Tossing this out.
I'm considering going all out (diesel conversion along with the obvious drivetrain upgrades) to build my '97 for long haul, expedition trip type stuff.

Want to be able to drive to Baja, do Baja, and drive back, stopping in Moab to run Poison Spider on the way home. All without fuel $ breaking the bank.



I also need to buy a tow rig for the buggy.

These two things started me wondering...

Is it possible to use a well built diesel D1 as a tow rig for a reasonably lightweight rig (2800# buggy + trailer)?
And by "possible" I mean can it be done well

Is the chassis up to it?
Trans and TC?
Trailer brakes and hydroboost should take care of that obvious D1 deficiency.
Other considerations?

If so, the next question is what engine would you recommend?
Read in Exp Journal about the Hansons loving their International 3.0 for the Land Cruiser (lots of power, 28mpg).
Is this an option?
Others?
In fact, is there a diesel with enough cojones to pull a rig though the mountains that will fit in a D1?

I think we established not so long ago that Land Rovers in general cannot be used for towing, you have to use a Duramax.

See here (http://http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=794321&highlight=)

The Cummins I4 would be a better option then the Int 3.0 for a US based vehicle wouldn't it?
I am thinking parts and stuff.

I think we established not so long ago that Land Rovers in general cannot be used for towing, you have to use a Duramax.

See here (http://http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=794321&highlight=)Please educate me about the reasons.

I think we established not so long ago that Land Rovers in general cannot be used for towing, you have to use a Duramax.

See here (http://http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=794321&highlight=)

Rovers with stock engine and brakes you mean. if you could figure out how to stuff a 7.3PSD and a 14b into a D1 you would be all set.

:D

Just read that thread.
The main issues were HP and mileage, both would be addressed by the engine upgrade.

The Cummins I4 would be a better option then the Int 3.0 for a US based vehicle wouldn't it?
I am thinking parts and stuff.

Did you see this thread about the DII with the $?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=820243

Contact the seller and try and determine the level of effort required and ask if he towed.

Obviously, doing a Disco diesel conversion, while not being easy or commonplace, is certainly not that big an issue.

From what I'm reading it really comes down to this question:is there a diesel with enough cojones to pull a rig though the mountains that will fit in a D1?

I remember reading another thread about using the older GM diesel.
Available, cheap, and good mileage.
While it was never up to 1 ton truck duty, it certainly worked OK for years and should be up to the somewhat light weight work I'm considering.

More ideas/opinions please.

I am sure it can be done. The legal aspect is the only issue I would be concerned about. I would bet the Disco's GAWR for the rear axle is not that hot. If you towed 5000 lbs plus some gear you would probably max out. The DOT or your insurance agency probably does not care about GCVWR excesses but overloading an axle could be an issue. I don't know the axle weight rating so take this with a grain of salt.

Despite it's inherent POSness my 6BT 109 ran out to Moab on 37 BFG ATs and got a steady 20-21 mpg across the US at 55-65 mph. It has the aerodynamics of a bus and other than mild tune stuff (bumped timing, 4 inch exhaust, intercooler and more fuel) it's a pretty mild 6BT, and I had an auto with a non-lockup TC. With a 5 speed I am sure I can get into the 25 mpg range and with a better OD and smaller tires you could definitely get even better. I am striving to build a non-POS version 2 that gets 30 (imp) MPG on 38 Toyos.

I think axle-wise, a Sals rear would work out great, you'd get the larger ring gear and heat dissipation of the Dana 60 gearset, and you could upgrade the axles. Keith offers spindles that allow 35 spline, I would bet the bearings are bigger and beefier than the stock units. Brakes could be easily upgraded to vented fronts and something better in the rear (run front vented rotors on the back and custom caliper mounts). The LT230 would hold together well. NV4500 coupled to an Isuzu 4BD1T, 4BT, 1HZ, 1HDT, etc. Hell I would probably try and shoehorn in a 1st gen CTD if I could, I bet it would fit with some lift and massaging of the firewall and it's so much smoother than the 4 cyl diesels. Even a hopped up 6AT would rock the casbah.

The only possible problem I would see is the relatively short wheelbase. I was at about 113" which was pretty good, and a Disco should still be long enough to do OK.

You dudes did look cool passing me on the run into Denver with the buddy in the dumptruck and the Disco on the trailer :D

You dudes did look cool passing me on the run into Denver with the buggy in the dumptruck and the Disco on the trailer :D:D Was that you in the Series?
What wasn't cool was the 4mpg that 8.1 gas engine got me.
Over $2500 in gas for the week :eek:
Had to call my secretary from Moab to have her call Phillips to get the credit limit on the gas card lifted to get home. :D

That's actually a big part of this thread and what I'm trying to avoid.
There are a lot of times where I'd like to have both vehicles along.
This year's Natl Rally is a perfect example.
Carnage is really the only buggy trail around Leadville. I'd have loved to have the Disco along to do other stuff.

I, obviously, could go the same route; buying a one ton diesel and a two car trailer.
That's a lot of cost that could go into modifying the D1 (which, again, I'd like to do anyway)

Ive towed with it all because I dont care.. I just do it..

First when my d1 on 35s and was my daily driver, i used to tow my bro in laws eclipse every other week when he moved..

Then I bought a 96 chev 1/2 ton with the vortec 350, that was a great truck, the only down side was when i towed my full bodied disco, I only got around 6-7 MPG.

after that I had my 02 duramax, by far teh best.. that guy I got around 14-16 towing depending on hills and load....

now I have a 05 300 HP lr3 that im gonnna use for long trips.. short stuff im just gonna drive the rig.. :flipoff2:

Now what I did have for a while was a 4.6 d1 and let me tell you, with little tires, trailer brakes, and gears I bet that would tow your buggy fine.. the buggy doesnt wiegh much ,and with a light trailer it would pull it all day long.. the 4.6 make a amazing difference in the discos....

Now what I did have for a while was a 4.6 d1 and let me tell you, with little tires, trailer brakes, and gears I bet that would tow your buggy fine.. the buggy doesnt wiegh much ,and with a light trailer it would pull it all day long.. the 4.6 make a amazing difference in the discos....But it puts me back to 12-14mpg without trailer.

I have to second the 4.6 even though you were asking about a diesel. My 110 with a 4.6 tows my flatbed trailer and landscape tractor/loader really well.

I have a 2004 dodge 2500 diesel that I got off Ebay for $19,000 Been a great truck and it had 90,000 on the clock when I got it. 150,000 now. I am sure you could find something similar for even less. I average 19 MPG while towing and I am not doing 55-65 I do have the Edge performer that helps the MPG's. Sounds like a lot of work just to end up with a vehicle with not much resale value.

It's about the fever, D1's have minimal resale value anyway.. Why not have fun with it?

Listen to J.L.

zuzu 4bd1t and a nv4500 wiff a Sals in the back.. KEEP the 3.54 gears..

I have a 2004 dodge 2500 diesel that I got off Ebay for $19,000 Been a great truck and it had 90,000 on the clock when I got it. 150,000 now. I am sure you could find something similar for even less. I average 19 MPG while towing and I am not doing 55-65 I do have the Edge performer that helps the MPG's. Sounds like a lot of work just to end up with a vehicle with not much resale value.Obviously, IF this works; for HALF the price you spent I get:

-25 mpg out my Disco
-A bulletproof drivetrain for towing or wheeling.
-No need to tow two vehicles, hence no two vehicle trailer
-No need to plate and insure another truck.

So yea, it's definitely worth seeing if this can be a feasible option.

Oh, and resale value?
Please, I own a D1, there IS no resale value. :D

Obviously, IF this works; for HALF the price you spent I get:

-25 mpg out my Disco
-A bulletproof drivetrain for towing or wheeling.
-No need to tow two vehicles, hence no two vehicle trailer
-No need to plate and insure another truck.

So yea, it's definitely worth seeing if this can be a feasible option.

Oh, and resale value?
Please, I own a D1, there IS no resale value. :D

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/1234525508_ben_stiller_-_do_it.gif

http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs175.snc1/6569_1169016897939_1003440441_30547732_6092875_n.j pg :flipoff2:

I remember reading another thread about using the older GM diesel.
Available, cheap, and good mileage.
While it was never up to 1 ton truck duty, it certainly worked OK for years and should be up to the somewhat light weight work I'm considering.

More ideas/opinions please.

Fitting the 6.5td into the disco would be easier then it was in the Series.

The engine tows fine in my burb. I have never tried towing with the series.
When driving with out a trailer behind you 20-25mpg would be obtainable. 14-15 towing possible

I used to be really into building everything. I would piece together just about anything. It usally cost me a little more but the enjoyment and the satisfaction of building it myself was well worth it. Since the birth of my son who is now 18 months and my wife going back to work I just cant seem to find time for too many projects. That being said buying a complete working unit was the best option for me. I actually sold my Jeep which I had built from the ground up and not quite finished to purchase my ready to wheel Disco. I am slowly making it my own and already feels like its mine. The upgrades I have planned will seal it. Good luck on your project.

You are definetly gonna need a Salisbury in the rear!

my 93 LWB hauled a 7000+ jeep J30 on a 22' heavy flatbed from Seattle area to Coeur d'Alene with not significan effort. it was stock, the 4.2 pulled like mad for a little motor. I wold think a good tranny and strang rear would be the keys to the who thing. Otherwise just buy a one ton.

I commend the efforts but why not buy something that could one day tow a toy hauler or something that your buggy can fit inside of?

I commend the efforts but why not buy something that could one day tow a toy hauler or something that your buggy can fit inside of?

Because he wants to wheel the Disco as well (on the same trips) and not have to tow two trucks.

Because he wants to wheel the Disco as well (on the same trips) and not have to tow two trucks.Thanks you.

Keep in mind, a good portion of the drivetrain mods needed for this I want to do anyway, just to make the D1 more capable and reliable.

Being able to use it for towing is icing.

...now if we could just add some wheelbase to that D1......

Roxstar, you're thinking too hard :) ...and I'm pretty sure there's a Disco with a Salisbury lurking somewhere near Longmont.

Where's that blasted :sombrero: icon ?????

Ok well have fun. Post lots of pics.

Roxstar, you're thinking too hard :) ...and I'm pretty sure there's a Disco with a Salisbury lurking somewhere near Longmont.

Where's that blasted :sombrero: icon ?????

I think I think I have seen that disco, though the Red 110 is probably getting more use.

...now if we could just add some wheelbase to that D1......

Roxstar, you're thinking too hard :) ...and I'm pretty sure there's a Disco with a Salisbury lurking somewhere near Longmont. Yea, but I also want a dies...

Hmmmm

Yea, but I also want a dies...

Hmmmm

Aaahhh, the noodling contines :smokin:


...oh, crap, I can't even spell "Roxtar" today...time to go home...

Yea, but I also want a dies...

Hmmmm

How much work are you looking at?

You can find a running 6.5td solid axle front for a couple grand.
Yank the entire drive line.
Narrow the axle tubes.
The 8 bolt GM wheel pattern is rover dia. I have seen some folks basically redrill and change it to a 5 bolt.
So you can run 3/4 ton axles, better brakes, etc, with the rover wheels.
The IP can be swapped for the earlier mechanical one and you eliminate all the computer crap. basic one wire needed for the fuel solinoid.

You are definetly gonna need a Salisbury in the rear!

If you're towing with an unlocked centre diff, then the front is taking exactly the same torque as the rear.
Upgrading just the rear is a little pointless IMO.

I feel all warm and fuzzy knowing I have a vehicle in my garage (albeit in bits) that you guys are trying to build.:grinpimp:
RRC with Isuzu 4BD1T, Isuzu 5 speed overdrive box, 1.003:1 LT230, big front calipers and vented rotors.

When Bush65 chimes in I'll stop being soo smug. Until then.:smokin:

If you're towing with an unlocked centre diff, then the front is taking exactly the same torque as the rear.
Upgrading just the rear is a little pointless IMO.

I feel all warm and fuzzy knowing I have a vehicle in my garage (albeit in bits) that you guys are trying to build.:grinpimp:
RRC with Isuzu 4BD1T, Isuzu 5 speed overdrive box, 1.003:1 LT230, big front calipers and vented rotors.

When Bush65 chimes in I'll stop being soo smug. Until then.:smokin:

its more about the extra weight being placed on the rear axle than the torque applied to the wheels.

That's why you stuff big stubs and 35 spline axles on that Sali...

its more about the extra weight being placed on the rear axle than the torque applied to the wheels.

If you put enough weight on to endanger the stock axle casing, then rear axle strength is going to be the least of your worries.:homer:

How much work are you looking at?

You can find a running 6.5td solid axle front for a couple grand.
Yank the entire drive line.
Narrow the axle tubes.
The 8 bolt GM wheel pattern is rover dia. I have seen some folks basically redrill and change it to a 5 bolt.
So you can run 3/4 ton axles, better brakes, etc, with the rover wheels.
The IP can be swapped for the earlier mechanical one and you eliminate all the computer crap. basic one wire needed for the fuel solinoid.Now that's some good info.
Redrilling the wheel pattern would be easy enough.
Or not.
Maybe also use rear 14 bolt, leaving the GM pattern (far more wheel options)

Pretty sure the 14 bolt/D60 shafts can be resplined if budget gets tight.

It's good to have a plan B in case the family from Longmont show up home early. :D

You know for the price of the parts, the time involved, you could be better off at buying a used diesel pickup, which are going for dirt cheap!

A good Ford diesel will give you what you want without the hassles and maybe for a few bucks less.

I went that route a few years back with an 88 Rangie, going with a 6.5 upgraded drivetrain, etc. Final analysis was it the parts where more expensive than if I bought a pickup for my towing needs.

Do what you wish its your bank roll!

I mentioned something like this earlier. He wants to wrench and create. I get it.

If you flat tow your buggy like a sandrail and run 33" tires on the D1 a 300tdi would do the work. You need to disconnect the driveshafts at the diffs on the buggy in my experience as well. Probably tie down the suspension also.
Real world esperience talking here. Or I can find you a CTD truck at reasonable cost if you want to tow them both out there.

Or build one of the big gay D's on 40's that you like to brag up around here. You can get your nosebleed in your roof rack tent instead of the mountains. No need to travel West :flipoff2:

...now if we could just add some wheelbase to that D1......

Exactly... The mods you listed in your OP, plus a 145" wheelbase will make it into a good tow rig. 100" wheelbase and lots of torque, it still won't be a good tow rig. Yeah, it will pull the trailer up the hill but handling won't be up to par.

Don't forget to put new seats on the list. A long drive in a Disco with the stock seats will cripple you (me anyway).

I want to wheel and drag trucks around, not spend what little time I have building a tow rig!

I think one's money would be much better spent on a big truck and bigger trailer. There have been several self-contained two-vehicle haulers for sale locally in the $10K range. There are even more one-ton trucks available in this area, due to the demise of the tavel-trailer industry. It seems as though many of the folks who bought trucks to haul Katrina homes are now dumping their trucks for nothing!

Thanks for all the advice.
Everyone, as for the money best spent part; try to remember the first couple lines of the OP:Tossing this out.
I'm considering going all out (diesel conversion along with the obvious drivetrain upgrades) to build my '97 for long haul, expedition trip type stuff.

Want to be able to drive to Baja, do Baja, and drive back, stopping in Moab to run Poison Spider on the way home. All without fuel $ breaking the bank.



I also need to buy a tow rig for the buggy.

These two things started me wondering...The point is that I'd like to do the diesel conversion and stronger driveline anyway.
Consider that $ already spent.

The point of the thread was can this same vehicle be used as a decent tow rig for a 5000# load, saving me the additional expense of buying a large dedicated tow truck, a larger, heavier trailer, and the cost of owning each; plates, insurance, etc.

So far it seems the biggest issue (really the only unfixable one) would be wheelbase.

I think the closest thing to what you would want would have to be a Defender 110 or 130... Sell the D1 and buy a 1983 Defender with the NA diesel which would make the swap to a 200 tdi simple. I think that overall would be more fun to have then a D1 anyway, although it probably wouldn't be that comfortable on long trips.

Get a dodge ram 2500 cummins, comfortable to tow in with lots of powers

I have a 6spd with 3.54 gears and a ton of mods and I could tow my d90 at 75mph and get around 18mpg, but my motor is built and have custom turbo etc.

Hi there,

seems like you suffer the pain to have choices. Regulations would make it too hard in my country to do 99% of the engine/axle suggestions I read here.

I would have to use a 300tdi, upgrade the axle internally, add a large intercooler, then tweak the 300tdi a little (to give 130Bhp instead of 110Bhp) and just define myself happy if I needed to tow heavy trailer regularly. The torque will somewhat compare to the V8. Power will get things moving anytime. In the end upgrading a 300tdi is so much less work than a engine swap, not talking about "$". "?" is if there really is definite demand for more power other than "nice to have".

People are happier with a 4.0Liter Toyota TD (which is/was common overhere) when towing whcih I can believe. The Rover-TDi starts to be relatively thirsty when towing hard. But the Tdi will do it and still use less fuel at worst than a 4.6V8 unladen at highway cruising speed.

So far it seems the biggest issue (really the only unfixable one) would be wheelbase.

It's not so much wheelbase as the distance between the towball and the rear axle in relation to the wheelbase. Wheelbase gets cited as a huge factor for towing stability, but it isn't as important as it's made out to be. The longer the overhang, the less stable the whole thing is. Think gooseneck. The Disco has a disadvantage there, but I think you can manage. 100 inch wheelbase is still pretty good, I see plenty of people that use K5s for towing and they work great, short overhang and 100 inch wheelbase.

Not everyone is getting the idea. Yeah a big ol' Daadge would probably tow better but it's another POS to maintain, and a big ass american pile is not everyone's cup of tea. I recently borrowed a 2005 3500 Dodge to pickup my new FZJ80 Cruiser and I was not impressed. It was gutless (in comparison to my mildly turned up 6BT), the ride was super rough, the seats sucked, the interior looked like the inside of a Dodge Caravan, and at 120K miles it had pinball steering and felt like it had two flat tires. Maybe if I was 50, but I'd way rather be driving a one-off cool 4wd with all the toys than a bland boring overweight pile of Detroit iron.

I think the Zuzu + NV4500 + LT230 + Sals on 2 inch springs with 235/85R16s and swaybars would work great for 5-6000 lbs. The only thing is the 4s tend to shake a lot, my Cruiser 4 cyl diesels always rattled like a mofer, 6s are smoother, but a 6BT is probably 10 lbs of isht for a 5 lbs bag. The only other 6 I am familiar with is a 1HZ Toyota, but they need a turbo to make real power and they are kind of light duty.

I really think a twin turbo Detroit 4-53 is the answer. Really.

An aluminum trailer would probably help a bit, although I don't know if the benefits would outweigh the cost.

So are you to lazy to flat tow? You could have spent 2000.00 of the 2500.00 on a diesel engine from the last tow session. If you really are out to save money it can be done. Use common sense and drive reasonable mph is good advice as well. If you want to tow with 300 tdi or a smaller diesel engine in your D1.

If its only to pull shit around at a reasonable highway speed, 5 grand will get you a basic but solid and reliable 3/4 ton 2wd. That you can get parts for any where. Factor in another 7 grand for a trailer long enough to put the disco and buggy on and you are set. My 2wd chevy is boring to drive, easy on gas, ridiculously reliable (one set of rear brakes in 3 years,plus regular fluid changes) and very comfortable on long trips. Its hard to be an off roader without a dedicated tow rig and trailer. Here in Canada you cannot flat tow anything more than half the tow rigs weight.