Panamint Valley Days [Archive] - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

lttlbddy

11-15-2009, 09:11 PM

Todd, sorry I missed you as well.

As a member of the Desert Dawgs a lot of my club members were there on both Friday and Saturday helping with the accident and I can offer up most of the names that helped:

Friday night: Matt & Beth Battaglia, Daniel and Amanda Alvarez, Matt Manzanetti, Mary ?, if there were others, I can't remember. Daniel was at Ballarat communicating with NPS, CHP & other officials. Gunner was at base camp relaying Ham Radio messages between the rescue site, base camp and Ballarat. Andy Cunningham and the Ruff Rock Cafe kitchen crew made up a bunch of burritos and chicken that was delivered onto the rescue site by John Snell.

Saturday: Gunner Taylor, Guy ? from the Gadzuks. Bob Reed (Cal 4 Wheel President), Harry Baker (Cal 4 Wheel VP, South District).

I know a lot of your Hanford Trailbusters were in on the vehicle recovery team as well.

The accident happened at about 3:30pm and the driver of the Cherokee lifted off from Ballarat just after midnight. It was a long night for all.

Most of the Desert Dawgs were either leading trails or trail crew on Saturday with 8am run departure times. All runs seemed to go off on schedule but I did see a lot of bleary eyes on Saturday afternoon.

FYI - 3 of these Desert Dawgs members just received their Ham Licenses a few months ago. All used them on this day. Many other members have had their Ham license longer and were using them on this day. The Ham communication worked very well for this emergency situation. At one point, we used Ham to relay questions and information between trail down and Ballarat and then to NPS dispatch to NPS Rangers on the trail. It wasn't direct but it got the same information to all involved.

navy-jeepster

11-16-2009, 08:19 AM

Steve

Thanks for the names of the Desert Dawgs that came up to help.
They were great and did an outstanding job.
I will work on a letter from our club President to your club President, thanking them for their help.

Marsha is home now and recovering fine. She has a medical appt today to evaluate her hand that is bruised up.

The ham radios are the way to go, and as we all know, the CB's become useless in a canyon like that for long distance communications. Our club became painfully aware of it this weekend.
I am attending a ham class later this week, and it has been scheduled for a while. I am trying to get other club members into the class too.
Also, the first aid kits that were in the vehicles were useless. Not the right type of stuff to treat what was wrong up there.
We are going to buy a big trama type bag for the club. Another painfull lesson this weekend.

I personally think the requirement to carry a first aid kit is an old idea that needs to go away.
In its place, a event should have a trama style bag of medical supplies at the ready, and run leaders be first aid trained.

I know a guy that carries a back board, difibulator and oxygen in his jeep.
He may never have to use it, but he is ready if needed.
I do not think we will go to that extreme though.

But it was a wake up call for us in a situation like this.

Thanks for everyones help.

Todd
Trail Busters Secretary.

lttlbddy

11-16-2009, 09:51 AM

We have some issues with the way communications worked with the "Officals" (BLM, NPS, Sheriff, CHP). We will be addressing those to see how we can improve the "system".

This is an area that has ZERO digital coverage and minimal analog coverage. We are already looking into renting a Sat Phone for the week of the event next year. It won't help the with the clueless people we call but at least we will be able to get the ball rolling a bit faster.

On the subject of Ham License . . . we do try to have someone with Ham as trail crew on every run. We can't always talk from point to point but with a relay from base camp, we haven't found any dead spots in the entire valley (so far).

OTR

11-16-2009, 10:07 AM

We have some issues with the way communications worked with the "Officals" (BLM, NPS, Sheriff, CHP). We will be addressing those to see how we can improve the "system".

Steve. Can you expand on this ?

k.

lttlbddy

11-16-2009, 10:36 AM

Kris,

I've just had a brief discussion with an involved Club Member before the raffle Saturday night. Once we have a wrap-up meeting and discuss this with better detail and fact, I will be glad to share and bounce ideas around.

Steve

Steve. Can you expand on this ?

k.

celticcross

11-16-2009, 11:20 AM

I was out there listening on the ham radio. There was no reason for it to take 9hrs for the lady to make down to the transport.
It also took very long to get a hold of the BLM and CHP. With no cell service there needs to be a satellite phone at the next event.
It also needs to be said that the group that was on the trail on friday was not part of a PVD event. They were out there on there own and thanks to the help of the people of PVD they all made it out.

navy-jeepster

11-16-2009, 11:33 AM

It also needs to be said that the group that was on the trail on friday was not part of a PVD event. They were out there on there own and thanks to the help of the people of PVD they all made it out.

The group was out on this run on their own is a true statement.
But they were there for the PVD event to participate in organized runs on Sat.

There are many lessons for all involved from the accident on Friday.
Our club is changing the way they will do some things.

We will change something with how we lead the High Sierra event too.
We will do some extra planning in case something like this accident happens on Swamp Lake trail.

We never want to see someone get hurt.
But sometimes it brings to light little holes in our plans, and we find ways to fix them.
Enough about that.

The crew that went up and recovered the jeep did an outstanding job of getting the jeep out of the bottom of that canyon and did it safely.

Steve listed their names below.
The names from the Hanford Trail Busters are:
Clay Weed
Al Spires
Todd Ockert
Rebel Hunt
Scott ?

Then we all worked on getting their motorhome home and their vehicles from PVD event site.

Marsha is doing well. She has an appointment today to check out her getting dizzy on the way home from the L.A. area.

Our club is still in somewhat of shock.
We probably not wheel again until sometime after the first of the year.
We did have a trip planned to Jaw Bone in Dec. Not going to happen now.

Thanks for all the prayers and concern.
We have a great wheeling family that takes care of their own in time of need.
It was proven without a doubt on Friday and Sat.

From the Hanford Trail Busters, thanks to everyone out there for their thoughts and prayers.

Todd

igofshn

11-16-2009, 02:23 PM

There was no reason for it to take 9hrs for the lady to make down to the transport

It took 9 hours because the rescue personnel would not go in there to help get her out. She had to be carried out using the back seat as a back board. Park service was more worried about getting the vehicle out than her condition.

OTR

11-16-2009, 03:50 PM

Park service was more worried about getting the vehicle out than her condition.

Im just curious.

You are the second person in this thread to mention the Park Service.

What did NPS have to do with it ?
Chicken Rock is not within the NPS boundary.

This should have been a BLM and Inyo Sheriff/SAR issue.
CHP would be involved only in the capacity to route a mobile 911 call to the appropriate agency. I can see a breakdown happening there, that happens all the time. If the call did go to the NPS, that was wrong.

Did you speak to anyone in the park ?
Id like to know who it was in the Park that had more concern for the vehicle than the driver. Emergencies are taken very seriously there, especially in the backcountry.

k.

cweed

11-16-2009, 04:09 PM

SAR was there and they were as bad as the rest. There were two young CHP officers that hitched a ride with Mike from Desert Dawgs and then hiked up to where we were waiting at the bottom of the cliff. There were two groups of search and rescue at Ballarat that turned around and went home while we were still waiting for help and we were still at the bottom of the cliff.

We didn't have a back board so we made one from the rear seat and pulled her up the side of the cliff one ledge at a time.

I was there with the injured driver the entire time from the beginning until we got her on the chopper. The rangers were very rude and didn't want to help, The rangers were at the top of cliff watching us lifting her up ledges and went back and sat in their JK while I was yelling repeadily for them to come and help us. The CHP officers didn't have to be there but I am very glad they were. Like I mentioned the rangers didn't want to help us but the CHP pursuaded them to do so and allowed us to transport her in the back of their JK (it was only 34 (f) at that time, we had been in the bottom of the cliff for 9 hours then). We didn't even have her in the ambulance at the trail before the head Ranger that was waiting for us asked if we were going back to get the jeep. I told him then ( while the drivers husband looked in disbelief) that it wasn't going to happen that night and his next question was if we could have it out by Monday.

The paramedic's on the ambulance got mad and shitty attitudes because the CHP medic wanted to air lift her out becuase Ridgcrest wasn't capable of handling the trauma.

In listening and watching what was transpiring between the agenies that were there it was like watching a bunch of school kids fighting and bickering.

I for one will never rely on or expect any help from the so called emergency services. Two guy's even drove to Trona at 110 mph to get the fire and rescue and they said it was to far away and they wouldn't help. I'll have all the EMT equipment with me next time and can promise you we won't sit and wait for 9 hours to have to pull ourselves out anyway.

lttlbddy

11-16-2009, 04:17 PM

Neither of the helo teams were night certified or mountain certified and would not rescue in the canyon. The only night/mountain cert team was the military and they wouldn't come, I don't know their reasons.

We will be finding out exactly what resources we can rely on and the best ways to use them at our upcoming meetings.

Steve G

OTR

11-16-2009, 04:33 PM

cweed

11-16-2009, 04:52 PM

I may have the rangers names on some of the paperwork that was being filled out at the time. I'll check. There were two teams that made it to Ballarat, none of the SAR teams showed ever showed up at chicken. I heard about the choppers not coming. The CHP officer was relaying information to us on the status. First they were coming, then they weren't, then they were, then they weren't. This went on for some time.

We had her stable within a few minutes of the roll over. The rest was waiting for help to get her out without the potential for additional injury to her or the people helping. A basket and more help would have reduced that time we were there.

cweed

11-16-2009, 05:02 PM

As an update Marsha the driver is doing well, we just talked with her. She won't need reconstructive surgery on her thumb but it won't be the prettiest digit on her hand. She ended up with 40 staples on the cut on her head. Outside of that she is in higher spirits and resting at home. Both boy's are doing well with just minor bruises and scrapes.

igofshn

11-16-2009, 06:57 PM

You are the second person in this thread to mention the Park Service.

Rangers/Park Service??? What ever they were.

jeep937

11-16-2009, 07:19 PM

What happened?

navy-jeepster

11-16-2009, 08:01 PM

What happened?

Read part of the thread.

It is up near the top.

Panamint Charlie

11-16-2009, 09:21 PM

Great job to all those involved! You guys pulled through and did what needed to be done.

We will be finding out exactly what resources we can rely on and the best ways to use them at our upcoming meetings.

I'd be interested in hearing what you guys come up with.

I re cert with the Red-Cross every few years for first-aid and CPR. I figure it's the least I can do to be somewhat prepared for a medical emergency. Maybe some of the clubs out there should get their members together and do the same. Can't hurt.

A Defib machine would also be a good thing to have at some of these events that take place so far from civilization. Something to think about...

Again, Awesome job pulling together. All of us at panamintvalley.com are glad to hear the accident victims are going to be alright.

Rocksurfer

11-16-2009, 10:11 PM

As a standard user here I am unable to post attachments, I was with the Pleasant run and took a lot of pictures of the recovery. I have posted them on MC if anyone wants to view them.

http://board.marlincrawler.com/index.php?topic=63650.0

mywillys

11-17-2009, 04:24 AM

So what happened? Did the XJ come down and get off camber and roll or what?

Or were they going up? Glad to hear everyone is ok and they got the XJ out.

lttlbddy

11-17-2009, 05:04 AM

If running the trail down hill, that corner is off camber leaning toward the passenger side and the ledge is blind to the driver. Your always inclined to move as far left, into the wall, as you can. There is a bump on the drivers side right at the most uncomfortable spot of the turn and from the tire marks it looks like she turned more into the wall when she hit the bump, lifting the drivers side up until she rolled on the trail, then off of the trail.

Any groups I run with, as well as all runs during the event, we place a spotter at ths corner and talk people around it. In reality there is 3-4 feet of extra trail even with the widest rigs. H1s and other full sized vehicles do run this trail.

AndyR

11-17-2009, 07:06 AM

I heard from Todd (yesterday via FB) that Marsha was home and doing ok (if you can call 40 staples ok). So here's my personal recollection of how things went down.

Early Friday afternoon, I was leading the 40 rigs of the Big Four run back to blacktop when I heard the call go out for a medivac on the 2m, there'd been a bad roll with possible internal injuries off either the rock or bridge in South Park.

I called back into PVD base camp and told them I was about 3 miles from Panamint Springs, which has phone service. PVD asked that I call 911. I then CB'd my trail crew, told them to get the PVD run back safe, and that I needed to call in an emergency.

So I got back to PSR where the Inyo Sherriff's SAR Surburban was gassing up. I told them where the roll was (they had no clue where South Park was).
They said they would try and call their dispatch for instructions. They did ask me to still call 911. So I called 911, got routed to CHP, they took details. I must have been the 2nd caller (they already had Gunner's real name), and confirmed that they knew where the accident was located and were dispatching units.

I then went back to the Into SAR folks, who were trying to locate South Park (these were the 4? guys on orange shirts). I ripped the GPS out of my Jeep and showed them how to get there and how far up the canyon the rock was.
They then took off headed down to Ballarat. Only one of the SAR guys seemed to have a clue (the driver).

The rest was all unfolding some 30+ miles (as the crow flies) south of my location - without 2m rigs this would have been a lot more difficult.

Andy

navy-jeepster

11-17-2009, 07:56 AM

Andy

Thanks for your assistance on Friday in making that call.
Looking back we can say that somethings were done correctly, and others were not at all levels.
Not going to place any blame on anyone at this point, as we will not get anything done to improve reactions next time.

We learned that the basic first aid kits we all are supposed to carry were useless. They went through like three of them and not nearly enough supplies. Our club members and club is going to buy a trama bag with the bigger bandages and more trama stuff.
We are all going to become basic first aid trained.
The CB's up on the hill were useless to communicate out of the canyon.
We are all in the process of getting ham radios and certified to use them.

As we are the club in charge of High Sierra, we will have an emergency plan in place for the event, and will test it during the summer to see how it works.

We will all have our ham radios by then and that will improve our communications along the swamp lake trail back to base camp.

We have less government organizations to squable about who is in charge or who will help too. The FS personnel in the Sierra are good people and help us pretty good.

As mentioned, the crew on the hill were being told different things during the day/night and they made decisions based on those facts. Hindsight, next time the injured person will be transported right away unless they are so severe that it is impossible.

The recovery of the jeep went flawlessly, and our club had lots of good help. Thanks to them for their great help.
This is a great family to be involved with, and it showed this past weekend. No one ever wants to see a fellow wheeler get injured, and everyone was pulling for her this weekend.

The Central District VP carries a full trama bag in his jeep, along with oxygen, back board, neck brace and difibulator. Some of that maybe extreme, but if needed ever on the trail, then it pays for itself at that time.
Just like the cost of a trama bag. They can be costly, but if used once to save someones life, the cost is worth it...

Thanks

Todd

WAM

11-17-2009, 11:29 AM

I know it falls into the category of 20/20 hindsight, but I notice all the criticism seems to apply to the rescue and not the incident itself. I was a trail hand on the official run thru there and our club has conducted that run many years with no similar incidents. This is truly a case of an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure. That corner may be a little hair-raising, but it is not dangerous with proper spotting.

Ironically, we were prepping the Pleasant side of the run about the time of the accident. While taking lunch on a high point, we intercepted a may-day CB call from a stranded loner TWENTY miles away over in the Argus range. Just a pure luck line-of-sight thing. So while others were learning of and responding to the South Park incident, we left that area to track down the stranded guy and winch him back onto the road. He had gone half over the edge backing down a steep shelf road over in Snow Canyon. Hadn't a clue where he was, but he carried a GPS and that was good enough.

Anyway, I'd suggest you lay off bad-mouthing SAR and such until you know all the facts. Generally the county is responsible, but Inyo seat is a ways off and probably have little experience in PV. China Lake Mountain Rescue (I was a member ten years) is nearby, but a different county. Not allowed to participate without an Inyo invitation. Yeah, it's bureaucracy...get over it. Rather than upgrade SAR efficiency ($$$), a much more likely outcome is the powers-that-be will simply declare the road unsafe and close it. Another classic route gone.

Basedan10

11-17-2009, 12:20 PM

I was actually the Ham operator down in Ballarat and the main issue in talking the CHP Sergeant was County Lines.

CHP isn't allowed to do mountain rescues at night. San Bernardino County is but they wouldn't send there copter over due to the incident being in Inyo County. China Lake was going to send there Heli over but they said it wasn't going to be ready for 5 hours. The military did have a copter available but it would have came from San Luis Obispo and the wait on that was 3.5hrs. San Bernadino County finally sent Trona Fire over to Ballart sometime after 8pm. Search and Rescue was called in but they had a 3.5 hr wait due to them coming from Bishop so they were called off....

In all it was just one big mess that was out of our control. Bureaucracy was the main reason why we couldn't get to her sooner.

igofshn

11-17-2009, 12:45 PM

Anyway, I'd suggest you lay off bad-mouthing SAR and such until you know all the facts. Generally the county is responsible, but Inyo seat is a ways off and probably have little experience in PV. China Lake Mountain Rescue (I was a member ten years) is nearby, but a different county. Not allowed to participate without an Inyo invitation. Yeah, it's bureaucracy...get over it.

Life is more important than county lines. Action should have been taken and then worry about what line they crossed. Trona was the closest fire crew. One of the responders went to Trona Fire after making the initial call and they said, "nope can't go, out of our territory".

Krusty

11-17-2009, 12:51 PM

just as a side note--- all of the Tin Benders have gone to 'race radios' (2 meter), as well as the TDS club-
running such as the Hammers and TDS, nothing else has the range to get you 'home'--- 75 watts !

we have mostly gone to the ICom. V8000--- just about the same $$ as a good C/B- but 500 times the range !!!!!!!!! (the IComm 8000 is easly modified)-(and if needed, CAN transmit on the 'first responders' freq's)

with MY advanceing age, the wife INSISTED that i be able to call to 'base camp' if needed ! (20 miles out and on the 'other side' of the mountain--) (thank you Dear !)

i am GLAD things worked out- and a 'wake-up' call for all of us !!!!!!

navy-jeepster

11-17-2009, 01:13 PM

I do not think there was any issues with the response that we got from base camp, as they helped out as much as possible.

The local agencies are always worried about who is going to pay for what and do not want to step on toes of the other agency's.

I have known for a while of the increased range of the ham radio, but just not bought one. Well, it is now on order.

We have relied on CB's for a long time, and never got out of that comfortable box as that is what we knew. Well, that is changing for our club as we will be getting ham radios. Some of us will get the hand helds and others will get the mobile radios, or both.

I know next time our club members will do what we have to do to get the individual off the mountain as fast and safely as possible without waiting for the professionals.

then if they want to stand around and argue about it, they might get kicked in their junk!

Like mentioned, we got a wakeup call this past weekend.

Todd

Krusty

11-17-2009, 03:40 PM

most of us still have C/B, they work fine in your convoy on the trail----- but to get to the base camp--- 2 meter is the only way to go !!!

larryboy

11-17-2009, 06:29 PM

I would think that a club would want a SPOT messenger for organized runs, it would have saved many hours in this situation. You get to dial 911 by satelite for a much lower expense than a sat phone.

lttlbddy

11-17-2009, 06:42 PM

I would think that a club would want a SPOT messenger for organized runs,

Well, why didn't you tell us about this before the event? I've never heard of it and I don't think anyone else with the event had either.

Rocksurfer

11-17-2009, 07:24 PM

Our club went to 2 meter a few years ago, for basic truck to truck chatter we carry those cheapy walkie talkies and some still have their old CB's. I have all 3 radios so that I can also communicate in large groups such as PVD, HDR or other organized events. With the 2 meter we usually have some that don't go on the run like some of our wives. I remember being able to radio from Rubicon Springs to our basecamp at Loon Lake. We also were talking to our basecamp during PVD when we were on the Pleasant loop during the event from the overlook point at lunch. In 2006 we had a member break his back on the trail, we were able to radio back to camp and have a truck unhooked and ready from his trailer to transport him for care.

navy-jeepster

11-17-2009, 07:58 PM

I would think that a club would want a SPOT messenger for organized runs, it would have saved many hours in this situation. You get to dial 911 by satelite for a much lower expense than a sat phone.

There was a group of utv's that came through and used their spot. They hit the button about an hour after the accident.
So, no real help.

It goes out across the satelite via the elt freq's that could be monitored for that area.
If not monitored by the satelites, no help will arrive.

But we are all going with ham to use the reach of this radio in the future.

Todd

larryboy

11-18-2009, 02:55 PM

Well, why didn't you tell us about this before the event? I've never heard of it and I don't think anyone else with the event had either.

I'm not really a fan of the thing as it seems to get people into more trouble since they have the feel of a safety net, but I think it might be a pretty good tool for a 4x4 club to have and share the expense among members. It's not perfect like Todd mentioned.

Panamint Charlie

11-18-2009, 07:19 PM

I'm not really a fan of the thing as it seems to get people into more trouble since they have the feel of a safety net,

That, or resources being tied up dealing with dumbasses who should not be allowed to leave the confines of their own homes.
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days (http://home.nps.gov/applications/digest/headline.cfm?type=Incidents&id=4850)

That being said, my Wife is buying me one so she feels better when I go off into the hills for a few days on solo hikes. The device allows the user to be tracked hourly and also send OK messages. It's cheap insurance that gives her peace of mind.

igofshn

11-19-2009, 08:22 AM

That, or resources being tied up dealing with dumbasses who should not be allowed to leave the confines of their own homes.
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days (http://home.nps.gov/applications/digest/headline.cfm?type=Incidents&id=4850)

That being said, my Wife is buying me one so she feels better when I go off into the hills for a few days on solo hikes. The device allows the user to be tracked hourly and also send OK messages. It's cheap insurance that gives her peace of mind.
Like Todd stated, one was activated. It did not help at all. Waste of money. False sense of security.

Panamint Charlie

11-19-2009, 06:38 PM

Like Todd stated, one was activated. It did not help at all. Waste of money. False sense of security.

Is it possible that they (whoever they are) received the activation and concluded that the activation was located at the scene of a already reported emergency?

I'm not trying to defend the spot device but from the few times I've heard of an activation, there was always a response.

I know countless hikers who use the spot to send OK messages and I'd say about 90% of the messages make it to the recipient. Terrain seems to be the only factor. I like the track function. I was able to follow a group of friends while they traveled all throughout their trip through Death Valley.

I'll test the snot out of the spot when I get it but the only sense of true security I have is in my G21 and my own redneck ingenuity.:)

navy-jeepster

11-19-2009, 08:05 PM

Panamint Charley

It is possible that they saw that resources were already headed that way and did nothing. Not sure though.

For the tracking, you have to pay for that function though.
It is cool, but for us, everyone from the club was at the event. It would have taken another family member to activate some form of rescue response.

Like already mentioned, we will not count of the federal officials to assist next time.
We will be better prepared for an emergency and react to what is happening at the local time.

Thanks

Todd

AndyR

11-19-2009, 08:11 PM

And that's the primary problem with the 911 feature of SPOT, you have no way of knowing if the msg was Rx'd. At least with 2m or a Sat phone, you can hold the conversation.

Next time I'm out there with mine I'm going to program the Bishop CHP et.al numbers in there before hand. Now....the only trouble with Globalstar at the moment is that they're launching new birds and call coverage is unreliable.

Andy

lttlbddy

11-19-2009, 09:02 PM

Like already mentioned, we will not count of the federal, state, county or local officials to assist next time.

A slight correction for you Todd.

edit > I will add that in different situations waiting for EMS can be the best way. Every situation can be different. Last Spring, we had another roll in the desert by Barstow. When I got on scene, everyone was preparing to move the injured guy. I convinced them (and the victim) to stay put while we waiting for EMS. He was stable and we were in a decent area for EMS to respond. We still ended up waiting 1.5-2 hours but it turned out that there were fractured vertebrae so I was happy to leave transporting to the experts.

navy-jeepster

11-19-2009, 09:13 PM

Steve

You are right. Every situation is different.
If the driver had been pinned or something appreared worse, you make the decisions based on the best info.
Decisions were made that night based on info that was not in fact correct.
If it had been life of death on the hill, she could have died before a decision was made to move her off the hill in a rig.
We do have a qualified EMT in the club and decisions can be based on his knowledge.

Todd

igofshn

11-20-2009, 08:26 AM

Here is a good article reference reception with the SPOT.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13512_3-9839898-23.html

I'll go with a Sat phone and some of the others will go with Ham. To me the SPOT is a false sense of security.

navy-jeepster

11-20-2009, 09:43 AM

I agree with Al about the Spot device.
In the article, the tester only got about 20 to 30 percent of his tracking signals out to the satelites.
GPS signals are degraded in steep canyons and heavy tree coverage.
This unit also has a yearly fee for all the functions.

Ham does have it's own limitations too. But I think they are easily overcome.
With the option of a mobile and hand held devices for ham, we have the power to reach out to far away repeaters and the mobility of the hand held to get down to an injured person if needed.
You also know that someone is coming with the ham as the person on the other end can tell you that they have made the call.
Ham can also do a phone patch and you can talk to rescue personnel directly to give them a heads up of what to expect upon arrival. Spot can not tell them info about the situation.

I am working on an article for the UFWDA Voice magazine that will come out in Jan. It will include our lessons learned and what clubs and individuals can do to be safer on the trail. We are in a sport that has inhearant dangers that we try to mitigate as much as possible.

Todd

cweed

11-21-2009, 08:12 AM

Doing an analysis on what went wrong after the dust and emotions settled here is what happened. Two CHP officers came up to the site with one of our friends from the camp. Five other camp members also came up to assist. We sent the kids down to get checked out while we waited for additional help to reach us. Once the kids made it down the paramedic’s were told that she was stable, laying down, and awake. This was true. Inyo County SAR was on their way. The ambulance paramedic called down the choppers and the SAR group because she was stable. Still at the bottom of the 175 drop off but stable.
The two young CHP officers that rode up to us made sure that at least one chopper stayed at Ballarat. We finally decided to take her down the mountain. There were two Park Rangers who stopped at the site, but these two guys were very rude and didn’t seem like they wanted to help. In the end they did help by transporting her down in the back of their JK (bitching all the way down as the injured listened). If they worked for a private company they would be looking for work now. The ambulance paramedic’s decided that she would not be air lifted and would be transported to Ridgecrest instead and again tried to call off the last chopper.
Part way back to Ballarat the ambulance was stopped by the CHP and the chopper paramedic assessed the injuries and made the call that she would be air lifted. The ambulance paramedic’s were instantly pissed and their whole attitude completely changed.
In a nut shell we had people at the base of the trail making calls that negatively impacted the situation. These people (ambulance paramedic’s) didn’t fully know what was happening on the mountain and made decisions that in other circumstances could have ended in a death.
This explains why some of the agencies never showed up. The China Lake SAR was out of flight hours and the CHP pilots were not certified for a night drop of the basket. The effectiveness of our emergency services teams rest on those who are a part of it. Their level of knowledge and ability managing an event greatly impacts the outcome in the end.
As wheelers and riders, we need to be as self sufficient as possible in the case of an injury on the trail. We also should work with our forest services and emergency services to determine how we can improve the communications so we get the best possible outcome. I know the rangers around the shaver lake area are great, I have wheeled with them before and we have a good relationship with them. I wasn’t impressed by the officials in the Panamint Valley area at all except for the two CHP officers. My hat goes off them.

boating4fun93526

11-21-2009, 10:30 AM

:mad3 :mad3:Before you start bashing those "clueless" people maybe there are some things you need to take into consideration. I am a Jeeper that lives in the Owens Valley. I have traveled to Briggs, PV, Saline, Stripped Butte etc many times. I know that when "WE" choose to go to these places to get away we are on our own for an emergency. Do you know where most 911 cell calls are routed to in PV? NV, usually Elko. Do you know where the closest landline is from Ballarat? 24 miles to Trona. Are you aware that radio communication is sketchy to say the least in PV and DV depending on your location and that of the repeater. Do you know where the repeaters are located? Rogers Peak and Cerro Gordo. Did you know from Ballarat it's 48 miles to Ridgecrest the closest town with medical services? Lone Pine is 78 miles. Do you know the square miles the "clueless" people have to cover in Inyo County? 10,000 the second largest county in CA. Do you know that Fire and EMS are all volunteers in Inyo County, with the exception of Symons Ambulance Service in Bishop 138 miles from Ballarat and they are ground ambulance only. Do you know that there is only 1 volunteer Paramedic in Olancha 74 miles from Ballarat and 1 volunteer Paramedic in Lone Pine 78 miles. Do you know there is no air support in Inyo County except the USFS Helo in Independence during fire season. They can not fly at night and may be on an assignment somewhere else. Did you know that Search and Rescue people are volunteers and Search and Rescue is supported by donations. Have you considered the time it takes to drive from the bottom of South Park to Briggs Cabin? Approximately 1 1/2 hrs with the right 4x4 high clearance, during the day and being familiar with the road. So before you all go bashing the "clueless" people of the government entities that try and keep you safe and out of harms way, maybe you should get a "Clue".

hurleygo3

11-21-2009, 03:19 PM

I was out there and was listening on the radio. No matter what you have to say about getting a clue. It still took 9 1/2 hrs for her to get down the mountain. I don't care who's area it is. When there is an injured person and you go to the fire department that is less than 25 miles away and they tell you "sorry not our area". You would think at that point maybe they could tell you who or how to get someone out to help.:shaking:

The group that help the most(CHP) are the last people that should have been up there to help out.

I see this also your 1st post and you just joined. You sound like you are one of the dumb ass rangers trying to defend himself.

boating4fun93526

11-21-2009, 04:43 PM

No I am not a dumb ass ranger.

lttlbddy

11-21-2009, 06:39 PM

Good info thanks! It would be better with a little less emotion.

FYI - I can't remember exactly where the 911 call went but it wasn't Elko. Maybe Beatty?

:mad3 :mad3:Before you start bashing those "clueless" people maybe there are some things you need to take into consideration. I am a Jeeper that lives in the Owens Valley. I have traveled to Briggs, PV, Saline, Stripped Butte etc many times. I know that when "WE" choose to go to these places to get away we are on our own for an emergency. Do you know where most 911 cell calls are routed to in PV? NV, usually Elko. Do you know where the closest landline is from Ballarat? 24 miles to Trona. Are you aware that radio communication is sketchy to say the least in PV and DV depending on your location and that of the repeater. Do you know where the repeaters are located? Rogers Peak and Cerro Gordo. Did you know from Ballarat it's 48 miles to Ridgecrest the closest town with medical services? Lone Pine is 78 miles. Do you know the square miles the "clueless" people have to cover in Inyo County? 10,000 the second largest county in CA. Do you know that Fire and EMS are all volunteers in Inyo County, with the exception of Symons Ambulance Service in Bishop 138 miles from Ballarat and they are ground ambulance only. Do you know that there is only 1 volunteer Paramedic in Olancha 74 miles from Ballarat and 1 volunteer Paramedic in Lone Pine 78 miles. Do you know there is no air support in Inyo County except the USFS Helo in Independence during fire season. They can not fly at night and may be on an assignment somewhere else. Did you know that Search and Rescue people are volunteers and Search and Rescue is supported by donations. Have you considered the time it takes to drive from the bottom of South Park to Briggs Cabin? Approximately 1 1/2 hrs with the right 4x4 high clearance, during the day and being familiar with the road. So before you all go bashing the "clueless" people of the government entities that try and keep you safe and out of harms way, maybe you should get a "Clue".

cweed

11-22-2009, 08:43 AM

I was there at the bottom of the cliff for the 9.5 hours with the injured lady. I was right next to the CHP officers at the bottom of the cliff and listened to their radio’s and saw their frustration as the paramedic in the ambulance tried to call off the choppers more than twice. I was there when the two rangers looked over the cliff as we were carrying the injured on a make shift back board made from the back seat of the jeep. I asked them to help and they disappeared from site. I climbed up the hill to see them both sitting in their brand new JK staying warm. (yes, it was 34 (f) then). I was there and heard them tell us just to put her on top of our CJ to get her down the mountain, the CHP officers convinced them to put her in the back of their JK to keep her warm. The injured lady heard them bitching the whole way down about having to deal with this. I was there and saw the change in attitude and the paramedic get Pissy when she was told the women would be flown out by the CHP chopper paramedic and not sent to Ridgecrest. I was there and took part in the conversation when the head ranger asked if we were going back up that night to get the jeep out. The woman wasn’t even in the ambulance yet. I told him not tonight and that we would have it out by Monday.
I drove to Ridgecrest right after the chopper lifted off at 12:10 am to see how my son was doing, he was in the jeep when it went over. So you can all get as emotional as you like and talk all the shit you like YOU WERE NOT THERE and have no idea what took place. The two Rangers that stopped at the roll over site were completely unprofessional. The head paramedic on the ambulance was making calls based on getting paid to transport to Ridgecrest rather the safety of patient. Did I say that all rangers and all paramedics were clueless in my last posting No. So get emotional about it. I know I sure am, I was there and witnessed it first hand.

Let's just hope that you or one of your family members are never in that same spot and have witness and exoerience the samethe same thing as we did. Hoefully the group that comes to help you are better prepared.

navy-jeepster

11-22-2009, 09:24 AM

Boating4Fun

We understand the logistics of getting help to someone that is injured.
We understand that small towns rely on volunteers to run these services.

I do not know if the EMT in the ambulance was volunteer or paid, but to make the calls that she did put someones life in danger. Totally unsat in my book.
Thank god the two CHP officers were on the hill to relay info and keep the life flight helicopter there. I know this is a huge cost to the tax payers, but it is one of the things that we pay taxes for.

The unprofessional attitude of the BLM rangers is uncalled for. An email has been sent to the district office and their Washington office. I hope they are in the unemployment line soon increasing Inyo counties unemployment rate!

Todd

J-Bone

11-22-2009, 04:56 PM

When they run the Land Speed events at El Mirage, they are required to have a ambulance and EMT personnel. The racers and club members pay for it. If a dirt biker off riding away from our event needs help, "our" ambulance responds, and the event is delayed until the ambulance returns. It may need to go to Adelanto, and take 1 1/2 hours to return.

I guess that is the difference between a private and public employee......

navy-jeepster

11-22-2009, 06:15 PM

This is the response that I got from the district ranger for Ridgecrest.
As the rangers conduct was unprofessional and misrepresented BLM, I hope that they get fired.

Dear Todd

I'm sorry to hear about the accident and your report concening our BLM Rangers.

I am forwarding your report to my Chief Law Enforcement Ranger and requesting him to conduct a thorough review of this incident for any misconduct. And we will take appropriate action to address any misconduct.

I intend to report back to you as I learn more about the incident.

GreatWhiteShark

11-22-2009, 10:02 PM

Ironically, we were prepping the Pleasant side of the run about the time of the accident. While taking lunch on a high point, we intercepted a may-day CB call from a stranded loner TWENTY miles away over in the Argus range. Just a pure luck line-of-sight thing. So while others were learning of and responding to the South Park incident, we left that area to track down the stranded guy and winch him back onto the road. He had gone half over the edge backing down a steep shelf road over in Snow Canyon. Hadn't a clue where he was, but he carried a GPS and that was good enough.

.

That was me.

and i can not Thank You guys enough.

I decided to go off on my own ( bad decision ) little adventure.

3/4 up a very loose trail with sheer cliff to the right i realized i could not make it to the top and had to back down. I was almost down when my rig did a double hop off a loose rock and i ended up straddling the cliff with the passenger side hanging by a thread!

I tried cb channels and very quickly got some help. I think now that i may get my ham license after reading this Thread!:)

my saviors.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2774/4111561354_8c28d7fcb3_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2534/4110796231_4a208767b4_o.jpg

Holliday

11-24-2009, 08:18 AM

Life is more important than county lines. Action should have been taken and then worry about what line they crossed. Trona was the closest fire crew. One of the responders went to Trona Fire after making the initial call and they said, "nope can't go, out of our territory".
Maybe they were worried about leaving an entire town without fire and rescue protection while they were an hour away attending to one person. How big do you think the Trona fire department is?

navy-jeepster

11-24-2009, 10:50 AM

I know they have responded to Trona pass, even though it is out of their district.

4 years ago, my parents rolled a motor home on Trona pass.
They responded to that even after my parents were in the ambulance headed to Ridgecrest.

Todd

lttlbddy

11-24-2009, 11:31 AM

Was this on their way to PVD? What a small world Todd! I didn't know that was your parents.

Steve

I know they have responded to Trona pass, even though it is out of their district.

4 years ago, my parents rolled a motor home on Trona pass.
They responded to that even after my parents were in the ambulance headed to Ridgecrest.

Todd

navy-jeepster

11-25-2009, 05:59 AM

Steve

Yes it was.
I think we will never come to PVD again, as our family and friends have had no good luck while there when we come and visit the event.

Todd

navy-jeepster

11-25-2009, 06:00 AM

Who got the "Hard Luck" award at the presentation of awards?

None of us went down to the raffle after we got the jeep back to camp, as we were all beat.

Todd

bakerhab2003

11-25-2009, 08:48 AM

We give awards for most club participation and farthest traveled. We don't celebrate anyone's bad luck.

Helen Baker
CA4WDC
Celebrating 50 Years of 4 Wheeling
1959 - 2009

GreatWhiteShark

11-25-2009, 08:49 AM

Steve

Yes it was.
I think we will never come to PVD again, as our family and friends have had no good luck while there when we come and visit the event.

Todd

after everything that has been said here, i can understand why you feel this way.:)

cweed

11-25-2009, 11:56 AM

My family and I will go to PVD next year, there were a lot of things we wanted to see and wasn't able to make it due to the roll over. The experience at Ballarat and the trail up to the point of the roll was was great and we really enjoyed it.

The roll over was not good, trust me I know, but the roll over could have happened on many of the other trails we have been on in the past. Todd I know you and you or parents have had bad experiences and boy do I respect that. However for us, there are still hiostorical places we want to see and explore. Most likely will NOT go around chicken corner (with the wife or kids), rock or whatever it is, but really want to see the rest.

navy-jeepster

11-25-2009, 12:24 PM

Clay

We will probably go again, just to get that monkey off our back.
I know there is lots of history around Panamint, and that is one of the reasons we wheel those areas.

It will be fun to visit and relax over there.

Maybe a 4 day weekend in the new year for the club to go over that way again.

Todd

cweed

11-25-2009, 01:05 PM

Hey we'll talk. Did you knmow about the last chance canyon run we are putting together for after x-mas. It's just a day trip Paul's relatives are coming into town and he wants to expose them to wheeling.

I'll post something on our club site.

lttlbddy

11-25-2009, 03:07 PM

My family and I will go to PVD next year . . . really want to see the rest.

Clay

We will probably go again, just to get that monkey off our back.

That's the spirit! :beer:

If it's at the PVD Event, maybe we can get an extra day to show you some of the off the radar stuff. :smokin:

cweed

11-25-2009, 03:28 PM

That would be great. We all had a great time leading up to the roll over and left out a lot of the historical stuff we wanted to see. My wife and boy's really enjoyed what we did see. We need to go back and do all that stuff. Chicken rock, corner, what ever didn't look or seem bad, just happened to not work out with on jeep. We'll be there again. My boy, the one who was in the jeep when it rolled said he'll go jeeping again, but will walk behind the jeep when we are next to the cliffs.

Panamint Charlie

11-25-2009, 06:01 PM

Clay

We will probably go again, just to get that monkey off our back.
I know there is lots of history around Panamint, and that is one of the reasons we wheel those areas.

Todd

We've got a little shindig in the planning phase for Spring Break. Let me know if you're interested and I can get you more info.

cweed

11-26-2009, 09:15 AM

Please add me to your list. The wife and son's don't want to go cliff scaling but everything else is a go. She's still a little sensitive about shelf roads.

Panamint Charlie

11-26-2009, 11:55 AM

Please add me to your list. The wife and son's don't want to go cliff scaling but everything else is a go. She's still a little sensitive about shelf roads.

All are welcome. We get together all throughout the year for trail runs and hikes. Go to PV.com planning thread (http://panamintvalley.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) for more info on what's going on.

The big gatherings are the Spring Fling and Fall Hall. This year will be the fifth year for the Spring Fling. Dates are still pending but it looks like possibly April 9-11. I'll be there from April 2nd until possibly the 12th.

I don't want to call it an organized event, it's just a bunch of Desert Rats who started getting together for good times. Most times we decide what trails we want to run the night before while sitting around the fire. The number of vehicles vary from maybe five to ten. Two groups heading out into different areas is the norm.

We do a potluck on Saturday night and usually draw up to 60 folks max. A large percentage in attendance are locals. Their knowledge of the area beats anything that you'll read about in a guidebook.:smokin:

Charles

cweed

11-26-2009, 02:07 PM

Sounds like a great time. I'll mark my Calendar for the end of March and send you a PM to check on the status.

Thank you

Red Rubicon

11-29-2009, 01:43 PM

i was at the event again this year we didn't hear too much about he accident as we were gone all day on runs. It is a great event and the guides are great. We had our share of flops and broken axles.We ran Cummins Cut Off and Isham Canyon. I am surprised the rangers were not more help. Here is a link to my video and some Photos.I have the Red Rubicon.I was lucky as I didn't get stuck at all. Our guides had a broken axle and two flops so that was scary. Enjoy,

Kevin
YouTube - Panamint Valley Days 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljqO8Gor6Eo)
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/kmaedel/DSC09205.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/kmaedel/DSC09308.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/kmaedel/DSC09213.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/kmaedel/DSC09220.jpg
http://i406.photobucket.com/albums/pp144/kmaedel/DSC09260.jpg

broncdawg

11-29-2009, 08:22 PM

Choice pics of Isham and Defense Canyon obstacles. No mistaking them!

hurleygo3

11-30-2009, 01:14 PM