I have a .40 cal and can't use hollow points here. So any recommendations for a good soft lead round good stopping power but less likely to go through walls?

That Federal EFMJ stuff is legal in NJ, IIRC, but the jury is still out on whether it's worth a hoot or not.

I'd say roll your own cast lead, but I'm sure a NJ DA would have a field day with that one...

Have you thought of getting a shotgun? Is buckshot legal for home defense there?

Edit: how about Pow'R'Ball? It's not a hollow point. Glaser safety slugs come to mind, too.

These are not HPs, heard alot of good stuff about them.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Glaser-Safety-Slug/40-SW-115gr-Glaser/03000-03200/500/Product

That Federal EFMJ stuff is legal in NJ, IIRC, but the jury is still out on whether it's worth a hoot or not.

I'd say roll your own cast lead, but I'm sure a NJ DA would have a field day with that one...

Have you thought of getting a shotgun? Is buckshot legal for home defense there?

Edit: how about Pow'R'Ball? It's not a hollow point. Glaser safety slugs come to mind, too.


I don't know about buckshot, I would think it would be more legal than a slug though. I do have a shotgun just a little big to wield quickly in my place. I checked the Glaser and think I am gonna go with that.

These are not HPs, heard alot of good stuff about them.
http://www.dakotaammo.net/Glaser-Safety-Slug/40-SW-115gr-Glaser/03000-03200/500/Product

I like that thanks

more legal

Please define that term.

What do they expect you to use? Harsh language?

Seriously, do they not let you have HP ammo in NJ? Is it SP or FMJ only? That doesn't make much sense. Time for a 12ga, or find some of that frangible stuff.

Frangible ammo is a bad idea, it won't reliably penetrate to the important parts of a bad guy. Just run regular hardball ammo. JHP ammo behaves similar to FMJ after going through a layer of drywall anyway.

Please define that term.

Oops I meant more likely to be legal.

You can use hollowpoints in NJ for home defense.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition “persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . .”
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for “practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.”

Expanding FMJs, or buckshot out of a shotgun.

I'd use EFMJs long before I'd consider Glasers or similar frangiable ammo.

I have a .40 cal and can't use hollow points here. So any recommendations for a good soft lead round good stopping power but less likely to go through walls?

I would say call your local police department and find out what they use, but it looks like you are in the land of "Do as I say, not as I do." I'd still see what they are using and if it is available for you.

Finding out what the local PD uses, is always a good policy. Chances are, they have done their homework and chosen effective ammunition. And it's hard for a prosecutor to paint you as a Rambo wannabe using "cop killer" bullets when you can say that you based your choice off of the decision made by the good guys.

You can use hollowpoints in NJ for home defense.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition “persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . .”
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

Activities contained in N.J.S.A 26:39-6f. can be broken down as follows:

1.A member of a rifle or pistol club organized under rules of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice and which filed its charter with the State Police;
2.A person engaged in hunting or target practice with a firearm legal for hunting in this State;
3.A person going directly to a target range, and;
4.A person going directly to an authorized place for “practice, match, target, trap or skeet shooting exhibitions.”


Oooh where did you find this?

Expanding FMJs, or buckshot out of a shotgun.

I'd use EFMJs long before I'd consider Glasers or similar frangiable ammo.

Explain please.


EDIT: Never Mind

I do have a shotgun just a little big to wield quickly in my place.

What model? Mossberg 500? Remington 870? For $100 or less you can order barrels off the web all day long. Or you can go and buy a used barrel for $40-50 and cut it down.

Shotgun>handgun, every freaking time.

Shotgun>handgun, every freaking time.

Negative, Ghost Rider.

sometimes 15 rounds with another 15 rounds in < 2 seconds between swapping mags is > than 3-5 rounds and a considerably long and noisy reload period.

but maybe that just MY way of looking at it....

Negative, Ghost Rider.

sometimes 15 rounds with another 15 rounds in < 2 seconds between swapping mags is > than 3-5 rounds and a considerably long and noisy reload period.

but maybe that just MY way of looking at it....

If you discharge 5 rounds of 12 ga. 00 buck into a target, and that target isn't immobile, dead, and in three different places, you have fucked up.

Shotgun is more stable, points well, and speaks with more authority, round per round, than any handgun cartridge.

But hey, it's a free country. Use what you want to. I know what I'm reaching for if Crackhead McFelon tries to break into my house. ;)

What model? Mossberg 500? Remington 870? For $100 or less you can order barrels off the web all day long. Or you can go and buy a used barrel for $40-50 and cut it down.

Shotgun>handgun, every freaking time.

I have a Ruger Red Label 20ga. and an Remi 1100.

Ever Fire a sawed off or a short barrel. Holy Chit man!! Kicks like a mule!

Ever Fire a sawed off or a short barrel. Holy Chit man!! Kicks like a mule!

Boo hoo :p You won't notice the kick if you ever have to use it for its intended purpose.

I wouldn't advocate cutting down a nice SxS, of course, and I'm not sure about Rem 1100 barrels. I'd advocate getting a cheap, used pump action and cutting the barrel down for exclusive home defense use.

If you discharge 5 rounds of 12 ga. 00 buck into a target, and that target isn't immobile, dead, and in three different places, you have fucked up.

Shotgun is more stable, points well, and speaks with more authority, round per round, than any handgun cartridge.

But hey, it's a free country. Use what you want to. I know what I'm reaching for if Crackhead McFelon tries to break into my house. ;)

ill play a little bit of devil's advocate...

what if its more than one intruder? what if its 3-4 guys? what happens if your guy is on the move and you miss with a shot? how about if there is a "hostage" type situation where you are facing a guy with a knife to your daughter/dog/wifes throat? what if some guy takes off with your rare, one of a kind autographed Neil Diamond jacket?


i would be more apt to want a more controlled projectile than just spraying a large patten and hoping you hit, or dont hit, someone or something.

Boo hoo :p You won't notice the kick if you ever have to use it for its intended purpose.

I wouldn't advocate cutting down a nice SxS, of course, and I'm not sure about Rem 1100 barrels. I'd advocate getting a cheap, used pump action and cutting the barrel down for exclusive home defense use.

Ruger is an under over. Not a chance its a $1,400 gun. The 110 I can pick up barrel cheap

Go frangible - extreme shock sells great stuff. Won't go through walls to hurt anyone in the next room. If you want penetration and frangible ammo, they make rounds for that as well.

ill play a little bit of devil's advocate...

what if its more than one intruder? what if its 3-4 guys? what happens if your guy is on the move and you miss with a shot? how about if there is a "hostage" type situation where you are facing a guy with a knife to your daughter/dog/wifes throat? what if some guy takes off with your rare, one of a kind autographed Neil Diamond jacket?


i would be more apt to want a more controlled projectile than just spraying a large patten and hoping you hit, or dont hit, someone or something.


Buck shot doesn't spread much at close range. I wouldn't want to take a shot at someone holding a hostage if they were anything other than close range anyways. Someone fleeing I'm not gonna shoot in the back. I live in Jersey they will give me the death penalty even if he did just rape and murder my dog. if I were to shoot someone fleeing I would want a long gun control. I have vast amounts more experience shooting a long gun over a handgun and am very, very accurate with one.

But in my living situation I don't want a loaded shot gun just siting up against the wall.

Go frangible - extreme shock sells great stuff. Won't go through walls to hurt anyone in the next room. If you want penetration and frangible ammo, they make rounds for that as well.

Frangible?

http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=606928&highlight=

if I were to shoot someone fleeing I would want a long gun control. I have vast amounts more experience shooting a long gun over a handgun and am very, very accurate with one.



.257 STW

'nuff said. :flipoff2:

FYI Buckshot will go through a few walls. If you're concerned about over penetration you want a 12 gauge with bird shot. Any 1 to 8 foot indoor range birdshot will mess you up big time.

Best Defense TV did a comparison test using 3 internal walls and 1 exterior wall. Shots taken standing about 6-8 feet from first wall.

9MM HP - went all the way through to outside

.45 cal HP - went all the way through to outside, but less energy than the 9MM

.223 FMJ 55 grain - pretty safe after the second wall, esp if it were HP round instead. The 223 loses energy fast. Surprising that you're safer using a rifle like that over a pistol round.

12 gauge 00 buck - first wall, tight group, about a 3" hole, second wall getting wider to roughly a 10" pattern, third wall a good 2'-3'+ spread but losing a lot of energy by that point.

12 gauge Bird shot - first wall, 3" hole through first wall but did not make it all the way through the second wall.

12 gauge Bird shot - 4 feet shot to a human dummy put a nice 2"pattern in it.

Jordan

ill play a little bit of devil's advocate...

what if its more than one intruder? what if its 3-4 guys? what happens if your guy is on the move and you miss with a shot? how about if there is a "hostage" type situation where you are facing a guy with a knife to your daughter/dog/wifes throat? what if some guy takes off with your rare, one of a kind autographed Neil Diamond jacket?


i would be more apt to want a more controlled projectile than just spraying a large patten and hoping you hit, or dont hit, someone or something.

You're from ARFcom, aren't you?

If it's more than one intruder, and you don't have time to switch guns, or reload, then you switch to that handgun.

If you miss, you have 4 more shots. Don't miss.

Before you start assuming things about what shotgun loads do, I want you to go to your local range, or someplace with a patterning board, and shoot some loads at varying distances. Then worry about your "hostage situation."

If I had a Neil Diamond jacket, hopefully Neil Diamond would be wearing it, and I could shoot him, too.

Shotshells are plenty controlled. The magically expanding shot pattern myth is just that, a myth.

At typical home defense ranges (seven yards or less), with a cylinder bore barrel, you're looking at 3" patterns, at most.

You can come up with all the devil's advocate situations that you want to, and I'm sure you can dream up some hypothetical bullshit where a shotgun with buckshot would not be the best choice, but odds are that in most home defense scenarios, a shotgun is the best choice.

Of course, you also have to practice with that shotgun. You're better off with a .22 revolver that you practice with than you are with a auto-shotgun with a 20 round mag that sits around and looks pretty.

edit: Here (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958) is an excellent thread on terminal performance of various shotshell loads in different bores, as well as some slugs. I'm not sure if I've posted this here before, but it bears review, regardless.

There are several reasons why I won't use anything smaller than #4 buck unless I absolutely have to, and that thread is an excellent visual representation of why I prefer to use 00 buck in 12 ga. I'm more concerned with hitting and stopping a bad guy who is in my house and very close to me than I am with penetrating several layers of drywall and hitting a bystander who is very, very unlikely to be in my line of fire.

extreme shock sells great stuff.
PLEASE tell me you seriously carry the Ginsu Knife of the ammunition world.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

psst... that stuff is crap...

Birdshot doesn't reliably stop a human - even at close range. End.

Go buck (I like 00 or at least something #4 or bigger) or slug.

Shotgun>handgun, every freaking time.

This is where i have a problem. your blanket statement above is a little misleading to those who don't know better and will take it as truth. IT is YOUR opinion and may be your best bet in a self-defense situation in your home. But dont spew your opinion, as fact.

You're from ARFcom, aren't you?

If it's more than one intruder, and you don't have time to switch guns, or reload, then you switch to that handgun.

If you miss, you have 4 more shots. Don't miss.

Before you start assuming things about what shotgun loads do, I want you to go to your local range, or someplace with a patterning board, and shoot some loads at varying distances. Then worry about your "hostage situation."

If I had a Neil Diamond jacket, hopefully Neil Diamond would be wearing it, and I could shoot him, too.

Shotshells are plenty controlled. The magically expanding shot pattern myth is just that, a myth.

At typical home defense ranges (seven yards or less), with a cylinder bore barrel, you're looking at 3" patterns, at most.

You can come up with all the devil's advocate situations that you want to, and I'm sure you can dream up some hypothetical bullshit where a shotgun with buckshot would not be the best choice, but odds are that in most home defense scenarios, a shotgun is the best choice. - i thought you said that everytime a shotgun was better?

Of course, you also have to practice with that shotgun. You're better off with a .22 revolver that you practice with than you are with a auto-shotgun with a 20 round mag that sits around and looks pretty.

edit: Here (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958) is an excellent thread on terminal performance of various shotshell loads in different bores, as well as some slugs. I'm not sure if I've posted this here before, but it bears review, regardless.

There are several reasons why I won't use anything smaller than #4 buck unless I absolutely have to, and that thread is an excellent visual representation of why I prefer to use 00 buck in 12 ga. I'm more concerned with hitting and stopping a bad guy who is in my house and very close to me than I am with penetrating several layers of drywall and hitting a bystander who is very, very unlikely to be in my line of fire.

i could come up with other scenario's i guess, just to play devil's advocate, but whats the point? the odds of the scenarios happening are just as likely as someone actually breaking into your home while you are there, its all very very slim.

FYI, i dont hang out or go to Arfcom (unless i am looking for something off the EE) and i advise those people i know to do the same. i am also very aware of the tight pattern of shotgun shells. though i dont go to ranges, there are other places to pattern a shot. maybe i have underestimated how surgical you are with a pistol-grip shotgun at close range, and maybe you can get the job done NO MATTER WHAT, with 5 shots.

i keep a shotgun loaded in the house for self-defense. The shotgun is by the bed but i dont think its superior in every way to a pistol in all situations.

PLEASE tell me you seriously carry the Ginsu Knife of the ammunition world.

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

psst... that stuff is crap...

How did I miss that gem?

KyleQ, you're an idiot that keeps marketing fags in business.

How did I miss that gem?
I was wondering that myself. It's not like you to let the rest of us beat you to that kind of idiocy.

I run .40SW Federal Hydra-shok.

If you discharge 5 rounds of 12 ga. 00 buck into a target, and that target isn't immobile, dead, and in three different places, you have fucked up.


Or you need to shoot the zombie in da head.

I'm loaded up with turkey shot (#4)... It's pretty effin mean and at 'in home' ranges it will be incapacitating or worse.

It all boils down to what you are comfortable shooting.
2 hits with a .22lr will be more effective than 6 misses with a .357 revolver.

edit: Here (http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958) is an excellent thread on terminal performance of various shotshell loads in different bores, as well as some slugs. I'm not sure if I've posted this here before, but it bears review, regardless.


the box o truth also has some very interesting results using shotshells vs walls.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
also, a good bit of info regarding the pattern.

I have an 18.5" mossberg 500 loaded with 00 buck behind the nightstand. I know that at 10 feet the pattern is consistently the same, and it's about 3". Cylinder bore, smooth barrel.

rabba rabba rabba rabba

Panties in a twist much?

I apologize if any of my posts impugned your abilities, or those of the .40 S&W.

You, um, kind of didn't read through my post very well, didja? Either that, or you just like to argue ;)

the box o truth also has some very interesting results using shotshells vs walls.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm
also, a good bit of info regarding the pattern.



That's interesting. I had always assumed that a close range 1 1/4 OZ dose of lead @1300 FPS or so would stop someone regardless of the shot size.

I've always figured multi .22 HP on target > .44 mag that misses.

Just ordered a 100 rnds of EFMJ for 65.99 plus shipping! :smokin:

Just ordered a 100 rnds of EFMJ for 65.99 plus shipping! :smokin:

I hope you never have to use it ;)

me too.

Go frangible - extreme shock sells great stuff. Won't go through walls to hurt anyone in the next room. If you want penetration and frangible ammo, they make rounds for that as well.
Any "real world" testing info? Every scholarly review/test I've read comes up as inadequate, over prices junk.

The review of it at www.boxotruth.com was pretty amusing. :)

And yeah, every backyard hillbilly *and* scientific-type exam of the stuff I've seen, all agreed with you.

Any "real world" testing info? Every scholarly review/test I've read comes up as inadequate, over prices junk.

How dare you question them? It's not like they make impossible claims, say they make their bullets out of a nonexistent material with a made up name, or photoshop their one tactical model dude in blackface to have a multi-ethnic tactical assault team with 'splodey shit in the background and stuff.

hand gun....speer gold dot hp

rifle. federal tru .223 hp.... small chance of fatal hit after going through a barrier..ie drywall due to 3200 FPS in a 55 grain light weight bullet, it will fragment. and against windshield glass its a joke. works great against us humans though.

home defense....I like a 12 gauge pistol grip in a home but if you miss you can take out someone in the next room with buck shot and you should practice with it with the pistol grip. I have trained that way with the stock folded and extended...

the best buck shot round Ive seen used is federal premium tactical 8pellet buck with the patterned flight control... at 7 yards it looks like a slug but with 8 pellets. it can be used and the pattern is very tight. its a devastating round also

buy a box and shoot some regular buck then this stuff. you will be a believer and everyone Ive shown has been impressed with it.

The review of it at www.boxotruth.com was pretty amusing. :)

And yeah, every backyard hillbilly *and* scientific-type exam of the stuff I've seen, all agreed with you.
Well, the Box Of Truth is the mostest scientifices, shootin'est authority around.

How dare you question them? It's not like they make impossible claims, say they make their bullets out of a nonexistent material with a made up name, or photoshop their one tactical model dude in blackface to have a multi-ethnic tactical assault team with 'splodey shit in the background and stuff.
Sorry. I'll go drink some more Kool-Aid now.




:pinky::emb:

ill play a little bit of devil's advocate...

what if its more than one intruder? what if its 3-4 guys? what happens if your guy is on the move and you miss with a shot? how about if there is a "hostage" type situation where you are facing a guy with a knife to your daughter/dog/wifes throat? what if some guy takes off with your rare, one of a kind autographed Neil Diamond jacket?


i would be more apt to want a more controlled projectile than just spraying a large patten and hoping you hit, or dont hit, someone or something.
Guess you should have bought an AR15 or AK47 then ;)

Guess you should have bought an AR15 or AK47 then ;)

Screw that, a Vickers or Maxim on a wheeled mount.

Screw that, a Vickers or Maxim on a wheeled mount.
*rolls it into haul way*

If ya'all come any closer I'ma gonna cut this whole fawkin house down!

:laughing:

for home defense in my pistol, I use RBCD ammo. It is amazing.
What ever you do, Dont use reloads of any kind. Thats a Lawyers wet dream. Make sure you use an ammo labeled self defense, home defense or something defense. That way the lawyers cant say its killer yada yada ammo.
Another ammo that does not do bad is Powerball. Feeds very well and works well.
Just my $.02.
JM

for home defense in my pistol, I use RBCD ammo. It is amazing.


What ever you do, Dont use reloads of any kind. Thats a Lawyers wet dream. Make sure you use an ammo labeled self defense, home defense or something defense. That way the lawyers cant say its killer yada yada ammo.

Can someone please post up some actual evidence of this? I've never heard or seen of any real, hard facts backing this assertion up. To the best of my knowledge, it's internet rumor and/or a blurb that Mas Ayoob uses to drum up his book sales.

edit: I just did a bit of reading about that RBCD ammo. You may want to read up on it a bit, and maybe change out your carry loads.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Exotic_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-7730.html
http://airbornecombatengineer.typepad.com/airborne_combat_engineer/2004/01/anatomy_of_a_rb.html

I'm not sure if RBCD ammo is still using LeMas bullets, but if they are, general consensus indicates that it's bunk science (and calling it so is doing a disservice to bunk science).

for home defense in my pistol, I use RBCD ammo. It is amazing.

Fueled by the same ninja juice quackery as EXTREME!!!!!!!!111! Shock!!!!!!! ammo.

I have 13 rounds and only 13 rounds of the armour piercing banned shit in my .40

Dad gave them to me. He bought a box before they were banned.

I have tested many differant kinds of ammo. I bought a ballistic gellitan kit and started shooting. I have had very good results with the rbcd ammo. My personal test confirmed it for myself.
Try shooting some, you may be surprised.
JM

I wonder how it would look if you just used 30 rounds of tracers? Humane because the woulds carterized themselves?

I have tested many differant kinds of ammo. I bought a ballistic gellitan kit and started shooting. I have had very good results with the rbcd ammo. My personal test confirmed it for myself.
Try shooting some, you may be surprised.
JM

I think I'll stick to buckshot, gold dots, and golden sabers, thanks. If RBCD ammo proves itself on the market (which so far, it has not) then I'm no worse off than I am now. If RBCD is all show and no go (which seems to be the case) then I feel much, much safer with proven ammunition.

A picture being worth a thousand words and all that...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm

edit: I just did a bit of reading about that RBCD ammo. You may want to read up on it a bit, and maybe change out your carry loads.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19888

I'm not sure if RBCD ammo is still using LeMas bullets, but if they are, general consensus indicates that it's bunk science (and calling it so is doing a disservice to bunk science).

Awesome read.
"These bullets are identical in every respect, down to the elemental level, as commercially produced .223 varmint rifle bullets"

:lmao: So lets take a 40 cent round, put a fancy name on it and charge $2

Before you start assuming things about what shotgun loads do, I want you to go to your local range, or someplace with a patterning board, and shoot some loads at varying distances. Then worry about your "hostage situation."

So you are saying that at 15-20 feet you would use a shotgun with a buckshot load to take a head shot at a ad guy that is using a family member as a shield?

:eek::shaking::eek::shaking:

I have tested many differant kinds of ammo. I bought a ballistic gellitan kit and started shooting. I have had very good results with the rbcd ammo. My personal test confirmed it for myself.
Try shooting some, you may be surprised.
JM

Did you even look at the links?
Your hi-speed rifle ammo is nothing more then standard lead core, copper jacket ammo with a fancy name and high price on it.

I have 13 rounds and only 13 rounds of the armour piercing banned shit in my .40

Dad gave them to me. He bought a box before they were banned.

You know thats going to go straight through the body with very little energy transfer?

Wow, I never should have opened this thread, it is full of fail.

:(

Currently I carry Remington Golden Sabers in .45acp 230-grain JHP. I've been very happy with them.

:lmao: So lets take a 40 cent round, put a fancy name on it and charge $2

If it wasn't for the liability issue, I'd be all over that.

I`ll be sticking with my 00 in my 870P w/mag extension.

For pistol (9mm and 45) personal protection / defense I like HST. Expands very nice!

For my revolver:
38 Special Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135gr. +P Ammo

So you are saying that at 15-20 feet you would use a shotgun with a buckshot load to take a head shot at a ad guy that is using a family member as a shield?

:eek::shaking::eek::shaking:
no, but if they've got a family member as a shield then I've failed already.

Everything has a purpose, and I think a 12G buckshot load is the best general purpose HD load. You're not going to use it with pinpoint precision, but I think it's a good mix between brute force and precision.

If I wanted precision I'd use the AK, but it would go straight through the BG head and then through the exterior walls.

If I wanted precision I'd use the AK, but it would go straight through the BG head and then through the exterior walls.

So would the buckshot.

Awesome read.
"These bullets are identical in every respect, down to the elemental level, as commercially produced .223 varmint rifle bullets"

:lmao: So lets take a 40 cent round, put a fancy name on it and charge $2
I've been following Dr. Gary K. Roberts for years. He use to post on the Tactical Forum but there was some ego drama from the webmaster and Gary left, taking all his info. The down side to that is that some classic discussions were lost.

So would the buckshot.

I disagree.
I've got masonry exterior walls. I've shot brick, the pellets don't have enough mass individually to go through. I'm sure they would if I held the muzzle next to a wall and pulled the trigger, but at 15 feet they don't go through brick.
A little of your own testing goes a long way towards dispelling "I heard it on the Internet"

So you are saying that at 15-20 feet you would use a shotgun with a buckshot load to take a head shot at a ad guy that is using a family member as a shield?

:eek::shaking::eek::shaking:

Nah, I'd stab his bitch ass with my pistol bayonet.

I wonder how it would look if you just used 30 rounds of tracers? Humane because the woulds carterized themselves?

I would have to make the first 5 shots count because I would be laughing too hard afterwards to shoot straight :laughing:

So you are saying that at 15-20 feet you would use a shotgun with a buckshot load to take a head shot at a ad guy that is using a family member as a shield?

:eek::shaking::eek::shaking:

I rent and have two roommates. I am not that attached to either one of them and I know they feel the same way about me :flipoff2:

I use whatever hollowpoints are available. I dont really feel that 0.001" more expansion is worth spending $1 a round and not being able to afford to practice with it. Its pisses me off that I have a hard time finding "normal" hollow point ammo like WWB that doesnt cost $25 for 20 rounds. I will buy what I can when I can and put at least one mag of it through my pistol before loading a couple mags with the rest for home defense.

I disagree.
I've got masonry exterior walls. I've shot brick, the pellets don't have enough mass individually to go through. I'm sure they would if I held the muzzle next to a wall and pulled the trigger, but at 15 feet they don't go through brick.
A little of your own testing goes a long way towards dispelling "I heard it on the Internet"

I was presuming that you had the typical suburbanite shithole stick, foam, and stucco kind of thing going on.


Anyway, I've shot cinder blocks with 7.62x39, .223, 5.45x39, .308 and others.

7.62 fucks up blocks pretty well but doesn't always blow through all the way, .223 and 5.45 make little pock marks with teeny holes in the center, .308 just waves as it cruises on by.

Wow, I never should have opened this thread, it is full of fail.

:(
To the letter what I was going to say.

I was presuming that you had the typical suburbanite shithole stick, foam, and stucco kind of thing going on.


Anyway, I've shot cinder blocks with 7.62x39, .223, 5.45x39, .308 and others.

7.62 fucks up blocks pretty well but doesn't always blow through all the way, .223 and 5.45 make little pock marks with teeny holes in the center, .308 just waves as it cruises on by.

I've not shot any brick with the x39. I imagine it would depend on the angle it hit at, but a straight shot I figured would go through and carry some energy on the other side.
The pellets from 00 buck just bounce off. This was a straight shot, prone, at a stack of bricks very similar to my exterior. Just not enough mass for them to penetrate. Ricochets might be a concern, but I figure once it gets into the wall space it should be contained.

I've not shot any brick with the x39. I imagine it would depend on the angle it hit at, but a straight shot I figured would go through and carry some energy on the other side.
The pellets from 00 buck just bounce off. This was a straight shot, prone, at a stack of bricks very similar to my exterior. Just not enough mass for them to penetrate. Ricochets might be a concern, but I figure once it gets into the wall space it should be contained.
Is the brick on the outside of your house full brick or just 1/2" veneer? Like it matters. Geez.

Is the brick on the outside of your house full brick or just 1/2" veneer? Like it matters. Geez.

What? Are you Bob Fucking Villa now? :flipoff2:

What? Are you Bob Fucking Villa now? :flipoff2:

That no-talent hack? :p

Is the brick on the outside of your house full brick or just 1/2" veneer? Like it matters. Geez.

full brick.
Our house was built in 1936 by a very prominent local lawyer/judge. There were no expenses spared, and when we moved in I found the original floorplan layouts, the original landscaping layouts and a 200 page builders contract with the check register for all of the materials. The man liked to keep records.
Not only is it full brick, but the interior walls are rockboard, rather than your average drywall. It's 1/2" gypsum with another 1/4" of concrete smeared over it for texture.

so yes, my house really is built like a brick shithouse :flipoff2:

Negative, Ghost Rider.

sometimes 15 rounds with another 15 rounds in < 2 seconds between swapping mags is > than 3-5 rounds and a considerably long and noisy reload period.

but maybe that just MY way of looking at it....

Can I ask just who the hell you think you are fighting???.. thought this discussion started over best home defence round... If I'm worried about needing 30 plus rounds for home defence, I either need to go to the range more or move to a safer side of town!!!... I can't think of one home invasion I've hear of lasting 30 rounds... just sayin'...

To the letter what I was going to say.

Wow, I never should have opened this thread, it is full of fail.

:(

AMEN to that!!

Can I ask just who the hell you think you are fighting???.. thought this discussion started over best home defence round... If I'm worried about needing 30 plus rounds for home defence, I either need to go to the range more or move to a safer side of town!!!... I can't think of one home invasion I've hear of lasting 30 rounds... just sayin'...

you are late to the party and obviously you didnt read all this thread or your reading comprehension sucks....

i posted that in response to someone stating that " shotgun>than a pistol, every freakin time"

my point being that you dont know whats going to happen in a home invasion. wouldnt you rather have the extra rounds and not need them, than to need them and not have 'em?

you are late to the party and obviously you didnt read all this thread or your reading comprehension sucks....

i posted that in response to someone stating that " shotgun>than a pistol, every freakin time"

my point being that you dont know whats going to happen in a home invasion. wouldnt you rather have the extra rounds and not need them, than to need them and not have 'em?

I'd rather have the shotgun, Gus :flipoff2:

Obviously, however, if you train with a pistol, use a pistol. I'll contend that with equal training, a shotgun is a more effective and devastating weapon.

you are late to the party and obviously you didnt read all this thread or your reading comprehension sucks....

i posted that in response to someone stating that " shotgun>than a pistol, every freakin time"

my point being that you dont know whats going to happen in a home invasion. wouldnt you rather have the extra rounds and not need them, than to need them and not have 'em?

no i understood perfectly, and I still recommend more range time or move... if you think there is a legitimate need to 30 rounds, it can only be one of two things... a very bad shot with a very dumb criminal(s) to keep coming at you, or you have a very bad gang problem, in which case...move...
** again, I'm not trying to be an ass here, but in every invasion I've read and conversations with numberous LE... none have lasted more then the opening volley from the home owner.

to be fair, when I first responded, I indeed had not read all the thread... I have since desided this is no longer a serious discussion thread.
my parting thought Texas97, I do agree with you that whatever your flavor is, it is better to have something then nothing at all. **SHEEPDOG 24/7**

you are late to the party and obviously you didnt read all this thread or your reading comprehension sucks....

i posted that in response to someone stating that " shotgun>than a pistol, every freakin time"

my point being that you dont know whats going to happen in a home invasion. wouldnt you rather have the extra rounds and not need them, than to need them and not have 'em?

In that case I'd rather have an S12 with two 23 round drums.:)

In that case I'd rather have an S12 with two 23 round drums.:)

there's never such a thing as too much firepower.

no i understood perfectly, and I still recommend more range time or move... if you think there is a legitimate need to 30 rounds, it can only be one of two things... a very bad shot with a very dumb criminal(s) to keep coming at you, or you have a very bad gang problem, in which case...move...
** again, I'm not trying to be an ass here, but in every invasion I've read and conversations with numberous LE... none have lasted more then the opening volley from the home owner.

to be fair, when I first responded, I indeed had not read all the thread... I have since desided this is no longer a serious discussion thread.
my parting thought Texas97, I do agree with you that whatever your flavor is, it is better to have something then nothing at all. **SHEEPDOG 24/7**

Asking people to justify "legitimate need" is the creed of tyrants. Fuck you and your sheepdong attitude.

You know thats going to go straight through the body with very little energy transfer?

If someone breaks into my house, they will receive a full magazine of whatever I have.

Asking people to justify "legitimate need" is the creed of tyrants. Fuck you and your sheepdong attitude.

now who is talking who out of context???.... pull you head out of your ass, I said I agree in the end dipshit :flipoff2:... do what you will, I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 myself.

now who is talking who out of context???.... pull you head out of your ass, I said I agree in the end dipshit :flipoff2:... do what you will, I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 myself.

I love that line!!

now who is talking who out of context???.... pull you head out of your ass, I said I agree in the end dipshit :flipoff2:... do what you will, I'd rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6 myself.

i'll take "I'm out of rebuttals so i'll use cliche's," for 500, Alex...

i'll take "I'm out of rebuttals so i'll use cliche's," for 500, Alex...

lol... that is funny.

as far as the debate goes...

http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_216739_imageset_01?$main-Medium$
http://www.mackspw.com/ProductImages/Large/SRM200C.jpg

i would be willing to bet... statisticly speaking... peeps hit with buckshot during a home invasion will be if not killed at least stopped. i would say that number would fall off sharply when a pistol is involved.