Just cruisin by from the Land Cruiser board and thought some of you might find this sight interesting.

http://www.mercedesrover.freeservers.com/index.html

Jim ( the author) said if he had to do it over again he would use the 5 Cylinder MB 300Turb Diesel diesel and use late model defender front end to make it fit.
Lots of these 300TD ( 617s and all Iron) 125 hp diesels around and fairly inexpensive. Years I think are 76-85?
Buddy picked one up in Vegas with a Rebuilt 5 cyl diesel 300TD in the car for $250..tranny was shot , he thought till we trailered in home and all it needed was a torque converter.

Have fun... if it's a repost , sorry.

bennett

Hey Bennett,

Having owned both versions of the 300TD, the 4cyl *and* the 5cyl, I would be hesitant to put one in a LR.

Yeah, it might fit, but still gutless (although the GVW's are similar).

Super expensive to rebuild (when/if), and if you are going to find one in a body that's knackered, the motor is probably in similar shape.

For my money, if I'm going to contemplate a diesel conversion into a Rover, it's going to be Cummins/Isuzu/Mitsu (with heavy leanings towards the Cummins).

He did a top-notch job on the conversion, that adapter plate is especially sweet. Some of the job isn't what I would do to my LR, but Kudos to him for trying something different and pulling it off in an extraordinary way.

Not to diss your post. It's neat to bring other ideas to this forum.

speaking of diesels, I am considering an NV 3550 transmission for my conversion - and wanted some specs on the 3.4 liter Cummins six cylinders to compare with the specs on the NV 3550 tranny - so I posted on the Dodge board and have so far been told there is no such animal as this engine. Am I high? Does anyone have the specs for this engine?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serious One
[B]Hey Bennett,
quote:
For my money, if I'm going to contemplate a diesel conversion into a Rover, it's going to be Cummins/Isuzu/Mitsu (with heavy leanings towards the Cummins).
___________________________________-

I have looked into the cummins/ isuzu deal and several of the conversions have been done in the Cruiser groups. There is a Cummins power cruiser in Cali where the owner said he had to wear earphones and wire every bolt cause it shook it apart (FJ55 Wagon). There is an Isuzu powered cruiser in Tahoe that is still going after ten years. Owner says it is nice and loud but tamer than the Cummins.
The Benz's would cost similar to maintain and rebuild as far as $$$ dollars go. Benz's have the reputation of going 300K if maintained properly. My Vehicle would be 80% highway 20% offroad. I am thinking a softop Fj40 using stock running gear and should make for a "all round vehicle".
I can hook you up with a Mitsubishi 4 cyl TB 4BD?? intercooled 5 speed here in Utah if interested. It's in a Cabover at a nearby Yard. $1500 for the engine and ??$$ for the 5 speedtrans/bellhousing. Truck got hit it in side ( pics available)
Just recently a fellow Landcruiser clubmember here in Utah dropped a Cummins 3.4 6 AT in his Cruiser ( see site below). I hav a source on those if interested.
The 6AT needs a 5 speed.. his is mated to a Chev sm465 4 speed. EGTs get a litttle high. Nice engine overall though.
More good diesel info here posted by my Friend and Diesel Hunter
Andre Shoumatoff. Good info site.
http://www.cisautoweb.com/dtlc/cummins.html

Diesel.......It's all good

bennett

you dont want an NV3550, just because its made by NV doesnt mean its strong. the cummins 6 you speak of is the 6AT, of which the dodge guys would have no knowledge. the only automotive aplication they were used in were delivery (bread) vans, and similar. if im not mistaken, i believe the specs are about 125hp, and 230ft lbs?

nice engines, very usable in a stock or near stock land rover, but IMO the cummins 4BT 3.9L (which the dodge guys should know about) is a much better engine. it is essentially the same motor as used in the dodge pickups but with two less cylinders. output on this is about 135hp and 305ft lbs. the only disadvantage is it is very vibration prone.

if i were to do an engine conversion to a diesel, however, it would be the Isuzu 4BD1T. this is an isuzu 3.9L 4 cyl, but is is much more refined and in many cases, cheaper. it is quieter, smoother operating, and has nearly identical output figures to the cummins 4bt.

the main advantage that the cummins 4BT has over any other small diesel, is its ability to be tuned. power outputs in the range of 300hp and 750 ft lbs are no problem for this engine, because you can use the same bolt on parts that are available for the dodge cummins 6BT.

anyways, that some info i have learned about diesel conversions in several months of research. hope you learned something!

Adam, what can you tell me about the NV 3550? Heard horror stories? Personal experience? I am told by Coop that it is a strong transmission - thick aluminum case - and it is rated at 300 ft lbs torque, and the 6 at is rated at a peak of 230..... I need a five speed and I just wanna pick the right one! Especially at the prices NV 3550s go for.....


And Bennett: thanks for the link to that Cruise site. Cool.

Simon

it is sufficient for a daily driver or very mild off roader. i am just used to imagining things to their utmost extremity, and in that case i think that the 3550 wouldnt do so well. if you dont plan on getting too nutty or are low on funds, i think it should work great. but personally, i would be going for the 4500 or an older granny 4spd tranny because it better suits my needs.

good luck with your conversion, and be sure to post plenty of pics!

Adam: I was planning on a four speed but I need an "overdrive" with this engine for highway cruising out here so a four is out. Don't want to re-gear my diffs (I already have a high ratio Transfer case conversion kit)

My wheeling would by definition be "mild" since I have four kids and my wife rarely lets me off the leash.... However, I am looking for information - and what I remember of the NV 4500 specs, it handles 450 ft lbs of torque and GVWs of 19,000 pounds - seemed like maybe over kill, so thats why I asked about the NV 3550. What I want to know is, is there some flaw I haven't heard about in the NV 3550s? Can anyone else on the board tell me it is not suitable for use in a 109 with a cummins 3.4 6at, mated to a rover T case with a high ratio gear conversion?
I won't be putting huge tires on or wheeling hard, but I want the rig to be as bulletproof as possible and if that means shelling out more $$, then fine, I'll do it. I want to make the right choice here. I've been told by a guy I respect that the NV 3550 would probably be the transmission to use (he's still thinking about it...he is considering it for his own rig), and if he says use it, I will. I just thought I'd see what I could find out about this transmission. Anyone know anyone who has ever killed one of these transmissions?

:flipoff2: Fawkin Newbies.....:flipoff2:

Simon

as far as asking about anyone who has killed one, make a post in the jeep forum. you will get answers there.

and i forgot the major drawback of the 3550 (from my point of view), and that is the lack of a creepy first gear. you dont need it as much with a diesel, but its nice to have the control nonetheless.

NV3500
5 speed fully synchronized transmission with the bell housing integral to the aluminum case. There are four design levels of this unit. It started life in 1988 as an HM290 found in GM trucks, and was re-designated 5LM60 with early and late designs. Hm290 and 5LM60 units each have 4 shift rails. The unit was completely redesigned as a 3500 with a single shift rail. Due to all the design variations it is critical to positively identify which model trans you are working on in order to get the right parts. This unit is built in both 2 and 4WD versions. This series of transmissions requires some special tools for rebuilding. These transmissions are found in full size GM trucks from 1988 and up, S10 trucks from 1990 and up, and 1994 and up Dodge Dakota V8 Ram trucks.

For more bellhousing options look at the NV3550 (bellhousing is removeable).

The NV4500 has a bellhousing that will fit a 4B or 6B Cummins if you can fit a trans that big.

I've heard that High-impact may soon be offering a NV4500 to LT230 conversion.

http://www.high-impact.net/transmission_and_gear/nv4500.htm

You know Simon, if you're really into the 'custom' shiat, then you could always do what we did with the crew-cab.

That way you would have OD in all 4 gears, with a higher cruise ratio.

FWIW I'll have to agree with Mike re' the MB diesel .My father owned both versions / 240 4 cyl / 300 5 cyl and they were both total slugs .I'd hate to imagine what they would be like in a LR ,considering the aerodynamics and weight involved .Personal experience with Isuzu's says that you will not be sorry if you choose the 4BD1 .If you want bulletproof then go -4BD1 -LT95-3.54 Sals' rear -3.54 stage one front .HTH

Michael,

That pic of your crew cab's drivetrain...

Is that an AA ranger?

I was planning the same thing. 3.4AT (chevy SM465 pattern) adapted to my T-18 through a custom made AA ranger case. It means no custom bellhousings or other shiatt, it's a pure bolt in except for longer driveshafts and a crossmember. Sweetness.

It gives me a longer drivetrain, which is good on my ambulance/long range expedition beast, and, as you said, overdrive in every gear.

Anyways, niice. Very very chill.

J-L

HandBuilt,

It is indeed an AA Ranger. Supposed to be noisier than He-double-toothpicks, so I've insulated the tunnel cover (custom) with 1/2 inch Rhinolining on the inside and 1/4 inch on the outside to help keep the noise down.

The configuration I got it in required minimal customization, I think we needed to get a spedific version of the SM465 (2WD maybe???) and I can't remember if we did anything to the output/input shaft. I do remember it all bolted all together.

I like your sig line. We may have to compare mods someday. With my 145-146-147 inch wheelbase (constantly changing), I can fit more mods in there! :flipoff2:

Are you going to do the Ranger soon?

looks right purty Mike! Way to make a guy envious. Do you really think the chrome on those exhaust manifolds will hold up?:flipoff2: I am making an effort (but I am failing ) to stick to the KISS principle : Keep It Simple, Shiathead! Also trying to keep it inexpensive!

Simon

Michael,

Thanks for the info about the ranger being noisy. I've built my tranny enclosure in a way that it can easily be insulated, and I'm planning on getting the seatbox and the inside of the panels shot with rhino lining/ line-x.

I'm in no position (financially) to do this swap in the next while as I'm still in college, final year. I'm just accumulating info and planning out the best way to do it. This is going to happen, however, either for an Isuzu or a Cummins 3.4AT.

I usually spend a few months thinking about stuff before doing it. Like my rear end, for example. I've been scratching my head and coming up with all kinds of possibilities for it, I think I' ve got it figured out.

Glad you like my sig. Of course, it doesn't apply to everyone, some have done more. I just think the term "custom" and "modified" is thrown around a lot in the 4wd world, even when dealing with bolt on mods and store bought stuff.

I see a custom as more of a one-off than a run of the mill vehicle that's got a ton of upgrades (SG, etc).

I'm sure others will differ, that's just my humble opinion.

J-L

Hello Roverheads, Andre from the Land Cruiser section here. Just doing a search and came across this wonderful thread. JL and I have been yappin' from time to time back channel. I also used to own a S III 88 once upon a time that I loved. JL has a Ford 258 (or similar) crammed under the bonnett of his 109, and a Cummins 6AT (what I would recommend, definetely over a 4BT) is roughly the same size, maybe an inch longer and taller. It will fit into a moderately lifted Rover with no problems. You will need some very heavy duty springs though.

As for the Isuzu I also think it would be a great engine in a Rover. Perhaps a little too powerful though, you would definetely need at least a Salsbury rear if not perhaps a set of FJ40 axles. It also has the same need for an overdrive as well...

My question related to perhaps something the Aussies can answer. I know the Isuzu 4BD1T came in some 130s stock down under. Anyone know what the transmission was and the t case output? Offset front and rear?

Also, the 6AT has a series of adapter rings that come stock in most American applications that allow it to mate to any tranny originally designed for a Chev 350 (sae #3). The Isuzu 4BD is also very close to a sae #3, it basically is but the holes are rotated off about 15-20 degrees, so you need to redrill. I've approached Advance Adapters to possibly manufacture an adapter ring for this engine to a standard Chev trans but haven't heard back from them. Does anyone have any sources on where such a thing could be manufactured? (1/4" thick ring that simply allows for repositioning of the holes, therefore "no drilling required"). :)

I think you guys are asking about the Perentie LR's from Australia.

Someone from Australia is bound to correct me, but I believe they used an LT-95 (transmission/t-case in one), but it was an upgraded unit, I believe the center diff was 4-pin rather than 2???

As for an adapter ring, I'd call

www.bcboffroad.com

I don't know if he's actually thought about doing this or not, but if you ask him I'm sure he'd tell you he's been thinking about it for years.

He's got a good relationship with Advance Adapters, so between the two of them you'll probably figure out something that will work.

Good luck Cruiserheads!

Oh Shiatt, look what the dog dragged in :rolleyes:

What's up Andre! :D

It's been a while since I've gone through this thread, but there's some good info on here.

Andre, that adapter ring would be a joke to build. I can make one those in a day easy. You could get the basic outline water jet cut and then drill all the holes on a CNC mill in about 1/2 hour. I'd personally do it the old fashion way (numerical mill) because that's what I have access to. You could get any competent machine shop to make something like this, all you need is the bolt patterns. If you were to dig up the exact Chevy and Isuzu (SAE#3) bellhousing measurements it would be easy.

You'd need thicker than 1/4" because the bolts that are in the block would have to be recessed into the plate so the bellhousing can seal up unhindered.

All in all, the only problems would be that you might need to modify the clutch throwout mechanism as the plate moves the flywheel away (I'd personally just cut the thickness off the bellhousing with a mill)

How soon do you need this? Cummins 4BTs and 6ATs are impossible to find up here, I've exhausted every single lead I had and found nothing. Most of the applications that you would find them in were retrofitted to propane (LPG) power as it works a bit better in the cold. Diesels are hell to start for fleet owners.

However, the Isuzus are a dime a dozen, so it looks like the 4BD1 is a better deal, and I think I prefer it anyways as it's shorter and it's a 4 cyl.

That means I'll be faced with adapting a Zuzu bellhousing to something else soon enough.

It might be cheaper to make two of these than one...

J-L

Thanks guys! Will keep posted if I ever attempt one of these conversions myself. Any you too, especially JL!

This thread is beginning to remind me of an Eminem song...

I'm surprised our resident diesel Rover nut hasn't weighed in. Ike (Leafsprung) has the 6AT in his series truck. It's kinda noisy (what series truck isn't?), but I believe that if given a chance, it would climb trees.

As for the MB diesels, I had a frined in college who had one. He said he couldn't pass school buses with it. I think I'd go SBC. Mike, we must talk about those Bling-Bling valve covers. Maybe you're the person to whom I will give my Corvette factory aluminum valve covers.

Peace,
Paul

JL, how cheap is a dime a dozen on those isuzus?

if i were to do it (i really want to) i would use the isuzu 5spd that came behind them and then run a divorced LT230 (a la slades 145). but i would still be interested in hearing what kind of cost you are thinking of on the adapters.

you guys are too hard on the MB motor, I had a 83 300d and with some playing around it made alot of power.

the ticket is to install a pyrometer into the exhaust manifold and jack the boost till it makes about 950* at the turbo inlet. you need to run the pyrometer because as the fuel changes the amount of heat it makes is dramaticly different. when its set up right it makes plenty of power blows no soot and gets great mileage. it would smoke the tires off the line and spin the tires hitting second gear with the ZF modulator turned in 1 turn from stock. I was real close to throwing ATS's propane injection system onto it. using propane as a Catalyst I think you could really make some serious power.the cool thing about diesels is you cant run them to lean...they wont run.but you sure can run them to hot anything over 1000* they start cooking themselves.

it also isnt a very heavy motor as far as oil burners go. so the issue of having heavy stiff springs wouldent be such a big deal.

Does anybody know if www.4x4labs.com ever came through with an adapter ?
They e-mailed me since we had two MB 617 engines hangin off engines stands and I offered to be a guinea pig....no replies ?

They still around?

bennett

I actually totally agree. Check out some of the stuff these guys are doing on to their Benzes here:

http://www.mb-diesel-cars.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi

I also really like the idea of 5 cyl. I also think that engine would be awesome in a Rover, especially in something like a little 88. It's what I would probably do given the noise, and relative lack of ability to sustain big power in the drivetrain. I would probably use a Land Cruiser 5 speed with a split case (non USA model, Canada or otherwise, but commonly available in the US), and a Benz - Land Cruiser adapter from a South African company that is rumored to be commonly commercially available shortly in the states as well.

PS, Wassup Bennito! Checked out another 55 today, check your email!

Sorry guys, but Benzo's not the ticket. Not for an off-roader, at least, unless you like slipping the clutch.

I've seen and heard a turbo diesel 5 cyl powered 109, and discussed this engine extensively with the owner. His friend built a non turbo 109 as well. It was a really nice piece, all galvy, built by a really competent dude.

However, I would not recommend it and neither does he. It's a great engine, very durable, and will move a rover along at highly illegal speeds (hauls on the highway - The turbo does, the NA is a turd) but it just doesn't have the torque necessary for off-road. It needs rpms to make good power (turbo), and basically is a PITA as it doesn't have any lugging power. He doesn't off-road much so it's pretty good for his uses, but for most rovers it's not a good setup.

The guy is yanking out the Benzo in favor of a 2.5L (shudder) rover diesel.

9V - adapters. Okay. So let's say I get four done. I'd be looking at a 250$ sheet of 6061 T6 (I'd use aluminum, just because), then about 100$ of CNC cutting, then probably a day of messing around with the mill and the drill presses. I'd probably end up selling these for about 150$ or so US. They'd be what you would call a degree ring. What I might do is not drill out the bellhousing bolt pattern for the tranny you are trying to mount to it, just the Isuzu, and mark the crank centerlines and engine cylinder centerline. This would mean that you could adapt anything to it, whether it be a TH350 to a Fuller 9 sp.

The other thing I am looking into is a Hino, just to be different...

J-L

handbuilt,

lugging power could be attained by using a variable vane turbo like the ricer guys are now using. they where developed on diesels and are said to boost low end torque by 20% in some instances. add that to the low end torque gains you get from propane injection and you would have plenty or low end grunt.

but short of all that wizardry, provided you had the wheel base a double transfer case would give you the gearing you needed to run a higher reving motor...grunt is only important if you dont have the gears.

these benz turbo diesels make intoxicating power ,smooth and crisp,progresive and predictable. very very offroad friendly geared correctly and at some point I will own one running diesel and propane in a Disco 1 ...just you wait;)

MM

Originally posted by dieselcruiserhead
My question related to perhaps something the Aussies can answer. I know the Isuzu 4BD1T came in some 130s stock down under. Anyone know what the transmission was and the t case output? Offset front and rear?

The Isuzu 4BD1 was 1st fitted to Series III, Phase 1 LR in 1978.

All military 110s (Perentie and Parakeet) had the LT95 box and 6WD versions had the 4BD1-T engine. The last Parakeets were built in Sept 1998.

Civillian 110s with the 4BD1 had the LT95 box up to 1985, then they were fitted with 5 speed LT85 Santana. Maxi-drive can convert the input bearing to taper roller to fix the LT85 when used with the 4BD1.

Isuzu trucks are popular in Aussie and 4BD1 and 4BD1-T motors are easy to find, but the flywheel housings for the LT95 are rare.

I'm building a Bush Ranger (based on Dakar 4x4) from a rangie with and Isuzu 4BD1-T, Isuzu MXA-6R 6 speed gearbox and divorced transfer.

Originally posted by muskyman

but short of all that wizardry, provided you had the wheel base a double transfer case would give you the gearing you needed to run a higher reving motor...grunt is only important if you dont have the gears.

these benz turbo diesels make intoxicating power ,smooth and crisp,progresive and predictable. very very offroad friendly geared correctly and at some point I will own one running diesel and propane in a Disco 1 ...just you wait;)

MM


Intoxicating ! The fumes are really that bad ? :flipoff2:

Gonna drive it on the street?

Because on the road it would be a real biatch. You'd have to get good at shifting because you would need to keep the motor between 3000 and redline all the time. Anything below that and you'd sink into the black hole.

I've seen a REAL LIVE rover with a turbo diesel 5 cyl attached to an LT77 and a 110 T case, with rangie axles and diffs, and the PROUD OWNER told me it wasn't a good combo for wheeling. That's pretty good as far as opinions because they guy was cool and he was smart.

If you want to do it, GO FOR IT DUDE! I'll be the first so say it's different = cool. Don't expect that diesel to actually perform like a diesel, more like a smelly Honda Ricer motor though. A 1.8 Prelude motor might actually work awesome on the rocks with 200-1 reduction, but I'd get damn tired of hearing it buzz. Idle is nice for crawling. I get enough damn noise on the highway.

J-L

Originally posted by HandBuilt A 1.8 Prelude motor might actually work awesome on the rocks with 200-1 reduction, but I'd get damn tired of hearing it buzz. Idle is nice for crawling. I get enough damn noise on the highway.

J-L [/B]

If the Spydertrax guys weren't so damn good at driving, thieir Rice-powered RCAA buggy would be the laugh of the circuit.

Hearing that thing wind up like a chainsaw is pretty bad, until you see what they can do when they point it uphill.

Everyone I was with was just waiting for a rod to come flying out the side of the block.