I figured I would post this here as it's Scout specific, but far from hardcore.

While at the Fall Rallye 2 years ago Chad had his junk up there and I saw his oil cooler and thought it was a great way to go. 2 years later I put one in on the passenger side of my Scout. It dropped my tranny temps 30° on a hot day. Was running 210, now 175-180 when outside temps are over 100°. I replied to somebody else thread in the general forum but figure it would be good to have a thread here. You could mount one of these for your Transmission, Power Steering, or Engine oil.

I would have needed to move my battery back a couple inches, or move it to the rear or other side. I only needed to move my ARB pump on the passenger side so that is were I put it. It's hard to see in the pic's but I cut the inner fender out and made a cover to protect the lines and cooler from the tire.

craig, whats the first cooler? meaning brand and buy location? I need a tube style over the stack plate for my steering.

craig, whats the first cooler? meaning brand and buy location? I need a tube style over the stack plate for my steering.

I will have to ask Chad to be sure, but I think he said perma cool?
From what I have read stack plate cooler offer more flow over tube and fin. I thought the same thing you needed a tube and fin for power steering cooler as it would offer better flow. I guess more research in to this question is needed.

Might be one of these two
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRM-13211/?image=large
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRM-13515/?image=large

Edit.. I looked at the original pic and you can read perma-cool :)

I need a tube style over the stack plate for my steering.

Why???

Parts arrived from Rock auto so I can upgrade my tranny lines from bent up 5/16 junk to some 3/8 tubing for better flow.

as to tube and fin vs stacked plate (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348962&highlight=power+steering+cooler).
The plate style coolers like jchio posted above have NOT worked for us on the full hydro or Becca's RockHer ram assist. We ended up going tube/fin in both applications. I've heard from Station and Howe that they (the plate style) have problems compared to a tube and fin style cooler or a straight-thru cooler. Dunno why, but we learned by doing.

So your taking advice from Dustin?:laughing:

So your taking advice from Dustin?:laughing:

:laughing:


Its my understanding (and I believe Binder's understanding as well, which is why he's questioning), is the that stacked-plate coolers "Work" better. Do a better job cooling per size than a tube-and-fin cooler. They are just more efficient.


I wonder if what Dustin, Station etc are finding is that maybe the added resistance of the stacked-plate vs the tube-and-fin is cause issues with steering systems. Too much resistance or pressure drop for them to work effectively. I don't know, just thinking outloud. I do know that I plan on a stacked-plate for my tranny, we'll see what I end up with for the steering.

So your taking advice from Dustin?:laughing:

2ND THAT! :eek:


I have used the flat plate cooler before on a t-350 trans, when I lived in Phoenix. It DID work at keeping temps lower than a larger, round tube cooler.

When I went to a 4l80, it wasn't large enough to control the heat there in the summer, so I went a GM cooler that is installed on vehicles that are used in the Middle east. It basically is like a small radiator and works better than anything I have ever used.

It works so good, I use it alone to cool my transmission. I can plumb my trans to my custom radiator, but never had the need to. I have the fan set on it to 165* and rarely have I ever seen it get close to 190*. When I see it getting that hot, it tells me that it is clogged with mud.

I too was under the impression that stacked plates wont flow suffficiently for hydro assist and hydro brake needs. I tried to get both Vanco and PSC to confirm, but all i ever get is, "Im not sure"

so, barring Dustin's advice, can anyone sound off with verifiable proof that a stacked plate does not reduce GPM as compared to a tube fin?

First off I think the term "a stacked plate" is not enough info to determine anything as there's lots of them in different sizes. I can't show any data one way or the other. My point was taking Dustins word for it is about as consistant as who sponsors him or who he's friends with.:homer:...My opinion .02c

I've done some more reading and for tube and fin coolers they (Howe/PSC) recommend a 5/8" tube for tube and fin coolers when used for power steering. Fluidine makes one.
Stack plate coolers do flow more, PSC does sell stack plate and in-line coolers.

Looking at the big guys, Cat, John Deere, etc they are going to stack plate coolers that look like radiators, similar to the B&M Hi Tek cooler. They call them Plate-fin coolers

http://www.asahyd.com/mobile_hydraulic_oil_coolers.htm

Because of there parallel design they offer better flow
https://www.maniaspec.com/zb41/data/top_gallery/DSCF0023.JPG

Tube and fin coolers can be bought cheaper, and you need a bit more room to mount one of the same BTU size..

edit..

here a good deal
http://www.carparts.com/autoparts/ItemBrowse/c-10618/s-10401/p-100000189424/mediaCode-CP/appId-100000189424/Pr-p_CATENTRY_ID:100000189424

I too was under the impression that stacked plates wont flow suffficiently for hydro assist and hydro brake needs. I tried to get both Vanco and PSC to confirm, but all i ever get is, "Im not sure"

so, barring Dustin's advice, can anyone sound off with verifiable proof that a stacked plate does not reduce GPM as compared to a tube fin?

Link me the items you're talking about. I need to see what you're saying.

the pic just above is a stacked plate, the one at the very top of the thread is tube/fin

I don't like either of those for a hydroboost, well let's say I'd strongly recommend they're not put on the hydrboost return line.

I like these slapped right in front of the radiator.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/der13253-derale-12-heat-sink-cooler-kit-p-638.html

I don't like either of those for a hydroboost, well let's say I'd strongly recommend they're not put on the hydrboost return line.

I like these slapped right in front of the radiator.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/der13253-derale-12-heat-sink-cooler-kit-p-638.html

Still a tube and fin cooler... just a single row axial fin heat exchanger instead of a multi-row radial fin. MUCH less head loss in the single row variety since it is basically just a straight piece of pipe instead of all the 180° bends in a multi-row setup.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/images/large/Coolers/DER-13253-sm_LRG.jpg

Yes, no bendies, I like no bendies.

I have the Vanco setup in my Scout and too.:smokin: I know Van likes to see smooth flowing fluids, but a couple sweeping 90° already exsit coming out of the Hydro Boost brake, plus one the power steering pump and the Hydro assisted steering ram has two more. Plus the bends up to the cooler. My setup was working just fine and I blew a seal on the box and had to run a couple qt's of tranny fluid in the unit to get it off the trail. I drained that out and replaced it with Royal Purple, but it seem to whine a bit now. I'm thinking of draining it again ( been over a year) and trying Amsoil.

Still a tube and fin cooler... just a single row axial fin heat exchanger instead of a multi-row radial fin. MUCH less head loss in the single row variety since it is basically just a straight piece of pipe instead of all the 180° bends in a multi-row setup.

do I understand that you are saying the PSC one has less heat loss than tube/fin?

do I understand that you are saying the PSC one has less heat loss than tube/fin?

No, I said head loss.... not heat loss.

ok, just trying to understand what you are saying. So you mean head pressure?

ok, just trying to understand what you are saying. So you mean head pressure?

No, I mean head loss. Head loss is the amount of head pressure that is lost in the system (or device in this case) due to elevational changes, friction, turbulence, pipe wall roughness, viscosity of the fluid, blah, blah, blabbity blah.....

gotcha, ive always thought of most of that stuff to be considered as friction loss, and head is only related to eleveation, which is why I wasnt quite following, but I get you now.

So I guess my questions, is the loss sufficient enuf on a the steering return side to cause an issue? And f so, is the cooling from the above derale unit, sufficient to cool at slow speeds where air flow is reduced over the heat exchanger? My stuff has been getting warmer and warmer, so I was looking to add a switched fan on it, thus the top most tube/fin style.

I would be curious if that above Derale unit is sufficient for full hydro steering (no hydraboost).

The price is sure right. And the over-all size compact. Part of me is thinking is should be larger (longer) though. Maybe (2) end to end.


Seems to me to be a larger dia inside. That could be good. More fluid, slows it down inside, more chance for heat to be transferred out.

gotcha, ive always thought of most of that stuff to be considered as friction loss, and head is only related to eleveation, which is why I wasnt quite following, but I get you now.

So I guess my questions, is the loss sufficient enuf on a the steering return side to cause an issue? And f so, is the cooling from the above derale unit, sufficient to cool at slow speeds where air flow is reduced over the heat exchanger? My stuff has been getting warmer and warmer, so I was looking to add a switched fan on it, thus the top most tube/fin style.
I think the best compromise would a stock type, two-row tube and fin type of cooler found on many ford cars. It's about 3' long and about 4" tall (+/-) and only has one 180° "bendy". Lot's of surface area without a lot of head loss.... but it comes at the expense of compact packaging.

I would be curious if that above Derale unit is sufficient for full hydro steering (no hydraboost).

The price is sure right. And the over-all size compact. Part of me is thinking is should be larger (longer) though. Maybe (2) end to end.


Seems to me to be a larger dia inside. That could be good. More fluid, slows it down inside, more chance for heat to be transferred out.

Yup, all those things and more go into evaluating a heat exchanger's effeciency.

Seems to me to be a larger dia inside. That could be good. More fluid, slows it down inside, more chance for heat to be transferred out.

works the other way,

You are trying to heat the tubes of the heat exchanger, the higher velocity through the same tube size, the better and more uniformly it heats the tube. Also, the higher the velocity a fluid moves through a pipe, the more efficiently heat transfer takes place. If it's fast enough, the flow becomes turbulent and transfers ALOT more heat, but takes considerably more power to push.

keep under the turbulent region, you know your flow
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Moody_diagram.jpg

that hurts my brain right now. i guess the only thing I have to add is, if you reduce the size, you increase friction loss, and increase heat. Not that I am arguing with you, but i am having a hard time understanding how increase flow rates (gpm) equate to higher heat dissipation. it seems to me, and I fully accept that im prolly wrong, that there has to be a compromise between flow rates and heat exchange for max efficiency.

so wth that said, what is the best solution, like mechanos said, a two pass tube/fin design? Anyone have any input n what kind of fan could be added to one of those?

that hurts my brain right now. i guess the only thing I have to add is, if you reduce the size, you increase friction loss, and increase heat. Not that I am arguing with you, but i am having a hard time understanding how increase flow rates (gpm) equate to higher heat dissipation. it seems to me, and I fully accept that im prolly wrong, that there has to be a compromise between flow rates and heat exchange for max efficiency.

so wth that said, what is the best solution, like mechanos said, a two pass tube/fin design? Anyone have any input n what kind of fan could be added to one of those?

If you keep with a Reynolds number that keeps you in laminar flow, the frictional effects will be negligible. The increase in heat dissipation far outweighs the additional heat generated from the wall friction. A fluid (like oil or air) flowing over something has a velocity profile that starts at zero at the wall and increases as you get farther away from it. The only way for the non moving part of the fluid to gather heat is through conduction which is very slow compared to the mass transfer of the fluid. The only way to speed up the transfer is to have the highest temperature difference at the wall as possible. This is accomplished by higher velocities of the nearby parts of the fluid which keeps "changing out" the cooler parts of the fluid for hot parts. Maybe a graphic will help.

http://knowledgepublications.com/doe/images/DOE_Thermodynamics_Laminar_and_Turbulent_Flow_Velo city_Profiles.gif

If you are really interested in learning more about heat transfer and fluid mechanics, I'd recommend checking out any edition of heat transfer by Munson. Excellent textbook and he has very illustrative examples and exercises that will change what your instinct would be about some things in heat transfer. Problems very similar to this discussion.

3.5GPM saginaw P-pump

810 in^3/min

13.5 in^3/sec

0.000221 m^3/sec Flow rate

For laminar flow, the friction factor is 64/Reynolds number
For laminar flow, Re<2300


What do you want for your acceptable pressure drop across the cooler? 5 psi hot? if so;

dP 35kpa

f=64/2300=.03

dP/(specific density)=f(l/d)(v^2/2g)
35kpa/(9.8*880kg/m^3)=(.03)(l/d)(v^2/2(9.81))
so that leaves you 3 unknowns, if you are guessing at different pipe diameters or lengths or cross sections, you can plug and solve that equation to keep you laminar with a 5psi pressure drop.

If you want to see what happens at velocities when you start getting turbulent, you will need to do some reading as it gets more complicated when you worry about bends and tube type.

If you want to get into the actual heat transfer rates possible by various tube and fin heat exchangers, it would be easier for you to do some reading than me to type more.

in this hobby everything is about overdoing so just slap a big tranny cooler on there and go to town. If anyone has any cross sectional area data of those plate types that aren't supposed to flow enough, I'd like to know it, even if its just a rough dimension. I can get a pretty good idea of the actual pressure drop.

in this hobby everything is about overdoing so just slap a big tranny cooler on there and go to town. If anyone has any cross sectional area data of those plate types that aren't supposed to flow enough, I'd like to know it, even if its just a rough dimension. I can get a pretty good idea of the actual pressure drop.

We only do that because it's what works. Now the hydro boost brake return line goes to the reservoir and not to the cooler. The pump's return line does go to the cooler and then to the reservoir. If you look at Skid Steers you can see what they do. The plate and fin coolers are just like radiators, but handle the higher pressure. Mine came with 1/2 NPT fittings, so I don't think flow is an issue there. Van's point is smooth flowing fluid thats why he said the heat sink type of cooler.
But his point was also about the HBB return line.


Edit adding pic of unit installed per instructions

Ok back to updating this thread as my Power steering cooler is leaking. I did a field fix about a year ago with putty and its leaking again. So I need to replace the cooler. I have a nice Plate and Fin cooler, just like the B&M Hi Tek, but the fan that is on it is huge! The cooler is off a Polaris. I pulled the fan and can add a slim fan or run it without, or sell the whole thing on E-bay and buy something else. It's about 10"x7"x1".

Edit here is the pic from Vans web site. Need to updated it to look like my system. Maybe make one thats closer to what Van was talking about too.

http://www.vancopbs.com/v/vspfiles/images/Vanco6.gif

I switched to a heat exchagner style some time after this thread, and I dont think I am losing enough heat. My pumps (Ive swapped two thinking it was the pump originally) have been whining really bad and getting pretty hot. I cant find any leaks anywhere that it would be sucking air, and i am sstill getting bubbles, so I am ASSuming that i am cavitating the pump, but it has not boiled over nor do I have a temp gauge on there to verify. Im thinking about going back to the tube/fin which was working better.

Good fluid is also key as PS fluid is not marked like motor oil or ATF. I've had good luck with Amsoil syn hydraulic oil, where the cheap stuff would whine.
The cheap stuff is around $4-5 qt vs $7-8 for some good stuff. But if your gettign bubbles you have to fix that first.

Post a pic of your setup sometime.

I just looked up the most expensive cooler summit sells and it's a Fluidyne stacked plate and fin cooler. $566 Not that you need this cooler, just wanted to know what Fluidyne best cool looks like.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/fld-db30816_w.jpg

IM running red line PS fluid. Ive always run valvoline synthetic, but they dont sell it anynmore.

heres the cooler Im running. Mounted low and in front of the radiator to get the coolest air possible. I also added a magnefine filter on the PS/cooler return line. They claim it will not reduce flow, but maybe that is my problem????
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/787052/fullsize/steeringcooler.jpg

Nice cooler, that thing is huge. :smokin:

Use an IR gun to check temp, should be around 160° after working it a while. I have an extra water temp gauge I'm going to plumb in this time to know for sure what its doing. I just pulled the winch, headlights, marker lights,front grill and the coolers off.
What a mess, it leak on the Con run and packed the radiator full of dirt and oil. Did not have time before the SFR to pull all that stuff to clean and fix it.

edit adding pic of radiator. This is after about 5-6 cleanings. I would soak the area with degreaser and than wash it off. Each time it gets a bit cleaner.
I out line where the coolers were.

Well the radiator still had a ton of crap stuck in the fins of the radiator from the oil that leaked and the dust that stuck to it and got bake on.

So I got some professional help. i.e. grab some of my HVAC coil cleaner. and that stuff cleaned all the remaining bake on oil and dirt.:evil:
After a good rinsing, I spray it with vinegar to make sure it was neutralized and then another good rinsing with water. So I'm ready to put it all back together.

I need to add some new cross support bars as I'm going to move the tranny cooler over and relocate the P.S. cooler more to the middle of the radiator.

IM running red line PS fluid. Ive always run valvoline synthetic, but they dont sell it anynmore.

heres the cooler Im running. Mounted low and in front of the radiator to get the coolest air possible. I also added a magnefine filter on the PS/cooler return line. They claim it will not reduce flow, but maybe that is my problem????
http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/787052/fullsize/steeringcooler.jpg

Ok I mounted the Polaris cooler, but the in and out point straight out. Unless I run the hose out the grill it won't work:homer: :shaking:

So what to buy? I really like yours, and it would fit nice below the radiator too. But how does the air get purged? I'm thinking its a hollow tube and unless you mount it vertical how would the trapped air get out? I've never looked in side one. assume it looks like so.

http://www.prchotrod.com/media-center-images/cooling_accessories/Trans_oil_cooler.jpg

I just let it hang down when I purged, and then mounted it just like when I do my ram

Pulled the trigger and got a one of these heading my way.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/der-13266_w.jpg

I'm going to just put the temp gauge sensor in the return reservoir tank. I can feed the wire up the vent in the cap and monitor the temps that way.
This is just a temp-orary setup (pun intended lol) otherwise I will need to weld a bung on the tank. I'm also going to look at mounting the cooler I have behind the headlight. No fan, just the cooler as there is no room on the engine side with the battery and all. Its going to be a tight fit, won't know until I try, or just sell it.

Well it arrived, got to love Summit in their fast shipping.

Ever wonder what it looks like inside on a dual pass? I put the lense in one hole and position the flash over the other hole.

Fits nice under my aftermarket radiator too. :smokin:
I hated the thought of drilling any metal, (lazy) so I just welded the bolts to the frame via a small piece of angle iron. The Derale 13266 was made for a Scout II as it just fits inside the frame rail. I covered the power steering hoses with some 3/4 heater hose to provide extra protection from where they pass through the body.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=554053&stc=1&d=1287363816

Thats awsome Craig! Gonna have to look into one of those when I go hydro:smokin:

mines single pass, and I really wish I got the dual pass.