So let me begin in the beginning.

Bought this truck http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/0408195127.jpg from my cousin for $600. It had that sh*tty brown looking color to it and it sure wasn't going to pick up no ladies. I had to get the brakes worked on it (I did the rear but couldn't get the stupid from hubs off so I had to send it to the mechanic).

Well I sent it to the first mechanic to work on the brakes and carburetor. He dragged ass around and finally started working on it in a week. Came to him to see what he did and they didn't start on the brakes. They started working on the carburetor a little but then they told me I needed this and that and that and this. So I had to get new sparkplugs..basically ignition stuff and a carburetor rebuilt kit (Edelbrock Performance Series 4 barrel). 3 weeks went on then 4 weeks. They finally got the truck running better than it was. I got tired of waiting around because it was nearly a month and they didn't even start working on the brakes. So I took it and paid him what I owed him.

Truck seemed to run a little sh*tty still. So I took it to another mechanic. Week passed and he said I just needed a new carburetor. He didn't want to start working on the truck. So I took it and finally took it to another mechanic after dragging the truck around town with help of a friend and a city cop.

This mechanic started working on my truck. They fixed the brakes just like that and got my carburetor fixed. He had to set the timing some more and put in a new distributor. This mechanic had a 78-79 Ford F150 2WD with a 460 in it. The carburetor I had in my truck still wanted to act up and the mechanic said it was flooding for some reason but it ran ok.Seems like when I get gas it wants to not crank up just like that or when I floor it sometimes, sounds like it shoots gas up out of the carb.
He said he put on his carburetor (Holley) and my truck ran like a charm with no problem. So the carburetor is a downfall of my truck.

Anyways....I did some work to the old mud wagon a little bit and bought this parts truck (for body parts). It didn't have no engine or tranny and I bought it for $400. It is a 78 Ford F150 2WD.
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/0818090923.jpg

I was wanting to put the cab off of this parts truck and put it on my 4wd frame but it would take to much work so I just took the fenders, hood, doors, and truck bed and got this

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/0822091333.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/0823091622.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/0823091703.jpg

Well I got the truck looking better but now I am wanting to do something else.

I want more HP and more pulling power. I know I am going to need new rims and tires because these rims had a torch cut the old lug nuts off of it (the previous owner of these rims did it from his truck).

The truck has a 351M with a C6 tranny. I heard bad stuff about 351Ms (boat anchors). But everyone has different opinions. I was thinking about putting a 460 in this thing. Then again I don't have alot of money either because I am working a minimum wage job (but I save). I have asked everyones output about this and I've gotten many answers such as: build up what you have, get that 460, get a 351W and build it up, or get a 427.

I also was thinking about getting a granny 3spd or granny 4sd tranny.

I know I hear people say I need to put Dana 60s on my truck because I want to run 38s (currently have 36s).


So my question is

What should I do engine wise? What is yer advice to me?

I would keep the motor you have now and build it up with bolt on parts. Take your time and look for deals, such as the wrecking yard or the internet for used parts. If money is tight I would avoid the 460 due to the gas mileage. Re gear your rig for the bigger tires and it will perform better.

run.

I agree, get the bolt on stuff for the engine you have, intake, headers, exhaust, maybe upgrade the ignition system. Regear the axles to handle the bigger tires and it'll feel like it has way more power.

Well what makes the 351M such a boat anchor?

How much HP can I make this "boat anchor" get? I've seen someone post on hear about them getting their 400M (basically 351M) a ton of HP. I'd imagine lots of money went there.
What gears should I put in?

I got $1068 today from College but I am going to use some for some other stuff (tractor, grandmother) and use a little for my truck.


Buddy of mine said he is going to give me a 3 spd with granny low for free. It's a Bord Warner 117mm trans. Are they good? He says it will bolt up to my Ford. He got it out of his 78 Chevy.

What gears should I put in?

Use a gear calculator to figure out your gears. If the stock tire was a 31's and you now have 36's and if the gears you have are 3.50's, you will need 4.10's. Use the calculator below.

http://www.rocky-road.com/calculator.html

Make a little more power with bolt ons, but that carb is already the best thing you coulda done to it. Keep the C6, not very efficient but reliable for the most part. I guess the next thing I would do is put in 4.10s and lock the rear end.

i have a truck with the 400m in it and it has plenty of power especialley with the 203/205 doubler that help alot. you defientley ned to look into the doubler situation - 4.10 gears- and headers. summit has the best price i found on headers i believe they was something like 90.00 plus shipping. the only bad thing is they are long tube headers that was the only thing that i could find they will hang a little below the frame but not real bad . hell i'm just running a 2 barrel carb factory and have plenty of power with the gears and doubler.

The C6 is ok Antique but with a granny low 3spd I would go a lower gear and pull better and plus it would be more better on gas wouldn't it?

What's this doublers? The transfer case I'd imagine?


Headers would be nice.
What would I need to do to go from a 351M to a 400M?

To bad you didnt live further north, you could sell that short bed for at least $1k up here and put that monet towards better mods. That 400M is junk IMO but if it is already there and runs good then why swap it? Put you money into better axles to start with. If you want better gearing in 4-lo swap that NP-205 out for a NP-208 or the B/W transfer, they have a much better low range and they are a strong transfer cases with less weight to boot. You can always go to a doubler when you can afford it. Just my thoughts anyway. I ran FE engines until i went to a mild 302, built my axles and ran the B/W transfer case and the truck wheeled great. I finally gave up on the truck because the frame was shot but i wheeled a long time on a cheap budget and i had one of the most reliable trucks in my club. Also dont be afraid to swap cabs, especially rust free trucks like you have. No joke here but i could swap those cabs out in less than 4hrs with hand tools. I would rather pull a cab than pull an engine. I put three cabs on my truck do to severe rust and roll overs, nothing to it.

To bad you didnt live further north, you could sell that short bed for at least $1k up here and put that monet towards better mods. That 400M is junk IMO but if it is already there and runs good then why swap it? Put you money into better axles to start with. If you want better gearing in 4-lo swap that NP-205 out for a NP-208 or the B/W transfer, they have a much better low range and they are a strong transfer cases with less weight to boot. You can always go to a doubler when you can afford it. Just my thoughts anyway. I ran FE engines until i went to a mild 302, built my axles and ran the B/W transfer case and the truck wheeled great. I finally gave up on the truck because the frame was shot but i wheeled a long time on a cheap budget and i had one of the most reliable trucks in my club.

Well tell me something, I've been wondering and searching (probably not searching good enough) but what is the HP of a 351M? Would you prefer a 351M or a 400M (though people say get rid of the 351M and put in a 302 but the 302 is only a 5.0L).

I've seen people telling everyone to switch from a Dana 44 to a Dana 60 for the front. Then I heard people saying switch your rear to to a Dana 60 (but a Dana 60 is a 30 or 31 spline and is weak) but Dana 44 and Dana 60 rears run nearly alike. So I should just get a Dana 60 for the front (but the problem with that is..lug pattern).

I might look into a different transfer case.

My advice would be to sit down with a pad and pencil and come up with a plan before you spend any more money. Decide what you want for an end result then come up with the best way to get there.

If you are planning on running 38" tires then dana 60 in the front would be a very good choice, lots of people will spend a lot of cash building a dana 44 when they would have been better starting with a 60. If you can't swing the cash for a 60 right now then maybe try to come up with the parts to swap it to eight lug, swap in a 60 or better yet a 70 or 14 bolt in the rear and then buy your new tires and wheels in the 8 lug variety, this way when you get the cash to buy a 60 for the front you don't need new wheels and tires again.

If your on a tight budget you can get decent power out of a 351m or 400, to go to any other motor you will have extra costs, plus you can buy bolt on parts now and use them then build a better motor later and reuse them.

460 isn't a real tough swap but expect to pay decent money for motor mounts, headers, oil pan(in many cases) sometimes front brackets etc, all this stuff adds up fast and takes away from your budget for the motor.

replace the timing chain and gears with a straight up ( zero degree ) timing set. that will fix the crappy factory cam timing and get you the cheapest improvement in power AND gas mileage.

Well I know one thing I sure do need for sure and that is a new carburetor.

Though my truck fires right up usually every morning (due to gas staying in the carburetor I think) but my carburetor makes my truck stall in the smallest hole sometimes. :shaking:

Thought I heard it today shooting fire up out of the carb when I cranked it up.:shaking:

I thank yall for the advice yall are giving me. It will help me come to my conclusion.

Is a Holley Truck Advenger 4 barrel good or should I get another different carburetor?

Brewchief said it best and i agree with 78bronco too. You need to figure out what your doing with this truck, i am assuming that you are playing in the mud? For mud though you should run the Ford HP D-60/14 bolt GM rear and in stock form it will hold up very well. I would keep the engine you have in the truck, put a new carb on it, replace the timing gears to bring back to spec and run it. As far as what carb again it depends on your type of wheeling. For mud an Edelbrock or basic Holley will do fine, for rock crawling the Holley Off Road Truck Avenger or a modified Quadrajet will do but neither will compare to TBI or MPI.You dont want to do what i did and dump $2k in your front axle and then change plans. My D-44 is about bullet proof but i know i am at its limits for what i am doing so to go bigger i now have to upgrade axles. For the wheeling i am doing i should have just started with Rockwells and saved alot of money in the end.

Well thanks for the advice. How much does they axles run for?


I hear so many bad things about Edelbrock and Holley (I know everyone has their own opinion about the subject) but I hear that Holley will pause usually unlike an Edelbrock (someone told me that when they were at the mud races that they could hear which truck had a Holley and an Edelbrock). I reviewed the Truck Advenger and some folks say it's a POS.

One thing I do know is that I got to get rid of mine (I think mines really for racing plus for some reason it acts up even though it is rebuilt)

the 351M, from what I remember was rated at 180HP + -. Dana 60 fronts can be had from about 500-1200+ depending on what sorta shape its in and what parts are on it already.
As far as carbs, I've ran 2 holleys, one being a 670cfm truck avenger, an edelbrock 800AVS that I added spring loaded needle and seats to, and now a 1095cfm demon 4500 series. I never had any issues with any of the carbs. However, if you are not willing, or do not know how to tune/modify and adjust these carbs properly, find someone who does or go get fuel injection. I think its pretty silly to bash a certain carb when the owner can't even do the proper steps to get it running right, I see it all the time at the mud races. There is no shame in having someone else tune the carb for you, thats how I had to learn as well.

P.S. stay with the C6, I swapped to a C6 from a 4 speed, no problems after 3 years of absolute brutal abuse. That three speed standard trans is ancient. If you're gonna swap in a standard, get a T-18 or NP435 4 speed with granny 1st gear.

My advice-

Keep the engine in it until you graduate and get a better job and stuff. You should not be paying others to fix this stuff right now, do your own work for now and not only learn a bunch of stuff, but I'll tell you that $600 can buy a lot of cool stuff, but doesn't give you a whole lot if it includes paying someone else to do the work.

You have an excellent foundation here, but the trick at this stage is to use it to learn about what you want to do with it when you can afford to do it properly.

The gas mileage difference between the 460 and the 351M is so small, it's not even worth arguing. There's more parts available for the 460 than there is for the 351M. They can be built, but it'll be more expensive than building a mild 460 because of the amount of parts available. But stick with little things first. Getting it running and reliable should be the first thing on your list. Haynes and Chilton manuals can be your best friend, as well as the guys here. We know our shit. Don't be afraid to ask questions, especially if it involves taking the truck somewhere to get it worked on. Many older mechanics enjoy teaching the younger generation. Besides...tinkering and tuning carbs is becoming a lost art.

Good job on the rear brakes!


And I still hate Edelbrock/Weber carbs.

My truck does run good. It's just when I go through mud sometimes. My truck stalls. It's the carb.
I would love to upgrade to the 460.

I wonder if I could get 400+ Hp out of the 351M though?

This Mexican mechanic who works on my truck has a 78-79 Ford F150 Longbed with the 460 in it.

He said he will sell me the whole truck for $1500

My truck does run good. It's just when I go through mud sometimes. My truck stalls. It's the carb.
I would love to upgrade to the 460.

I wonder if I could get 400+ Hp out of the 351M though?

This Mexican mechanic who works on my truck has a 78-79 Ford F150 Longbed with the 460 in it.

He said he will sell me the whole truck for $1500

I used to not think much of the 351M/400 motors, but after taking a second look they aren't that bad. The heads on these motors are amazing, 2.05/1.65 canted valves with huge ports. This is part of the problem with the 351M, way too much head for the motor. On the 351 Cleveland that spins a little higher they work great, but not the M. You can stroke it to a 400 with a 400 crank and pistons. Cleveland pistons (which are numerous) can be run in a 400 if you bush and full-float the piston pins (flat tops will get your CR up). The stock heads are much better suited to a 400" motor than a 351. There are tons of cams for the 351m/400 (they use Cleveland cams) and can be set up for full-roller valvetrain. There is tons of power potential in these motors if someone who really knows what they are doing builds them.

With that being said, I swapped in a 351w in my '79 Ford for the weight savings and parts availability over the M-motor. All I needed was 302 motor mounts, a 302 bell-housing and a few custom accessory brackets. My 351w is mildly built and makes around 300hp/400lb-ft, plenty for the 36" tires I'm running. Here's my build: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460148

run.

I've still don't understand this post man.

I've looked at it and looked at it and wonder what's going on?:laughing:

I used to not think much of the 351M/400 motors, but after taking a second look they aren't that bad. The heads on these motors are amazing, 2.05/1.65 canted valves with huge ports. This is part of the problem with the 351M, way too much head for the motor. On the 351 Cleveland that spins a little higher they work great, but not the M. You can stroke it to a 400 with a 400 crank and pistons. Cleveland pistons (which are numerous) can be run in a 400 if you bush and full-float the piston pins (flat tops will get your CR up). The stock heads are much better suited to a 400" motor than a 351. There are tons of cams for the 351m/400 (they use Cleveland cams) and can be set up for full-roller valvetrain. There is tons of power potential in these motors if someone who really knows what they are doing builds them.

With that being said, I swapped in a 351w in my '79 Ford for the weight savings and parts availability over the M-motor. All I needed was 302 motor mounts, a 302 bell-housing and a few custom accessory brackets. My 351w is mildly built and makes around 300hp/400lb-ft, plenty for the 36" tires I'm running. Here's my build: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=460148

I see that you cut yer frame right in half. Thought that would hurt a frame and make it all weak and more liable to bending if wrecked? But the trucks looking good though.

Well I am just stuck on what to do. Everyone is saying get the 460 while others say keep the 351M. I know in the end, it is up to me about what I should do. But by the looks of it, I see that the 351M would be aggervating due to parts avaliability.

Someone said 460 and 351M gets same gas milage.
But I plan to take out the C6 auto tranny and put in a 4 speed sometime so that would help the gas out a little.

So I need a final decision...460 or 351M or another engine? I would like at least 450HP
If I can gain 400 HP with the 351M. I will keep it. If not, out it goes on Criagslist.
This money is burning a hole in my pocket.

I see that you cut yer frame right in half. Thought that would hurt a frame and make it all weak and more liable to bending if wrecked? But the trucks looking good though.

Well I am just stuck on what to do. Everyone is saying get the 460 while others say keep the 351M. I know in the end, it is up to me about what I should do. But by the looks of it, I see that the 351M would be aggervating due to parts avaliability.

Someone said 460 and 351M gets same gas milage.
But I plan to take out the C6 auto tranny and put in a 4 speed sometime so that would help the gas out a little.

So I need a final decision...460 or 351M or another engine? I would like at least 450HP
If I can gain 400 HP with the 351M. I will keep it. If not, out it goes on Criagslist.
This money is burning a hole in my pocket.

400+ HP will be much cheaper to get out of a 460 than a 351m.

400+ HP will be much cheaper to get out of a 460 than a 351m.

That's what I was figuring.

Thanks.

I wouldnt bother swapping the tranny out for gas milage, waste of time there as that truck with the stick is still going to suck gas. The only benefit from the swap is the lower 1st gear for crawling. Now the down side to the stick tranny is that the driveline will receive far more power and torque and you will be breaking axle/u-joints much easier. I ran a stick for years but i prefer the slushbox for its "cushion" to the drivetrain, the ability to ease onto an obsticle and less no shifting if in the mud.

What do you need so much power for? I think with some bolt ons and a strong running and properly tuned 351, strong axles with the right gears, and a good transfer case you'd have all the power you need. What is the truck going to be primarily used for? Like everyone else said, that will determine what you should do with it. For example, if its being used just for mud, you don't need as strong of axles as you would for say rock crawling. You also wouldnt benefit from a doubler as much as you would on the rocks. In the mud your wheels are constantly spinning which isn't hard on axles, its when you've got big tires and grab traction that you're most likely to break shit, like with rock crawling.

BTW, I like what you've done with the truck so far, it looks MUCH better than it did!

Appreciate it.

Yes, a friend of mine says I don't really need the 460 cause of my driveline will break easier but if I upgraded to a Dana 60 and 14 bolt GM rear I think it would be fine.


I am wanting to use this truck for pulling, bogging every now and then, but then drive it around town but would like to have some nice HP. I have a 4 banger Ford Ranger I use for long long distance travel though.

I guess I could keep the ole 351M but get lower gearing.

Shoot, my brothers 84 Ford F150 4X4 has a granny low 3 spd, 300 straight six, and sits on 38's. Someone used it mainly for bogging. Gearing is real low. I may post pictures of it afterwhile.

But like I said I would use the truck for bogging every now and then (but not full time), drive it to work or wheel it around town and possibly pull my tractor with it or other things.
I would just like to have something that will surprise people and me. :D

I just got an email from a guy who emailed me about selling a 460 for $400. He said he will sell it to me for $400 and then he will give me a 351M for free when purchasing the 460. He said his cousin took it out of his (cousin) truck awhile back and it was running when it was in the truck. He said its been sitting in his shop for 3 months.
He also said he has the frame mounts too.


Think I should do this?

Got some pictures of it. Looks like it is an Edelbrock Performance 460:

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/IMG00185-20090912-2253.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/460.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/IMG00181-20090912-2252.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/IMG00183-20090912-2252.jpg

and the brackets (wonder if they will work?)

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h62/bmxer00002003/IMG00187-20090912-2254.jpg



Think this will be a good 460?

The mount stands are for an 80+ frame, and the acessory bracketry on the engine spells 83-87 F-truck, so, it's probably an 8.0:1 compression smogger; nothing too special, but it is still a 460.

The mount stands are for an 80+ frame, and the acessory bracketry on the engine spells 83-87 F-truck, so, it's probably an 8.0:1 compression smogger; nothing too special, but it is still a 460.

Think it will be better than the 351M?

I personally think its worth it IF it is a good runner. If the casting of the block is a D9 its a good base for a mild stroker engine. I would go with the 460 over the 351/400m any day of the week. There is just flat out more power to be had in the 385 series engines then the 335's.

Bone stock, that 460 is around the 240 horse mark, vs, the 140 or so of that 351M, tq is 380 vs 260 or thereabouts...
Big gains to be had even if it's stock vs stock.

Well it's all the way in middle Florida. Lol. I hope it is a good engine. Don't want to go all the way down there and get a lemon. I'd be POed.

Plus he is giving me a free 351....I could turn around and sell that.

run.
I've still don't understand this post man.

I've looked at it and looked at it and wonder what's going on?:laughing:
Two explanations I can think of:

Look at his sig, He drives a chebbie, so you can safely disregard the post

Either that or he means to get out and wheel your truck, and see what breaks, then you'll know what needs to be upgraded.:grinpimp:

He also said he has the frame mounts too.


If you do decide to go 460 you do not need to change the frame towers. The stock 351M/400 towers will work with 429/460 swap motor mounts. I have heard of guys using 390 motor mounts but don't know for sure what year to get to use the stock towers.

If you do decide to go 460 you do not need to change the frame towers. The stock 351M/400 towers will work with 429/460 swap motor mounts. I have heard of guys using 390 motor mounts but don't know for sure what year to get to use the stock towers.

You use 390 car mounts. you have to turn them sideways and cut a small corner off. way cheaper than the "swap" mounts and work great.

i'm fairly certain chevy never used a borg warner transmission of any kind (at least in recent trucks), so i'd steer clear of it if its out of a chevy. not to mention if it is bolted to a chevy, it will not bolt to your ford motor.

if you really want a stick, just find a new process or borg warner tranny from another ford. they shouldn't be too hard to find.