So I'm looking at buying an established powdercoating and sandblasting business (been unemployed since March). The company makes decent money and really only requires work here and there. You are not busy open to close...so I'd probably be working on my own projects too.

There is nobody in town with a CNC plasma table and I think it would be a good addition to expand the business slightly. I'm not looking at building anything for the offroad community, sorry, but that market is over saturated. Probably make some stuff for my buddies though and maybe some lawn art to sell on the side???

So, for those that have done so, or have looked at doing so:

What are some ideas you have used to help justify the purchase of a CNC plasma? Have you gone out and passed out cards to businesses and tried to drum up business? What are some of the ideas you've used and markets you've explored? What is some of the work you've done?

Obviously I'd love to be able to put one of these in my shop. But I need to be able to justify it and at least recover the cost in 5 years or less, so at least $175/mo.

Recovering cost in 5 years = your wasting the money. Don't forget you need to make a wage on top of paying the machine off, covering electricity and consumbles etc.

Your plan should be to find a way to pay it off within a year or at a max 2 years.

But my honest opinion is don't do it. My families powdercoating shop is constantly busy, I would think you'd be way better off concentrating on the blasting and painting part of the business until its keeps you busy full time, then hire workers and then look at new avenues of revenue.

Powdercoated yard art :flipoff2:

Sell on ebay.

I suppose I should say that I live in a county with a population of 80k. I do have some ideas to grow the business, and it's the only game for an hours drive, but even at it's best, I don't think it will ever be constantly busy. There's enough business to make a good wage, and still have the flexibility to take a day off, and work on my own stuff. I love that.

I'd really like to be able to recover the cost in a year or two. 5 yrs would be worst case in my eyes.

Oh, ya, powder coated yard art......I knew that was coming :D

Write it off as a business expense under section 179 of your taxes in the 1st year of purchase... I'd say you will find some more uses for the table besides yard art pretty quickly. High end furniture or business signs and plaques etc just to name a few. I'd bet you could have it pay for itself in < 6 mo. I just built my table and its hobby quality yet I've had people already contact me about cutting some custom stuff (not 4x4 related) for machines they build. They wanted to keep the money local instead of sending it to people they've never met.

You can put an ad on craigslist, in the local cafes, even throw some product up on ebay. 2D steel cut from plasma has a huge future right now. There are some decent size businesses that started with a little plasma table. We had a customer come by the shop to gloat about making money with his. Here is his pic



It is all possible!

You can put an ad on craigslist, in the local cafes, even throw some product up on ebay. 2D steel cut from plasma has a huge future right now. There are some decent size businesses that started with a little plasma table. We had a customer come by the shop to gloat about making money with his. Here is his pic



It is all possible!

Did he figure out how to make cocaine with his plasma table? :D

Did he figure out how to make cocaine with his plasma table? :D


Ya, Really? I have only made a few hundred dollars on my table in a few years. I had big plans for it but there must be 20+ cnc plasmas and laser in my town, and there must be 20+ right here on Pirate. The art and 4wd stuff is way over saturated with this stuff. I have run adds on craigslist and only made a few pieces of art. I sell A few things on ebay, but I am the only one selling making the item.

If you decide to buy one I hope you already have a product to sell on it.

Did he figure out how to make cocaine with his plasma table? :D

LOL, I've hear of some weird things that cocaine is cut with, but never heard of it cut with plasma....:D

I don't have a product in mind at this time. Guess I was hoping for some inspiration here. I know I could get some business, just not sure how much. Looks like I need to do a little market research. Plenty of boat builders and logging in this area along with manufacturing and machining.

All you need to do is something nobody is doing and market it. Doesnt need to be a 4wd tab or bracket their isnt any money in those. We have customers making assemblies to simple 2d parts to artwork.

Making "artwork" depicts such a broad spectrum. All I have to do is talk to my Mom and Sisters about stuff they want or have seen that they think is cool. Then you take it to the next level and one up the market. Sure I have plenty of my own ideas, and they are a great audience to run those ideas by.

Women have the most experience on spending money on useless decorative stuff :cough: shit :cough:...:laughing:

Here is his pic



It is all possible!

If someone flashed that sort of cash in my face they better be a damn good buddy of mine or people may never see them again... :flipoff2:

A couple comments:

1. You talk about taking a day off here and there. If customers can't rely on you to be in your shop during regular hours, they'll most likely stop coming by. If you're not staffing the shop with paid workers and you take off unscheduled days plan on a dwindling customer base.

2. You should have a pretty solid payback plan (I like the one year payback suggested above) in place before you buy the machine. Have customers lined up or a market well researched before you make the purchase.

3. Buying or starting a business with no business ownership/management experience is a recipe for disaster. Why do you think so many small businesses fail? Get yourself a mentor. Maybe the current owner would help you - unless of course he/she hasn't done a great job running the business.

4. Only you know what your market is. Asking a bunch of strangers on a national forum what product you should sell in your community is another sign that you probably shouldn't make the purchase.

Sorry to be so blunt. Hopefully, it will help you avoid failure. I don't want to see your business in the Fail thread in six months. :flipoff2:

Thats the one thing about money. It comes and goes and you cant take it with you. Could you trust the next generation to spend it as wisely as you could if you wrote them into a will. My answer is hell no! I remember family and friends getting small inheretences from people and what did they buy...crap...just more of the same crap.

The thing about plasma is that it gives you the ability to move from idea to reality and depending on the plasma cutter ...very fast to reality. It doesnt give you the idea to make the part per say but it can open up a world of options. Everyone...I mean everyone I know that has a CNC plasma from any mfg has said they couldnt live without it and would not get rid of it. If you can think of a 2d or 3d assembly or part made out of flat steel (single piece or more) than you should have a cnc plasma. We use CNC plasma cutting for fixtures for our CNC mills and for personal projects nothing more for now. Our plasma helps with prototypes and we could easily offer a $1 axle bracket any size but it isnt the market we want here.

From a business standpoint there are businesses here that thrived on just asking what people want with little to no training or mentors. We built our business by taking profit from over the years and stuffing it right back into business. I have found with the markets the way they are the best investment is in yourself or the business your a large part of. There are many ways to look at starting a business and if you could have the best playbook in the world it still doesnt mean you wouldnt have a successfull business that lasted a long time. Its the passion that gets you going and the ingenuity that keeps you there.

Considering the number of shops closing everywhere one would think you could buy a nice used table, or even a small laser, for practically nothing. If you really think you might have a market buy a real machine and concentrate on doing one off parts as any sort of production work pits you against people like me who count 1/10ths of pennies.

A couple comments:

1. You talk about taking a day off here and there. If customers can't rely on you to be in your shop during regular hours, they'll most likely stop coming by. If you're not staffing the shop with paid workers and you take off unscheduled days plan on a dwindling customer base.

2. You should have a pretty solid payback plan (I like the one year payback suggested above) in place before you buy the machine. Have customers lined up or a market well researched before you make the purchase.

3. Buying or starting a business with no business ownership/management experience is a recipe for disaster. Why do you think so many small businesses fail? Get yourself a mentor. Maybe the current owner would help you - unless of course he/she hasn't done a great job running the business.

4. Only you know what your market is. Asking a bunch of strangers on a national forum what product you should sell in your community is another sign that you probably shouldn't make the purchase.

Sorry to be so blunt. Hopefully, it will help you avoid failure. I don't want to see your business in the Fail thread in six months. :flipoff2:

You make some good points:

1. The way the current owner runs the business, his customers know how to contact him, and he meets them at the business. It's usually closed with nobody inside. He has 3 other businesses that he doesn't run personally, this is like his "side project". I can only improve on it.

2. That's something I will surely workout before the investment is made.

3. The current owner is willing to stay on board for quite sometime to train. I have lots of business owner friends to get advise from. I also plan on taking an entrepenurial/small business course at the community college, and I think I have a good business sense.

4. True, nobody knows what my market is. I'm just basically thinking out loud here. Looking for some ideas and if I can put something together to make the purchase justifiable. I'm sure there are ideas on here I haven't thought of.

Blunt is not a problem. All criticism more than welcome.

Making "artwork" depicts such a broad spectrum. All I have to do is talk to my Mom and Sisters about stuff they want or have seen that they think is cool. Then you take it to the next level and one up the market. Sure I have plenty of my own ideas, and they are a great audience to run those ideas by.


The thing about plasma is that it gives you the ability to move from idea to reality and depending on the plasma cutter ...very fast to reality. It doesnt give you the idea to make the part per say but it can open up a world of options. Everyone...I mean everyone I know that has a CNC plasma from any mfg has said they couldnt live without it and would not get rid of it. If you can think of a 2d or 3d assembly or part made out of flat steel (single piece or more) than you should have a cnc plasma. We use CNC plasma cutting for fixtures for our CNC mills and for personal projects nothing more for now. Our plasma helps with prototypes and we could easily offer a $1 axle bracket any size but it isnt the market we want here.


Considering the number of shops closing everywhere one would think you could buy a nice used table, or even a small laser, for practically nothing. If you really think you might have a market buy a real machine and concentrate on doing one off parts as any sort of production work pits you against people like me who count 1/10ths of pennies.

All good suggestions.

I would say the biggest thing you need to figure out is your market and product line. If you are thinking you will be earning your living off of this business, you will need to be profitable right off the bat unless you have some cash to keep you floating.

I too have thought about going into this exact business (powder coating/plasma cutting), but I just don't feel there is a big enough market to support the saturation I have in my area (Phoenix). It seems to me that there have been a lot of these businesses/equipment up for sale lately, which leads me to believe there just isn't a demand or reasonable margin that can be obtained.

I feel a plasma table can easily pay for itself with time, but I don't see them as cash cows producing fistfulls of Benji's. If the powdercoating business is truly profitable, the plasma table would be a great compliment to the operation. As previous posters have mentioned, they are great for one off custom jobs. In a smaller rural community, there is a demand for such items, but don't expect people to be knocking down your door. Be honest with yourself, if you weren't into the 4x4 scene, would you know to seek out a plasma table to get custom objects made for yourself? My uncle could easily justify a plasma table to keep his equipment and construction company going, but I doubt he has ever heard of a cnc plasma table (he does own a plasma cutter though). The point I'm trying to make in a round a bout fashion is it's all about marketing and knowing your market.

The route I have thought of taking is purchasing the aforementioned equipment under a business, doing enough work to prove it as a "business" and not as a "hobby" to the IRS, and writing it all off. The shop would hold my toys and tools and produce a loss to cover my legitimate income. Im sure there are many on this board doing this very thing.

Do yourself a favor, take a few accounting and finance classes along with your basic business classes. A strong set of books will tell you where you are going right and wrong.

If you have farming or logging in the area, replacement parts or patches for those guys would be one of the first things to look into. I know on our farm we always were making stuff to fix something. Usually with a torch though so it wasn't the greatest. If you have a truck body company near you, you can always look at making fish mouth plates for them. They may do stretch jobs and such that could use them.

Good points guys. Yes it's a rural area and I'd easily say that 99% of people have not heard of a CNC plasma. A little word might spread from word of mouth, but for the most part, I'm going to have to find the business myself. There is enough farming/logging/boat work around here, I know I can drum up some business. There will need to be some introducing people to the technology, educating them on the capabilities of the machine, and the showing them what they can save in labor costs on certain jobs.

I'd love for this to pay for itself in a year or two, but if it can't happen, I don't think it would be a big deal. I mean, lets be honest, some of the reason I want it is because I want to build myself a buggy. How many of us own a shop full of tools and have never made a dime from them?

If I do get the business, it probably won't be until after the first of the year. At that point I should already know the ins and outs of the business and whether or not I can grow it with the addition of a plasma table.

you only live once and you can't take the $ with you. If buying the table is gonna put you over the edge debt or cash flow wise then don't do it until that factor disappears.. If not or you just have some extra coin then buy a table and enjoy it and get some creative idea and boom "your living the dream".

Where in Western WA? We use outside fabrication a lot. I wanted to buy a table a couple of years ago, but I lost my shop. Locally the guys that supply us work together: cutter, welder, powder coater. We spend a couple 100K a year on it maybe more. But our main business is not in steel, so we do not bring it in house.

I weld, but the stuff we do has to be great - and the stuff we get is great.

you only live once and you can't take the $ with you. If buying the table is gonna put you over the edge debt or cash flow wise then don't do it until that factor disappears.. If not or you just have some extra coin then buy a table and enjoy it and get some creative idea and boom "your living the dream".

Ya, the purchase of the table would be based on the current cash flow of the business. I surely would not let something like this jeopardize the business.

Haha, livin the dream....

Where in Western WA? We use outside fabrication a lot. I wanted to buy a table a couple of years ago, but I lost my shop. Locally the guys that supply us work together: cutter, welder, powder coater. We spend a couple 100K a year on it maybe more. But our main business is not in steel, so we do not bring it in house.

I weld, but the stuff we do has to be great - and the stuff we get is great.

I'm on the coast unfortunately. Pretty far from Bellingham, Mapquest says 200miles. I need to find an account like you guys though.

The current business plus a couple 100k account probably equals no more days off.

With my business we have been very successful with maintaining many small accounts rather then a few big accounts. Generally the smaller guys are better to deal with, and much less demanding. You become a slave to large accounts.

So I'm looking at buying an established powdercoating and sandblasting business (been unemployed since March). The company makes decent money and really only requires work here and there. You are not busy open to close...so I'd probably be working on my own projects too.

There is nobody in town with a CNC plasma table and I think it would be a good addition to expand the business slightly. I'm not looking at building anything for the offroad community, sorry, but that market is over saturated. Probably make some stuff for my buddies though and maybe some lawn art to sell on the side???

So, for those that have done so, or have looked at doing so:

What are some ideas you have used to help justify the purchase of a CNC plasma? Have you gone out and passed out cards to businesses and tried to drum up business? What are some of the ideas you've used and markets you've explored? What is some of the work you've done?

Obviously I'd love to be able to put one of these in my shop. But I need to be able to justify it and at least recover the cost in 5 years or less, so at least $175/mo.

I just saw this thread. After running this company and having sold these machines for 12 years or so and my father running it for 20 years before that, I just can't even begin to tell you how many times this question has been posed to us. :) I love it because people do so many different things with our tables. We have sold thousands and thousands of them. I have heard stories of people doing things that I would have never thought that they could make a living doing. Don't get me wrong, I have heard plenty that simply should not be in business for themselves as well. I guess my point is that the machine doing its job does not necessarily guaranty monetary success. It is just another tool at your disposal. It is what you make of it!

I have spent many years wondering what I would do if people stopped buying our Torchmate machines and I had to use my own to make a living. How would I make money with my own machine if I had to? First off, I would call around to all of the machine shops in my area to see who has cnc cutting machines and who doesn't. I would then try to work with all of the fab shops that outsource their cutting. Do a couple of jobs for them at no charge (except material). Show them what I could do and how fast I can do it. Anyone with a laser or waterjet usually keeps it booked out all the time, so as long as the tolerances fit I can beat them on many jobs.

Next I would go to all of the really big manufacturers in my area. Almost every large manufacturer has its own internal machine shop. Parts for assembly line equipment are outrageously expensive. We get a lot of those machine shops buying our tables because they are sick of getting taken to the cleaners by the assembly line manufacturer, who is usually out of business within a few years anyway. :shaking: Tell them that you would be happy to cut parts that they need. In some cases you can get a piece of their regular production.

I would then go to the local schools in your area and see if they have machines. If they don't, then tell them that you make custom signs and would like to do some for free for the schools. Ask if you could put your logo and website or contact number on the bottom corner of the sign. Word travels fast once you have a machine and start cutting things for people.

The name of the game is quantity. You want to work with people that need hundreds of the same parts cut over and over. It takes some research, but you can often find companies that have cutting needs although not enough to justify buying their own machine. There is also a big demand in prototype work. People need just one or two of something, but their local machine shop will take 6 weeks to fit it into their schedule. For those you may want to advertise in the local paper.

These are pretty off the cuff thoughts. I just thought that I might be able to add something to the discussion. Here are some of the stranger things that our customers do:

Earthquake Retrofitting of bridges
Smoker Manufacturer
Sex Toy Manufacturer (not kidding)
Demolition Companies
Amphibious RV Manufacturer
Jet Propulsion Lab
Cruise Ship Builder

Anyway, those are just a few off the top of my head. Hope this helps!

Bill

Thanks Bill. Great insight into the marketability of such a machine.

Steve

I've seen several local guys posting on Craigslist offering CNC Plasma services.(I almost left out the key words "CNC Plasma" and I know where you guys would have taken it.)

Ya, I've been keeping an eye on my area, haven't seen anyone post anything yet, but probably in time. My 'area' I search in is the entire Seattle area, but I'm 2 hours SW of Seattle. I did find 4 different guys offering CNC plasma in the Portland area though.

Market, margin & volumes. Its really that simple...:D

Who has money and how many people are there like them?
What do they like to blow money on?

The specifics are up to you to figure out...;) Step outside the box...

its true word travels fast when you have a plasma table, I just orderd a tm2 table and already have work lined up for it.

I picked up a TM2 4'x4' machine a couple months back during the Torchmate Sale here on Pirate. Up to that point, I had never messed with any type of CNC stuff nor CAD for that matter. I bought the machine to allow me to produce my own small parts for my bumper building, cage brackets, suspension brackets.. etc. Mainly mundane repetitive cutting.

Of course, I've cut a few small fun pieces and wound up cutting a small name plate for my desk at my "dayjob" (Defense Contractor for the Army). That has expanded to things like this...

For me, I just mess around with this stuff in my office area. However, in just a few short weeks, it's already snowballed into something bigger. Granted, I work on a military installation, but you could easily do fun stuff like this for Police Depts, Fire Stations, Municipal Offices.. pretty much any "work place" where there are desks. Not quite "full-time" work, but it generates a few hundred $$ per week pretty easy.

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2175/1522/5435760961_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2175/1522/5435760963_large.jpg

Hmm Ivan777 plasma777? Spam much?

Nice paperweight Besrk Ranger :usa:

Thanks for the info.