Hardening Tube Bending Dies

I talked with Bob at JD2 this afternoon regarding my 2” die set starting to gall the tube being bent. (Leaving large scratches in the bend area) He told me how to do a home case hardening on the follower die shoes. Then also use a spray lube on the tube the help keep it from galling.

In doing a search I did find this discussion on POR about home hardening:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47489&highlight=Hardening+steel
Nothing in the thread about acutely using the following process.

First call MSC (Manhattan Supply Company) at 1-800-645-7270 (they are an industrial supply company with locations throughout the US)

Ask for a 1 lb can of Kasenite, the quote I got on it was $11.86 unshipped.

Apparently this stuff is a powder that you dip pre-heated steel into to create a case Harding. You use your Oxy/acetylene torch to heat the steel cherry red. Any way I just ordered the stuff and will let everyone know how it turns out. Perhaps a write up for the POR tech area if anyone is interested. (Lance?)

Just thought fellow Pirates might be interested in this as well. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?

Just a thought but an even all over heat would seem like a very good thing with something like this. I have made a few small propane fired forges for cheap, cheap, cheap... and these could do very nicely for heat treating smaller parts. I somehow think an even heat with just a torch would be hard to get...

How to build a forge (http://www.reil1.net/design1.shtml) <--- my .02 cents

I'd like to see results of this..............

I won't bend any tube that isn't clean/rusty....

--sherpa

We have tried the hardening thing on some of our dies/shoes. It failed... It still scratches the hell out of the tubing. We clean the scratches out with a bit of emery cloth on a die grinder, it works for a few more bends ant them the scratches are back. We now just buy a new die about every 2-3 weeks.. We also use lube on every bend, gear oil, grease, what ever works!

Helocat... dang, too bad you're not in Austin. You're welcome to come over and use some of my Kasenite & Torch.

I haven't treated my dies. Still have hardened shafts, and some tools with the stuff.

Pour some Kasenite into an clean, dry, coffee can. Use a rosebud tip to heat the following (small) die up, then just drop in the can and shake it around! Dig the part out (magnetic pickup tool). Shake off excess. Return the Kasenite to an AIR TIGHT can after use.

Spudzz... I'm talking about heat treating ONLY the small little die. Actually two small dies on the model 4 JD2. Trying to put an even heat to the large round die (that weighs in at 50 pounds)... save that for a heat treating oven! (Also there is an issue of scale... titanium foil wrapped die anyone?) Yes, would love to make a small scale forge for future casting projects.

Also on the tubing to be bent. Good old nasty smelling WAY OIL (used by machinest for lathes and mills) will last a long time. I think the way oil is heavy with sulfur compounds, but meant to extreme pressure.

As to using bonemeal for parkerizing (surface hardening). There were some great tips in one of Guy Lautard's "Machinist Bedside Reader" books. Books are just a collection of tips and hints... so I never can remember which one had what article. Only thing I remember about bonemeal... never reuse is, as it the carbon and sodium nitrate can make a nice BOOM when reused! Opps.

Tom :usa:

i don't have a bender (yet).

but, i did pick up some PB Blaster brand Teflon Dry Lube (TDL) a couple weeks ago at Menard's and am very impressed with it. it leaves a dry waxy film that is very difficult to rub off. it may be something to try on your dies.

tonight, i'll spray some on a little smooth steel and try to clean it off with brake cleaner and acetone. i would hate for someone to bend up a cage and then the paint not stick...

matt

Originally posted by roundrocktom

Pour some Kasenite into an clean, dry, coffee can. Use a rosebud tip to heat the following (small) die up, then just drop in the can and shake it around! Dig the part out (magnetic pickup tool). Shake off excess. Return the Kasenite to an AIR TIGHT can after use.

Tom :usa:

BRAIN FART! I spaced, and didn't mention QUENCHING the part!!

Ok, so straight from the can of Kasenit:

From the back of the can of KASENIT

For Mild Steel:
1. Heat Part uniformly to a bright red (approx. 1650 degrees)
2. Dip or roll in compound to form a fused shell around the area to be hardened. Reheat to a bright red.
3. Quench immediately in clean cold water using a scrubbing action to
insure maximum cooling rate.
To increase depth, repeat operation No 2 before quenching. To insure maximum of hardness, reheat and repeat operation No. 3

For TOOL STEEL:
Heat part to a light yellow. Deposit in compound and leave until right tempering head is reached, then plunge into clean cold water or oil. This will bring out the utmost in hardness and also prevent cracking.

For DEEPER CASES on Mild Steel:

Immerse part in compound using open, shallow receptacle. Subject to heat of 1650 degrees F for a period from 15 to 60 minutes, depending on depth of case required. Use dry tong to remove part from molten compounds. Quench part only in clean, cold water.


OK... so now go out to the garage and check is that die is mild or tool steel. Hint... if Mild, a file will cut into the metal, it tool steel the file just skips over it. NO, try it on the non-contact area!

Meanwhile... stop on by, pull up a chair, open a Shiner... and I'll have a good excuse to stop painting fawking trim (I just hate getting a house ready to sell... much rather wrench. Now I know why the painter estimated $3000 to paint the INSIDE of the house... all the trim really needs sanding, primer, paint!)

Tom :usa:

Helocat,
Thanks for starting this thread. I've got the JD2 Model 3 and I've had the same problem with the 2" followers. I spoke to Bob at JD2 last fall and he gave me a song and dance that my tubing was too large in dia, (my wife never says that) it must have rust on it (it doesn't), he made it sound like I was the only person that has that problem. The only advice he would give me is too increase the radius on the leading edge of the follower. I'll contact them and get another set of followers.
Thanks,
Mike :usa:

on model 3's are u guys speaking of the "follow-bar" that the tube runs thru before it hits the die?

Originally posted by roundrocktom
Helocat... dang, too bad you're not in Austin. You're welcome to come over and use some of my Kasenite & Torch.

I haven't treated my dies. Still have hardened shafts, and some tools with the stuff.

Spudzz... I'm talking about heat treating ONLY the small little die. Actually two small dies on the model 4 JD2.

Also on the tubing to be bent. Good old nasty smelling WAY OIL

Tom :usa:

Tom,

You got it right on the head; it is the two small contact dies on the follower that are galling on my JD4. (for others: the only die that is in motion bending) I will see want I end up with, I don’t think I will have a uniformity heat issue with the small parts (2”x2”). The Kasenite should be here next week, I currently don’t have a rose bud tip for the torch good excuse to get one. When I talked with Bob at JD2 he said this is what the recommend for any galling issues and does this on some of his own die sets. He indicated it just takes to long to do for production other wise he would consider it for all dies sold. Bob then indicated this really is not a problem for most benders anyway. Great tip on the way lube! Yes that stuff has its own smell and is for extreme pressure. I will give it a shot by just robbing a few Oz. out of the tank on my mill. I need to get another gallon of the stuff anyway. That Shiner Bock sounds great! Yup TX is a more than a few states away from OR. Good luck on the painting, I know how that really bites. I too am starting to judge jobs around the house as “hmm this leaves me with less time to work on the rig… dos it need to be done?”

Mike, sorry to hear you got jacked around by JD2 on the galling. The only thing I can think of is he did say it is due to “over pressure” by the hydraulics. So maybe he thinks the manual bender does not produce the amount of pressure. I would think the pressure to bend manual or hydraulic would be the same in the end on the same tubing.. no idea. I am sure they will take care of you when you call. The other thing I think that helped me out is my die set is only one month old. He indicated the follower dies for the JD4 are only $15.00 each to replace, if purchased.

Galling must be an issue at some point since Bob stated they where testing a new harder steel for producing their die sets. He indicated it is a powder cast process so it will be quite a bit of time if they move to this. (casting dies are big $$ each!)

Slotoy: I am not familiar with the JD3 benders follower die, it should be the only die that drags across the tube during the bending process. On my JD4, it is this dragging process against the steel of the tube that is creating the galling. Once the die has the gulling on it (raised bumps on the die) it then leaves large scratches or furrows in the next tube being bent.

Mark

mark,
the model 3 just has one follow die.. it sits stationary and just keeps the tube going into the die correctly while the die is spun around.. probably wouldn't be much to replace one anyways.. i'm more worried about keeping a $250 die in good shape.. i hope nothing happens to it =] :D

Originally posted by helocat


When I talked with Bob at JD2 he said this is what the recommend for any galling issues and does this on some of his own die sets. He indicated it just takes to long to do for production other wise he would consider it for all dies sold.

It sounds a little lame because for $3-4,000 he could get a medium size heat treating oven and put a proper case surface on about 100 of the parts overnight.

So how has the home hardening worked? What degree of scratching is normal? Brand new JD2 Model 4 playing with 1.75 .120 HREW, and it leaves light scratches past the bend caused by the outboard (straight) follower die. I am trying to determine if this is normal. They're little catch-your-fingernail scratches, not deep gouges. Seems the inboard die smooths them back out.

a little scratching is normal . you need to lube the backing die or it will scratch badly . when my dies become galled i use a spiral band to polish them out . then make sure you clean your tubing and use lots of lube .. thats it

alan

I imagine the powder casting/sintered metal is the reason he doesnt heat treat them in hous. You really cant get a decent thermal treatment, other than a stress relieve on a cast part. You have to do all the hardening on the part when it is cast. The only thing you can do to a cast piece is bring the harness down, not up.

here's a few good ol' machinist tips on using Kasenit........

get a cheap ( dollar store ) baking tray/ cookie sheet to collect all the un used powder

and while you're at the dollar store get a cheap flour sifter to spread the stuff on ( makes it wayyy easier )

oh yeah the green smoke just can't be good for you so a well ventilated area and a respirator are a good idea
aside from that just follow the directions and it helps to have a wire wheel to clean off the scale afterwards

I have also had a model 4 jd2 die that scratched tube quite badly when first used and it got progressively worse. The problem seemed to be caused by the angled leading edge of the follower die (or pressure die?- the one theat slides on the tube)being machined at the wrong angle for the radius & the die galled. The problem was eliminated by grinding away enough of the leading edge & changing the angle slightly to keep the contact patch of the tube centered in the die instead of digging in.
I have also had a jd2 follower die that had the word "top" on the wrong side- no big deal, just glad I noticed.
Also have had one that didn't have the right holes drilled in it- one call and they cheerfully sent the right one 2 day air.
I would have to say that their customer service made up for the bad spell of poor quality control, being that all of the latest dies Ive bought from them seem to be of higher quality & work great- lots of tube bent & not a hint of scratching.:)

My 1.75 x 5.5 JD4 die does this too.

Originally posted by liliysdad
I imagine the powder casting/sintered metal is the reason he doesnt heat treat them in hous. You really cant get a decent thermal treatment, other than a stress relieve on a cast part. You have to do all the hardening on the part when it is cast. The only thing you can do to a cast piece is bring the harness down, not up.

These parts are not powdered or sintered metal. They are cut & then machined from plate.

Anyways JD2 is fawked up for giving us these chunks of "plain jane steel" , and calling them dies. I myself have a model 4 with full enerpac hydrualics , and that mother fawker galled dies right from the get go. THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!! I called them several months ago about this , and they said they would get back to me hmmmmmmm they never did, and I even sent BOB pictures , and detailed info about the problem & possible solutions to it.
i have had to repair my pressure dies for both my 2inch & 1.5 a couple times now , and trust me they have minimal use. Each time I do it it takes several hours (TIG weld spots use dye to find high spots dremal tool & very small hand files). If it did not cost me some cash I would throw it in the trash & buy from somebody who can put just abit more thought into there products-----I dont fawk my customers , and I certainly dont expect my suppliers to fawk me.

JD2 your customer service sucks , your delivery time sucks, you need to answer your phone during business hours , etc. etc. etc..

Anyways since I have to live with this hunk of shit the best remedy I have found is to use synthetic grease on the pressure die & the tube in copious amounts. In fact I have had 0 problems after using mobil1 on everything.

WHY dont they talk about lubing the shit out of the dies in there manuals? Why dont they (after many years of producing these) have it figured out????????
PBB members go out and buy a protools or anything cuase JD just plain lags in every department.

On the home heat treat with the powder- I dont think you can realistically achive your goal. I would be more interested in getting a heat treat shop say in sac or reno that could do it properly (maintain tolerances) price probably would not be that bad or maybe have a machinest make you a set of new pressure dies.

Someone sould email this to JD2 so they know the word is out!, and that BOB shouldn't buy a new house cuase his sales are going to drop suddenly due to his lame ass not taking care of people.

I should send you (BOB) an invoice for all the back logged time trying to fix my my fawking pressure dies. Time is money , and this bender sure takes alot of time to make money!!!!!!!!:(

PS-I think we will all start to realize how BIG of a problem this is.

If you have a JD2 bender SPEAK UP - GOOD OR BAD.

Gallings a major problem. I agree 100% and copious amounts of lube seems to help. Havent hardened the dies yet, but then again I shouldnt HAVE to.

If you are going to heat treat these, or any steel, and want achieve a tru quench and temper, the rule for time is 1hr per inch, 2hs minimum@1550, quench, then draw at the appropriate draw temp, depending on material(what is this stuff?) for three hours minimum.

You guys ought to look up a local heat treater, and see wht it would cost to have these dies carburized. That would give you the ultimate hardness.


OH< I used to be a heat treater by profession.

Originally posted by mike
Havent hardened the dies yet, but then again I shouldnt HAVE to.

EXACTLY!!! JD2 SUCKS, and they have known this was a problem many moons ago.

so Mike you gonna send this to link to them?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by weldpro

so Mike you gonna send this to link to them?:flipoff2:


Oh yea, like I even know anyones email address there, I bought mine through a reseller, and Im wishin I'd gone pro-tools

[QUOTE]Originally posted by liliysdad
[B](what is this stuff?)

My guess becuase of how the tube is effected exactly the same as the die that it is low carbon plate such as ASTM A36

info@jd2.com

But my gut tells me they dont know how to answer it -----------kinda like they're telephone!

Thats why I dealt with van sant. Maybe I'll send them this link.

I am guesing that JD is buying a soft steel, so that it is easier on the machinists and machines, and not bothering to quench and temper it to bring the hardness back up, to save a few bucks. Has anyone ever done a hardness test on these dies?

Just wondering if anyone had tried antiseeze as a lube?
Messy as heck!
No experiance, just curious.

K.

My JD2 needs a regular greasing of the dies to keep from scoring up the tubing. Definately a problem! I'm interested in how the heat treating works out for eveyone in t he short term, but will be replacing this bender with something else in the future.

Ill chime in, im no bender expert.... I have noticed a few friends with the JD benders generate gauling on bends (various dies), my pro tool 105 doesnt (yet) dont know if i just havent used it enough...

Pre bending, i feel the tube in the area to bend, some ERW tubes i have purchased have a raised seam and i could see if this were draged over the guide it could chew it up quick, i use some heavy sand paper or small file for the ~18" i plan to bend on . This also cleans it up a bit if its been sitting. Typically i have been just using lots of spray silicone, this seems to work better than WD40 ill defintly be stepping up the lube to a greese/ oil lube to prevent any problems.

Good luck keep the thread updated with any new info...

-yag

Originally posted by weldpro
PS-I think we will all start to realize how BIG of a problem this is.

If you have a JD2 bender SPEAK UP - GOOD OR BAD.

I thought it was ME doing something wrong---NOT NOW!! Everyone should e-mail this thread to them to see if they are big enough to STAND BEHIND THEIR PRODUCT!!

while someone else was using my bender they didn't even bother to wipe the dirt/shipping oil off hte tube and made a few bends, i've used sandpaper/emery cloth, the scratches aren't to bad in teh tub, but i tkinda pisses me off...

I emaied this to them;)

I've had my JD2 model 3 for about 5 years now and it scratches the tube a bit. I have the old style dies that doesn't have the removeable pieces. I called MTech and the guy told me they were redesigning the dies with removeable "ears" to help out. He also suggested getting the dies hardened. I've never gotten around to ordering a new die I've just cleaned up mine as it goes. I always clean up the tube and use tons or WD40. I never had any trouble until I lent my bender to a friend. It's been scratching tube every since. The dies are consumable accept that or get $$$$$ and buy a better bender. The JD2 works great for garage use.

Travis

I am so glad to hear im not the only one.I run a fab shop in LA and use a JD2 model 4.Nice machine but the dies stink.I do a lot of roll cages so I use the 2 inch dies a lot.But im haveing to by new forming shoes every month or so.It sucks to have to bend up a cage for a dude and hand it to him all scratched up.I called them on this the first time and they sent me a set free.Cool but was that to just keep me quiet???I hardened a set once and it did'nt seem to help.They lasted about the same amount of time.Personally I have a feeling there tolorances may be off,as far as how the dies are placed in relation to each other.Maybe to close to each other???These benders cost to much money to be f@#%ing up so soon.Hopefully they step up to the plate and fix the problem.
Simon

Same problem here. Galled tube sucks!

ya...same here....got a JD2 model 3 and noticed the gall marks getting bigger and bigger before the first exo was done. Shouldn't have to lube it if it was truly hardened.

Originally posted by Overkiller
The dies are consumable accept that or get $$$$$ and buy a better bender. The JD2 works great for garage use.
[/B]

The model four is supposed to be able to be used in a job shop with lots of use. Mike Shaffer uses one in his shop , and I belive the first time he used it the hydro cylinder seal blew out:( .

I will give some kudos to the ingenious design & simplicity of the M4 & M3 the do work well UNTIL it starts to gall things up.

****How much are the replacement shoes?****
I guess if they were like 10-15 maybe I would not freak so much BUT I would rather pay $50-60 more for shoes that are not considered consumables ESPECIALLY given they can go right at the very first bend. Also the underlying deal would be thrashing expensive tubing (YOU CANNOT rightly give or sell someone a cage with galling marks in it , and if you do YOU SUCK) , creating weak spots in the tube (JD2 can you say potential liabilty! ie. unseen galling)

aahhh this whole thread has got me thinking..........

On this model 4 the scratching is only caused by the outboard die, almost as if the angled inner die is smoothing the marks back out. The scratches would probably take 2 seconds apiece to remove with a flap wheel, but it sucks that a brand-new $$$ machine does this. I got some more tube today in different sizes and will see if they do the same.

Since it seems a lot of these are doing the same thing.. is it universal? Pro-tools, tube shark, do they leave any scratches? 5.5 radius .120 wall does take a lot of pressure.

Think any potential JD2 sales are hanging on this thread?

edit: let's see some pics of galling so I know what to compare to.

Harder?
My little JD2 will Gall if not lube'd with some good old Molly (best thing I've found)

MY TB60 however uses a Bronze (SOFTER) and I can order Polly sets.... Softer= no Gall.....

Someone please explain....
How is make'n your follower harder than your tube gonna keep the tube from get'n scratch'd? If you could make'm just a bit softer you would'nt gall the follower...my.02

Problem I've noticed is somehow the die surface gets abraded, then that tears chunks outa the tubing. If the surface was hardened it wouldnt get abraded. For now I just grease the shit out of it and tend to the die when needed

When I first got my model 3, it galled the tube bad. Really deep scrapes on the outside of the bend. It ruined the tube, and almost ruined the pressure die. If the manual would have made mention of this I would have lubed from the start. To fix it, I cleaned up the pressure die with a die grinder and now always soke it down with WD40 before every bend. It still scratches but nothing like it was. If I forget to lube it I can see it galling immediately. I don't know what the solution is, but if I built cages professionally with a JD2, I'd be pissed!!

Alright....I'll chime in too...

SAME F'IN issue with my bender....The gal at JD gave me the song and dance about how I SHOULD'NT lube the tube...WTF?

Anyway she suggested hardening of the dies too...However I questioned them about the carbon content of the steel they used, and I believe they said 10-05...???

Well that's a pretty low carbon content to harden effectivley, so I skipped it.

Funny thing is that with DOM my follower won't gall...Toss in a stick of HERW and it'll gall all to fawk on the first pull.

O'yea, and yes they DID NOT warranty the follower dies...Paied $15 ea + shipping.

--D

Originally posted by RockRover
Alright....I'll chime in too...



Funny thing is that with DOM my follower won't gall...Toss in a stick of HERW and it'll gall all to fawk on the first pull.


--D

Sooooo...... Your say'n that when the follower is "softer" than the Tube it doesn't or is less likely to gall....;)

I guess my point is ..... Your trying to save the TUBE, not the die!!!!

If there are scratches in the Follower than that sould be fine!!
(TB60 has very minor scratches) but the tube is PERFECT!..

Not soft enuff to wear out but soft'r than the tube...
My 2" bronze die has seen well over 10,000 bends and is still fine...
KEEP YOUR TUBE CLEAN and use lube... until they come up with sumptin better....:D

Myself and 3 others are splitting the cost of a bender! I tried calling JD2 today to order and nobody would answer the phone!!! After reading this post I am second guessing my choice! As posted above, does the pro-tools dies do the same? Cost isn't an issue, thought we would stick to a brand that others in the area are using so we can borrow dies! But if they suck I will order up a Pro tools unit!!!

:beer: :beer: :beer:

Originally posted by Tin Bender
I guess my point is ..... Your trying to save the TUBE, not the die!!!!

If there are scratches in the Follower than that sould be fine!!
(TB60 has very minor scratches) but the tube is PERFECT!..

Not soft enuff to wear out but soft'r than the tube...
My 2" bronze die has seen well over 10,000 bends and is still fine...
KEEP YOUR TUBE CLEAN and use lube... until they come up with sumptin better....:D

Like maybe we can get em to make bronze follower dies?

Tin Bender,
Actually that does make sence hmmm.... bronze.. good idea.
Your right -saving the tube is the most important thing but when a jd follower(3) or pressure die (4) goes it just continues to wreck the tube.

Oh and the first grease I used was moly but that does not seem to work as well as the synthetic!

How well can you get it clean? Paint problems? I might need to Switchup:D

we got our JD2 3 weeks ago, and have done perhaps 50 bends on it. we ordered the PROTOOLS dies, rather than the JD2 and it hasnt fawked up any tube yet. the pro tools manual specifically states in huge letters to apply massive amounts to lube to the follower, and ensure that the round die is perfectly clean and free of lube. it also states that the tube itself should be free of abrasions.

in short, i read the directions, followed them, and havent had any problems. of course 50 bends over 2 weeks isnt a really good longetivity test.

OK I agree, for the guys on here that use the model 4s they shouldn't have to deal with tube galling at those prices. My Model 3 works fine for my needs, if I felt the need to pony up the dough for a better bender JD2 wouldn't be my choice. I just clean up the follower die periodically and remember how much less my bender cost then my friends. With a lot of WD40 I get next to no scratching. I've worked in shops that used JD2 model 3s all day long bending sand cars with zero scratching, granted it was 4130. And I've worked with big $ hossfield style benders that scratched the piss out of the tube since no one ever lubed them. Also has anyone ever seen a broken JD2 die? I've seen plenty of busted hossfield dies but never a JD2.

Travis

After my first die set galled on me I ground a shallow chamfer on the leading & trailing edges to make the tube slide in the center of the die & now works good. Even slightly rusty tube will jack up a die in a hurry- dont do it! Once the die is scratched its necessary to clean it up with a sandpaper roll to keep it from scratching the tubing. I also ALWAYS use SUPER LUBE- its a drying hi pressure waxy teflon aerosol goo, messy as hell but better than screwing up dies/ tube. (It works better than wd-40 IMO). Why doesn't jd2 mention this in the instructions? Lubing is mandatory! As I said before, the latest die set came chamfered and seems to have the right angle to it,although it did take over a month to get it. :shaking: Its a 1.5, 5.5 r.
Last week I bought a couple of Pro Tools dies- 1" square & 1" round. They're made for the jd2 model 2 or 3 but were half price & couldn't resist the challenge of modifying them to work for the mod.4.They work great- no sratching .hrew is the only thing i've tried.

Just for curiosity did an okie hardness test on the jd2 & the pro tools dies- automatic center punch makes about a 1/3 larger crater in the jd2. Just as you guys were saying, it's softer steel.

Originally posted by Overkiller
OK I agree, for the guys on here that use the model 4s they shouldn't have to deal with tube galling at those prices.

Dude, the dies are the same cost. And that's what we're talking about here. Not the bender itself.

I know this may not be workable on a JD2 or Pro-Tools bender, but if someone were making their own frame, could you use a second, round roller/die as the pressure die instead of the flat piece?

Ya know, make the smaller, round die rotate around the large forming die. No sliding contact on the tube, so no galling or scraping on it. Being a simple, relatively small round die with no special cuts or brackets on it shouldn't be too expensive to have made, but you would need one for each tube diameter.

--Dan

The contact pressure of a round rolller is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY smaller than that of a standard follower....
(If any of you have used a Harbor Freight bender) you'll know about the two small dents that a roller would leave, yes it's forming the PIPE from the center out, but I would imagine the effect would almost be the same...:confused:

I was thinking... Ya I know big mistake..

If the outside die were longer and rode against a roller pin. it would move with the Tube eliminate the galling all together.

Kodak, yeah, that would solve the whole problem... The pressure die would have to be pretty long... it would have to be as long as the circumference of the bend:

1.75" 6"CLR 240* forming die would need a 25.1" pressure die to cover the full 240* bend. Or a 18.9" pressure die to cover 180* bends.

that would be pretty akward, but would solve the gauling prob for sure as there would be no sliding action at all.


5.9ctd_fj40 and I are going halves on a bender this week... so I've been glued to this thread trying to figure out which bender has the least gauling problems, as this sounds like a pain in the ass... at this point it sounds to me like the pro-tools dies are the way to go...?

i use lots of gunk, white lithium grease on the follower and have had no probs, innitially i had a few scratches in the tube and the follower, but i was using used motor oil as a lube back then.

:)

I also have the model 3 and can attest to the fact that the tube needs to be real clean. I have only made 2 90's but I can see how the tube drags the follower and after bending 2 90's you can see small drag marks on the tube. The surface of the follower is still machine smooth so I figger the marks on the tube must be from crap on the tube.
I use grease and lots of it.

top

anybody have a junk die that they want to send me? I have an idea but I'm not going to give it away to the manufacturing facility:rolleyes: I will pay shipping and if the idea works (should)the person that sent the die will get some freebies:D

my 1.75" dies started galling right away, I was very carefull about cleaning and lubing but it didn't seem to make any difference.

after spending $45 on a new wiper die and $100 to have it heat treated it seems to have solved the problem.

I'm not real worried about small scratches- mine started leaving huge gouges in the tube that made me worry about weakening the tube.

when I called JD2 was fully aware of the problem. Given the option I would have paid more to get the right shit.

I too have been pissed with the quality of JD2 shit. My original 1.5" die has never galled and I've bent ERHW and DOM tubing.
The 2" die has galled from day one, sometimes I have to blend it after every two bends.
A buddy wanted me to bend some 1.5" tubing on a 6.5 radius for his Reynard formula car. Anyway he bought the die and tubing (DOM) to the shop and I did the set-up and bends. Two bends 158' and 169'. They're beautiful. I bent them dry, I cleaned the tubing with mineral spirits and didn't use a drop of lube.
WTF!
Mike

I believe JD2 says not to use lube.

jd2 dies will gall tube if no lube is used. all the stuff Ant and I have bent we used wd40 on everything. now I'm using a lithium
spray grease. messy, but the dies stay nice.

--Sherpa

has anyone tried a layer of thick wax paper or simular on the follower side of the bend...something to run interferance

From wht I ve heard JD is now selling different dies with thier stuff?

If not wher to get the best dies?

Originally posted by Eric
I believe JD2 says not to use lube.

Not this again...

Anyone ever try their polymer die?

Originally posted by Shrock
Anyone ever try their polymer die?
What polymer die? Guess I gotta do some research...

Originally posted by SHERPA
jd2 dies will gall tube if no lube is used. all the stuff Ant and I have bent we used wd40 on everything. now I'm using a lithium
spray grease. messy, but the dies stay nice.

--Sherpa

Where did you get it? I have mostly used WD40 or Synthetic Motor oil. No problems with my follower dies.

Originally posted by SHERPA
jd2 dies will gall tube if no lube is used. all the stuff Ant and I have bent we used wd40 on everything. now I'm using a lithium
spray grease. messy, but the dies stay nice.

--Sherpa

Where did you get it? I have mostly used WD40 or Synthetic Motor oil. No problems with my follower dies.

Spray lithium grease - Autoparts store, Home Dept, Lowes, easy to find.

From what I've heard, they are still making the dies from the orginal material at this point.

theres a rockwell hardness tester here at my work. if someone wants to send me a couple dies, i could get some numbers for you all.

I have a large manufacturing facility in Norcal with all the heat treating capabilities. It is quite costly to heat treat single orders at a heat treat job shop, but If everyone was interested I could supply this service. One wheeler to another at quite a savings I am sure. We need to identify the grade of material and how it was originally created(casting or machining). Secondly I feel it would be better to harden the dies instead of the softer die theory for the following reasons. It seems to me that the two materials(die vs. tubing) are building too much friction and the die is failing at an undesirably low pressure. As it begins to gall the tubing in turn also galls and a snowball situation occurs. If these dies could be made out of different material to begin with(S7,O1,A2, etc.) than heat treated accordingly. Also for anyone with dies already in hand a secondary heat treating from me or another source might yield an acceptable die and situation. If you go with the die softer than tube theory I feel an ill result will occur. Yes you will save miles of tube, but your die will begin to take on a irratical shape and eventually be too worn to achieve satisfactory results- a die that is considered a consumable-fuck that! I will follow this thread or feel free to PM me if anyone wants to take me up on my heat treating offer. Also, I have a Protool that galls the same as the Jd. Possibly not as much, and I would have to compare galls to really tell. For what it is worth my follower die on a 1 1/2" bender Rockwell tests at a "0" on the C scale which is super soft. I have had too clean it up a couple of times in a short time already.------
:flipoff: galling!!!!!

Here is a pic of the scratching. This is the first bend where it began. i.e the bends before this one looked great.

You can see how a small area of tube was was peeled back then the scratching began from the die damage that resulted.

The tube here is 1.75x.156 DOM

http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/scratching.jpg

Originally posted by Shrock
Here is a pic of the scratching. This is the first bend where it began. i.e the bends before this one looked great.

You can see how a small area of tube was was peeled back then the scratching began from the die damage that resulted.

The tube here is 1.75x.156 DOM

http://www.shrockworks.com/Forum_Images/scratching.jpg

Yup, that's fawked up!..........nice looking weld though;)

Originally posted by ROCKSFORBRAINS
After my first die set galled on me I ground a shallow chamfer on the leading & trailing edges to make the tube slide in the center of the die & now works good.

I think that is the problem with my follower die on my NEW protools 105. When I look at the follower only about half of the leading and tailing edges touch the tube. On my mirror polished die you can see the contact area.

2in 240degree die and follower, pro tools from rock buggy supply.
2in 120 wall HREW tube, new, no rust.
10 bends before gulling.
re polished
3 more bends then more gulling.

Before any bends the tube was cleaned, then sanded with 600 grit then cleaned and sprayed with litium grease, the follower was polished before any bending, and cleaned and spray with lithium grease every time.

Looks like my floower die was machined to not fit my round die....
I noticed the half contact area problem on my first clean bend but it did not gull till now....

Ill have to file it down some when I remove the gulls tonight..


What a PITA.. :rolleyes:
Ive spent more time polishing then bending..

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ





What a PITA.. :rolleyes:
Ive spent more time polishing then bending..

thank You for posting up, good info to know, this is interesting that the pro-tools also can have a problem. Have you contacted the maker to see if they will send you a new, correctly made die/follower combo?

Originally posted by SeaBass44


thank You for posting up, good info to know, this is interesting that the pro-tools also can have a problem. Have you contacted the maker to see if they will send you a new, correctly made die/follower combo?

Not yet.

I figure if I need to grind down the leading and trail edges, each time i remove the gulling marks I will get it closer to correct shape, so Im hoping it will ware itself in as I bend/repolish repeatidly.

It would take forever to get the die sent out and back to me.. I need to bend some tube tonight, tomorrow... gotta get these projects done...

A PITA tool is better then no tool.

I have a model 3 and my 1.75 5.5 is the worst! Almost every bend it starts to gall. I've never had a "real" problem with my 1.5 5.5. But I think the reason is just that it takes more pressure to bend a 2" tube than a 1.5" tube (.120). With that and the die being the same material for the dies, it's easy to see why the 2" are failing more than the smaller dies. It would be nice to see a change in the design.:(

**edit** I use greese, it's messy and after a couple of bends the follow bar looks like it's had some "private time" :laughing:

sythentic ATF works great for lube. Used it to bend 1.25 .049" wall chromo without kinking the tube.

Has anyone else had a problem with the ProTools doing the same thing. Seems like the JD2 is losing this contest so far.

My ProTools die did this. So I'm having a friend machine me a new one out of something harder :D

Can someone post a pic of the exact part causing the galling? I'm assembling the parts for a hydro setup and haven't decided on the JD or PT model.

Someone mentioned a polymer follower - What about a UHMW shoe with a steel backer plate?

My protools does the same thing.

Has anyone else had a problem with the ProTools doing the same thing. Seems like the JD2 is losing this contest so far.My Pro-Tools has the same problem, always clean and lube but it doesn't seem to matter :mad3: Anyone with some recent info?

Man...Talk about resurecting this post from the dead...This was going on 3 years ago! I assume we are all haveing the same problems...No?

I use a JD2 setup with hydro for my business a lot and had the galling problem at first. From the advice on someone here I took the follower die and used a flap wheel on a die grinder to smooth it out. Did this about 2-3 times total before I got it fine tuned juuust right and it hasn't done it since (about a year now). I did mess them up a bit bending some ugly tube and ordered a new set of followers. The new ones appear to be cast aluminum and are working fine right out of the box.

I would bet $$$$$ that everyone is still experiencing the same thing as before. I personally just deal with it lots of lube , and grease followed by the occasional fix the shoe days!
Tin Bender is a smart MOFO , and knows his stuff . I belive he is on the right path with the bronze shoes HOWEVER when I look at all of my monthly trade mags (tpj =tube & pipe journal) nowhere do I see the bronze shoes except for the lower line benders-in this journal ($10K-20K I know this is not cheap but for TPJ , and big business it is). The benders they show are all steel dies. This month shows a totally automated setup with three shoes/diameters in one shot , and again its all steel> also to be noted I dont see any type of lube system pictured. My guess is that the shoes are hardened. Sometime in the future I will most likely end up with a Ercolina with a full mandrel setup much like Air Rides. I *think* his follower shoes are bronze.
When I bought my M4 I did not expect to be using it to the capacity that I currently do , and if I did I would have went with the Ecolina from the get go.
Richard

The new ones appear to be cast aluminum and are working fine right out of the box.

Put a magnet to it , and tell us more. Also pictures would be helpful.
Richard

I knew you would reply richard:) keepin busy? still got the buggy?

Has anyone else had a problem with the ProTools doing the same thing. Seems like the JD2 is losing this contest so far.



Not once with my Pro Tools HD and I've bent over 500' of 1.75 / .120 wall.

But I am anal about keeping everything clean and lubed.

Back from the dead again....

JD2 does have a new material for the inserts finally. They wouldn't tell me exactlty what it is, but said it is a "bearing material". I heard rumor here they were Aluminum or cast, but bearing material sounds like some kinda tool steel since bearings are usually extremely hard. Maybe it is one of the new powdered metals.

Anyway, I just ordered some of them. Hopefully they work better.

i took all my dies to my machinest and he calculated all the degrees for me now i will take them and tig weld them up with some stellite ( forgot the correct spelling ) or 316 SS, kinda like a hard face and then have them remachined.

i used to do this all the time for plasctic cutter gears and plastic injector molds, works great, i cant see why hard facing my bender dies would be any differnt, i would just have to make sure my machinest gets the degrees on the dies correct. even if he has to cut a 1/16 off of the origanl die then i can build up what i need.

stellite is very abrasion resitance and we used it as a overlay on lower carbon steel and SS steel, i have not run this job ( cutter gears and molds ) for a while but the next time it comes in i will weld up my dies and post the resuilts, jason.

LOL just found this.

jd model 4 second bend in 2" ever tore the follower. sent it in got another, fifth bend new follower starting going. proceed to cus alot!

1.5 die hasnt shown any problems at all. weird.

tube is like polished, before a bend.

Suppose to send me a new 2" follower of the new design?? well havent seen one yet!

cannot tell you what i am doing, :)

ANY LUCK with these new followers?

So far so good with the 1.75. The 1.5 inserts didnt fit in the fawking piece that holds them, so I havent been able to try those yet.

For the curious..... The new new material is definitely softer not harder. So the original topic of this ancient thread "Hardening Dies" does not seem to be the way to go.

It leaves powdered bits of itself on the tube. It seems to be a good bit heavier than aluminum but it is not magnetic. It does appear to be cast then machined. Not sure what it is, dont really care if it works.

I have found the scratching happens from the follower die if:
a) the follower die is not lined up perfect
b) I don't use a roller table for the material hanging back behind the die. It seams like the weight of the material (on a long stick) tends to pull down on the back of the follower and up on the front of the follower and that is where I get my gouging.

It also seams to help to file a radius or a larger radius on the front of the follower die.
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http://www.2020softwaresolutions.com/btez-animated-1.gif

provide image of the radius that you are cutting into the follower die please?