An interesting read.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,563883,00.html

After 12 Magazines as fast he could probably change them out? Yea, probably to damn hot to do anything with.

It is a crying shame our gubament is putting our guys through that shit.

Steam roll the whole damn country, villages and all.

Democracy and freedom can only work when a country's own people pay for by their OWN blood! We have NO business manning their freakin outposts.
If the village people don't do anything about the terrorist in their own village, then they can die with them...

Same Shit Different War


been hearing that since about 1968 or so...


run a M16/M4 FA for more than 4-5 mags and it will shut down...always have-always will...the tolerances are just too tight and when heated, expansion of the different metals causes failure.


ever wonder why an AK is so frigging LOOSE when cold? ask anyone who shot the AK at the OSR event if there was any jams/failures...


we need some updates to the operating mechanism...in the meantime, issue some M14's.

ANY rifle can overheat due to sustained rapid fire. That's why in WW2 the germans MG42 had quick swapable barrels, a concept that was continued with the M60. When the barrel turns red/white you are risking cooking off rounds in the chamber.

Doesn't sound like weapons failure is the issue, sounds like the number of troops and the defensive plan is the issue.

Sounds like another "Commander in Chief" fail to me...

ARFCOM is beating this to death too.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=939798

They seem to be of the general consensus that its a cooked up media shitstorm. Apparently alot of guys over there claim that their rifles can and have done that kind of rapid firing. I don't know personally I have never tried to fire off 12 mags as fast as I can. They also seem to be calling bullshit on barrels getting white hot too. Again I don't have any experience of being shot at and trying to shoot the other asshole as fast as I can without any regard for the barrel of my weapon. Id probably be throwing as many rounds down as possible until the fawkers were dead.

Like my viet nam vet uncle said when he saw my m4forgery. "It works pretty good shooting here now, but drag it through the jungle and shoot at gooks all day long with it and see how it does.":laughing:

They also seem to be calling bullshit on barrels getting white hot too. .

Here's an M60 melting down the barrel.

YouTube - Glowing M60 Barrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGAwrmOapb4&feature=related)

I could swear I saw a vid once of a firefight at night and one of the guys shooting got the barrel of his M4 glowing. The guys with him were yelling at him to unload so rounds wouldn't cook off. Cant seem to find it though.

I am not expert, nor do I claim to be, but why not just convert all of the current M4's to piston driven instead of DI? It seems like it would be a cost effective solution. That is if anything really needs to be changed at all.

I am not expert, nor do I claim to be, but why not just convert all of the current M4's to piston driven instead of DI? It seems like it would be a cost effective solution. That is if anything really needs to be changed at all.

No.

The piston retrofits are crap.

Go with something originally designed to run a piston if you're set on replacing it with a piston gun.


I love how Coburn's corrupt ass is in there stumping for his sponsor: HK.

Nothing ever changes.

Nothing ever changes.

Grunts have been bitching about effectiveness of weaponry since they first started hucking rocks at eachother in a semi organized fashion. :laughing:

Here's an M60 melting down the barrel.

YouTube - Glowing M60 Barrel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGAwrmOapb4&feature=related)

I could swear I saw a vid once of a firefight at night and one of the guys shooting got the barrel of his M4 glowing. The guys with him were yelling at him to unload so rounds wouldn't cook off. Cant seem to find it though.

That was a shit pile of Ammo

No.

The piston retrofits are crap.

Go with something originally designed to run a piston if you're set on replacing it with a piston gun.


I love how Coburn's corrupt ass is in there stumping for his sponsor: HK.

It would be nice if the weapons that the US armed forces uses, were actually made in the US.

It would be nice if the weapons that the US armed forces uses, were actually made in the US.

Last I heard the M4 was still made in Connecticut, the M240/M249s are both made at FNs US plant(S. Carolina?), and the M9 is made in the USA as well.

the M9 is made in the USA as well.

Indianhead MD?

What I was trying to say is that it would be nice if the future weapons of the US armed forces were made in the USA. As in just say no to HK.

I love how Coburn's corrupt ass

More info:confused::confused::confused:

More info:confused::confused::confused:

He is a corrupt piece of shit that has been purchased by H&K.

He even advertises for them on his own freaking senate page.
http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=LatestNews.NewsStories&ContentRecord_id=3cfc771b-802a-23ad-401f-548fca60510e&Issue_id=

He's even gone so far as to claim that the HK416 fires a more lethal round than the M4 carbine.

He's even gone so far as to claim that the HK416 fires a more lethal round than the M4 carbine.

It does. Anyone worthy enough to run an HK is obviously more lethal

Last I heard the M4 was still made in Connecticut, the M240/M249s are both made at FNs US plant(S. Carolina?), and the M9 is made in the USA as well.

SCAR-L and H are FN but made in the US

When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

July 2008?

The headline would have you believe it was the recent attacks.

I know it might be biased, but every report I have seen says that troops down range like the M4

Large amount of ammo in a short period of time is going to cause problems with any weapon.

He is a corrupt piece of shit that has been purchased by H&K.

He even advertises for them on his own freaking senate page.
http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=LatestNews.NewsStories&ContentRecord_id=3cfc771b-802a-23ad-401f-548fca60510e&Issue_id=

He's even gone so far as to claim that the HK416 fires a more lethal round than the M4 carbine.

In a world of compromise, some don't:flipoff2:

556 is also made in the US.

SCAR-L and H are FN but made in the US

I was making the ASSumption that he was referring to current general issue stuff.

I could swear I saw a vid once of a firefight at night and one of the guys got the barrel of his M4 glowing. The guys with him were yelling at him to unload so rounds wouldn't cook off. Cant seem to find it though.
I remember seeing it. It was a SAW, not an m4. And it looked to have been filmed with a night-vision handicam, so the barrel was glowing white like the sun. It looked like the soldier was wielding a lightsaber. :eek:

In a 3-5 minute long video, that man easily burned through 700-1,000 rounds minimum. He was laying down some SERIOUS suppressive fire.

"Dude, go condition 3... Go condition 3! ... You're fixing to have a cook off..."

That kinda converastion sticks in your head. ;)

YouTube - M249 Round Cookoff, 2 Melted Gun barrels (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht9DOM_-Xto&feature=player_embedded)

i dont think this one was a cook off though... seemed like it didnt chamber or something... notice the "OOOhhh...." right before...
YouTube - M249 cook-off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seZZoddtlH8&feature=player_embedded)

Look I'm not trying to start a who's d**k is bigger fight on this topic. I've been in the Corps for more than 11 years now, 4 as an 0311 and 7 as an 0321. I have been in combat in both Afghanistan and Iraq. Neither the M249 SAW or M4 / M16 series of weapons is a perfect weapon, but in my experience when properly cared for both by the end user and by the armorers these weapons are pretty reliable.

I am not saying that these guys did not experience malfunctions. I am also not saying that there isn't a better weapon out there.

The OPINIONS I will express are these:

12 magazines in less than 30 minutes is a LOT of ammo to shoot especially that fast. I would venture to say that if the soldier was properly trained and actually aiming each shot at an actual enemy the rate of fire would be much, much lower. I will say that dumping 12 mags that fast would indicate a working weapon. Simply throwing your weapon down sounds indicative of very poor training though.

While I can't say that there was a lack of maintenance since I wasn't there, I can say that there are a large number of Marines, Sailors, Soldiers, and Airmen that do not take care of their weapons. I would say that it is highly probable that the weapons that didn't work simply weren't looked after. When I am on a camp I constantly see weapons that aren't lubed at all. I see M4s with the ejection port open to the elements. Maintaining your weapon isn't the end of it either, I've asked lots of servicemen when the last time they cleaned their magazine and their response is often "You can take it apart?"

The standard M855 "green tip" round that is the standard 5.56 round is not a great round for shooting skinny Arabs that are unencumbered by body armor. The 77 grain AA53 ammo that is available in both Iraq and Afghanistan is a much better round. Would I like to see a better round than that even, hell yes. Do I think one is likely to show up in widespread distribution? Nope.

Not that I'm cynical or anything.....

-Story line is sneaking up on two years old.
-Actual date is buried in the text.
-Some US polital factions want more boots on the ground.
-Wouldn't hurt if their clients could sell more / different weapons to the Military.

Follow the $$ boys.

The next argument that mysteriously pops up will be, "gee, we don't have time or money to re-design a weapons system. I guess we'll just have to send more folks over there."

I'm not saying that I think that's a bad idea, I'm just proposing that the "failing weapon" story seems conveniently timed to support the position.

My bro is n Kabul right now, so he was interested. Our father is a research metallurgist. Dad said without reading or researching the weapon, metallurgy or the facts. In general as a steel alloy, the material will get very f-ing hot, then RED long before it gets WHITE. "NO such thing as “white hot”, that would be over 2000F and the barrels would have drooped well before that and blown up. Very hot? Probably. I don ‘t know how hot a barrel can get but would suggest that 6 or 700F is probably max., considerably lower is more probable. Comprende ? Red starts at h=what, 600-700 ? At that temp the gun is done, hun. Long before it could get white, even at night.

You guys that weld, torches. What temp is red hot ? What happens to metal at twice that temp, 1200F, before it gets white, and you put 50,000 psi ammo down the tube, round after round ? Doesn't it fail BEFORE it gets white ??? Do you agree with the old folks and the metal degree ??

Media schmedia macro Credeia.

there were a lot of rds run thru the AK at the OSR shoot...not mag after mag immediately, but pretty close...30-40rd mag dumps WILL get teh bbl and gas tube too hot to touch, as in instant cooked skin. I have fired it enuff to see the bbl and gas tube glowing red...and it still fired. now it took a couple of 75-100rd drum dumps, but it still worked.

try a 100rd drum dump with a M4 and see if you can finish the drum...maybe-maybe not.


we need an update, but we need to head other directions from where we are currently going.
I think we need to go back to something larger than 22cal..maybe not 30 cal, but maybe something in between...