i just recently bought my first jeep on a whim. 81 cj5, all stock i think. $500, anyways, im thinking of getting the howell tbi, just driving around steep driveways im having issues with the carb. it seems like the best option from the interwebbing ive done so far. im not looking to go hardcore, i just want it to work good at the local socal trails. also, i hear my two peice axle is poo, so what are some good cheaper options to go with on that, i would like to lock it. anyways, ill have pics up soon, i think its pretty sweet for 500.

2 peice axle shafts are ka-ka. Your right.
Just get some one peice shafts (i had superior) and as long as you dont do anything too stupid you should be ok. The type of locker you use will have ramifications on your axle shafts as well. I had a 20 in the back of my willys with one peice shafts, 35's and a 350 engine and did fine, even with the skinny pedal.
How do you want to lock it?
I'm guessing a model 20 axle?

i dont know much about it, i think your right on the axle, i know it has a tremec 4 speed and a dana 300. id like to have a selectable locker, i know its pricey but thats one place im willing to spend. also, my valve cover leaks really bad when i turn the motor off, i just realized that its plastic and mounts from the center. whats the best way to seal that thing? my drive way would apreciate any advice. im new to the old jeep world so i really apreciate the advice.

yeah, in the engine department, im a botard. I'd think twice about spending 800 bucks on a locker for a 50 dollar axle though.

Swap the motor, or throw a MC2100 on it for the time being.
Get a couple Aussie lockers and 2 peice shafts. Selectable lockers are a luxury and not a neccesity.
Become friends with a sawzall and tube fenders to fit bigger tires

The list goes on and on, and it gets deep and expensive fast. The above list should keep you capable and on the trail.

for the valve cover get a new cork gasket and a tube or two of RTV. Clean everything REALLY good, spooge the shit outa it and torque her down. i think its 28 inch pounds. it should say on the plastic valve cover.

thanks for all the tips. i ordered an aluminum valve cover, it says jeep on it so its got to be good? how good does the mc2100 werk? is it smogable? it seems like they all come off of pre smog trucks. i dont have a tow rig yet so i have to keep it street legal for now. a local jeep shop told me two convert my rear axle to a one piece, he says it would run like 300. anyways my digicam died right as i took the last pic and i cant find the charger so when i do ill post pics. thanks again

the aluminum valve cover doesnt just jump on. on certain years you will have to tap a hole or 2. and the one sitting in my driveway still leaks cuz i was cheap on the "silly cone".
throttle body injection is good if you have the know how to go to the junkyard and get the parts yourself. the kit is expensive for what it is and howell is crap!
if you really want fuel injection then spend the money on a mopar kit or swap the motor for a late model gm.

id have the carb rebuilt and spend the money on other things for now.

where in so cal are you? i can recommend you to a few good shops. there really is only a few of them.

rebuilt my carb and ran an old cagle fuel pressure regulator. I also ran the fuel line in a loop before it went into the carb. this fixed most of my stalling problems. two peice summers shafts and I did most of the trails in big bear.

my jeep is where its at now because I did a 360 swap, then a chevy hotrod 383 swap, then a corvette TPI swap. Im finally happy with it.

:)

What size tire do you want to eventually run on your ride? If you are going to be happy running a 33" or less tire with the stock six then you won't ever need half the crap these guys are suggesting.

If you want to keep it on the cheap, don't worry about the axles until they break. Remember those two-piece shafts have been in your Jeep for 27 years without catastrophic failure, and with common sense they could last another twenty. Some of my fellow Pirate freinds here could break a steel ball bearing in a padded room armed with only a feather... :mr-t:

I'm just saying don't throw a bunch of money and effort at replacing parts until you know what you want for an end result, lest you end up with over $5000 tied up into a $1200 Cj in a few short years. Go ahead and ask me how I know.:shaking:

I spun the two piece hubs when I was on 32" tires. I spent the day trail riding up in the Big Bear fawnskin area, but as soon as I hit the pavement on my way home they spun. this left me stranded directly in front of the Fawnskin fire house. I was stranded there for about a day untill my MOM came and picked me and my friends up and towed us home with her RV.

replace the shafts its good insurance.

When I spun the shafts I had three dudes plus myself, plus camping gear in a 79' cj7 with the 258 I-6 and quadratrac so you could say I had a full load.
but they still spun

I replaced theshafts with a pair of summers and never had a problem even with a 360 and a heavy foot, but then the 360 blew up, and everything changed...

:)

A lot of people say drive it till' you break it. Problem is it will break at the most inoportune time....like when you are 15 miles into a trail that starts 50 miles from nowhere. I used to say "just run it" until i spent day after day getting jeeps out from nowhere on sundays when nobody is open, or on mondays when im missing work and dont want to ask buddies to miss work with me, both of which, of course, happen with no cell phone reception.

wow, i have a wealth of info now. thanks. its got 31's on there now and i really only hit up gleghorn azusa and sometimes big bear for now, i looked up that mopar mpi and like what i see, i like the idea of a vortec swap but its outside my ability and im not looking to get 4-6,000 deep with labor just yet. i think the mpi and an aussie will keep me happy for at least a year. i just see myself tinkering with junkyard parts, having reliability issues and eventually giving up and getting a kit anyways so i might as well just dish it out early and avoid the headaches. so far, im only into this thing like 1000 bucks so if i can keep it under 4 or 5 grand and conquer the local trails im going to call it a victory. im in torrance by the way, ive been talking to albert at jeep thrills, he seems cool, his prices arent the best but he at least knows what hes talking about. last question, if i go get my carb rebuilt, what do i need to do to it to get better trail performance in the meentime<---(i should have gone to highschool more.)?

Research the "Nutter Bypass" and rebuild the carb. That'll get you wheeling with confidence now. I wouldn't do the MPI unless I was positive I was going to keep it a 6-cyl. Might be happy with it for a year, but there's no sense wasting time wrenching when you could be wheeling.
With 31" tall tires, I'd just run the rear end you've got, two-piece axles and no-locker. When you're ready to let the Jeep grow, I'd plan a set of new axles w/locker around your new suspension. Depending what your trails are like should dictate what axles you'll need.

a.k.a. If you're local trails aren't overly aggressive; 1-piece axle kit, locker, MPI kit, 2.5" OME springs, Revolver shackles. That would make one sweet trail riding Jeep without a whole lot of money.

If you've got rocks and a pension for the skinny pedal.... look in the hardcore section.

Just my opinion, hope it helps.

Read the fine print on that Mopar Kit. 92+ octane. It is in the instructions.

There are some that will argue that they never have ping with lower octane fuel but I haven't seen one yet personally.

I had the mopar kit, great kit and really adds to the motor. No doubt there.
But you will either pay for octane boost or pay for premium fuel, and sometimes both.

It was either time for the 4.0 head conversion or engine swap. Of course I wanted more power as well so it was going to be the Hesco Aluminum Head, cam, rollers and such. In the end the swap was cheaper.

That is the reason I finally ended up with the Vortec swap.

Isnt the Mopar kit like 3k

I would do 1piece axles
Hei Dist and an MC2100
Or a YJ stock head and injection

i dont know much about it, i think your right on the axle, i know it has a tremec 4 speed and a dana 300. id like to have a selectable locker, i know its pricey but thats one place im willing to spend. also, my valve cover leaks really bad when i turn the motor off, i just realized that its plastic and mounts from the center. whats the best way to seal that thing? my drive way would apreciate any advice. im new to the old jeep world so i really apreciate the advice.

Don't lock the M20, get a Dana 44 and put it back there. It doesn't cost much to narrow an axle either if you can't find one narrow enough. I bet you would be $1000 for a Dana 44 rear end narrowed with a locker compared to $800 on the M20. M20's are fine however, and would be much simpler to build. Super strong R/P, weak tubes, oversized diff, and crap diff covers from the factory. Dana 44's are stronger overall, but require a lot of work to get under your jeep.

Do something with the carb, I assume you have a 304? I hear a lot of guys are switching to a fuel injection kit for it, might look into that.

And for offroading, don't forget a fully built rollcage. The most important. It doesn't matter how nice your jeep crawls if when you roll over you die or get seriously injured

i have to agree on not spending too much on a locker for a model 20. wait till you can afford a good rear axle and then pony up for the selectable locker.

I think 80 was the last year for the v8
Aset of 1 piece axles and a lockright would be good enough for awhile until you plan to upgrade the front aswell.

i have the 258, ive had a couple of toyotas and i know minimum that i need a locker. thanks for the heads up on the mopar kit, it isnt my daily driver but my buddy talked me into seeing how good we can make the carb run so thanks for the link to the write up. i think im going to look into this dana 44 thing too, i eventually want to go full width but i need a locker before then. thanks for all the help so far.

Wow, there's a ton of shitty info in this thread. There's some truth in there too though.

Run the 258 if it still has any balls at all, rebuild it and plop a 4.0 head on it if it doesn't. Run the FI off the donor if you want, or just put a mc2100/2150 on the 258's intake manifold for a great offroad-friendly carb. I really think you could get away with the 2100 for smog, just reattach your vacuum lines.

Don't bother trading the AMC20 for a 44, there's not enough gain to be worth it. With only minor upgrades, the 20 is great for 35's. Throw a Lock-Right in it for a couple hundred bucks or a Detroit for a few more, selectables are cool, but unnecessary. If you want to go bigger than 35's, skip the 44 and go for at least a 60.

...and revolver shackles? Come the fuck on. :shaking:


Just because you don't mind spending a few grand on this thing, doesn't mean you actually need to.

...........................If you want to go bigger than 35's, skip the 44 and go for at least a 60.

...and revolver shackles? Come the fuck on. :shaking:

Hold one there, bigger than 35's go a D60?:shaking: Maybe if you like moving rocks out of the trails for you buddies with your diff. With a 258 you can get away with 38's for sure on DANA 44's. He's not running a 500HP supercharged LS2, just a I-6? D60's are heavy, no need for it. By going to a Dana 44 you gain a TON of strength, small upgrade BS. Each dana 44 axle (say off a scout) has a load rating 1000 lbs heavier than the stock axles.

I do agree, revolver shackles are total shit, don't buy them.

Wow, there's a ton of shitty info in this thread. There's some truth in there too though.

Run the 258 if it still has any balls at all, rebuild it and plop a 4.0 head on it if it doesn't. Run the FI off the donor if you want, or just put a mc2100/2150 on the 258's intake manifold for a great offroad-friendly carb. I really think you could get away with the 2100 for smog, just reattach your vacuum lines.

Don't bother trading the AMC20 for a 44, there's not enough gain to be worth it. With only minor upgrades, the 20 is great for 35's. Throw a Lock-Right in it for a couple hundred bucks or a Detroit for a few more, selectables are cool, but unnecessary. If you want to go bigger than 35's, skip the 44 and go for at least a 60.

...and revolver shackles? Come the fuck on. :shaking:


Just because you don't mind spending a few grand on this thing, doesn't mean you actually need to.
x2:shaking:
There is absolutely no justification to spending the money involved in replacing the corp 20 for a D44. the Corp 20 is a better, stronger axle with a minimum amount of money spent on it....a 1pc kit and simple truss and it is already stronger then a D44...and the truss isnt even neccesary unless you're running huge tires or jumping your Jeep off cliffs.
Get rid of the 2pc shafts! As was said, they will fail when you dont want them to...usually turning a corner. Other then that, shelve the idea of a 44. If you are going to spend the money to upgrade to a different axle, go with a 9", D60, or 14b and add appropriate tires (39"+)
Dont be shy about locking it. It will hold up just fine. I've been running a locked corp20 under my CJ for 15 years in every offroad condition with tire sizes rangeing from 29" to 36".

The 4.2 is a good powerplant. Great lowend torque and easy to work on. The great attraction of the 258 is the ability to modify it in a multitude of ways. Between FI options, ignition packages, and head swaps you wont run out of ideas. By the time I was done with mine, it was pushing close to 300hp and over that in torque ft lbs. Unless you have a nice V8 lined up for cheap and have the know-how or funds to get the swap done, just research your engine and learn what you can do to make it work for you.

Do NOT swap out the 20 for a D44. Its a marginal upgrade at best, both axles will run 35s fine as long as the 20 has 1piece shafts. If you are gonna go 37s I speak from experience when I say unless you are gonna totally trick out the Dana 44s then a stock Dana 60 is your best bet. They don't drag as bad as everybody else makes them out to be, theres maybe an 1"-1.5" of more diff hanging down over the span of about 6".

Also alot of people here forget that a 258 has more torque at a lower RPM then even many mild v8s. If I remember correctly they have nearly 90% of their torque right off idle. A 4.0 MPI injected head and a new cam can turn these into firebreathers. They are not to be disrespected in terms of torque. Before I sold my rockcrawler that had gearing up the ass my stock 258 would routinely break u-joints and twist shafts before I went crazy and upgraded everything in my Dana 44s. Which is one of the reasons why I also recommend if you are gonna go 37s it's cheaper down the road to just swap in 60s. A dana 44 with 38s will more then likely not hold up behind a 258, especially in the rocks, maybe a really decked out one, but even then its on borrowed time.

that mopar kit is pricey. but if your gonna spend the the money on a howell its much better to spend a bit more on a much better setup.

that being said. yeah your supposed to run 91 octane. i never did and never had a problem. but still you probably should and its better for your motor anyway. keep in mind that on a 15 gallon tank the cost difference is only 3 dollars.

doing a head swap is a great option with one problem. it doesnt come with a carb sticker so here in cali youd have to go visit mr. referee and thats a pain in the ass.

Pay close attention to the advice given in the later posts in this thread. D44 is not worth swapping in. 1 piece axle shafts and run the AMC 20. I have 35" tires on my CJ7 with no lift running stock axles. They are open and I plan on welding the rear up. If you have drum brakes all the way around don't worry it isnt that hard to swap to discs. People are always ditching the "crappy stock axles" so you can get parts for really cheap. search AMC 20 disc brake conversion on pirate and you will find stuff. My 258 died on me and I swapped in a MPI 4.0L out of a cherokee. They are a dime a dozen in junkyards and can be had for cheap. Best swap I ever did. More power and more fuel economy.

AMC 20 has a 8.875 inch ring gear, 29 spline axle shafts, 1.625" pinion shaft with 28 splines, 7/16-20 ring gear bolts qty 8,13680 lbs x 8 =109440 and fits in your jeep.

Dana 44 has 8.5 inch ring gear, 30 spline axle shafts, 1.375" pinion shaft with 26 splines, 3/8-24 ring gear bolts qty 10,10050lbs x 10 =100500

In summary the only slightly weaker number in the AMC 20 is the 29 spline axle shafts. But everything else is stronger so truss, one piece axle shafts, automatic locker or weld it, gears, diff cover and go. Dana 44 would require fitting it amc 20 requires shafts. One seams alot easier and cheaper especially considering you don't already own a dana 44.

Pay close attention to the advice given in the later posts in this thread. D44 is not worth swapping in. 1 piece axle shafts and run the AMC 20. I have 35" tires on my CJ7 with no lift running stock axles. They are open and I plan on welding the rear up. If you have drum brakes all the way around don't worry it isnt that hard to swap to discs. People are always ditching the "crappy stock axles" so you can get parts for really cheap. search AMC 20 disc brake conversion on pirate and you will find stuff. My 258 died on me and I swapped in a MPI 4.0L out of a cherokee. They are a dime a dozen in junkyards and can be had for cheap. Best swap I ever did. More power and more fuel economy.

AMC 20 has a 8.875 inch ring gear, 29 spline axle shafts, 1.625" pinion shaft with 28 splines, 7/16-20 ring gear bolts qty 8,13680 lbs x 8 =109440 and fits in your jeep.

Dana 44 has 8.5 inch ring gear, 30 spline axle shafts, 1.375" pinion shaft with 26 splines, 3/8-24 ring gear bolts qty 10,10050lbs x 10 =100500

In summary the only slightly weaker number in the AMC 20 is the 29 spline axle shafts. But everything else is stronger so truss, one piece axle shafts, automatic locker or weld it, gears, diff cover and go. Dana 44 would require fitting it amc 20 requires shafts. One seams alot easier and cheaper especially considering you don't already own a dana 44.


If the M20 is so much stronger, then why do they rate a scout Dana 44 1000 lbs more load? Not trying to knock you, I am doing the swap (mostly for width) and just wondering.

A front D44 however is a substantial difference over a LP D30.

I think his question involved cheap and social wheeling. Keep your current junk, work with it, break it, upgrade...evolve as just about every member on the list has. We all wish we'd started with huge junk and piles of cash to spend on it...

FWIW, there isn't enough to be gained swapping your 20 for a 44.

If the M20 is so much stronger, then why do they rate a scout Dana 44 1000 lbs more load? Not trying to knock you, I am doing the swap (mostly for width) and just wondering.

A front D44 however is a substantial difference over a LP D30.

My guess is you learned it the same way you're trying to teach it to this guy. You read it on a board, from someone who read it on a board, etc. There's no way a Scout 44 is rated for 1000# more load than the FSJ's that came with M20's, and the CJ M20's aren't that much different. Not at all after the tips and tricks that have been mentioned in this thread and all the others on this same topic.

I agree that a (HP) Dana 44 is a substantial gain over a LP D30, but a conservative D30 can hold up to 35's for about $500. I know people break em with less, but most don't. I see no reason to ever swap D44's into Jeeps, there's so many better options out there for the same money and work.

Jesus you guys are a tough crowd.

Everybody does their jeep different. My advice is to keep it cheap for awhile

1 inch shackles
1 inch bl
1 inch mm
flatbelly skids
1 piece shafts

that all right there is where you should start.
figure out what size tires you want and sawzall to compensate for the difference.

Later on if you want to swap out axles go for it.
That corp 20 is a pretty decent axle if you treat it good, if you have larger than 35 tires your not going to have a problem unless your running your skinny pedal hot and heavy and get the tire to grab nice and good.

I would agree that once you go to new axles skip the 44's go with 60's. The 44 is stronger than the 20 but not so much that it would facilitate spending money on one.

The most important upgrade you can do for your CJ is a cooler. A nice 5 day deep cooler form wal-mart that will keep road sodas nice and cold while your out wheelin. Second most important upgrade is a manifold burrito box. Look it up its nice to have warm food at a lunch stop.

Pretty sure he should get it running right first.
I think we all agree to put a set of 1 piece axles in.
Try driving it before it becomes a never ending project like most of the builds

after reading all the posts and talking to friends, i have come to this conclusion. im going to try to find a cheap mc2100 and rebuild it, im going to switch to one piece axle and a cheap locker, my transfer case linkage is all janky so im going to swap in a twin stick sinse i have to werk on it anyways and then im going to try my hardest to break something. i have a good idea where i want to take this thing in the future so i want to thank everyone for there advise. i love a good debate so this thread has been exactly what i wanted to get. anyways im currently taking my valve cover off and resealing it. i decided that i like having money in my bank account so im keeping the old one and just trying to make it work.

The plastic one will never seal right. I found an aluminum one on tellico for like $50 several years ago. Don't know if deals like that exist anymore but look around you may find something. Good luck with the Jeep. You will learn so much and meet so many cool people. Welcome to the family :).

looks like they have one for $75 now.
http://www.tellico4x4.com/index.php/cPath/145_367


added website address

Just remember Jeep means
Just Empty Every Pocket

My guess is you learned it the same way you're trying to teach it to this guy. You read it on a board, from someone who read it on a board, etc. There's no way a Scout 44 is rated for 1000# more load than the FSJ's that came with M20's, and the CJ M20's aren't that much different. Not at all after the tips and tricks that have been mentioned in this thread and all the others on this same topic.

I agree that a (HP) Dana 44 is a substantial gain over a LP D30, but a conservative D30 can hold up to 35's for about $500. I know people break em with less, but most don't. I see no reason to ever swap D44's into Jeeps, there's so many better options out there for the same money and work.

Could be true, but we don't know? I actually heard this from a friend (who owns a scout II as a wheeler). I can tell you for a fact as I have the M20 under my jeep and the D44's in the garage that the scout rear D44 is MUCH, and I mean MUCH bigger in means of thicker tubes, heavier housing. I cannot move that rear axle around and its STOCK, unlike my full built M20 I could lift, which obviously says something. You could run 38x15 boggers all day on chromo shafts with a moderate drivtrain on the D44's, if you're talking full size trucks and not jeeps, hell yeah D60's, 14 bolt, whatever. But when you go that route, you loose the low weight and agility of a "Jeep."

Could be true, but we don't know? I actually heard this from a friend (who owns a scout II as a wheeler). I can tell you for a fact as I have the M20 under my jeep and the D44's in the garage that the scout rear D44 is MUCH, and I mean MUCH bigger in means of thicker tubes, heavier housing. I cannot move that rear axle around and its STOCK, unlike my full built M20 I could lift, which obviously says something. You could run 38x15 boggers all day on chromo shafts with a moderate drivtrain on the D44's, if you're talking full size trucks and not jeeps, hell yeah D60's, 14 bolt, whatever. But when you go that route, you loose the low weight and agility of a "Jeep."

*sigh*

Bigger axles are unsprung weight. Unless you are adding a ton, the extra weight on the axles actually helps you, it doesn't affect agility and the extra weight is similar to having a full sized man with you in the Jeep. I had a friend who had 38s a 235 HP TPI 350 and a Dana 44 with 60 outers. We both played in the rocks and did lines that even your recreational wheeler wouldn't even try. He would blow that thing up on a regular basis. He has since gone to 37s and a true d60 in the front, as with quite a few of my friends who had the cash to do it. Everybody got tired of the Dana 44s slowly deteriorating because we were pushing them to their limits.

I'm fortunate enough to have about 5 areas all within 20 mins of where I live. Our favorite areas require 37" tires, lockers and a roll cage. We used to wheel it multiple times a week when the economy was good. Dana 44s even built are mediocre at best when you have 37s and even more so behind a strong motor or when combined with crawler gearing. I would run them all day on a 35 and never think a thought, but real world wheeling and experience and not some guy on the internet has taught me that a Dana 44 when approaching its limit is no more reliable in terms of Axle vs. tire size then a Dana 35 on 33s, just like a 9" running 40s or a Dana 60 running 44s. Hence many of us who really wheel our rigs are going back again and ponying up for 60s.

*sigh*

Bigger axles are unsprung weight. Unless you are adding a ton, the extra weight on the axles actually helps you, it doesn't affect agility and the extra weight is similar to having a full sized man with you in the Jeep. I had a friend who had 38s a 235 HP TPI 350 and a Dana 44 with 60 outers. We both played in the rocks and did lines that even your recreational wheeler wouldn't even try. He would blow that thing up on a regular basis. He has since gone to 37s and a true d60 in the front, as with quite a few of my friends who had the cash to do it. Everybody got tired of the Dana 44s slowly deteriorating because we were pushing them to their limits.

I'm fortunate enough to have about 5 areas all within 20 mins of where I live. Our favorite areas require 37" tires, lockers and a roll cage. We used to wheel it multiple times a week when the economy was good. Dana 44s even built are mediocre at best when you have 37s and even more so behind a strong motor or when combined with crawler gearing. I would run them all day on a 35 and never think a thought, but real world wheeling and experience and not some guy on the internet has taught me that a Dana 44 when approaching its limit is no more reliable in terms of Axle vs. tire size then a Dana 35 on 33s, just like a 9" running 40s or a Dana 60 running 44s. Hence many of us who really wheel our rigs are going back again and ponying up for 60s.

Okay I see your point, but everybodys style of wheeling is completely different. I am just trying to learn here mostly because my original plan was to build D44's for my CJ7. My dad used to have a CJ7 with a 10 bolt front, and 12 bolt rear running 39x16 (I think 16) Boggers and a 258. He broke the front left U-joint one time, later in the years he went to 36's and not a chance in hell of breaking. He says he never even heard that front left break? Just noticed it not pulling and figured he put the tire at a weird angle and a little much pressure. I don't know the difference in strength from a 10 bolt to a Dana 44, but 39's were to big, as where 36's were nothing. So where is the happy medium? Crawling (not hammering the throttle) what can you run? I always figured this (all with chromos): LP30 35x13 max; M20 36x13" max; Dana 44 38x15 max; Dana 60 44" max. Seem right? And the only weak point in the Dana 44 is the joints right? Unlike the D60 where they are much bigger?

Also when I was talking weight, I know its un-sprung, but the general weight of the vehicle is much heavier (by what, 500 lbs or so?) which puts a much greater strain on the other componets such as my D20 t-case right?