Searched, woulda thought this'd be there... but I didn't find it.

I've got my D60 front. I broke my D60 front. Blew the right front U-joint.
Shroomed the outer stub (35 spline) ears, splines are fine.
Twisted the inner axle splines a bit. Inner axle is beat, but the ears appear to be OK.
Shredded the joint--two caps totally gone, one leg of the cross gone, etc.

I just checked my joints a few days before. There were hairline cracks in the accumulated crud, around where my caps set into my yokes. But the caps weren't spinning, just developing hairline cracks.

I'm not running full-circle clips, but I don't think it matters in this case, since I'm not spinning the caps and then popping them.

What I'm wondering is, if I weld the caps in, full-circle, around the outsides, will it improve the overall strength of the assembly (knowing full well at that point that I'll likely twist off the inner splines) or will it weaken the yokes to the point that I'll just tear a nice chunk of yoke off with the U-joint cap?

FWIW, I'm figuring that since I'm not spinning the caps, tack welding them in is pretty much irrelevant--I need to improve the strength of the ears and probably the joints as well. Since I'm already at the point (with cheezball parts-store joints) that I can twist the inner splines, it seems to me that without a significant upgrade, I'm not likely to gain much without spending huge cash--I'm looking for more like an interim 5-10% improvement that's nearly free.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
(with cheezball parts-store joints)
Kinda supprised to hear you running cheap joints

Scott

I am not saying this is your problem.....but in the past I had some similar issues and the switch from the joints I was running *percision* to some Spicers, seemed to offer more durability in the caps.
I will leave the question of welding the caps to someone who has tried it with a Dana 60. I have seen less than good results doing this to a Dana 44 joint personally but because I have no idea of how it was even welded it may not have been a good example.

I am thinking there is a serious market for shafts similar to the Warn Dana 44 stuff to fit the 60 fronts. If they could be kept affordable, I imagine they would sell incredably well.

NoRM

this has been discussed in this forum complete with pics and in the Toyota forum (search for posts by Crash) complete with pics

good luck

- jack

Snap rings are probably your best bet. IDK about the caps "spinning" but I do know if your c clips let go, you lose the joint. I've done it a few times....

As to more than tack welding, well, it just seems really butch. Tacks can be ground off easily, but a full bead can't. Call me cheap, but if one of those shafts is still good, I wanna be able to reuse that fawker! This sounds like it might be a factor for you too since you seem to be breaking inner shafts as well. At least you could reuse (or sell) the extra stubs (I happen to need a 30 spline stub for Chevy right now, ya got any?)

Finally, you could try some of Loc Tite's High Strength Metal Bonding agent (think that's what it's called) in addition to runnin snap rings. Between those two, and Spicer joints, I don't see the joints being a problem anymore.

'k... redid the search (thanks Morpheus!) and came up with some more info.

Reddwarf, my concern right now is, it seems that the failure was probably because I've got enough torque to deflect the ears, far enough to then blow the joint. I don't think the caps spat at all prior to the joint breaking; in fact, the one chunk of cross that broke off, was still in the cap that it lived in, still in the yoke, after the break.

I guess, really, what I'm after is, if I weld the caps into the yokes, will that stiffen the entire yoke/joint assembly to the point that I won't deform the yokes at all any more, and can instead get on with twisting the inner 35 spline axle (which I've done slightly on the old one) so my axle breakage can be right at the diff. Concern is that the welding could embrittle the yokes to the point that they just snap off instead.

From the search, it appears that Crash thinks welding the caps full-circle is a good thing, and everybody else says just to tack them in to keep them from spinning--but I'm not having issues with the spinning, more with the yokes deforming around the caps under load. That deformation/flex, will probably break out tack welds.

CJ, there are some places I deliberately run cheezball parts, in the hope that they'll break before the expensive stuff does. Although cheezball might be pushing it on the old front axle joints (the crosses actually did say Spicer on them, but they came in a non-Spicer box) so who knows. I very deliberately run $8 apice cheezball driveshaft U-joints, for exactly that reason.

From what I can find in the search, everybody who's fought with this problem, has fought with it in a D44... and I'm not running a 44. Crash? Ever full-circle-welded a set of 60 caps?

Reddwarf, I think I can do it to where it doesn't look terribly butch, but I'm with ya on being able to replace the joint at some point, without having to bring it back to a machine shop to take the weld out. And the strength still worries me, as I'll be most likely doing the first real strength testing of this... at Supercrawl.

Reddwarf, my concern right now is, it seems that the failure was probably because I've got enough torque to deflect the ears, far enough to then blow the joint. I don't think the caps spat at all prior to the joint breaking; in fact, the one chunk of cross that broke off, was still in the cap that it lived in, still in the yoke, after the break.

My opinion on this is no....I realize I am a "newbie" here to a degree but I have 14 years of wheeling and truckpulling experiance under my belt and I have broken ALOT of axles...but after reading the other threads of crash's and thinking on it some I can see why you ask the question you are..it would stop the ears from being able to move as freely eliminating the "space" beteen the caps and the shaft effectivly. But I too wonder if that will make the shafts brittle from the heat. And what would it do to the bearings?

CJ, there are some places I deliberately run cheezball parts, in the hope that they'll break before the expensive stuff does. Although cheezball might be pushing it on the old front axle joints (the crosses actually did say Spicer on them, but they came in a non-Spicer box) so who knows. I very deliberately run $8 apice cheezball driveshaft U-joints, for exactly that reason.

I can relate, back in the Dana 44 days I used to run Superwinch lockouts for the same reason. (not much success in my application I might add) lots of broken hubs, and it still broke shafts. And if the cross said Spicer it prolly was a Spicer
joint ...I know our local parts house used to sell Spicer joints under the PDQ brand name for a while.

Scott we had some of the same issues in the wheeling rig and the pull trucks...just for discussion sake one thing we used to see in the truck pulling world was a interesting situation where we would run new Spicer shafts and they would break rather frequantly...when we lucked out and found some oem Dana 70 Dodge outer stubs and modified things to run them in the pull truck with "seasoned" old 1978 issue inner shafts and the same Spicer joint tacked in, we had MUCH better success. Like the old stuff was just better metal maybe? I noticed this as well in my Dana 44 at the time... get old solid junkyard shafts toss a new joint in and go wheeling they did "ok"... buy new shafts and it seemed I broke MUCH more frequantly. Dunno, maybe it's just me that has that opinion.

back before the days of Warn shafts and CTM's for Dana 44's we had a local fella here that would polish the yokes on a "seasoned" OEM shaft, then shotpeen it, and polish it again and then heat treat em some way, I tried a set he gave me...I will admit I did break a few joints but in the end I broke those shafts at the diff and not the joint when I finally did break em. (In reverse at 5,500 RPM backwards out of a VERY steep bowl with 38's) But maybe them lasting was just a fluke I don't know. In the 60's I have just changed joints frequantly and this seems to slow down the carnage.

I believe that someone should built aftermarket Dana 60 shafts comparable to the WARN Dana 44 stuff and market them with a resonable price for that sort of shaft. Can't help thinking whomever does will sell ALOT of them.

NoRM
who thinks you should pioneer this "weld it all"idea and let us know :p

I think try the Loc Tite first.

I also think maybe you need CTM's. At least if the yokes are giving up, it won't break the CTM.

Doesn't it piss you off to put in a cheap driveshaft joint and still break axle shafts? My front shaft joint cost 6.99 and it has seen 2 broken steering joints, two cracked caps, and two broken inner shafts! Oh yeah, the Auto hubs are holding up fine too:mad: :rolleyes:

scott,
From my experience tack welding,full snap rings or welding the cap completely as you have thought of already really seem to have very little benefit if any with the 60 front joints. I have broken several joints(spicer 5-332x joints) which also ruined the ears on the axleshafts in the form of stretching them, completely tearing them off or breaking the side of them.Actually I had one joint explode the inner and outer ears without ripping them off so much that it wedged the innershaft into the outer axle and would still pull:eek: .In the end the trunion is what i have always broke at the base of the crosswhich then destroyed the ears.I have tried all the above options and still broke them in the same place.CTM"S are obviously a waste of your time and money since you have already seen the ears deform..If you run the ctm joint the ears will shear right off and eject the joint out of the knuckle. One option that I would suggest is this.Try the "forged" spicer u-joints with part number spl-55 3x also known as a 5-733x..these joints are greasable joints. However, the hole that runs through the cross is significantly smaller than the hole in the non gresable version(5-332x). The hole in the end of the cross in the nongreasable joint which holds the grease for the cap has a diameter close to 3/8 or possibly slightly bigger(just estimating off the top of my head).The hole in the ones(spl55-3x/5-733x) I mentioned is probably only 1/8..Also, the joints I mentioned are supposedly stronger because they are forged joints. whenever I have broken the joints they sheared at the base of the trunion where the hole bottom is located.I think the smaller hole and supposedly stronger manufacturing process will net some increase in strength in the shaft of the trunion.I won't guarentee that this will stop the breaking ;but, it is decent option that should be stronger.Just don't know how much and I don't think anybody for sure knows......anyways...I hope this helps generate some ideas and good luck.:D

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
Searched, woulda thought this'd be there... but I didn't find it.

I've got my D60 front. I broke my D60 front. Blew the right front U-joint.
Shroomed the outer stub (35 spline) ears, splines are fine.
Twisted the inner axle splines a bit. Inner axle is beat, but the ears appear to be OK.
Shredded the joint--two caps totally gone, one leg of the cross gone, etc.

I just checked my joints a few days before. There were hairline cracks in the accumulated crud, around where my caps set into my yokes. But the caps weren't spinning, just developing hairline cracks.

I'm not running full-circle clips, but I don't think it matters in this case, since I'm not spinning the caps and then popping them.

What I'm wondering is, if I weld the caps in, full-circle, around the outsides, will it improve the overall strength of the assembly (knowing full well at that point that I'll likely twist off the inner splines) or will it weaken the yokes to the point that I'll just tear a nice chunk of yoke off with the U-joint cap?

FWIW, I'm figuring that since I'm not spinning the caps, tack welding them in is pretty much irrelevant--I need to improve the strength of the ears and probably the joints as well. Since I'm already at the point (with cheezball parts-store joints) that I can twist the inner splines, it seems to me that without a significant upgrade, I'm not likely to gain much without spending huge cash--I'm looking for more like an interim 5-10% improvement that's nearly free.
Sorry to bring up a dead horse, but I was curious if Scott ended up welding the caps in and what the results were. I'm considering doing the same thing on my 60 but was curious what he found.

I'm 100% sold on welding in the 297-1x into my D44. I only broke 1 D44 shaft on the trail after welding the caps in with two long beads in over 3 years of wheeling in AZ (I'm also pretty conservative with the go pedal though).

I've had to change axles about once a year due to wear. The only thing holding them together was the welded in caps. The bearings were actually coming out of the caps after being broken into dust and small pieces and there was probably 3/8" of slop where the cross could move up or down and/or left/right in the caps.

BTW, I always bought brand new Spicer alloy inners and outers and new 297-1x (greaseable) ujoints. I never tried it on an already oblonged yoke or used ujoint.

Just an FYI, (for anyone who's interested or this might help): the caps were TIG welded with a type of rod called "Super Missile Weld".

I tried regular tig rod at first but after awhile the welds cracked. Not sure if the cracks were a function of the axles and caps being so hard or b/c there is so much force on the joint trying to push it apart in the first place; probably a little bit of both.

Sean

Doesn't it piss you off to put in a cheap driveshaft joint and still break axle shafts? My front shaft joint cost 6.99 and it has seen 2 broken steering joints, two cracked caps, and two broken inner shafts!
Yeah... one of the exact reasons I question the wisdom of running one-ton axle shafts. I can see it for competition, where you plumb DON'T want to break, but for weekend warrior stuff, I'm pickier about where I'd liike to break.

Scott -- about the weld -- do you have access to someone who can TIG the bead and minimize heat transfer? I worry about making the yokes brittle, but I also worry about cooking the needles and grease inside the joint.

One other somewhat random thought -- can you get similar stress relief benefits from smaller particles? My sandblast cabinet doesn't have the stones to pressurize shot, but does pretty well with some of the large-particle commercial mixes....

Randii

Originally posted by randii
Doesn't it piss you off to put in a cheap driveshaft joint and still break axle shafts? My front shaft joint cost 6.99 and it has seen 2 broken steering joints, two cracked caps, and two broken inner shafts!
Yeah... one of the exact reasons I question the wisdom of running one-ton axle shafts. I can see it for competition, where you plumb DON'T want to break, but for weekend warrior stuff, I'm pickier about where I'd liike to break.

Randii

Randii,
Great point. I recently posted a question about the relative strength of the Toy 21 spline cases when coupled with 35 spline 60s f/r in the Toy truck section. Only one person has responded running 60s with similar gearing and engine size to what I do and they haven't had any issues. I definitely don't want my fuse to be the tcases. After reading this thread, I'm more confused than ever. Is Rockstomper running 21 spline tcases? If so, is he breaking axles before input/output shafts?

Sean

TTT.
Scott, you out there?

Sean

Originally posted by onetonwillysands10
scott,
Try the "forged" spicer u-joints with part number spl-55 3x also known as a 5-733x..these joints are greasable joints. However, the hole that runs through the cross is significantly smaller than the hole in the non gresable version(5-332x).

The SPL55-xx line has been replaced with a newer version with an even better sealing, which should allow you to run the non-greasable version (no drill hole through the trunion)

Spicer PN 5-806x, 1480 series (Dana 60 front steering joint), non greaseable.

Originally posted by Sean


Randii,
Great point. I recently posted a question about the relative strength of the Toy 21 spline cases when coupled with 35 spline 60s f/r in the Toy truck section. Only one person has responded running 60s with similar gearing and engine size to what I do and they haven't had any issues. I definitely don't want my fuse to be the tcases. After reading this thread, I'm more confused than ever. Is Rockstomper running 21 spline tcases? If so, is he breaking axles before input/output shafts?

Sean

IIRC, Scott's got a 21 spline input to the first 2.28 'case, then a 23 spline 4.7 'case behind that.

I've been thinking weling a strut across the caps and hopefully it will not interfere with truning hehe- Jess:D