Just reading some of these threads about the sport & how it's exploded onto the 4x4 scene. Then, I start seeing comments about speculation on much larger purses to come, more sponsor $$$, more expensive rigs, etc, etc.

Can the sport survive this explosion though? Will it flame out like mud racing in the 80's or tough trucks in the 90's? Both of those sport grew too big, too fast. The money spent by racers, promoters, and sponsors was just too much to be sustained. It wasn't uncommon for the top prize to be $5,000 at a mud race TWENTY YEARS ago. And that was probably with a $40-50 entry fee. Next thing you know, there's dozens of sanctioning bodies, press coverage got stretched thin (instead of covering all of one series, they'd cover one event each for several sanctioning bodies), sponsor $$$ dried up, and the purse plummeted. The spectators still eat it up, and the racing is better than ever, but the rush to pour money into the sport is long gone.

Can RockCrawling avoid the same pitfalls? And how would you go about this?


TEX

it might be growing too fast but it will survive. Some series will make it, some will combine together, some will fail. I think fourwheeling overall has an image problem of it just being a bunch of redneck's tearing up the country side. But once people see rockcrawling for what it is they might change their attitude.
There are far too many parties involved for this not to survive.

- jack

I agree that it is already probably too big NOT to survive.

However, the very threads that you point to Tex are indicative of what I would call a general uneasiness that the big money that is starting to get involved is going to change it (if it has not already) into something other than what we thought it would be originally.

One only needs to compare the videos of the first Warn JV championship with what is going on now to realize that it is no longer rock 'crawling' and is now more like rock 'racing' or rock 'clawing'. Originally I think I personally thought that it would end up being very much like motorcycle trials events, and it is becoming a little more like those european hill climb events.

Personally, I don't care - whatever it has/is becoming, I find it highly entertaining, full of incredible skill and courageous driving, fantastic teamwork, and some of the best home built engineering one is likely to see this side of the early days of NASCAR and superbike racing. It is just a plain hoot to watch, no matter if it resembles what I personally do in the rocks or consider 'rock crawling' or not.

PLUS I think it is both changing the way wheelers are viewed, and making wheeling more popular, both things which are necessary if we are ever to turn the tide against the trail closures.

So I'm all for it, think it will survive without a doubt, but have given up hope that we the enthusiasts are actually in control of it any longer - it's in the hands of business now, like it or not.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by Daniel
too much money...
too pretty...

too fast???

Ask big rich if this is a bad thing?

Point being that if too much is spent NOW, who's gonna continue to spend it later? There's only so much $$$ the sponsors have to spend. Right now, they only have a few options on where to spend it. As those options grow, the money will get spread thinner & thinner. And don't think for a moment that interest in the sport will continue to grow at an exponential rate. The peak may be decades down the road. Or, we may have already hit it & don't realize it.

Remember, it's the bright stars that often burn out. Anyone remember Peter Frampton? :p

I'm not saying it WILL happen, and I certainly don't HOPE for it to happen. But, it HAS happened to mud racing & tough trucks. Monsters too for that matter. And countless other non-4wd types of motorsports. All of these sports survived, but they took a lot of lumps, and not all of them came out for the better. Monster trucks for example have reached the point where it's no longer economically responsible to invest in new technology. The giant prize purses they once had are GONE & in their place are paid "performances" where everyone gets an equal cut. So, nobody even makes an attempt to get FASTER anymore.

This is a trap that has snared lots of other sports before. And if things aren't properly planned, it will happen to RockCrawling. I've been directly involved in competition 4wd motorsports for 15 years. I see folks already making mistakes in this sport that I've seen before in others. And I think it would be a good idea for everyone to learn from these past mistakes so they don't repeat them in this sport.


TEX

Originally posted by morpheus
it might be growing too fast but it will survive.

Just for the record, I'm sure it will survive in one form or another. I just think it's important for folks to use a little caution to make sure it doesn't explode to the point that everyone burns out on it & it becomes back-page news (as has happened to other very entertaining forms of motorsports).

Part of the appeal of this sport now is the fact that it's new, and it's growing. What happens when the newness is gone & the growth has tapered off? That's a question that the "powers that be" should be planning to address NOW, rather than waiting until that sorts itself out.

TEX

You think NASCAR grew "too big too fast" also? They don't seem to have any trouble finding sponsorship money, etc. The purses don't seem that outrageous to me, especially considering the expense incurred participating in these events.

Originally posted by 84 SheepDog
You think NASCAR grew "too big too fast" also? They don't seem to have any trouble finding sponsorship money, etc. The purses don't seem that outrageous to me, especially considering the expense incurred participating in these events.

NASCAR took 50 years to get to where it is today. So no, I don't think it grew too fast :p But, this ain't NASCAR. Who won the last BAJA 1000? 15 years ago, everyone with a 4wd could have answered that question. Today, I have no friggin' clue.

TEX

Originally posted by TEX


NASCAR took 50 years to get to where it is today. So no, I don't think it grew too fast :p But, this ain't NASCAR. Who won the last BAJA 1000? 15 years ago, everyone with a 4wd could have answered that question. Today, I have no friggin' clue.

TEX

Who won the Daytona 500 --- 15 years ago?:flipoff2:

Originally posted by 84 SheepDog


Who won the Daytona 500 --- 15 years ago?:flipoff2:

I think you misread the question.

But, if you want to go that direction ;)

I'd be willing to bet that more people can answer "Who won the 1987 Daytona 500?" than "Who won THIS YEAR'S Baja 1000?".


Baja got big, it got huge, it got overexposed, people got bored, it shrank. The trucks today are faster than ever, and 99% of the people in the 4wd community have no idea who the big "stars" are in that sport. Will it be like that with Rock Crawling in 15 years? Better buggies, but nobody pays any attention to them? I hope not. But, don't think for a second that it couldn't happen.

And your NASCAR comparison actually brings up another point. This sport will NEVER be that big. The simple fact is that what happens on the rocks will NEVER translate as well to TV as cars going 200MPH inches apart. There will NEVER be 200,000 on-hand spectators for a rock-crawl. And the drivers will never become "household" names. Within the 4wd community? Perhaps. In the U.S. in general? Nope. Even NHRA with their 300MPH blasts down the track can't capture the same audience as NASCAR despite the fact that the on-site experience of an NHRA event is truely unequalled in the World of competition motorsports. There is NOTHING like it, and yet you don't see it on NBC every Sunday afternoon despite the millions of sponsor dollars that have gone into that sport.

Oh, and for the record, even NASCAR is beginning to experience some growing pains. We've seen several unsponsored cars in Winston Cup events so far this year. The cost of sponsoring a team has gotten too high for many would-be advertisers. If they're not at their ceiling, they're getting close.

TEX

Originally posted by 84 SheepDog


Who won the Daytona 500 --- 15 years ago?:flipoff2:

Bill Elliot, in a Ford. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by TEX


I think you misread the question.

But, if you want to go that direction ;)

I'd be willing to bet that more people can answer "Who won the 1987 Daytona 500?" than "Who won THIS YEAR'S Baja 1000?".


Baja got big, it got huge, it got overexposed, people got bored, it shrank. The trucks today are faster than ever, and 99% of the people in the 4wd community have no idea who the big "stars" are in that sport. Will it be like that with Rock Crawling in 15 years? Better buggies, but nobody pays any attention to them? I hope not. But, don't think for a second that it couldn't happen.

And your NASCAR comparison actually brings up another point. This sport will NEVER be that big. The simple fact is that what happens on the rocks will NEVER translate as well to TV as cars going 200MPH inches apart. There will NEVER be 200,000 on-hand spectators for a rock-crawl. And the drivers will never become "household" names. Within the 4wd community? Perhaps. In the U.S. in general? Nope. Even NHRA with their 300MPH blasts down the track can't capture the same audience as NASCAR despite the fact that the on-site experience of an NHRA event is truely unequalled in the World of competition motorsports. There is NOTHING like it, and yet you don't see it on NBC every Sunday afternoon despite the millions of sponsor dollars that have gone into that sport.

Oh, and for the record, even NASCAR is beginning to experience some growing pains. We've seen several unsponsored cars in Winston Cup events so far this year. The cost of sponsoring a team has gotten too high for many would-be advertisers. If they're not at their ceiling, they're getting close.

TEX

My point is that rockcrawling isn't that big in relation to other types of motorsports and that the purses are tiny in comparison. So I don't get the point of your post....you are right.

Originally posted by 84 SheepDog


My point is that rockcrawling isn't that big in relation to other types of motorsports and that the purses are tiny in comparison.

True, but so is the target audience & the pool of available sponsors.

For example, let's do a direct comparison. At a big Rock Crawl event, there might be 8,000 spectators. For a good NASCAR race, there might be 8,000,000 spectators between TV & on-site.

That means roughly 1,000 TIMES as many people might be watching NASCAR compared to RCCA. Now, a big NASCAR purse would be $4,000,000. So, let's say that because NASCAR has 1,000 times the number of spectators, it should have 1,000 times the purse. Were we to take that literally, the purse for RCCA should therefore be about $4,000 total & about $150 to $200 for the winner.

Now, that's not at all what I'm SUGGESTING be done. But, I think the comparison might put things in perspective. That's how small this sport really is in the grand scheme of things. All these dreams of it becoming something bigger are great, it probably will continue to grow for awhile. Dreams of it becoming HUGE are just that, dreams. And I think it's important that folks don't start writing checks with these HUGE dreams in their heads.

So I don't get the point of your post....you are right.

My point was this. 15 years ago, Baja was huge. If today were 1987, you & I, and everyone on this board would know the names of numerous drivers in numerous classes. We'd think of them as "stars". We'd be begging for results to be posted within minutes of the race being complete (and updates DURING the race). The races are no less interesting today. But, the casual fan grew tired of it. And that type of racing is not something we pay that much attention to anymore.

And it's my hope that by waving a few red flags NOW, folks can keep Rock Crawling from heading down that same path that Baja, Mud Racing, Tough Trucks, etc have all ALREADY been down.

TEX

gotta say it, monster trucks are the WWF of motorsports, God Puuuleeeeeese let rock crawling become ANYTHING but that!

I have to agree with Tex that I was a little surprised when I read the prize money that went with it. I remember when I was road racing, we were getting similar attendance, and the prize for winning an event was no more than 500$.

However, I think what is driving the sport is the SATURATION that rock crawling gets in the 4wd press. Let's face it, at one time all the rags and what little TV coverage that there was showed mud racing and monster trucks. You have to look pretty hard today to see that kind of stuff, you pick up a magazine or see anything on TV and 75%+ of it is about rock crawling. As a result, someone advertising in a rock crawling event is much more likely to actually get magazine and internet coverage than they would be perhaps in any other motor sport.

Advertisers and sponsors do not throw cash around - they do it because they think there is a payoff for them (as I'm sure you know). Right now I think there is a payoff for them (with payouts at this level) only because in the current situation someone like SUMMIT is all but guaranteed to get into the minds of 75%+ of the wheeling market, because right now rock crawling is SO 'in' with that market segment.

You are right in wondering if that level of interest is sustainable - and THAT is the question which all these 'where are the rules taking us' revolve around, or SHOULD revolve around. Right now it seems to me that ARCA and others like them are expending a lot of effort to attract the 'casual' spectator, who seems mostly interested in carnage. It seems to me that such spectators are relatively fair weather in nature, and would not hold the same kind of loyalty as more 'experienced' wheelers. To me this means you need a larger pool of them to start with, because you cannot count on them coming back again and again. The flip side of that of course is that there probably are not enough 'experienced' wheelers to drive the sport at the level that ARCA seems to want to drive it at. So is this stratedgy of going for quantity spectators rather than quality spectators going to ensure the long term viability of the sport? I don't know.

To me it seems like they are walking a very fine line right now, where they are attempting to have enough carnage to attract casual spectators, with enough finesse to keep the experienced wheelers loyal. I personally think they are succeeding at that right now, but it could easily go off the tracks, simply because the line they are trying to walk is so narrow.

again just a spectator's opinion

I did not read each line of this post, as I have only a short time until I start teching in copmpetitors for our finals event at Donner Ski Ranch (shameless plug), but I'll give you perspective and what I'm trying to achieve.

First the sport has been being built the the top down, that's ok in the short term to get everyone interested. But know is the time to start building from the ground up, he3nce CalROCS plans for regional events in as many places that are interested, got to get the new blood into the sport in a more cost effective, but well run manner.

I'll expand on this, if asked, later. For now IT'S SHOW TIME!!!! :D

Rich

Originally posted by TEX

I'm not saying it WILL happen, and I certainly don't HOPE for it to happen. But, it HAS happened to mud racing & tough trucks. Monsters too for that matter. And countless other non-4wd types of motorsports. All of these sports survived, but they took a lot of lumps, and not all of them came out for the better. Monster trucks for example have reached the point where it's no longer economically responsible to invest in new technology. The giant prize purses they once had are GONE & in their place are paid "performances" where everyone gets an equal cut. So, nobody even makes an attempt to get FASTER anymore.

TEX

Monster trucks were not originated as a competition vehicle. They were an exhibition-driven idea from the very start. The 'sport' of monster truck racing was fabricated AROUND the trucks. The 'sport' that was chosen was a drag race.

Mud-racing is, when you get down to it, just a highly-specialized and somewhat boring form of drag racing. There's only so much to see in 200ft. Since there is already a top sanctioning body in drag-racing, the money and technology would NEVER have been put forward to mud-dragging.

NASCAR and NHRA survive because the control factors are tightly regulated. Everyone races on the same track in NASCAR. There is lane selection in NHRA, and that's critical, but the technology, weather condition, saftey regs etc, are as tightly controlled as in any mature motor-sport. This puts the focus and emphasis on drivers and support teams, and that's where the competition takes place. That's what makes possible an entire drag-racing event where the finishing times fall within 1/10 of a second of each other, or a 500 mile race where the top five finishers reach the finish line within 2 seconds of each other.

NASCAR has been finished as a development sport for 20 years now. I think Bill Elliot still holds the top speed record at Talladega. The cars got too fast to still be held within the envelope of 'stock' car racing, and restrictions were put in place. The manufacturers aren't in competition anymore, because of the restrictions. Any car, Dodge, Ford, Chevy, Pontiac, is more than capable of running top speeds.

Rock-crawling-racing is a development sport. That is it's attraction to me. As soon as the regulations come down to control arm length and material, engine restrictions, axle ratios, tire size etc etc, I will be done watching it.

The wild card is the WRC and Baja. The technology is not quite as restricted as the successful American sports, and they're still interesting. But they'll never be as popular here, and the forces driving them will never push them past the stage where mud-dragging, sand drags and monster trucks stalled.

Like you said, Americans want to watch two guys ramming each other at 200mph. Only a few of us are interested in engineering technology, and it's application. And frankly, I'm only interested in it as 'I' could possibly apply it. As soon as it takes a $100,000 sponsorship drop to even START a team, I'm done being interested in rock-crawling.

I mean, I don't care that Clifford and Shaffer scaled such and such an obstacle at zero points or in 3.4 seconds. So what. I care that a couple of regular guys took technology THAT I CAN IMPLEMENT and won a racing series.

So in sum, I don't see monster trucks or mud-drags as having the MERIT to become successful. There wasn't anything there original or compelling in a competition sense that wasn't already done. Baja certainly has merit, but doesn't fit the American palate quite as well as an analagous sport, WRC, fits the European.

Rockcrawling will fall into that category. The American public wants a convenient, 3 hour football game or WC race. I will probably be hated by all the nascent promoters and racers here, but that's the facts.

Mud drags, Monster trucks, and now RC are all bubble sports, just like the stock market. They'll get over-invested then fall flat when the sponsors realize there's only so much to go around. Fine by me, I like RC as a home-brew type of sport. Not so hot for you top competitors, so I'm sorry for saying it that way. But those are the facts as I see them.

Originally posted by rusted
Mud-racing is, when you get down to it, just a highly-specialized and somewhat boring form of drag racing.

You've obviously never been to a GOOD mud race if ya think it's boring :p

Most of the rest of what you say is pretty good, except SOMEWHAT for the development part. RC really hasn't "given" us a whole lot of new technology (some yes, not as much as one would think though). It has however brought some really old tech back to the forefront & pushed it into new markets, & that's probably just as significant.

TEX

i agree with most of what was said here, itas also one of the main reasons im chooseing to start building harleys instead doing alot of offroad stuff. although thats where my product base is going to start.

Originally posted by TEX
Even NHRA with their 300MPH blasts down the track can't capture the same audience as NASCAR despite the fact that the on-site experience of an NHRA event is truely unequalled in the World of competition motorsports. There is NOTHING like it, and yet you don't see it on NBC every Sunday afternoon despite the millions of sponsor dollars that have gone into that sport.

TEX

It is somewhat sad that NHRA is stuck on cable. Problem as we all know is too much down-time between races, so it won't work as a live TV event. No way to fix that except for the teams to have a new car for each round. You're right though, nothing like Nitro!

And personally I think NASCAR sold their soul when they signed that big TV contract a couple of years ago. But that's just one mans opinion.

Originally posted by 85TrailToy


It is somewhat sad that NHRA is stuck on cable. Problem as we all know is too much down-time between races, so it won't work as a live TV event.

I think that's a very valid point & it's an issue that we in the mud racing World also face. I would suspect the same about Rock Crawling. The entire event would need to be edited down into a single 1-hour broadcast, or 2 30-minute segments (one for each class).

TEX

Originally posted by TEX


You've obviously never been to a GOOD mud race if ya think it's boring :p

Most of the rest of what you say is pretty good, except SOMEWHAT for the development part. RC really hasn't "given" us a whole lot of new technology (some yes, not as much as one would think though). It has however brought some really old tech back to the forefront & pushed it into new markets, & that's probably just as significant.

TEX

I've never been to a MISSOURI mud race, I know you guys get it down there.

While RC hasn't given us a lot of new tech, the applications are unique. That's what makes it fun and affordable for po' folk like me.

Originally posted by rusted
While RC hasn't given us a lot of new tech, the applications are unique. That's what makes it fun and affordable for po' folk like me.

That & the fact that folks are starting to mass-produce stuff for those of us who aren't up to engineering it ourselves. I think that's one of the main things we're seeing today is schit that we HAD to make ourselves for mud racing becoming available as "off the shelf" parts, in large part due to the current popularity of rock crawling.

TEX

Originally posted by rusted


I've never been to a MISSOURI mud race, I know you guys get it down there.

Oh, as a side note, some of the real heavy hitters I get down here come from Michigan. But, none of them race up there because they don't have much competition & also because many of the events are kinda "outlaw" races that aren't always setup with fairness & safety in mind. We'd like to come do a good one up there, and even tossed around the idea of going indoors at Flint over the Winter.

TEX

Rusted says:Only a few of us are interested in engineering technology, and it's application. And frankly, I'm only interested in it as 'I' could possibly apply it. As soon as it takes a $100,000 sponsorship drop to even START a team, I'm done being interested in rock-crawling.
I mean, I don't care that Clifford and Shaffer scaled such and such an obstacle at zero points or in 3.4 seconds. So what. I care that a couple of regular guys took technology THAT I CAN IMPLEMENT and won a racing series.

I think this is a very important point and may be a key element in determining whether or not competitive rock crawling survives. Too much $$ and too much technology can easily spoil this sport.
One of the biggest appeals for me when crawling competitions began a few years ago was the fact that Joe Gearhead could build a rig in his driveway, take it out to a competition and compete successfully with someone like Walker Evans who had major sponsorship funding, a team of mechanics and fabricators, and years of driving experience. Just a few years ago this was truly an amateur sport with a fairly level playing field.
I'm afraid that as we continue to increase the difficulty of the courses, we will REQUIRE rigs to be lighter, stronger, more powerful, and more agile. At the same time, the costs associated with building a truck that can compete successfully will prevent the amateur competitor from participating. When rock crawling evolves to a sport comprised of professional teams with big sponsorship money using technology that I will never be able to apply to my own fourwheeling, I will no longer be interested. The sport is already heading in this direction.:(
-ckp

in a word " yes"


and my point of view is not based so much on the actuall competition but on the general public it seems to dragging with it. it is making leisure rock crawling so popular that there seems to be more people than trails.


take the hammers for example. 3 years ago wrecking ball was a very dificult trail. a year and half ago i made a new line up a waterfall. today wrecking ball is all but paved and the 6 foot waterfall that was hard to climb is stacked with 3 feet of rocks making it possible in even a stock rig. bottom line is that there are to many people on trails that they are not equiped for so they make the trails easyer. in my opinion that is because the sport grew to fast. we should be making trails harder not easer.

Originally posted by camo
in a word " yes"


and my point of view is not based so much on the actuall competition but on the general public it seems to dragging with it. it is making leisure rock crawling so popular that there seems to be more people than trails.


take the hammers for example. 3 years ago wrecking ball was a very dificult trail. a year and half ago i made a new line up a waterfall. today wrecking ball is all but paved and the 6 foot waterfall that was hard to climb is stacked with 3 feet of rocks making it possible in even a stock rig. bottom line is that there are to many people on trails that they are not equiped for so they make the trails easyer. in my opinion that is because the sport grew to fast. we should be making trails harder not easer.

I think that is due more to the growing popularity of SUVs than rock crawling.

Here in the east, we not only have the growth in the number of people driving 4 wheel drive vehicles, but the growth of ATVs has also been incredible, yet the number of trails available continues to shrink.

Originally posted by camo
in a word " yes"



today wrecking ball is all but paved and the 6 foot waterfall that was hard to climb is stacked with 3 feet of rocks making it possible in even a stock rig.

camo, maybe instead of (or in addition to) trail cleanups you guys should have real 'cleanups'! Go out and remove all or most of the loose rocks that are paving the bad-ass trails. If there's not enough 'paving' rocks close to the obstacles it will keep out the posers.:D

Originally posted by camo
in a word " yes"...


I'm with Camo on this one. I live in northern MN where wheelers are still few and far-between, but growing more numerous by the week. I'm constantly hearing about all the problems on trails out West (i.e. too many people, unprepared people, inexperienced people, erosion, trail-blazing, trail closures) and I think to myself, That's gonna be Minnesota 5 or 10 years from now...

It probably won't win me any friends around here, but I'm of the opinion that the growth of 4-wheeling from what used to be a pastime into a "sport" is causing more problems than it is solving. With that growth comes exposure which effectively paints a big, red bullseye on 4-wheelers as a whole.

We've become a target. A target for the Green Nazis. We used to be beneath their radar, but all that's changing. Will there still be trails around in 10 or 20 years for my children to enjoy? I don't know.

My only hope is that the current rock crawling fad passes quickly so we can drop off the Greenies' radar. Just like what happened to Baja. Then maybe this "sport" can return to being what it was: a bunch of rednecks tearing up the countryside.

That's what I think,
Jake

i'm with you guys.......instead of having a trail cleanup, have a paver throwout day!!!! walk to trails and get rid of a lot of the pavers that people have thrown down. i know it's hard to ger rid of all of them....but what you guys are describing about 6 foot ledges built up is pathetic....ditch that crap!!!! i've only been part of the paragon crew for a short shile.....but one of the trails that used to be harder, vodoo, is now looking quite easy at some parts!!! we noticed it the other day! trails can change on thier own due to erosion and buggies throwing rocks...but at ome point you gotta tell people to run easier trails and work up to the harder stuff!!! it's what it's all about....the first time i ran at the park i ran the easiest trail i could find....and it wasn't till flexysammy made me run a harder trail that i ended up on one. i was freaked out!!! to this day i never step over my skills, there are tons of harder trails for me to run in the park...even trails that my TJ would go through....but i won't......CAUSE I CAN'T DRIVE THAT WELL YET!!!! but when i do.....bring spares!!! hehe!! later, riggs

Originally posted by Jakesteramalamajama


drop off the Greenies' radar. Just like what happened to Baja. Then maybe this "sport" can return to being what it was: a bunch of rednecks tearing up the countryside.

That's what I think,
Jake

FWIW, the Baja racing never fell off the Green-dar.. they have to get leases/permits from the BLM to have races, and the Greens file lawsuits to stop it all the time.. then when a race does happen, the greens are out policing the race course and noting any "damage" or violations of the permit agreement.. blah blah.

There was a post recently about a land owner in .. Florida?.. that was allowing mud-bogs on his private property.. and they shut him down.

His OWN property!

Originally posted by tsm1mt
There was a post recently about a land owner in .. Florida?.. that was allowing mud-bogs on his private property.. and they shut him down.

His OWN property!

Lot of times they won't even take the greeny angle on something like that, but rather approach from a zoning/permit angle. We had a guy putting on all kinds of events on his farm around here & ONE neighbor bitched. They shut him down. He's allowed to have "parties", but not events where anyone pays to get in. And since anything he does costs money, he can't justify even doing stuff for "fun" anymore, much less real competitions.

TEX

Yes I do think it has grown too fast. I also think it the Internet has a lot to do with the sport continuing to grow. People like Big Rich can get the word out about events alot easier and cheaper than before.

I agree with Camo that there is way too many people on the trails and paving them. Alot of this is due to exposure not only from the competitions but from Company's like chrysler naming a Jeep after the Rubicon. Great now all these mall wheelers will want to find out what the trail is like that their pretty little Jeep is named after! :rolleyes:

Why not go to some of the easier trails and remove rocks to make them harder? (Oh the horror that would be like a rock falling into the box and making it too hard for some people! :rolleyes: )

Originally posted by Chet
...(Oh the horror that would be like a rock falling into the box and making it too hard for some people! :rolleyes: )

I beleive that has happened before, but it also included a stick or two of dynamite and a large boulder above the box.

So long as the competing vehicles maintain the body panels of a stock vehicle, then "Average Joe" and I will stay interested. Once most of the vehicles have become unrecognizable rock buggies, it will lose a lot of interest. This due to the fact that the primary appeal of the sport is the vehicles them selves. Most of the vehicles were originally a stock production vehicle. The pipe dream that jos schmo could take his cj-7 or Toyota pickup and build a rock crawler was not impossible. I beleive that has a lot to do with the appeal of this sport.

It has been mentioned before, but I will reiterate, w/o lots of $$$$ and a big sponsor, you can't compete in Nascar. But with a vehicle, a welder, knowledge, and a little money, you can compete quite well in RCAA, CalROCS etc...

A good example is the Slo-crawler Turtle. He was hanging out at the bender camp before the RCAA finals. This guy reportedly built this complicated prototype airbag suspension vehicle in his driveway with his own pipe bender and a Mig welder. And the rig was awesome! As soon as that type of guy can't afford to compete, the sport will begin to slide. Lets just hope it stays on the right track.

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
I agree that it is already probably too big NOT to survive.

One only needs to compare the videos of the first Warn JV championship with what is going on now to realize that it is no longer rock 'crawling' and is now more like rock 'racing' or rock 'clawing'.

PLUS I think it is both changing the way wheelers are viewed, and making wheeling more popular, both things which are necessary if we are ever to turn the tide against the trail closures.


Just my opinion.

Better yet compare it to the 1st Las Cruces in 98. Neat stockers compared to today's buggies.

I love rock crawling competitions, but I am not sure the are good for keeping the trails open. Lots of people leaving all sorts of waste and trampling, parking and driving over vegitation. We even make commercial videos that are readily available to the greenies. Like the Big Rock 1999 Farmington video when Steve Rumore tried to run over a tree so he wouldn't get a backing penalty. Don't know what the solution to the spectator problem is. Maybe use some sort of shuttle bus arrangement to get them in to the event and have lots and lots of trash barrels and porta potties. The shuttle bus thing would probably make more money for the promoters too since that would make it more difficult possibly for non-paying spectators to get in.

I agree with Tex on his analogies between what happened to desert racing, mud racing, monster trucks, etc. I too think this could happen to rock crawling and maybe it is a good thing - maybe we don’t need all the hordes of non-hardcore spectators. Yes, everyone seems to be trying to emulate a rock buggy - just got the new copy of 4 Wheel & Off Road yesterday and looked at their coverage of their “Ultimate Adventure” and it looked like approximately 70-80% of the approximately 27 vehicles were trying to emulate rock crawlers. Most look no more like they should be driven on public highways than does a Florida swamp buggy.

Yes, I believe the media is over saturating rock crawling! Yes, I too believe that there will be a down turn in interest in the “sport” and I think Tex is right on the mark to be thinking about the future. Organizers, sponsors and competitors need to be planning for the future - it’s probably not too difficult to predict reasonably closely the time it will take to reach saturation and start declining with a simple mathematical model built with data from other motor sports.

Originally posted by Spank



A good example is the Slo-crawler Turtle. He was hanging out at the bender camp before the RCAA finals. This guy reportedly built this complicated prototype airbag suspension vehicle in his driveway with his own pipe bender and a Mig welder. And the rig was awesome! As soon as that type of guy can't afford to compete, the sport will begin to slide. Lets just hope it stays on the right track.

I think you're talking about John Hall. FYI

one note on John hall and the Slo-Crawler turtle. Tha rig is just a copy of a scorpion, but based on a toy minitruck axle. I think the rig is okay, it's not the best out there, but certainly not the worst. What makes their team place as well as they do is the spotter. That guy is really good, and he yells at John and makes John listen to him and do what he wants John to do, even when John gets pissy and questions his judgement. That is the reason that they place as well as they do.

Even though it may get big, then disappear, it will still be fun. Just like going through a mud hole---still fun, driving up on a junk car---still fun, being able to drive over curbs at the mall because you are too lazy to back out-----still fun (dont laugh, I know you FAWKERS do it, too). having a big ass truck at a stop light and a bus load of kids pulls up and everyone of them (white, black brown etc) ewwws and ahhhs and waves---still fun.

So, it doesnt matter to me. Hell, I am about five years behind most people anyway!!!!


rob

Yes - but who knows what tomorrow will bring. I'm all for the here and now. There is very little that can be done to control seemingly rapid growth. Lets just enjoy it the best we can and take on the added responsibility of self policing popular trails.

Originally posted by nobody20
I agree with Tex on his analogies between what happened to desert racing, mud racing, monster trucks, etc. I too think this could happen to rock crawling and maybe it is a good thing - maybe we don’t need all the hordes of non-hardcore spectators.

Interesting concept. Glad to see some diversity of opinion on this one :)


TEX

First off i want to say somthing about monster Trucks... i love to watch them roll over and I don't really care who wins and yes it has lost some of its flare but IT ain't dead......... the monster trucks have SOLDOUT the Georgia Dome for the past 4 years ....... and will probably sell out this year..... that is 80,000+ people.... the only place in Atlanta that holds more people is the Atlanta motor speedway......

I personally agree with Tex...... i don't think the sport will last all tooooooo long...... because there is no way of getting a high volume of people into to watch the sport and there only coverage is really in the magizines..... unless ur cable provider gets you 4x4TV which comes on like once aweek...... but in my point of view there just isn't enough of an audiance to keep the sport rolling...... the sport rigs are built and funded (for the most part) by common folks...... they can't continue to break over and over again......

I think the key to keep rockcrawling Alive is to get it put on National Television for more and more audiance..... then the sponsers pocket will become MUCH deeper alowing more common people......

When it takes an average joe $100,000- $150,000 to start rockcrawling..... the sport is goin down hill. I Belive for $30,000 you could build a real good vehicle and once your driving ability caught up with your vehicle's abiltiy you would be great contender.......


about trail paving.... in the east where there is more dirt around the rocks the dirt gets erroded makeing old easy trails harder and harder as time goes by....... in the west you can stack rocks and they will stay there much easier over time.......

rockcrawling just like mudracing and monster trucks and tough trucks....... will never die...... but for it to grow to its most optimum state and continue to grow and contine to expand its markets......... It will take some really good managment....... I belive it is possible to have rock racing as a mini nascar sport..... where there are 43 teams that travel around the US in semi's with shops built in..... but the key....... I belive is more TV coverage....... I know theres thousands of people in the east that would watch cal rocs and rrca.... if it were put on National TV........ If the rockcrawling world can do this.... I think they will have more of a chance to survive.....

I don't know where the sport is heading, but I hope to continue to be a part of it! I love it, and hope that it continues far into the future.

As far as the average guy being able to compete, they definitely can! Let's look at the top 5 finishers in the pro mod class in CalROCS this weekend:

1st: Chris Durham - This rig is completely low budget. $15k or less into this rig.

2nd: Mike Shaffer - It may look pretty, but there's less than the price of a stock Jeep TJ into this rig.

3rd: Jason Bunch - This rig has a Dana 30 and a Dana 44 in it! Enough said. :p

4th: Jay Standish - Rig was built by SNORT. It can't be that good! :laughing: Just kidding guys!

5th: Troy Faber - Finally a high dollar rig. Avalanche Sniper @ 40+k. Great rig, great driver, but beat by lower dollar rigs.

Some people were talking about John Hall, in his homemade "Toy" Scorpion. He built it in his driveway with a welder, and a HARBOR FREIGHT bender. He made it into the top 9 this weekend.....

And if you want to get even lower budget, there is the stock/mod class. People like Ron Kirby and Jeff Mello are competiing in this class sucessfully with super low budget trail rigs.

I just get tired of people saying that they can't compete because of all the "high dollar" rigs out there. Get yourself a rig, practice, practice some more, go out to a competition, get your ass kicked, come back again, and kick some ass, keep kicking ass, get sponsored to cover travel costs, and have fun!

Originally posted by Lance
I just get tired of people saying that they can't compete because of all the "high dollar" rigs out there. Get yourself a rig, practice, practice some more, go out to a competition, get your ass kicked, come back again, and kick some ass

That would be too easy. Some folks would rather stand around & bitch about the fact that they can't win & have something to blame it on than to actually take the effort needed to become competitive themselves.

We have the same crap in mud racing. Guys bitch about the high dollar engines in Super Stock these days. FAWK! There's 2 classes below that, drop down a tire size, put the mufflers back on & quityerbitchin!

Problem is everyone wants to build it "THEIR WAY" whether that makes them competitive or not. And then when they have to run against someone who actually did their homework, "it's not fair" WHAAAAAAAAAA! Can't have a class for every truck.

TEX

Originally posted by Lance
I don't know where the sport is heading, but I hope to continue to be a part of it! I love it, and hope that it continues far into the future.

I just get tired of people saying that they can't compete because of all the "high dollar" rigs out there.

Yep.

If you can't compete because of money for a rig/repairs, become a good spotter and get invited to all the events by people who can afford it :D

I've been wheelin since I could drool on myself, (I still do.) I do a lot of what some people call hardcore. I saw my first event when ARCA did Wrecking Ball a couple of years back. I watched for about an hour and left to go do sledge. I didn't like that the competitors were just throttling through the course with little finesse and lots of throttle. It was a flogging and attrition contest.

I went back last weekend to JV and was utterly impressed. There were a lot of rigs that were not out of 'my league' and the competition was great. There were good drivers and bad, good spotters and bad. I think that some of the rules have changed enough to create a great competition. The trickle down effect of technology or re-building with old technology has been significant. I like the way the sport is going and believe that as long as people are wheeling, the competitions and sponsors will be there.

not fast enough, they dont show it on sports center yet.:D

I tried readign most of all the post to this thread. You all are makign good points, Just an little fact. The guy who won the arca points the first year an now has won the erocc points this year has long been apart of the "kiss" keep it simple stupid, principle. Chris Durham, sorry ifmisspelled. yes he has an tube rig but it is on an matkins frame an just off shelve leaf springs. I think if the sanctioning bodies will get stories an results of the competitions to the newspapers in the area. Like I livein Clinton Tn. I would liek to read an article about the erocc competiotions in mondays sports page. i think if more people knew about the sport maybe more would buid rigs an compete or at least go to watch. Ienjoy watching, I know right now can afford to build an rig to run in the comps but might one day.

I don't know that its growing too big too fast, but I do know that as of late, because of big dogs in the rockcrawling world, everyone and thier mother seems to think 60 front and 14 bolts are needed for EVERY application, when I couldn't disagree more. Let the flaming begin, but Im happy with my D30/8.8 setup, and I've done some pretty fun trails. I may not be a competition rock crawler, but I have fun and isn't that always what matters? FLAME SUIT ON.
Scott

i dont think so it is doing good here on the east side of the country:cool:

Im with ya on that Ketchup Dog, I too have a D 30, 8.8 combo and run 37" MT'Rs. Ive run quite a few trails out here that people say "can't be done with a dana 30" with no problems at all(knocking on wood:D ) I just know when to stop and try a different line, etc... And when I start breaking 760's every weekend, then Ill think about a 60:flipoff2:

one thing regarding the baja 1000 winner of 15 years ago
commentary.

I think the partial reason the baja races sort-of died off,

were, well, due to the econazis............ they've killed the

parker 400, the mint 400, the baja 1000 for many years,

etc.... they also had the barstow to vegas race.....

--rockcrawling comps will also go through their own growing

pains......

--I like the fact that even with all the cash/backing/sponsorship

that walker evans has going, he still gets beat by the homeboys.


--Sherpa

hey, did walker evans used-to race offroad-? lol

Originally posted by Lance
I just get tired of people saying that they can't compete because of all the "high dollar" rigs out there. Get yourself a rig, practice, practice some more, go out to a competition, get your ass kicked, come back again, and kick some ass, keep kicking ass, get sponsored to cover travel costs, and have fun!

BRAVO! Well said Lance.

This was my first year competing, and I have to say I'm hooked. And I did it for less than 99% of the guys out there. I picked up a wrecked and broken '91 YJ, added a set of Dana 44's that I had laying around, a set of 33" BFG's from my old trail Jeep, planted a cage in it, and competed in my first ERoCC Legends comp all in less than a month and for less than $2500. Plus, I finished 3rd in the first comp after a bad first day, and had the lead in the second till my axle wrap problem raised its ugly head and dropped me to 4th. Yeah, I'd like to have sponsors for next year, but I'll be running either way. Got to keep spaceghost on his toes:D

Either way, I just want to beat the courses... everything else will take care of itself.

ok every one is compairing nascar to rcaa. well nascar is just a promoter (sp) they have some very small class's around the USA that you can just bring your DD and race but it is still sactioned by Nascar. If RCAA ever gets as big as NASCAR there will always be your smaller "homeboy" class's. now im not a mind reader but i think within the next 2 or 3 years all the Promoters will join forces and promote there own series under one name. Im so sure i would say Quote me on this.

Originally posted by John Deere Ranger
...I personally agree with Tex...... i don't think the sport will last all tooooooo long...... because there is no way of getting a high volume of people into to watch the sport and there only coverage is really in the magizines..... unless ur cable provider gets you 4x4TV which comes on like once aweek...... but in my point of view there just isn't enough of an audiance to keep the sport rolling...... the sport rigs are built and funded (for the most part) by common folks...... they can't continue to break over and over again......

I think the point is that the sport of rockcrawling is rolling along just fine right now. What is being discussed is, is it growing to fast for its own good? Like tons of coverage, dumbasses thinking they are rockcrawlers on all the trails, and lots of money.

I think the key to keep rockcrawling Alive is to get it put on National Television for more and more audiance..... then the sponsers pocket will become MUCH deeper alowing more common people......

When it takes an average joe $100,000- $150,000 to start rockcrawling..... the sport is goin down hill. I Belive for $30,000 you could build a real good vehicle and once your driving ability caught up with your vehicle's abiltiy you would be great contender.......

When sponsors pockets become "much deeper" that is when the average joe will NOT be able to compete. I believe the nascar reference can be used here.


about trail paving.... in the east where there is more dirt around the rocks the dirt gets erroded makeing old easy trails harder and harder as time goes by....... in the west you can stack rocks and they will stay there much easier over time.......

I wish we had rocks here:(

rockcrawling just like mudracing and monster trucks and tough trucks....... will never die...... but for it to grow to its most optimum state and continue to grow and contine to expand its markets......... It will take some really good managment....... I belive it is possible to have rock racing as a mini nascar sport..... where there are 43 teams that travel around the US in semi's with shops built in..... but the key....... I belive is more TV coverage....... I know theres thousands of people in the east that would watch cal rocs and rrca.... if it were put on National TV........ If the rockcrawling world can do this.... I think they will have more of a chance to survive.....

This is why I am confused as to what you are saying. Do you think the average driveway fabricator can afford to travel around the country in a semi-truck with a shop and a team? I have to agree with your earlier statement above "When it takes an average joe $100,000- $150,000 to start rockcrawling..... the sport is goin down hill". :)

Jared

Originally posted by Lance
... go out to a competition, get your ass kicked, come back again, ... and have fun!

I've got the first part down pat, Lance, but it sure would be a lot more fun if I didn't get my ass kicked so badly!:flipoff2:
Great advice though. Cuz I can't see any other way to do it.
Anywho, participating in the two stock mod events so far this year has been a real eye opener ...
If for nothing else than being challenged to tackle stuff I'd previously thought crazy and obscene for my rig.
I'd encourage anyone to come and join in on the stock mod class fun.
I guarentee you'll be a one hell of a lot better driver after it is all said and done ... after the adreneline tapers off and yer heart slows back down!:eek: