that for two pits. Well, forget that, one mobile pit for sure, now.

They have to be replaced EVERY F'ING YEAR !!! ?
.

Thanks for reminding me.
The current year thing does bother me, normal inspection is 5 years, and the most anal of IT dept with $$$$$ worth of servers do them 3 years.

I would like to see this graced to 2-3 years as well.

just when I thought I was done spending money...

20 lbs of Costco's cheap Kidde fire extinguishers are about $150 out the door.

Double that for two pits. Well, forget that, one mobile pit for sure, now.

They have to be replaced EVERY F'ING YEAR !!! ?

Yeah, I know, I know, better to be safe then sorry. :shaking:

So there is going to be A LOT of extinguishers at each pit (which will all be worthless next year)

It seems to me that if a fire broke out in a pit that different pit crews MIGHT COMBINE resources to extinguish it. I know I would.

I know I'm going to be told about the dangers of fires and how infective the extinguishers are or if I don't want to race someone will take my place, bla, bla, bla. But the truth is, the money hemorrhaging is getting tiresome for a 100:1 odds race.

Rant off.

JR - Ima play the other side of the fence from my usual.

Say your team in particular doesn't have a pile o' extinguishers.

If an inspector comes around and hassles you, you say; "Where are we?"

And they say "The XYZ pits"

And you say, casting an arm across a wide expanse of other teams assembled in the area, "The rule says the "pit" must have x amount of fire extinguisher manned. Well, we are in "the pit" and I bet if you walk around you will find x amount manned and tagged and ready to go".

I dunno, maybe the rule is actually meant to mean that - in other words, your team may only persoanlly need x amount if you have an exclusive remote pit (which may not even be allowed in KOH but may be allowed in other Ultra-4 races??)

I don't even want to know what the border guards are going to think of me, dragging all this extra stuff down with me...:laughing:

I don't even want to know what the border guards are going to think of me, dragging all this extra stuff down with me...:laughing:

We can make it 97:1 if someone will just call Dept. Of Homeland Security and get a Mr. Chris Pook on a watch list. :flipoff2: And make sure they do a body cavity search :laughing:

I like the fire extinguisher in the pit rule. Seriously, hot car, getting fuel dumped in it. You need it. But 1 year tagged/certed. COME ON!!! A test and a fill is $50 here in Houston, and is required every 5 years to be legit. Why not make it 1 month. I mean if the intent is to have an extinguisher thats current and works when needed. My chase truck has a 20lb mounted on it now, I'll have to check the cert but there is no way its under 1 year since it was last tested. And to be honest, I'm not sure even if I dropped it off today I'd have it back from testing before I need to head west. BTW, I'm not even racing, just helping pit for some buddy's.

just when I thought I was done spending money...

20 lbs of Costco's cheap Kidde fire extinguishers are about $150 out the door.

Double that for two pits. Well, forget that, one mobile pit for sure, now.

They have to be replaced EVERY F'ING YEAR !!! ?

Yeah, I know, I know, better to be safe then sorry. :shaking:

So there is going to be A LOT of extinguishers at each pit (which will all be worthless next year)

It seems to me that if a fire broke out in a pit that different pit crews MIGHT COMBINE resources to extinguish it. I know I would.

I know I'm going to be told about the dangers of fires and how infective the extinguishers are or if I don't want to race someone will take my place, bla, bla, bla. But the truth is, the money hemorrhaging is getting tiresome for a 100:1 odds race.

Rant off.

Man, these rules keep popping up on me too. Just when I think I have everything squared away someone else brings something to my attention...

JR - Ima play the other side of the fence from my usual.

Say your team in particular doesn't have a pile o' extinguishers.

If an inspector comes around and hassles you, you say; "Where are we?"

And they say "The XYZ pits"

And you say, casting an arm across a wide expanse of other teams assembled in the area, "The rule says the "pit" must have x amount of fire extinguisher manned. Well, we are in "the pit" and I bet if you walk around you will find x amount manned and tagged and ready to go".

I dunno, maybe the rule is actually meant to mean that - in other words, your team may only persoanlly need x amount if you have an exclusive remote pit (which may not even be allowed in KOH but may be allowed in other Ultra-4 races??)

This (in bold above) is something that needs to be addressed. Does each team have to have 40 lb worth of extinguishers or is it between everybody in a pit at any given time? We plan to have some guys help us with the stops at the main pits in case we can't make it back. I'm wondering if we need to buy them their own 40lb worth of extinguishers or just 2 5 lb. extinguishers to man while they dump gas in the car.

Within the designated area's for pit's, each team/car is considered it's own " pit area ". A group of 10 team's is NOT considered 1 pit area rather 10 separate pits and each team will be required to have the proper amount of safety equipment per the rule's.

1 year cert requirement is just plain dumb... you have all the power to enforce it, but that doesn't make it any less silly.

Are you sure about that Matt? Billavista is one of the people who wrote the rules and he seems to be pretty much telling teams how to explain their way around the intent you think the rule has. Every time I talk to other teams they are almost more focused on the rules than race prep. they try to become lawyers and wordsmith their way around the rules.

it would be nice if the rules were reasonable and the competitors were reasonable about working within them.

Guess I'm off to the homo depot :flipoff2:


Within the designated area's for pit's, each team/car is considered it's own " pit area ". A group of 10 team's is NOT considered 1 pit area rather 10 separate pits and each team will be required to have the proper amount of safety equipment per the rule's.

:laughing:

I'm not trying to interpret anything,, those are the word's from the " King of King's " as i asked him that very question a half hour ago.

I think i might have to have a few of those for sale at tech, $100 a piece. :flipoff2:

I've got a call into Jeff for understanding on the one year rule... but I can tell you how I handle this both at KOH and BITD.

I carry at least ten pounds of fire extinguishers on my car anyway. They are in the form of ColdFire (manned by the co driver), and a five pounder mounted to the front of the chassis where the Pit Boss stands throughout the pit stop.

I have another 2.5 extinguisher mounted right next to where the car is fueled as well, but I don't count that as manned during a pit.

I have one ten pound extinguisher per pit vehicle.

I have been buying the disposable extinguishers in the past but this time around, i'm buying from a commercial distributor where I can have them recertified without having to buy new.

Dave

....ahhhh, the drama :flipoff2:

Dave, I just want to run KOH, not worried about BITD. If I changed my mind I would be happy to put it in later. My 22 gallon has been in the car for 6 years, in the verbage I have a firewall wateright sealed metalic surface seperating me from the cell. It's been great, it's the can thats around the cell. Also my rack seperates us from the cell vertically and the can vertically as well

Before we get on the fire ext.'s can I get a decision on this.

Before we get on the fire ext.'s can I get a decision on this.

A fuel cell can is not a firewall; you need a separate piece of metal from shoulder height (or higher if the fuel cell is higher) to floor, and side to side.

Thanks Scott, it's going to be ugly

Thanks Scott, it's going to be ugly

We wouldn't expect any less from you:flipoff2:

I think the rules are pretty good, at least they are a solid source to follow with minimum grey area. Try building a class legal car for some of the limited classes in score, just figuring out what motor you can run is a history research excercise and a gamble still at that.

Not saying that some things like the 1 yr rule on a fire extinguisher is OK by me, I think that could be stretched a little without getting dangerous.

We wouldn't exspect any less from you:flipoff2:

I'll wave as I go by. I'll even give you the option to hook on the strap again:laughing:

One could say that the cars portable extinguishers could count as part of the total amount needed and I would say that is why the additional amount is called for. Too bad that logic has to play a back seat in rule writing huh?:homer:

Regardless, It seems Daves Fire still required additional extinguishers and a fair amount of Silt to save his car. Its your car, How bad to you want to save it? Seems we had a fire out there just today on the lake bed. Something that seems to be a pattern. I don't want to have a third year of burned down car at KOH.

Look, I did the best I could to make the rules work with 4 different sanctions so we could have one set and not have to make a bunch of changes all year, something that historicly seems to be a sore spot.

I only can do the best I can. Remember I never wanted rules, but we proved in 2009 that we needed them. We are crossing multiple sanctions for 2010.


Side note: Most all of our cars will not pass SCORE Tech even with all the new rules, and people still asked weekly if we will be able to race Ultra4 at the Baja 1000. You can't have your cake and eat it too.:D

I'm just glad that Scott and the Tech Nazi are all over this. Soon they will be the punching bags.:flipoff2: If they don't get scared off?

Thanks Scott, it's going to be ugly
Tom, wait 'till you see my baffle abortion :laughing:


About the extinguishers, it made my wallet pissed at first, but I'm over it.
I'm seriously thinking about sharing pits with another team? Is this a bad idea?
I'll have to check the rules.

About the extinguishers, it made my wallet pissed at first, but I'm over it.
I'm seriously thinking about sharing pits with another team? Is this a bad idea?
I'll have to check the rules.

I think you can do this. Depending on what you can collect for fire extinguishers and staff to "man" them, you may not be able to "pit" more than one car at a time, but I can't see any reason you couldn't do one and then another.

We need to know what the definition of a man'd fire extinguisher is.

Can the guy changing a tire have it sitting next to him while he's torquing the lug nuts and be considered on the job of putting out a fire? If there is no work being done to the fuel system and no fuel is being dumped in do you need more than that?

We need to know what the definition of a man'd fire extinguisher is.

Can the guy changing a tire have it sitting next to him while he's torquing the lug nuts and be considered on the job of putting out a fire? If there is no work being done to the fuel system and no fuel is being dumped in do you need more than that?

From 7.9, "a minimum of 10lb worth of fire extinguisher(s) must be manned during all pit stops..."

I'm not sure pit stop tech is supposed to be my department, so if I'm stepping on toes here, hopefully Jeff and/or Dave will enlighten me.

For purposes of pit stops, knowing that very few of us have enough pit staff to where we can task one guy in each pit with "you're the fire extinguisher guy, that's all you do", I would think that within arm's reach is "manned" enough. That doesn't mean ten feet away and he can jump and grab it, but rather, he sets it next to himself, tightens the left front lugnuts, then picks it up, takes it with, and sets it next to himself to tighten the left rear lugnuts.

Obviously, if there is "extra" manpower available, having a fireman and a fuel man as separate jobs would be preferable, but I know some race teams are calling favors to get enough friends to come along, to where they can have even one crew member in each pit.

I would argue that because they can't reasonably see more than half the vehicle while belted in, cannot reach/extinguish even that much of it, and in the case of a fire, the occupants of the vehicle need to concentrate on getting out, not on putting the fire out, they cannot "man" a pit stop fire extinguisher from within the vehicle, but can if they get out first.

Hopefully common sense (on both parts...racers/crew, KOH staff) will prevail. I am pretty sure it will, but its really hard to use "Hope" in the rules:flipoff2:


Rob

Look, I did the best I could to make the rules work with 4 different sanctions so we could have one set and not have to make a bunch of changes all year, something that historicly seems to be a sore spot.




And you did an admirable job Jeff. Your rules are more thorough, clear, and reasonable than virtually any I have seen - including a lot of Air Force rules I am familiar with from several different countries.

They may not please everyone, they never will, but that isn't the aim.

I laugh at the irony - many have complained in the past that Rock Sports aren't more professional, haven't taken off more, don't draw more spectators... and here you and Dave come along, and in a remarkably short time build something incredible with huge draw and popularity and in the most professional manner (a part of which is comprehensive and sometimes-strict rules) and people bitch and whine that the rules require a commitment and investment more than they are used to for a weekend trail ride??

Which do people want - cake, or eat it...you can't have both!

I know what it is to struggle - we don't have the big sponsor cutting cheques, shit I've remortgaged my house and have a CC bursting at the seams and we're bringing a crew of 7 or 8 guys 5,600 miles round trip from Canada, plus hauling the rig from New York to Cali, etc. etc. to do this.

Oh - and just in case anyone thinks I'm just sucking-up here - I don't like the fire extinguisher date rule anymore than anyone else does - but I do agree with the quantity and being manned - as a MINIMUM.

small tech safety tidbit - crew should think carefully about what they do simultaneously with fuelling. For example, I would be wary of doing anything electrical or anything that could cause a spark during fuelling.

So what is the difference between splash shield and firewall. I didn't see splash shield in the rules anywhere.

so will my single layer fire suit do if I promise not to start on fire?

For purposes of pit stops, knowing that very few of us have enough pit staff to where we can task one guy in each pit with "you're the fire extinguisher guy, that's all you do", I would think that within arm's reach is "manned" enough.

Obviously, if there is "extra" manpower available, having a fireman and a fuel man as separate jobs would be preferable, but I know some race teams are calling favors to get enough friends to come along, to where they can have even one crew member in each pit.

I've got 6 or 8 friends coming down just to see the event--all good gear heads with capable rigs--and they would probably be interested in helping a team who is traveling from a long distance short-handed---or maybe racing LCQ and not bringing a full crew and suddenly gets one of 25 spots and needs a crew!

Maybe someone should start a "chase/pit help wanted/available" thread! :smokin:

So what is the difference between splash shield and firewall. I didn't see splash shield in the rules anywhere.

The term "splash shield" has been used by various people to refer to either the surround around a remote fuel fill cap (rule 17.10) or the firewall between the fuel cell and the occupants (rule 20.3). As far as I know, those are the only two things "splash shield" has been used to describe, but I could be wrong.

I know we're all trying to remember to use the appropriate specific terms, but occasionally, we fall back into a comfort zone where we just call it something generic and assume that whoever we're talking to, knows what we mean.

so will my single layer fire suit do if I promise not to start on fire?

Single layer fire suit is sufficient to pass tech. Two layer or better is highly recommended, but not required.

Single layer fire suit is sufficient to pass tech. Two layer or better is highly recommended, but not required.

Thanks !

So what is the difference between splash shield and firewall. I didn't see splash shield in the rules anywhere.

The splash shield is for when you're filling the car in the pits. It keeps gas splits off the back of the seats or from pooling into a chassis cavity, or dumping on an exhaust, and diverts any spillage outside of the car. It is important...especially when people are rushing.

A fuel cell can is not a firewall; you need a separate piece of metal from shoulder height (or higher if the fuel cell is higher) to floor, and side to side.


Scott, Can I get a clarification. I don't see where the rule states the firewall has to be shoulder height. The only height specification given is a conditional one (IF the fuel cell is higher than the driver's shoulders.)

Our fuel cell is lower than the driver's shoulders. Our firewall therefore extends vertically from floor to level with the top of the fuel cell, and laterally from bulkhead to bulkhead (side to side).

The two rules in question are:

17.2... There must be a substantial cross member and firewall between the fuel tank and the occupants.

20.3 If rear mounted fuel cell is higher than driver's shoulder height, a firewall between the driver and the fuel cell must extend at least 2" above the top of the fuel cell.

To recap. The top of our fuel cell is about 2-4" below the height of the driver's shoulder, and the firewall is level with it.

I believe we are compliant with the rules. Please confirm.

Many thanks.

The three Ultra 4 class fires that I can remember all seemed preventable. Competitors, race prep the crap out of your cars!

Scott, Can I get a clarification. I don't see where the rule states the firewall has to be shoulder height. The only height specification given is a conditional one (IF the fuel cell is higher than the driver's shoulders.)

Our fuel cell is lower than the driver's shoulders. Our firewall therefore extends vertically from floor to level with the top of the fuel cell, and laterally from bulkhead to bulkhead (side to side).

The two rules in question are:

17.2... There must be a substantial cross member and firewall between the fuel tank and the occupants.

20.3 If rear mounted fuel cell is higher than driver's shoulder height, a firewall between the driver and the fuel cell must extend at least 2" above the top of the fuel cell.

To recap. The top of our fuel cell is about 2-4" below the height of the driver's shoulder, and the firewall is level with it.

I believe we are compliant with the rules. Please confirm.

It sounds like you're in the clear if your fuel cell is that low and the firewall goes at least to the height of the top of the fuel cell.

The splash shield is for when you're filling the car in the pits. It keeps gas splits off the back of the seats or from pooling into a chassis cavity, or dumping on an exhaust, and diverts any spillage outside of the car. It is important...especially when people are rushing.

Ok then what's the spec on how big it needs to be? I understand the principal, just wonder how far to take some of this stuff.

Still don't understand what good a rear firewall does when it only has to go fuel cell height.

Still don't understand what good a rear firewall does when it only has to go fuel cell height.

Its on the same line as a tranny cooler not being considered flamable:laughing: Thats how I start camp fires:flipoff2:

Maybe fuel knows where the firewall's are, and only burn down....that way we don't need a taller wall:p

The rule as I read it requires this firewall to go from floor to top of fuel cell, and side of vehicle to side of vehicle, unless the fuel cell is higher than shoulder high, in which case, it requires 2" above the top of the fuel cell.

If you don't have floor as far back as your fuel cell is, we'll have to guess at where floor would be; realistically, in that scenario, we'll be expecting to see firewall from at least bottom of fuel cell to top of fuel cell and side of vehicle to other side of vehicle.

The idea, as I understand it, is that a burning or ruptured fuel cell can't spray fuel directly onto the vehicle occupants. A fire above such a firewall will (hopefully) be protected-from at a greater level by the occupants' helmets, than what the seatbacks and firesuits collectively provide, giving a better chance of safely exiting the vehicle prior to becoming well-done.

The filler neck splash shield doesn't really have a spec on how big it has to be. It just needs to direct fuel spills away from the vehicle, rather than allowing them to run back down the filler hose and puddle on top of the fuel cell. About the minimum of this that I've seen is the Nascar fender fill style fill cap assemblies, with a D shaped panel a little bigger than the fender filler, attached to a down bar or the like. Any fuel spilling off of that should dribble off onto the fuel mat (remember, no fuel on the ground makes BLM like us). If it stands to dribble off of that into a back seat area where you have floor, as opposed to dribbling through the back end of a tube car, then the splashguard needs to continue downward far enough that fuel running out of the fill cap area runs down it to at least the outside of the quarterpanel instead of into the back seat.

Talking with JT last night and every brand new Jimco class 1 car that Harrah as in his stable you are sitting on top of the cell. With the can seperating you from the bladder. There isn't any additional firewalls under you feet. This rule is confusing,misdirected.

Scott,

Here is our implementation of the fuel filler splash guard. I believe we meet both the intent and the letter of the law, can you offer an opinion?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Joint_Force_Racing/fuelling%20splash%20guard_resize.jpg

you are sitting on top of the cell. With the can seperating you from the bladder. There isn't any additional firewalls under you feet. This rule is confusing,misdirected.

The can is considered part of the fuel cell safety equipment and only that. It is in no way considered to be a firewall or shield.

If the fuel cell is under the seat, you should have a floor between you and it acting as the firewall.

The rule's can't be made with every single mounting point for every application in mind. It would be more confusing that what it already is. The intent is to " make it safe ".

Stand back, take a look at your rig and ask yourself where you don't want fuel or fire to go and add a shield.

The can is considered part of the fuel cell safety equipment and only that. It is in no way considered to be a firewall or shield.

If the fuel cell is under the seat, you should have a floor between you and it acting as the firewall.

The rule's can't be made with every single mounting point for every application in mind. It would be more confusing that what it already is. The intent is to " make it safe ".

Stand back, take a look at your rig and ask yourself where you don't want fuel or fire to go and add a shield.

Matt, don't take this the wrong way but who are you? I haven't read the whole thread and figured out why you are answering my tech question. Let me tell you that in the last 5000 trail/race miles, the summit cell has worked perfectly. Doubled up on the rollover valves plus added a flapper/45. Plus ball valves added in the system via last year rules. It also worked twice in the last 2 KOH and 2 VORRA races this past season as well. The car's been rolled at every speed imaginable. With that track record I am comfortable saying my car is more safe enough without you telling to add extra crap.
I would much rather have more additional fire apparrel ie. shoes,gloves,balaclava,underwear then focusing on the car as the issue. I spent my safety budget on a defender head and neck restraint. That is hard on a limited budget.

Matt, don't take this the wrong way but who are you? I haven't read the whole thread and figured out why you are answering my tech question. Let me tell you that in the last 5000 trail/race miles, the summit cell has worked perfectly. Doubled up on the rollover valves plus added a flapper/45. Plus ball valves added in the system via last year rules. It also worked twice in the last 2 KOH and 2 VORRA races this past season as well. The car's been rolled at every speed imaginable. With that track record I am comfortable saying my car is more safe enough without you telling to add extra crap.
I would much rather have more additional fire apparrel ie. shoes,gloves,balaclava,underwear then focusing on the car as the issue. I spent my safety budget on a defender head and neck restraint. That is hard on a limited budget.
Matt is the Rausch Creek saftey/rules guy for the RC Race series. He is taking a serious interest in this because he will be involved in the RCQ inspections this year.

All this fuel cell shit makes me so glad I'm on propane:D:D:flipoff2:

All this fuel cell shit makes me so glad I'm on propane:D:D:flipoff2:

Your F-Toy makes life so damn easy...



:dustin:

Matt, don't take this the wrong way but who are you? I haven't read the whole thread and figured out why you are answering my tech question. Let me tell you that in the last 5000 trail/race miles, the summit cell has worked perfectly. Doubled up on the rollover valves plus added a flapper/45. Plus ball valves added in the system via last year rules. It also worked twice in the last 2 KOH and 2 VORRA races this past season as well. The car's been rolled at every speed imaginable. With that track record I am comfortable saying my car is more safe enough without you telling to add extra crap.
I would much rather have more additional fire apparrel ie. shoes,gloves,balaclava,underwear then focusing on the car as the issue. I spent my safety budget on a defender head and neck restraint. That is hard on a limited budget.



While I agree with you fully Tom, But I was told in a tech line years ago. Follow the rules, or don't race. Pick one.

My car is legal in other sanctioning bodies without a splash sheild, I beleive you saw my car yesterday to know exactly how far behind the seat's the cell is. But, I got one figured out yesterday afternoon, and it's simple, and easily removable/installable. And won't be put in until Thursday the 11th.

Matt, don't take this the wrong way but who are you? I haven't read the whole thread and figured out why you are answering my tech question. Let me tell you that in the last 5000 trail/race miles, the summit cell has worked perfectly. Doubled up on the rollover valves plus added a flapper/45. Plus ball valves added in the system via last year rules. It also worked twice in the last 2 KOH and 2 VORRA races this past season as well. The car's been rolled at every speed imaginable. With that track record I am comfortable saying my car is more safe enough without you telling to add extra crap.
I would much rather have more additional fire apparrel ie. shoes,gloves,balaclava,underwear then focusing on the car as the issue. I spent my safety budget on a defender head and neck restraint. That is hard on a limited budget.






You would rather spend $1000.00 on fire suit upgrades then $20.00 on a piece of tin? You and I have already had this argument on the phone and you agreed to slap a piece in, after I told you what you needed two weeks ago. Why Tom?

I understand you don't agree with the rule, but its in the book. Its in the BITD Book, and the SCORE Book as well. I bet its in the VORRA Rules as well and no one ever checks it when you tech. Do it or don't but I am going to guess that the tech guys are going to look at it because people have raised such a fuss over it.

WHY IS IT IN THERE? the million dollar question. Besides the fact I tried to write a rule book that allows people to build a car to race in multiple sanction bodies, and DUH leave a few loopholes so you guys could argue out of it in tech line. Look at DREW GOLDIES Fire in 2008 It started from a fuel leak behind the seats.

We have had Three fires in four races. Sorry I am a complete asshole that just wants to see you spend valuable time working on a little safety rather then building your car to go faster.

Consider this;
Ever stop to think about the liability that Hammerking takes on regarding this race? Ever stop to think what would happen if someone died? Ever stop to think about how hard it is to get Liability Insurance or what it costs? Ever stop to think what would happen to all the $100,000 cars that where built to race in KOH if there was no KOH? Ever stop to think what would happen to the companies that built those parts had 150 teams not prepared for KOH. Ever stop to think what would happen to those Jobs?

Oh I know Everyone would be pissed off at the promoter, for not requiring enough safety items.



Funny how much that fire wall would cost.


I don't know how to justify the rule to a guy who jumps out of choppers with a pair of boards strapped to his feet, but I can ask that I guy I hope is a freind to cut us a break, and add the damn tin in.

You can not use the last 5000 miles as the basis for the safety of your car, its the next 135 I am concerned with.



__________________________________________________ ___________

Matt will be one of the guys teching cars on the lakebed. A position he does as a volunteer, a position that will require him to travel from the east coast to do. Why does he do it? I would not do it, but he is commited to making this sport a success. He is on here answering your tech questions because he knows that I am stretched beyond thin, and he is trying to make my life easier. He is investing in the future of national Ultra4 racing, so he can do his job better on the east coast, and we can have a unified National set of rules, so if you get the itch to race in PA. You will get the same tech inspection there as you would here. A novel idea I think.














__________________________________________________ _________

Look, there is nobody involved with KOH who really understands how or why this rule is written. In the response to me, Dave made it clear that although he may not understand or agree with the rule...it is there because the other sanctioning bodies require it. I feel very condfident in saying that if you make at least an attempt at putting a metal firewall in front of your tank that is at least the width and height of the tank...you will pass tech.

EDIT.....I wrote this before I saw Jeff's post. Although I don't think it changes my sentiments.

[QUOTE=Jeff Knoll; but I can ask that I guy I hope is a freind to cut us a break, and add the damn tin in.

fawk, that all you had to type.


Matt thanks for being a volunteer to further the sport. Sorry for the attitude.

Here is our implementation of the fuel filler splash guard. I believe we meet both the intent and the letter of the law, can you offer an opinion?

I like it; you've got my concerns covered nicely.

Matt, don't take this the wrong way but who are you? I haven't read the whole thread and figured out why you are answering my tech question. Let me tell you that in the last 5000 trail/race miles, the summit cell has worked perfectly. Doubled up on the rollover valves plus added a flapper/45. Plus ball valves added in the system via last year rules. It also worked twice in the last 2 KOH and 2 VORRA races this past season as well. The car's been rolled at every speed imaginable. With that track record I am comfortable saying my car is more safe enough without you telling to add extra crap.
I would much rather have more additional fire apparrel ie. shoes,gloves,balaclava,underwear then focusing on the car as the issue. I spent my safety budget on a defender head and neck restraint. That is hard on a limited budget.

Matt is my right hand man in the tech department; he is at least my equal, if not my better, in knowledge, and has yet to offer a clarification or explanation with which I'd disagree. He'll be on the lakebed doing tech with me (and whoever else we can sucker into taking the jobs) and since he already knows the rulebook every which way, he's an excellent info source on what's OK and what isn't.

From a fire safety standpoint, I'd like to see everybody in Nomex underwear, two-plus-layer one-piece firesuits, fire shoes, fire gloves, balaclavas, etc. From a heat and comfort standpoint, from a walking around in the rocks standpoint, from a cost standpoint, there are a lot of reasons not to do that. I think the present requirements have very carefully walked a fine line on keeping this race as practical and affordable as it can be for a lot of guys; if $20 worth of sheetmetal is the price to pay for wearing a firesuit that I can tolerate wearing for eight plus hours in 90+ degree heat, that's a pretty reasonable trade to me.

Look, there is nobody involved with KOH who really understands how or why this rule is written. In the response to me, Dave made it clear that although he may not understand or agree with the rule...it is there because the other sanctioning bodies require it. I feel very condfident in saying that if you make at least an attempt at putting a metal firewall in front of your tank that is at least the width and height of the tank...you will pass tech.

EDIT.....I wrote this before I saw Jeff's post. Although I don't think it changes my sentiments.

I understand.

Below your shoulders you have a fire suit on. Depending on what kind you wear you get between 3 and 7 seconds before the suit starts to fail.(there may be some that go longer and if you wear nomex underwear you get more time with that generic numbers but close)

Even if your suit gives you protection your sweat will likely steam and cause burns from the inside of your suit.

Lets say you have a small fire from a drip of gas on the muffler. You probly wont even know untill it gets pretty bad. Maybe that tin will buy you a couple extra seconds.

Above the shoulder you have a helmet on, that buys a little more time then the suit. Heat rises, and hopefully the flames rise above the seat, and the metal keeps the seat from catching on fire.

Or maybe its a trans cooler line that breaks, or maybe the refueling team gets carried away and splashes a flood of gas down onto the hot exhaust, and into the drivers compartment.

Maybe the rear cage fails when some guy drives full speed into the dust and rear ends a slower car, and the tank and Summit Poly tank fails and a flood of fuel rushes into the driver compartment. Lets assume the foam had been removed because he read on Pirate you should take it out.


How fast can any of you stop the car and get out in full gear? Can you do it every time? I have been stuck in a race car 3 times at pit stops and needed help getting out. I'll take every bit of extra protection I can get.


It amazing how much friction the fuel cell and fire wall rules are creating. I guess we should just be thankful its an unlimited form of racing because if we had classes I think I would just take golf lessons.

Scott - make sure you count all the bandaids in Val first aid kit.....

and have fun with tech....I woudn't wish that job on my worst enemy.....

You know I dont do short posts.

[QUOTE=Jeff Knoll; but I can ask that I guy I hope is a freind to cut us a break, and add the damn tin in.

fawk, that all you had to type.


Matt thanks for being a volunteer to further the sport. Sorry for the attitude.

Scott - make sure you count all the bandaids in Val first aid kit.....

Fortunately for me, Val's not racing, so I don't have to worry about that one. :eek: :barf:

I guess we should just be thankful its an unlimited form of racing because if we had classes I think I would just take golf lessons.

There we go. Only I can't play golf; I can swing a club, and hit a ball, but to call it "golf" would be a terrible insult to the sport. :laughing:

There we go. Only I can't play golf; I can swing a club, and hit a ball, but to call it "golf" would be a terrible insult to the sport. :laughing:

Maybe you need more mistresses?? :flipoff2:

FWIW, on fire safety, you don't HAVE to have Nomex underwear to reap enormous benefits from double-layer clothing (and I don't mean a dual-layer suit, I mean long sleeve and long-leg underwear). It's better if it's Nomex, for sure, but just having two layers ups your protection considerably. Having been involved with crew-clothing issues and scientific studies of this in my day job, and having seen first hand a guy that was burned while wearing a T-shirt under his flight suit instead of regulation long underwear (and seeing how much more severe the burns were below the T-shirt sleeves and how defined the line was) I urge all to wear two layers - even if it's only cotton long underwear - it makes a hell of a difference.

Jeff-
Please keep in mind that when I first questioned the rule and why it was there...that could not be answered. Scherer nor myself take safety lightly. We are both wearing 3 LAYER suits...nomex underwear, shoes and gloves (even while practicing) with a fire suppresion sytem in the car.
I asked the question more along the lines of truly trying to understand and comply with the rule. Dave's answer was good enough for me.

Matt is the Rausch Creek saftey/rules guy for the RC Race series. He is taking a serious interest in this because he will be involved in the RCQ inspections this year.
Close, I'll be helping Scott at tech for KOH in Feb., Hope you pass. :flipoff2:


Matt will be one of the guys teching cars on the lakebed. A position he does as a volunteer, a position that will require him to travel from the east coast to do. Why does he do it?

Because i lost a bet........ :laughing: J/K

For me,, it's one of those chances of a life time I couldn't pass up. I have a way out and a place to stay, something I'm very grateful for. If not for the help of other people I would never be able to do it on my own being out of work. I'll be the guy with the clip board walking around stealing burgers and hot dog's off the camp grills all week, steak if i can run fast enough. That and we don't have eleventy million acre's of public land around here to use for wheeling. Someone told me it existed, but i think it's all a fairy tale.

Now, can we get back to the regularly scheduled bitching about the rule's before it get's all warm and fuzzy in here ? :D

Hey Scott and Matt, as a token of my appreciation to both of you for volunteering your time I will go ahead and tech that bastard with the 1224 car. Hes a real tool and a pain in the ass. No need to thank me just give me a tech band when I see you on the lake bed I will handle it from there.:flipoff2:

Wayne

So that I don't waste my time... please tell me what I need to have a "splash shield" for refueling with my fuel cell setup like this. I'm not planning on having the cool guy remote fillup dealio at the top of my cage. Will a large funnel suffice as a "splash shield" during refueling? Keep in mind it's a 4 seater and the cell is 3-4' away from the occupants. Directly in front and above the fuel cell is a sheet of aluminum with my trans cooler mounted in it.

I do not understand all of the talk about a splash shield, this is a cheap and common sense item that is paramount to your safety. Last night in the shop one of my guys started talking about his plans for a splash shield around my cell and I laughed and said you have been reading PBB I guess. He had no clue what I was talking about as he had not seen this thread yet.

So that I don't waste my time... please tell me what I need to have a "splash shield" for refueling with my fuel cell setup like this. I'm not planning on having the cool guy remote fillup dealio at the top of my cage. Will a large funnel suffice as a "splash shield" during refueling? Keep in mind it's a 4 seater and the cell is 3-4' away from the occupants. Directly in front and above the fuel cell is a sheet of aluminum with my trans cooler mounted in it.

From 17.10: "All fuel fillers must be surrounded by a boot or splashguard (body panel is acceptable as a splashguard, if it is sealed). Boot or splashguard must direct fuel spillage to outside of vehicle and away from occupants' compartment, engine, and exhaust."

You can't actually direct fuel spillage to the "outside" of the vehicle without some elaborate plumbing system that drains from under the tank (where spilled fuel would end up) so I would say that for purposes of 17.10, you need something between the filler itself, and the seats, that if fuel splashes on it, it'll drip to the ground, not the floor. As such, if your fuel cell firewall extends above the top of the tank, it satisfies the "boot or splashguard"; if it doesn't, a "dam" attached to the flanges (front, sides) on your fuel cell to prevent fuel from running over the front of the tank, would suffice for the splashguard.

If the piece of aluminum that your trans cooler is mounted to, blocks splashing fuel from going over the top of the firewall to the seats, and directs any such splash to the ground (not the back seat/floor) then it works too; if it's only big enough to hold up a trans cooler, it's probably not enough, but you might be able to add rearward "wings" to it that would make it adequate. Can you post a pic of it with the aluminum in place?

From 17.10: "All fuel fillers must be surrounded by a boot or splashguard (body panel is acceptable as a splashguard, if it is sealed). Boot or splashguard must direct fuel spillage to outside of vehicle and away from occupants' compartment, engine, and exhaust."

You can't actually direct fuel spillage to the "outside" of the vehicle without some elaborate plumbing system that drains from under the tank (where spilled fuel would end up) so I would say that for purposes of 17.10, you need something between the filler itself, and the seats, that if fuel splashes on it, it'll drip to the ground, not the floor. As such, if your fuel cell firewall extends above the top of the tank, it satisfies the "boot or splashguard"; if it doesn't, a "dam" attached to the flanges (front, sides) on your fuel cell to prevent fuel from running over the front of the tank, would suffice for the splashguard.

If the piece of aluminum that your trans cooler is mounted to, blocks splashing fuel from going over the top of the firewall to the seats, and directs any such splash to the ground (not the back seat/floor) then it works too; if it's only big enough to hold up a trans cooler, it's probably not enough, but you might be able to add rearward "wings" to it that would make it adequate. Can you post a pic of it with the aluminum in place?

Here's another angle, Unfortunately I don't have the alum cut out yet to show you. But it will fill that entire square in front and above the fuel cell. The area is as wide as the cell and will only have a hole in it for the trans cooler. You can also see my "firewall" directly in front of the fuel cell that's been there for years. Under the fuel cell is expanded steel, so no fuel can be trapped anywhere. Exhaust exits out the side panels of the body in front of the rear tires, so no hot exhaust to leak fuel onto. From the sound of things, I think I am satisfying the rule. :)

After going through several tech sessions in the last year this is my take on things in general.

The rule book is there to guide and control certain things. However every car is different and the tech guys always seem to be able to take that into account. Your job is to make something that meets/exceeds or comes as close as humanly possible to meeting the rules.

If you were building an entirely new car these rules are almost always easy to meet, in retro-fitting a car these rules are almost always a bit of a compromise as to what fits, works and meets the rules.

When looking at certain things (like the fuel filler/firewall) step back and look and think if I was the tech guy would I accept this, it may not "meet" the full letter of the rules but it does meet the "intent" of the rules.

In the case of the fuel cell shown above without a remote fill, I would fire wall to the top of the seats and bend a small angle section that bolted to the front of the cell bolts that would make the fuel at least run to an edge of the cell then to the pit mat. While not meeting the letter of the rule I doubt anyone would give you a hassle.

BTW our Lowes sells a fire caulking that we found to save our butts when trying to seal up firewall areas that the panels didn't fit tight in.

The last thing that we do when finalizing the safety items on the car is to objectively look at it and decide if we feel safe with what we have done or are doing. If we do and it is real close to meeting the full rule it is good. If we don't like it we change directions until we do like it. This is done even if the item does meet the rules.

We towed Daves car off the course after they had the fire out and it wasn't a good feeling knowing that he could have lost everything in the middle of the Nevada desert.

Just my worthless .02

Here's what I did.

Talking with JT last night and every brand new Jimco class 1 car that Harrah as in his stable you are sitting on top of the cell. With the can seperating you from the bladder. There isn't any additional firewalls under you feet.

Not to beat a dead horse but all the HMS/Jefferies Class1 Cars are this way too, as was Damens old IRS Trophy Truck. They race those cars in SCORE and BITD, and some other sanctions as well. I really dont have an issue with adding the firewall into the jeep, as it wont be all that hard for me to do, I'm just curious what other sanctioning body DOES require this.

Not to beat a dead horse but all the HMS/Jefferies Class1 Cars are this way too, as was Damens old IRS Trophy Truck. They race those cars in SCORE and BITD, and some other sanctions as well. I really dont have an issue with adding the firewall into the jeep, as it wont be all that hard for me to do, I'm just curious what other sanctioning body DOES require this.

Well here in NJ where Bigelow,BroncoLou, Eric Miller, and a few others have raced in They had the rule of having the firewall between fuel system and occupents but was fixed due to the rigs that had a bladdered fuel cell. Even though the rule was changed everyone still had the wall between the cell and ocupents. NJ state police run all racing here and are anal about rules and saftey. NJ just sucks but I would totally understand why they mad the rules what they are

Not to beat a dead horse but all the HMS/Jefferies Class1 Cars are this way too, as was Damens old IRS Trophy Truck. They race those cars in SCORE and BITD, and some other sanctions as well. I really dont have an issue with adding the firewall into the jeep, as it wont be all that hard for me to do, I'm just curious what other sanctioning body DOES require this.

While making the high speed rule's for RCROCS last year i researched this because of it being such an issue. SCORE, BITD, NMRO, NHRA, NASCAR, IHRA, Lucas Oil/KART and probably 5 other motor sports venue's i looked at all had a firewall rule of some sort. Now, weather they enforce that rule is on them and their tech but i know for a fact they all require it.

One of them was just insane the amount of work you had to go through to install a remote fuel cell and firewall.

When I raced in the MDR series 5 years ago, I had to put in a "fire wall" seperating the driver compartment from the fuel cell. We had a 22 gallon bladder type cell also.

Here's another angle, Unfortunately I don't have the alum cut out yet to show you. But it will fill that entire square in front and above the fuel cell. The area is as wide as the cell and will only have a hole in it for the trans cooler. You can also see my "firewall" directly in front of the fuel cell that's been there for years. Under the fuel cell is expanded steel, so no fuel can be trapped anywhere. Exhaust exits out the side panels of the body in front of the rear tires, so no hot exhaust to leak fuel onto. From the sound of things, I think I am satisfying the rule. :)

The firewall and the splashguard are really doing two separate things--the splashguard is keeping fuel off the interior and any potentially absorbent stuff that fuel might splash onto, and the firewall is protecting the occupants from the danger of fire from the fuel cell end.

You didn't ask about this, but I don't think your fuel cell firewall covers enough to accomodate the "side to side" or "completely separates" expectation being made of it--it looks to be only as wide as the fuel cell itself, in a vehicle that's much wider than the cell. In your particular case, since it doesn't look like coming forward with the firewall would be practical, it looks like you could sheet rearwards next to the fuel cell on the sides, to where the "sides" of the vehicle meet the rear, thereby effectively enclosing the fuel cell away from the occupants. Or I'm looking at it all goofy, parts that are normally there, aren't, but that's part of the danger of "approving" stuff on the internet from pictures--they never tell the story as complete as an in-person look-over does.

Back to the question at hand, the single panel splash guard would cover pretty much the intent of the splash guard, as long as there's not a place between the fuel cell and the firewall where something could get caught. My concern here is, the splash guard is supposed to keep fuel off of stuff, not just people. If you have a gear pocket between the splash guard and the cell, and you put a tow strap, a tool bag, your lunch, whatever, in there, and subsequently spill fuel on it (the splash guard directing the spilled fuel onto it) you've created a serious safety hazard in the process of trying to prevent one.

If you can't get something in there (because the firewall is too close), or if it won't stay there (no bottom under that area, for example) then I would say the single panel splash guard would be doing what it's supposed to be doing--directing fuel off the vehicle so that spilled fuel is not being carried around waiting for an ignition source.

I gotta say, last summer I fought may way through the BITD rules, so for the most part I dont have to worry about too much for 2010.

Maybe to give some guys ideas, here is my splash shield


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=459596&stc=1&d=1249964193

And here is my Fire wall. My battery is aft and between the front seats, so I had to seperate from there back, per the rules. But I also added a small panel for battery access that is sealed with metalliic tap when closed up. Like alot of dudes, racing never was in the design plan when built, so my cell sits pretty high, so I had to extend the firewall up to 2" past my shoulders.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=459597&stc=1&d=1249964193

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=456791&stc=1&d=1248668468

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=458055&stc=1&d=1249246534


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=458056&stc=1&d=1249246534


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=458355&stc=1&d=1249357301

Fast forward to V2R, we had to rig up the fuel line through the fuel sender hole, and a few miles down the road, the fuel slosh was ignited by the loose pumper ground. The whole top of the cell was on fire and the aluminum that the pumpers mount to was all burned, as well as the passenger pumper.

I am going to see if I can find a pic of the damage to illustrate that having the firewall extend up so far worked to keep the fire off of Billy and I.

Rob

Ok, here are the pics I took when I got home in August.


Here is the story (just to show how quick shit goes bad)....

We were having fuel issues, diagnosed it down to the fuel line clogged from the pick-up to the ball valve (ball valves rock-BTW...seriously). We removed the fuel sender, then jammed a piece of extra fuel line in to the hole, then used metallic tape to seal it up. That was fine, except for when I turned the pumpers on (when I initially wired them up, I grounded them to the fuel sender so they both shared the chassis ground----as you can see in the above pic.) Now that the sender was removed, the pumper ground was left loose, and although the metallic tape did a pretty reasonable job of sealing the hole, fuel still sloshed out. When I hit the pumper switch, it was trying to complete the circuit (sparking), thus igniting the fuel. We got stopped in a HURRY after Billy yelled "FIRE!!" because his neck was getting warm, and he saw the orange glow on the roof panels.

The point is.....yeah, it was our fault it happened, but when you are racing (against time like we do:grinpimp:) you have to fix shit quickly and with very limited supplies. We drove for 20 miles like this before the fire, then another 20 to pit 4 where our crew picked us up.


Edit...it also burned my pimp ass Zebra skins!....I also just now noticed the soot on the back of the co-dawgs seat.

Now, have fun while I watch everyone struggle getting through the rule book like I did all last summer!!!:smokin:

Rob

Rob, thanks for sharing your story, it can go bad quickly! See you on the lakebed, PM me if you need any race assistance or spares.

Ok, here are the pics I took when I got home in August.


Here is the story (just to show how quick shit goes bad)....

We got stopped in a HURRY after Billy yelled "FIRE!!" because his neck was getting warm, and he saw the orange glow on the roof panels.




Edit...it also burned my pimp ass Zebra skins!....I also just now noticed the soot on the back of the co-dawgs seat.

Now, have fun while I watch everyone struggle getting through the rule book like I did all last summer!!!:smokin:

Rob

Rob, sorry to hear about the Zebra pimp daddy skins. Did the fire burn my sig off the roof?

Boggles my mind that racers want to resist safety measures, especially an aluminum firewall to seperate the fuel from their bodies, unbelieveable, guess fire can't happen to them.


See you in Parker buddy, I'm bringing my empty Coozie with me.

Gene

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=459596&stc=1&d=1249964193
Rob,, the only issue I see with that setup is it's not directing fuel outside of the vehicle and away from the passengers. If someone grab's a fuel can, tossed it up there and hit's that shield, it can spray a complete 360 degrees and into the passenger compartment.

On top of that it can run down the tube it's attached to and directly into the passenger area in front of the firewall.

Not to give Billavista credit for anything but his shield does both deflect and direct fuel away from all thing's important. If you consider the driver important ? :D

Not to beat a dead horse but all the HMS/Jefferies Class1 Cars are this way too, as was Damens old IRS Trophy Truck. They race those cars in SCORE and BITD, and some other sanctions as well. I really dont have an issue with adding the firewall into the jeep, as it wont be all that hard for me to do, I'm just curious what other sanctioning body DOES require this.

CR39 2006 - 2010 SCORE rule book, almost word for word what we have.
I know its in the BITD book as well, but I don't have that one handy currently.( I took our wording from BITD as a matter of fact.) I would guess its in the More and MDR books as well. and Likely in the SNORE book also.


A lot of stuff gets passed over in the tech line.


BTW, I got a call today about SNORE seems they are moving to strick guildlines concerning Rollcage design, and following SCOREs lead. Sounds like the scales are coming out at SNORE. I was hoping to race the Mint400 so I guess I better start looking at cars that will pass tech.

Was talking to a friend about numbers and I have no idea how this works do I just pick my own number and hope its not taken?

CR39 2006 - 2010 SCORE rule book, almost word for word what we have.
I know its in the BITD book as well, but I don't have that one handy currently.( I took our wording from BITD as a matter of fact.) I would guess its in the More and MDR books as well. and Likely in the SNORE book also.


A lot of stuff gets passed over in the tech line.


BTW, I got a call today about SNORE seems they are moving to strick guildlines concerning Rollcage design, and following SCOREs lead. Sounds like the scales are coming out at SNORE. I was hoping to race the Mint400 so I guess I better start looking at cars that will pass tech.



I'm your Huckleberry :D

CR39 2006 - 2010 SCORE rule book, almost word for word what we have.
I know its in the BITD book as well, but I don't have that one handy currently.( I took our wording from BITD as a matter of fact.) I would guess its in the More and MDR books as well. and Likely in the SNORE book also.


A lot of stuff gets passed over in the tech line.


BTW, I got a call today about SNORE seems they are moving to strick guildlines concerning Rollcage design, and following SCOREs lead. Sounds like the scales are coming out at SNORE. I was hoping to race the Mint400 so I guess I better start looking at cars that will pass tech.



I guess my real question then is are they considering the metal container that the bladder is in to be a firewall. I would think that over the last 5-10 years they would have caught one of those 18-25 rigs at some point if they weren't legal. Regardless, what they do doesn't have any bearing on this discussion since we're talkin about KOH.

Was talking to a friend about numbers and I have no idea how this works do I just pick my own number and hope its not taken?

I know there was a list on here somewhere with all the numbers ? Send Jeff a message as he would know what's available or not and how to go about that.

Was talking to a friend about numbers and I have no idea how this works do I just pick my own number and hope its not taken?

There is a number discussion in the Comp Roundtable section. If you can't see that forum, PM Lance that you are a racer and would like access.

Ha.... Instead of spending time reading this thread for the last week, I built a rear firewall!!! Just to note, it would be my second rear firewall. My first one put the batteries inside the driver compartment (I missed it in the rules). I took almost a full day to redesign it after talking to Jeff and Dave (before Scott was involved). The fuel is incased in steel and the dry cell batteries are incased in steel. Now, they have aluminum as well. I don't know if it is a great rule, but it is a rule. take some time to do it right - be safe, be responsible, know you racing within the rules.

I don't agree with all the rules but I remember what it was like frantically searching all over Hammertown for the wonderful fuel shut off valves last year. $$$ and time now or a heart attack later. It's your choice...

BTW, make sure your batteries are not in the driver's compartment.

BTW, I got a call today about SNORE seems they are moving to strick guildlines concerning Rollcage design, and following SCOREs lead. Sounds like the scales are coming out at SNORE. I was hoping to race the Mint400 so I guess I better start looking at cars that will pass tech.

fishd00d
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=76232&page=5
"Robert Gross the race director just called me and said:

ONE YEAR GRANDFATHER RULE. You can race this year but by 2011 BAP you will need to be up to spec.

Game on at BAP!!"

I think you have another year :p:grinpimp:
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