Getting ready to do a new cage and I'm hoping to get some tips on welding birds mouth joints. They are a bitch for me! I can weld straight shit all day long and have it look nice but with the birds mouths, I don't know. I have ground/tried to beat several off to make sure that I'm getting a strong weld with good penatration and I am. But I'd like them to look nice as well.

I was using flux cored .035 wire and am thinking about trying .030. I tack it together in the rig and pull it to weld. I do all of the welds up-hill and with a lot of heat. I'd post pics, but I sold the old cage so no go there. Oh yeah, it's made of DOM tubing.

And for all of the people that are about to post that if I have to ask this question, I should have it welded by a professional, don't skimp on the cage, yada yada yada :flipoff2:. I do the work because I can't afford to pay somebody $70/hr to do it for me. So don't bother.

Thanks!

-Jack

flux cored wire leaves alot of weld spatter..........

I take it you're using a 110 volt machine-??

all I could say is keep practicing on scrap.

you may want to look into a gas-bottle kit for your machine

if it doesn't have one. and just keep playing with different

heat settings, different angles, etc.........

--Sherpa


there is no "one-fit's-all" answer to your question.

throw that flux cored shit in the trash and go spend a few bucks on a tank and regulator. Its well worth the money and will improve your welds a ton.

Dallas

Having a name like Sherpa, you don't have a magical answer?

Anyway, yeah, it's a 110 volt machine with no gas availability. Maybe I'l make the trek up north and borrow my dad's hobart which has gas. It's still 110 but I think it gets hotter as well.

-Jack

I dunno flux core, I've always used gas.

Based on my gas-shielded experience...

Uphill will never work. You'll undercut it and it won't smooth out at all. It'll look like somebody spooged toothpaste between the tubes.

With a gas shield and 0.120 wall tube, I use 0.035 wire anyway, so I doubt that you'd need to go smaller on the wire.

Oh, yeah... I forgot to mention the first time... I weld in circles so much, I have trouble welding straight any more. :)

Thanks guys for the info... I guess it's time for a new welder! Suggestions? Yeah yeah, I know. Search. I'm thinking Hobart or Lincoln.

-Jack

Isn't it called fish-mouthed? You must have some pointy tubing.

So what you're trying to say is you have nothing to add to the post.

All the other guys know what I meant but way to add to your post count.

-Jack

on a more helpful note. .035 is petty big for a 110 welder. I use .025 flux core in a 110 portable for small stuff. With .120 wall being used in a cage I would use a bigger welder.

That's better, thanks. I don't know about .25 but I'll try .30 and see if that helps.

Anybody know where I can get a used welder in Sac?

-Jack

I've used a Hobart Handler 135 w/ gas with good results from a 110 machine. Good luck finding a used one though. I'm thinking that my buddy paid around $450.

$450 new? That's not bad. Got pics of the weld?

-Jack

If you are looking for a used welder in Sac, I would hit www.sacbee.com I have seen several in there that would suit your needs. You can also pick some cheap ones up off of Ebay. I am partial to my Lincoln 135, but my neighbors Miller is pretty sweet. I have not worked with Hobart, but they do have a good rep.

I go thru Harris Industrial Gases off of Auburn Blvd for my shielding gas. They are pretty reasonable.

I like my Lincoln 135 a lot. It has good power and if you know what you are doing you can weld thick material with no headaches (thicker than what's intended).

Originally posted by IronBenderII
$450 new? That's not bad. Got pics of the weld?

-Jack

You can get almost any brand in a 135 for around that price. Miller, lincoln, hobart....Lowes and Home Depot both carry them.

rusty, I just checked and I only see stick welders. Little help?

-Jack

Just on a side note, not sure if its helpful or not, but when i started welding up my cage i ran out of .030 wire, and all Home Depot had was .025 (welding place was closed) and i actually found that i could control the weld better and make a cleaner weld. I still like .030 for thicker stuff but for up to .120 wall i'm kinda likin the smaller wire.

Dallas

EDIT: i paid about 450 for my hobart 135 at harbor freight and i love it. welds everything up to 1/4" no problem, haven't tried anything thicker yet.

Dallas

Hey Iron,

When I got my Bluepoint 135 MIG (a Lincoln in disguise), it came with .023 wire. When that ran out, I went to .035. When I did that I was having troubles getting good penitration. It just seemed like I couldn't the welder hot enough to burn the wire. When that ran out I went to .030, and this wire is the happy medium for my welder. I can go from welding 18 gauge shet metal, to 1/4" plate with just the turn of the dial, and get good results each time. Just my .02 HTH :D

Maybe before I get crazy and spend $500 on a new welder I'll try running some .030. That $500 would go a long way in an auto darkening helmet! Thanks!

-Jack

I mail ordered My Miller 210.

These guys have free shipping and no sales tax.

The Hobart and Lincoln 135s are doable for 450.00 brand new
http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2/merchant.mv

Originally posted by IronBenderII
$450 new? That's not bad. Got pics of the weld?

-Jack

If it's not that bad then I would say step up to a Miller 175

FYI Miller and horbart are the same now, but Miller makes the hobarts under the hobart name and they have not so good componets compared to the Millers.

Originally posted by Tim in Ks
I went to .035. When I did that I was having troubles getting good penitration. It just seemed like I couldn't the welder hot enough to burn the wire.

That'd be about right with a smaller welder. FWIW I still prefer .030 even with my MM200

As far as miller/hobart is concerned AFAIK the hobarts have plastic drive mechanisms that can be replaced with the metal hobart ones if/when they die

I have a Lincoln 200 mig (200A max, 220V, needs about a 50A breaker at max amps, about $1200). If you can go the 220V route its a nice machine. If I had it to do over again I might wait for a deal on a miller 175 amp mig (about the same specs as the lincoln) where they throw in the $400 spool gun for free since I'd like to play with aluminum welding a little. I think you would be happy with either a miller or lincoln. Both have good reputations. Hobart is just a Miller in a different wrapper so it should be ok also. Check with your local welding suppliers for 'service after the sale' in case it needs service that may influence you on where you buy. Sometimes the local place will meet the 'internet price' . Then pay the state tax on top of that and chaulk it up to buying 'good will' from the local guy.

one thing I have found when using fluxcore wire is that it has a very fluid weld puddle. I use .045 fluxcore with a Miller 250X and find that any flat weld is excellent. Any attempt to weld out of position results in drips of weld material that look like scat. Try using a solid wire with gas, your dads welder, and I think you will find the fast freeze weld puddle more compatable with out of position welding. Good luck.

:beer: :beer:

When using a 110 volt wire feed you need to make sure you are using a 20 amp minimum outlet. Any lower and you will never be able to use the welders full range.

Originally posted by Just-fabricate-it
If I had it to do over again I might wait for a deal on a miller 175 amp mig (about the same specs as the lincoln) where they throw in the $400 spool gun for free since I'd like to play with aluminum welding a little.

I got the Miller 210 w/ the spool gun. I'm really happy with it. I believe it's the same as the old Miller 185's. I just recently got the spool gun all hooked up - best thing about it is you can have 2 different gas cylinders hooked up simultaneously, & both guns. When switching from steel to alumn, all you do is move the ground, adjust the heat, pick up the other gun & weld away.
My old 110 hobart worked great, I just outgrew it.
The whole thing was around $1200, & included an auto helmet & new gas cyl.
Matt B

i think the best money spent so far in the shop at home was on the hobart 210 ironman. it's a good welder for the price. we're not a professional shop so it doesn't get used all day long so the plastic parts hold up fine. once you have a good welder in the shop you'll find it'll come in handy all the time. and even though they are kinda expensive....auto darkening helmets are totally tits!!! it's a totally different experience welding with one! what i was trying to say was even thoughmoney is kinda tight...you'll never regret buying a nice welder for your shop! just don't tell your friends or they'll always want you to weld stuff for them!!!

So do you guys think that a 135 will weld thin gauge aluminum like 14 guage aluminum (read gas tank)?

-Jack

Sure it will weld it, but you may have jamming problems with the stock mig gun. Aluminum wire needs a spool gun. A spool gun is about 350.00 add on.

Originally posted by Just-fabricate-it
I have a (200A max, 220V, needs about a 50A breaker at max amps, about $1200). .

Hey DAN your only pulling 36 amps! A 40 amp breaker is just fine!

See page 5
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/literature/e750.pdf

As Mike E said make sure your on a good outlet with a 20 AMP circuit. Also if you are using an extension cord make sure it is a heavy duty with 10 Ga wire made a huge difference in my 110 Migs performance.

On my Miller Sidekick I used .030 wire, 75/25 mix Setting 4, and feed at 6.

Joe

Originally posted by hungryjpr


I got the Miller 210 w/ the spool gun. I'm really happy with it. I believe it's the same as the old Miller 185's.

Yup I like my Miller 210 as well. We must have both gotten Millers 2001 end of year “free stuff” sale, to get the spool gun at no extra charge. The 185 is a bit of a step down from the newer 210. Beside the internal set up with two gas solenoids and you can have both the spool gun and MIG wand hooked up you get things that the Miller 250 has. The biggest benefit is the geared drive roll set for spooling out the wire. (The 210 Amp rating is nice too!) And the little things like, tool storage tray under the wire hood and duel holders for both MIG wand and spool gun. I did not get as good of a deal as you did for a new unit with a 150 bottle, $1300. The auto dark, helmet was an extra $150.00 .

My first welder was a 110V Lincoln, I recall the books indicating the smaller the wire diameter the deeper the penetration. Also flux core gets better penetration over gas shielded with the same amperage. So if you are asking a low powered machine to stick thick stuff together you might spare yourself the cost of an 110V Gas set up. After I converted mine I sold it of one month later ($500 used w/cart and bottle) since it was great for sheet metal, but nothing structural. (Life safety stuff!)

Originally posted by IronBenderII
rusty, I just checked and I only see stick welders. Little help?

-Jack


Sorry for not responding sooner, but I was shoving a QuiZno's santa fe smoked turkey sandwhich down my pie hole! I checked Lowe's website and it is having issues. I called my local store and they still sell the lincoln 135 pro for $430. It comes with the gas hose and gauges so all you need is a tank. BTW- I called the lowes in Roseville.

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Maybe before I get crazy and spend $500 on a new welder I'll try running some .030. That $500 would go a long way in an auto darkening helmet! Thanks!

-Jack

hell for 555 you can pick up a new hobart handler 175 220v mig from cyberweld.com

Chris G.

Go to Barnes welding on Power Inn.....here in sac....For 35 bucks you can rent the Hobart machine to see if you like the difference!


I personally bought a Lincoln Powermig 200 and Love it!!!!

Zuk, that's a good idea, I might do that.

Rusty, you were saying that you had welders for sale in the sac bee but I didn't see anything but arc welders.

CJ - 555=more than I want to spend. But thanks.

-Jack

awe come on eveyone is doing it....;)

Chris G.

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Rusty, you were saying that you had welders for sale in the sac bee but I didn't see anything but arc welders.

-Jack

:smokin: Dude...I said that I have seen them in there on a regular basis. You have to keep on it. Usually there will be a few come thru there every month. There are also a ton on Ebay.

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Zuk, that's a good idea, I might do that.

Rusty, you were saying that you had welders for sale in the sac bee but I didn't see anything but arc welders.

CJ - 555=more than I want to spend. But thanks.

-Jack

Also Cyberweld.com has the hobart for a good deal!
A friend of mine just ordered it.....very nice unit!

Hey zook boy i just went down there on saterday,they want(i think) 65 for the day and something like 95 for the week!Needless to say i called up marlin to see if i could barrow his 175 for a few days,picken it up tomarrow.:D

Hey Taco, you're in Elk Grove right? Why don't you bring it on over to the house...

:D

-Jack

Just checked E-bay,Not to much there right now.Last time i looked there was a shit load of wire feeds there.I guess just keep checken back:confused:

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Hey Taco, you're in Elk Grove right? Why don't you bring it on over to the house...

:D

-Jack

I thought that might come up:D Unfortinetly the guy im going to barrow it from is on here from time to time and he probably wouldent care for that to much.

On another note,what is it that you are welding? I dont know what a birds-mouth is?

Got pics?

I do have a pretty good stick welder.

I have a Miller 250 and love having stepped up from the 110v world. That just hacked me off as much as got stuff done.

Here is a sample weld out of position on my lower control arm brackets.

http://www.rocktaxi.com/RearSuspension/DriverAxleBracket01.jpg

Any 220 Miller, Hobart and Lincoln will work. Miller 175 would be great machine for fab work.

Ed

Any body ever try using a 75% argon 25% mixture on the mig and turning your wire speed way up? Its almost like spray arc real clean. I tried it today and was amazed.

Taco, that looks damned good! Looks like it got nice and hot.

The term I was thinking of was fish mouths as in the joint where tubes meet. I'm building a new cage for the Bronco.

As for the argon mix and wire speed, looks good, but how did it hold?

-Jack

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Taco, that looks damned good! Looks like it got nice and hot.

The term I was thinking of was fish mouths as in the joint where tubes meet. I'm building a new cage for the Bronco.

As for the argon mix and wire speed, looks good, but how did it hold?

-Jack

Thanks......................But that was rock taxi's nice weld!
:flipoff2:

My buddie got the miller 175 with a cart ant i think he also got some kind of shield(not to shure if it was auto darkining or not)for just under 600.00 shiped to door!Im thinken thats the way yo go!

I've spent about 60.00 in rod in the last month alone,and for the life of me i cant weld with that thing upside down:(

I just cant wait for my own........then its own!:)

Where about are ya in E.G.?

It was actually a welding instructor.
He says its almost spray arc but the machine does not have enough amperage.
I guess spray arc is use for industrial application.

U dont really do any movement maybe just a whipe and its looks perfect.

Originally posted by IronBenderII


As for the argon mix and wire speed, looks good, but how did it hold?

-Jack

If you get a spray goin it'll penetrate better than your globular transfer weld.

I would check with the local pawn shops. I found a Miller 130XP for $150. Its a little beat up but it was a pretty good deal.

>>I do all of the welds up-hill and with a lot of heat

Before you buy a new welder, try keeping the heat at the recommender level and turning the wire speed up.

A lot of heat welding up is just begging for booger welds.


Having said ditching the flux-core will definitely help also. I love my Miller 175. I run .030 and 75%/25%. :D

Thanks guys. I just picked up some .030 from OSH. We'll see how that does and I'll go from there. Taco, I'm off of Laguna Springs just west of 99. We need to have an EG get together some place...

-Jack

Got my little Hobart 135 for $400 shipped to my door from

http://www.norco-inc.com/

they had brand new welders they were selling on ebay. There were also several other vendors doing the same thing for slightly cheaper then cyberweld.com had welders.

That's between Bruceville and Bighorn right? I drive past that many times a day.

Hey, I'm going to have a bender at my house for 3 weeks. Want to trade some welding for some bending? I have 1 5/8 and 2" die's and its and older JD2.

-Jack

Originally posted by ROCKTACO


Thats funny,you practicly drove by my house on the way.I live off Trenholm drive.

Rudezuke isent far from us eather,off calvine.

Im over at calvine and waterman.......If you need that thing welded up...Im sure that we could work something out!

You need some shiznit bent? We need to pool our resources! Hell, if you guys have a decent welder that runs off of 110 that I could use, that'd be cool. I'll buy the wire and the :beer:! I'm off of Laguna Springs (across from where Home Depot is).

-Jack

Just ordered a bender....Model 3.....My welder is pretty big, and runs off of 220.....Come on over sometime and have a few :beer: with us!

802-3352

Here is my welder....

http://content.lincolnelectric.com/graphics/products/catalog/00001375.jpg

Ya lets hook it up.Give a call sometime.952-4420

I deleted last post.Made mistake:)

Sweet. Barnes Welding Supply is having an open house and sale next weekend. I think I'm going to go down and buy a Hobart 135 and auto darkening hood. I'd love to buy a model 3 as well but don't want to spend that much $$ right now. I'll just borrow my buddies.

I have a buddy with an FJ40 right down on Bruceville as well. We need to hook up for sure and put a few away.

Thanks guys for all of the information.

-Jack
549-5079

I finally just got around to do a first project (3/16" skid plate) with my new 220v. Miller 175 that came loaded with .024" solid core.
I added a 75%/25% mix bottle and only did a few, pretty crappy practice welds prior to this project.
But, dang, it sure didn't take me long to make a decent looking bead using this sweet machine!
Try it, the difference from a flux core 110v. will SHOCK you ...

http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/SkidPlate/BestBead.jpg

See ... Skid Plate Project (http://www.monsterslayer.com/jeep/SkidPlate/SkidPlate.htm)

good looking skid plate! I don't feel like running 220v outles from the box, so I'm going to get the 135. That should be good for my needs.

-Jack

I've been using my hobart 175 w/.030 flux core for about 6 months-works great, just gotta chip and scrape slag all day:( i'm gonna move up to gas as soon as funds allow. by the way, the 175 runs on 220v and can easily weld 3/8" . Its not that hard to make nice looking welds, that is until you get really out of position. It was only $600 shipped from Northern Equipment, so what more can you ask for? hope that helped.

Jaffer, are you going to be adding stiffening bars to the skid? It looks sweet, but it seems that all that weight would tend to bow the plate. I am just wondering since I will be doing something very similar.
Thanks.

Originally posted by zachv
Jaffer, are you going to be adding stiffening bars to the skid? It looks sweet, but it seems that all that weight would tend to bow the plate. I am just wondering since I will be doing something very similar.
Thanks.

I hope the show and tell helps you some when you do yours ...

Yeah, that heavy NV4500 already bowed it down little but it worked (slid) great in Cedar City ... the rocks kept pushing it back up. :)
Now that I have good drive train alignment, I can take it off and drill the bottom under the channel iron trannie perch with two holes so I'm able to bolt down the trannie and it's rubber trannie isolator from underneath instead of needing skinny arms with disjointed wrists to hook it all up. I couldn't cover up the back opening with any more metal before.
Some one inch square or angle iron with the point up should stiffen it right up. I'm leaning to the angle iron idea because it will be easier to spray wash clean in there.

Originally posted by IronBenderII
good looking skid plate! I don't feel like running 220v outles from the box, so I'm going to get the 135. That should be good for my needs.

-Jack


If that all that is stopping you from going 220,my room-mate is an electrition.He is always dooing side work.Just a thought;)

yeah, same with my brother. Since the garage is only fire-taped, and they only thought to put in one outlet in the entire garage, I plan on cutting a band around the middle and running all new outlets (including one 220) and putting them on their own circuit. I just don't want to do it right now.

That and I don't really think that I need to run a 220 machine for what I'll be doing. My little welder has handled some pretty heafty things without failure. I'm sure the 135 will be equally as good with perhaps a better looking weld.

-Jack

If you have a dryer outlet in your house, make an extension cord with a dryer plug on one end, and a welder outlet on the other. I have been running my 220V Miller this way for 4 years!

The bonus is that almost everyone has a dryer outlet - so my welder is as portable as a 110V machine.

Jim

i've had .035 wire in my lincoln 110 machine for a year now. didn't think to change it as it was in it when i bought it. changed to .030
wire today. damn what a difference. this thread alone has been worth my 20 bucks.

dave

Just want to take a moment to thank everybody that chimed in on this. I bought a Hobart 135 and got it fired up for the first time today using an Argon/CO2 mix. That thing does some pretty welds! Not quite the same penetration as my flux core welder, I'll just have to be sure and weld both sides.

-Jack

Nice to here you have made some progress!I too have had a little spair time to get some things done in the past few weeks.Ill post em up here in the next day or so.I think it'll be under "will this hold part lll " I was finaly able to get the hydro assist up and runnin!.............Verry nice
;)

Killer. I welded up a new drag link for the guy in the light green FJ40. The welds almost brought a tear to my eye...

Hey, did RudeZuk get a JD2 or a pro-tools bender? I'm thinking about buying a pro-tools tomorrow and if he has the same one maybe we can work something out to where I get different dies. 2x the number of dies for the same price. And they have a life time warranty so you don't have to worry about breaking them!

-Jack

Do you guys in the US get UNI-MIGS over there?
I have this machine at work and i also have one at home. They work great. I have welded upto 3/4 inch plate with it.

http://www.aussieweld.com.au/images/unimig/175.jpg

After reading this thread I made a few changes to my 110V mig welded and the performance was amazing!!!

I ditched the extension cord (DOH!!! What was I thinking using it in the first place...) Dropped down to .024 wire and the welds penetrated to my satisfacton!!! I actually started started to trip the circuit breaker on the house!! SWEET!!! POWER!!!! ARGHHH!!!

Thanks.

Originally posted by IronBenderII
Killer. I welded up a new drag link for the guy in the light green FJ40. The welds almost brought a tear to my eye...

Hey, did RudeZuk get a JD2 or a pro-tools bender? I'm thinking about buying a pro-tools tomorrow and if he has the same one maybe we can work something out to where I get different dies. 2x the number of dies for the same price. And they have a life time warranty so you don't have to worry about breaking them!

-Jack

I belive that he got the JD-2. Im pretty shure he got all the dies that he needs?

I just wanted to throw in my $.02 on welding fish mouth tubing. I have done a number of cages with a TIG, but the 2 things that made it easier are a good fit between the tubes and lots of practice. I know it sounds obvious, but if your joint is really tight, you can use pretty thin wire and still get a good weld. The thin wire helps keep the puddle flowing because it doesn't cool it off as much. Practice is the main thing. After a couple of hundred hours you will be able to weld cages in your sleep. Hope this is helpful.