We added ram assist to Yankee Bob's Sammy axle (fully trussed). Now that the ram is the turning force, the box is really just a control valve. There is no need for a panhard bar in the front now. Before, if you turned without a panhard, the frame/body just moved around. Now with ram, no such movement, just the tires turning in the direction desired.

Anyone notice the same? $199 for the ram kit is easier than panharding.

what kind of suspension are you running?

I'm sure this works in the driveway. What about on the trail, or on a side hill?

I assume you're talking about a 3-link w/o a PB.

Pics please:D

The ram can eliminate a Tie Rod, but has no connections to the frame of the vehicle, so how can it do anything to locate an axle?

Nope, the suspension is "ol' skool". 5.5" SPOA pads with RUF/CJ and M/Ls. Plenty of slop in that suspension set-up that P/S alone moves the body.

Nope, this is both in the rocks and on the pavement. I'm not speaking of anything else othere than the turning of the wheel results in turning of the tires only.

We think its because the force is applied from the axle to the knuckle, not the frame to the knuckle. When the force is all contained on the axle itself, there seems little reason to move the suspension play around.

This make sense?

The ram can eliminate a Tie Rod, but has no connections to the frame of the vehicle, so how can it do anything to locate an axle?

Leaf set-up.

boys he's talking about leaf springs....

i agree Tim once you put a ram no need for a panhard.

That might be one of the most common-sense observations ever made.

I've never owned a rig with leaf springs that had a panhard bar, no matter what steering system i was using

Leafs on tall shackles especially with deep arch springs will still need a panhard otherwise not needed.

I ran yj springs (flat springs) for years on my green "limo zuk" and loved the rig so much I'd drive it on the street every chance I had. put a panhard on there and it was like it had race car handling. didn't hinder it in the rocks or trails so I left the panhard on at all times.

Any length shackle will definately give you side to side flex, the longer they are the greater the side flex is. unless you are running steel bushings.

i'm running both, a ram assist, panhard bar, and leaf springs. even with leaves, the axle still can use help. if my wheels are in a rock rut, and i turn out of it, i know the springs are not side-loading very much and can move freely. the panhard takes most of the load, saving my bushings and shackles from excessive forces and wear. plus, the thing handles like a racecar in the mall parking lot.

:Dits just the inner import in them

That might be one of the most common-sense observations ever made.

I've never owned a rig with leaf springs that had a panhard bar, no matter what steering system i was using

my old commando w/46" front springs had a factory panhard bar

rigs with rear mounted shackles generally don't need the panhard, rigs like the samurai with shackles up front may require one after lifted. i hear it becomes an issue with longer springs.

most factory leaf setups use a sway bar, which does help to locate the axle. but it only makes sense that a ram will take the place of a panhard because the steering forces are not being generated from the frame, but rather from the axle housing.
if a ram doesnt do this, it means the ram isnt doing the work, the box is doing the majority of the work and the ram is just there for the ride

most factory leaf setups use a sway bar, which does help to locate the axle. but it only makes sense that a ram will take the place of a panhard because the steering forces are not being generated from the frame, but rather from the axle housing.
if a ram doesnt do this, it means the ram isnt doing the work, the box is doing the majority of the work and the ram is just there for the ride

uh the "sway bar" does not help to locate the axle :flipoff2:

as far as the ram replacing the panhard bar; it makes the steering more effective by taking the forces like you said and putting them on the axle so you dont loose turning radius by the steering box just pushing the whole axle over and not just the steering parts like is was supposed to do.
You still should run a panhard bar if your worried about handleing on the street.

on the street i noticed this, but when it gets really twisted up and the axle moves sideways of the body, like when its being pushed into a ledge, i wish i had a panard.

Becuase the axle is moved sideways and the draglink is acting as a limiting rod, not letting the ram do its job all the way.....
then i relized my front suspension was WAY to loose and redid a bunch of stuff haha

Hmmm...

In the rocks, while very twisted, Bob moved a 30"ish rock with the tire, and yet no body movement. It was while noticing this that the whole "do we really need to re-fab the panhard?" thought came up.

Oh, forgot to add, this is with hi-steer. We removed the old panhard as the steering geometery changed when we added the hi-steer, making the existing panhard incorrect for the new set up. While testing it, the rock movement thingy happened, which got us thinking. So far, we haven't had an issue with body movement like we did with the old set up (toy IFS P/S and a ziggy-zaggy drag link)

if you really 'needed' a panhard to begin with to keep the axle located, you still need it. as said before, lifted arched springs with long shackles sort of need it.
if you only put it on for the sake of not pushing the body sideways because of steering, then you may just have eliminated the need for it in that case.

Its because the steering isnt pushing of the frame anymore.....I would still run the panhard if you drive it down the street........cut it out and make it 4 link.....my 2cents

no arched springs here. All flat. M/Ls have slop by design.

Panhard was installed, not for road manners, but to solve the P/S pushing things around.

No, this don't see the road anymore, except from trailhead to camp on occasion.

4-link is for the buggy. This is mostly for trail ride crawls, when you want to be warm and dry during bad weather.

[QUOTE=kabob;10309384]uh the "sway bar" does not help to locate the axle :flipoff2:

take a look at an older chev truck/blazer with leaves up front, they do not have sway bar end links, the sway bar bolts diretly to the spring plates, defenetly helping to locate the axle, no a samurai one will not do a thing to help keep the axle centered under the vehicle:flipoff2::shaking:

panhard bars dp not come from the factory on any leaf sprung vehicle i have ever seen, so not sure why everyone seems to think they are necessary for a lifted truck used on the street. i ran 38's on mine before i put the ram on and it drives better than any stock tj i have ever drivin ( guess thats not saying much though)
the drag link angle can cause the frame to move around a lotif it is setup too steep.
build your steering correctlyand dont use the panhard as a bandaid fix, its not neccessary

[QUOTE=kabob;10309384]uh the "sway bar" does not help to locate the axle :flipoff2:

take a look at an older chev truck/blazer with leaves up front, they do not have sway bar end links, the sway bar bolts diretly to the spring plates, defenetly helping to locate the axle:flipoff2::shaking:

panhard bars dp not come from the factory on any leaf sprung vehicle i have ever seen, so not sure why everyone seems to think they are necessary for a lifted truck used on the street.
build your steering correctlyand dont use the panhard as a bandaid fix, its not neccessary

Sway bar bushings on the frame do not control, and are not designed to control side to side movement, no matter how the bar is attached at the axle.

As for factory panhard bars, Jeep YJs came with them, and my dads 86 F350 has one on the front (Dana 60 with shackles up front) and is 100% factory stock.
Travis..

[QUOTE=purplezuk;10322299]

Sway bar bushings on the frame do not control, and are not designed to control side to side movement, no matter how the bar is attached at the axle.

As for factory panhard bars, Jeep YJs came with them, and my dads 86 F350 has one on the front (Dana 60 with shackles up front) and is 100% factory stock.
Travis..

Thanks for handling my lite work :grinpimp:

build your steering correctlyand dont use the panhard as a bandaid fix, its not neccessary

that's a bunch of horse shit. a panhard bar is part of building steering correctly.

not when you have leaf springs to locate the axle.



alot of stock leaf vehicles have panhard bars.

a ram does not replace or eliminate a pahard bar, it relives one of the reasons you should have one not all of them.

panhard bars dp not come from the factory on any leaf sprung vehicle i have ever seen,

88'-89'-90' leaf sprung Grand Waggys almost all have a "factory" panhard bar on them...check it out sometime.

yj' too

Its not just drag link angle that makes it necessary. I've got hi-steer, and the drag link is viturually the same as stock. Even so, the P/S moves the body around, and it mostly do to all the slop in the M/L suspension.

Wow, I didn't think this thread would cause this much debate.:homer:

i've got hi-steer as well, so the panhard is not a fix for bump-steer. the behavior of my samurai and after building a panhard into the system is just dreamy. i steer with one finger (not the middle one), and the response is amazing. offroad driving, regardless of steering setup, fights the front axle from the frame. my leaf springs are happy to locate the axle front-to-rear and up-down, which are the planes that the spring eyes are designed to work against. side-side is a different story. c'mon, a few feet of 1-1/4 dom, some weld-in bungs, and a pair of 3/4" rod ends from qs components cost less than a replacement pair of headlights. what's the big deal? is upgrading axles a band-aid for big tires?

Wow, I didn't think this thread would cause this much debate.:homer:

If you had labeled the thread "Did anyone ever notice that not having your axle and frame connected through the steering linkage stops the frame and axle from moving in an opposing fashion when you turn the wheel?" If you had said that, there would only be people saying "duh":flipoff2:
Travis..

well i guess i just done have a loose enough front end to merrit putting a panhard on. and you would need a sloppy set of shackles and bushings to even allow full droop with a panhard. a panhard wont stop articulation but it will limit.
and because jeep did it, it should make you realize its not right, you couldnt make me keep one of them in my driveway.
never seen a highway truck with a panhard on the steer axle, and they have greater side forces than any other vehicle on the road. just leafs and bushings. and the panhard bars on the rear diffs are because they are not using full leafs with spring eyes at both ends

well i guess i just done have a loose enough front end to merrit putting a panhard on. and you would need a sloppy set of shackles and bushings to even allow full droop with a panhard. a panhard wont stop articulation but it will limit.
and because jeep did it, it should make you realize its not right, you couldnt make me keep one of them in my driveway.
never seen a highway truck with a panhard on the steer axle, and they have greater side forces than any other vehicle on the road. just leafs and bushings. and the panhard bars on the rear diffs are because they are not using full leafs with spring eyes at both ends

Stock leaf sprung superduty's have a panhard bar (maybe they suck to). I think a panhard is a good idea if its spring over.

alright, ending the thread now....

the steering ram has nothing to do with locating the axle from typical sideloads during off-camber situations. The only thing full hydro does is take away the fact that your steering box can shift the frame when the steering is bound up. If you want to stop your body from shifting while offcamber, you still need a trackbar. The only thing a ram does is take away the fact that the stock steering box will move the body when under loads (ie when the tires are stuck in position)

Therefor: (for the mentally impaired) If your suspension is loose enough that it shifts when you get off camber, you still need a track-bar. If your suspension is tight enough that it stays put when you get offcamber and only shifts when you add the force of steering into the equation, you won't need a track bar when using full hydro.....


man that was hard to type while drunk on someone elses laptop............ :flipoff2:

well i guess i just done have a loose enough front end to merrit putting a panhard on. and you would need a sloppy set of shackles and bushings to even allow full droop with a panhard. a panhard wont stop articulation but it will limit.
and because jeep did it, it should make you realize its not right, you couldnt make me keep one of them in my driveway.
never seen a highway truck with a panhard on the steer axle, and they have greater side forces than any other vehicle on the road. just leafs and bushings. and the panhard bars on the rear diffs are because they are not using full leafs with spring eyes at both ends

what are you? New ?!?! come on man, have you ever looked under a straight axle production vehicle in the past forever !?!?! :shaking::flipoff2:

I really dont like to flame but dam !!!!!

Stock leaf sprung superduty's have a panhard bar (maybe they suck to)

Umm, did you have to ask if a Ford sucks? :laughing:

If you had labeled the thread "Did anyone ever notice that not having your axle and frame connected through the steering linkage stops the frame and axle from moving in an opposing fashion when you turn the wheel?" If you had said that, there would only be people saying "duh":flipoff2:
Travis..

Well Travis, I tried. But the tread title doesn't allow for that many characters.:homer: