Figured this might be the right place to ask.

At work, a water treatment plant, we have decided to paint the bare concrete floors. We get the go ahead to start prep work, but are given the task of doing it without using chemicals or solvents, because the local wastewater company is monitoring our drains and fining us if our water is out of specific pH range. Whether or not a diluted hydrochloric acid would even remotely trigger the pH range, is irrelevant, apparently...

Various things on the concrete, in different areas.

Oil from our Case forklift. (an various offroad projects we drag into work :p )
Lime powder from the pH adjustment in our treatment process.
Regular gear oil, clear and unused that is occasionally dripped from the 55 gallon drums as people use them.

About the only thing we were given, was Oxidol detergent (for laundry), some Pine Sol and brushes.

To compound matters, the higher ups, have said we are not able to do an acid wash on floor, due to the matter above. Basically, we are being given the task of half-assing it due to certain rules. My question is whether or not anyone can come up with something semi-neutral, maybe biodegradable that would be fine to send down the drain. Something that would work halfway decent (I.e better than detergent), and get it semi-clean enough that we aren't painting the floor every other week because we weren't allowed to do it the right way.

The only other thing we have tried, is our $6000 Landa pressure washer that doesn't to jack. The PSI coming out of it is a joke. On stuff like the Lime, it doesn't even make a dent in things. About the only stuff that works on the Lime, is Pentox, and, of course, that's a big no-no to send down the drain too. :shaking:

Thoughts? Opinions? We're kind of at a loss at this point. This is a city/county facility, so if you work for the government, you know what kind of bone head decisions/problems I am trying to avoid. If you have a friend of a friend, of a second cousin, who knew a guy, who had something that worked, I'm all ears. :(

Back out to deal with it...

Even a good pressure washer isnt going to touch the grease and oil.

You need HEAT to do that.

Look into a good steamer. It will get the job done. Without chemicals.

We have one similar to this at work

http://secure2.data-comm.com/servlet/DCIS/-strse-328812/Steam-Pressure-Washer/Detail

Electric start/controls, but uses a multi-fuel burner for heat. We use it for cleaning equipment as well as our fleet of trucks. Works fantastic.

Even a good pressure washer isnt going to touch the grease and oil.

You need HEAT to do that.

Look into a good steamer. It will get the job done. Without chemicals.

We have one similar to this at work

http://secure2.data-comm.com/servlet/DCIS/-strse-328812/Steam-Pressure-Washer/Detail

Electric start/controls, but uses a multi-fuel burner for heat. We use it for cleaning equipment as well as our fleet of trucks. Works fantastic.


I think what we have might be similar. What do you think?

http://www.landa.com/showProductSeries.aspx?series=15&type=1

If so, we just haven't been having any luck.



What I did find, and curious if anyone has had any luck with it, is this eXIMO concrete cleaner stuff. I'm going to see about ordering some tomorrow. If it works, it would be a nice idea for our home garages too. I did a little reading on it and the MSDS, and it seems pretty decent. I did notice the EPA is, according to them, using it at 50 of their various Superfund sites. I noticed it is safe enough, that they actually dump it into contaminated water systems to help clean them up.

http://www.mycaf.com/eXIMO/eximo.html

Anyone have any first hand experience?

What about blocking the drains, using a shop vac to pick up the chemical wash, and then transferring it to somewhere that it can soak into the ground rather than being outletted to the monitored stream?

What about blocking the drains, using a shop vac to pick up the chemical wash, and then transferring it to somewhere that it can soak into the ground rather than being outletted to the monitored stream?

That, or can you use dawn dish detergent or simple green, elbow grease, and a power washer? They sell various sizes of rubber plugs that you tighten a bolt on to seal drains.

Rustoleum sells a biodegradable etch to be used before painting. I saw it at menards. They have a customer service hotline, you have to wait on the phone FOREVER to get someone. Once you do they are very helpful. I did a garage floor this summer that had just about every kind of fluid leaked on to it that you can imagine for 35 years. I used a 3500psi pressure washer and when working slowly, I mean VERY slowly with a 15 degree nozzle a couple of inches away I was able to get 99.9 percent of the stains to disappear.

There is a process, been around for about ten years or so, that uses 'dry ice' to blast away stains, etc. on concrete. I use to work around 'bunker oil', the stuff that ships use in the their propulsion (boiler) system. Bunker oil will set up like cement and this high pressure dry ice system took it off like ice cream on a hot surface. Check it out. Also, while writing this I thought of soda blasting. Both systems are mobile and will come to your site. good luck.

If the decison makers don't want the job done right, give them the poor job they want. No use trying to change the minds of idiots that have "power". Just make sure you point out that the time spent will be wasted. Then later on once things start falling apart remind the idiots they didn't heed your advice. That typically gets a rise out of people.

Tell everyone to pull their heads out of their asses and use the hydrochloric acid. Somebody somewhere that works with you has had general chemistry and understands that it can be neutralized.

Also, if you have lime on the floor, your chemical hygiene plan needs to be reviewed. Hopefully, someone recognizes that lime will not only raise the pH of the discharges, but it will also neutralize the HCl.

Whatever you do, don't dump HCl floor wash rinse outside unless it has been neutralized, or you'll be in far bigger trouble.

Thanks for all the replies.


What about blocking the drains, using a shop vac to pick up the chemical wash, and then transferring it to somewhere that it can soak into the ground rather than being outletted to the monitored stream?

This is kind of what we did last night. We use a small about of Pentox descaler and shop vac'ed it out and put it to our waste process. Good idea, it's just that no one above wants it done that way.

Rustoleum sells a biodegradable etch to be used before painting. I saw it at menards. They have a customer service hotline, you have to wait on the phone FOREVER to get someone. Once you do they are very helpful. I did a garage floor this summer that had just about every kind of fluid leaked on to it that you can imagine for 35 years. I used a 3500psi pressure washer and when working slowly, I mean VERY slowly with a 15 degree nozzle a couple of inches away I was able to get 99.9 percent of the stains to disappear.

I'll pass this along. One of the problems, is that there are too many hands doing one simple project. We have me, who does water chemistry, doing flooring. An environmental compliance section reviewing. A paint shop with painters choosing the paint (which I don't have a lot of confidence in, hence me and my shift partners doing the work), Managers above me, being extremely conservative on sending anything down the sanitary drain to the wastewater people.

There is a process, been around for about ten years or so, that uses 'dry ice' to blast away stains, etc. on concrete. I use to work around 'bunker oil', the stuff that ships use in the their propulsion (boiler) system. Bunker oil will set up like cement and this high pressure dry ice system took it off like ice cream on a hot surface. Check it out. Also, while writing this I thought of soda blasting. Both systems are mobile and will come to your site. good luck.

I definitely will pass this on too. I was thinking there was a professional outfit that could come in, with the right equipment, and do it the right way, within compliance specs. The lime almost sets like concrete at times too. Thanks, wouldn't have ever thought about a dry ice blast.

Tell everyone to pull their heads out of their asses and use the hydrochloric acid. Somebody somewhere that works with you has had general chemistry and understands that it can be neutralized.

Also, if you have lime on the floor, your chemical hygiene plan needs to be reviewed. Hopefully, someone recognizes that lime will not only raise the pH of the discharges, but it will also neutralize the HCl.

Whatever you do, don't dump HCl floor wash rinse outside unless it has been neutralized, or you'll be in far bigger trouble.

We all have chemistry degrees, we know exactly what happens, but there is way more to it that simple chemistry. The Wastewater people are complaining because it is costing them, according to them, to treat our waste discharge that goes out our sanitary drains. We have no easy way to take a sample downstream and take it in the lab to test. Furthermore, we have no way to stop the effluent flow to them and treat it. It's a whole mess. Not only all that, they are actually complaining about the amount of water we are sending down to them. It's been to court already, and we installed a flow meter, just to double check what they are saying.

As for the hygiene, easier said than done. This is a hydrated lime process that batches with water in this room... powder gets everywhere, even though there are vacuum systems in place. We are almost batching the the lime solution on a continuous basis; this is a plant that does 180MGD.

As far as dumping it outside, that is the best way for us. We have industrial wastewater ponds that we use. They are a tier of three ponds that we can use to hold water in, treat the water to EPA regs, and discharge back into the river. In addition to our state licenses for Water Treatment, we have Industrial Wastewater as well, for this very reason. The problem goes back to getting this stuff to the ponds, since the rooms we are doing all have the sanitary floor drains. If we were doing stuff in the chemical containment areas, this would be an easy one.

We all have chemistry degrees, we know exactly what happens, but there is way more to it that simple chemistry. The Wastewater people are complaining because it is costing them, according to them, to treat our waste discharge that goes out our sanitary drains. We have no easy way to take a sample downstream and take it in the lab to test. Furthermore, we have no way to stop the effluent flow to them and treat it. It's a whole mess. Not only all that, they are actually complaining about the amount of water we are sending down to them. It's been to court already, and we installed a flow meter, just to double check what they are saying.

As for the hygiene, easier said than done. This is a hydrated lime process that batches with water in this room... powder gets everywhere, even though there are vacuum systems in place. We are almost batching the the lime solution on a continuous basis; this is a plant that does 180MGD.

As far as dumping it outside, that is the best way for us. We have industrial wastewater ponds that we use. They are a tier of three ponds that we can use to hold water in, treat the water to EPA regs, and discharge back into the river. In addition to our state licenses for Water Treatment, we have Industrial Wastewater as well, for this very reason. The problem goes back to getting this stuff to the ponds, since the rooms we are doing all have the sanitary floor drains. If we were doing stuff in the chemical containment areas, this would be an easy one.


WHAT THE FUCK? I worked industrial EH&S compliance for 20 years for really uptight cvmpanies (all CERCLA PRPs). Somebody has to pull their heads out of their ass as you're not able to work under the scenario described.

As for the lime, I ran WWTPs from little tiny ones to MGPM nuclear plants, we were able to keep the floor clean. I can't imagine the presence oft reatment chemicals on he floor is tolerated. It wouldn't be if I were running the show, but you'd also have real-world chemical handling practices.

Sounds hard, you should give up. Given your inability to handle such a simple job, I'm glad you're not doing emergency response, clean up or remediation. It would be WAY too hard for you. The stories I could tell you about doing such things, would burn off both your little ears (apologies to Jerry Garcia)

WHAT THE FUCK? I worked industrial EH&S compliance for 20 years for really uptight cvmpanies (all CERCLA PRPs). Somebody has to pull their heads out of their ass as you're not able to work under the scenario described.


You would think you would be able to string a sentence or two together with an idea with all your experience, huh?

I'll stop you at your last sentence quoted above. We don't have the option to not get it done under the scenario described. I don't understand why that's so hard for you to grasp. In 20 years, you would think you would have encountered real world experiences where bosses tell you to do shit and it's not right... but you have to do it anyways.

So, I can either tell the people above me to "pull their heads out of their ass", which is a stupid fucking idea, or I can do what I am doing and try to make the best decision given the parameters I have.

I'll send you a PM, in private, to let you know what I really think of you and your post. No sense in sending a good thread down the pipe due to one idiot (you).

:shaking:

Just to make sure that everyone knows what sort of a person our friend corn-SMuggler is, he sent me a PM wherein he threatened to kick my ass.

Nice guy, making threats from behind a keyboard.

But, I suppose if you're not smart enough to do your job without coming to a place like Pirate, this is how you respond.

The scientists and engineers I worked with were able to work around production, nuclear reactors, big fires, high voltage, nasty chemicals, etc.

We never got stopped by fears of such things.

Now for some solutions.

Plug the floor drains and use shop vacs. Seems pretty simple to me. If you can't plug them, dyke around them and throw a piece of plastic over the floor drain and pile kitty litter on it, build a dyke around it.

Gee, that sure sounds hard! There are solutions to simple problems like this one, but clearly, they all exceed the intellectual capabiltiy of the entire staff where you work.

Without being able to think quickly, you'd never have lasted around any of my employers.

BTW-my address is on the website listed in my profile. When shall I expect to see you?

BTW-my address is on the website listed in my profile. When shall I expect to see you?

Haven't we already gone throught this twice on pirate recently. Giving out your address and issuing challenges may qualify you for the genius of the year award.

Haven't we already gone throught this twice on pirate recently. Giving out your address and issuing challenges may qualify you for the genius of the year award.

Like I'm worried. He was the one who made the threat, I just didn't back down.

Just to make sure that everyone knows what sort of a person our friend corn-SMuggler is, he sent me a PM wherein he threatened to kick my ass.

Nice guy, making threats from behind a keyboard.

But, I suppose if you're not smart enough to do your job without coming to a place like Pirate, this is how you respond.


What I said, is that I will ask you in person, if we meet at a Pirate function. I then said, if you talk to me in the same manner above, I will whip your ass... as would any male on this board. You're a pussy with a keyboard and I'm pretty sure everyone sees that. Unlike you, I took this private like two men should; you posting this in public is like running from a fight. If we meet one day and you don't act like you have your head up your ass, we don't have a problem. If you do though, we do have a problem. All the real men on here understand this; I doubt you do, since you ran to drag my PM public. I'm actually embarrassed for you.


The scientists and engineers I worked with were able to work around production, nuclear reactors, big fires, high voltage, nasty chemicals, etc.

We never got stopped by fears of such things.


What the hell does this have to do with anything. You have no first hand knowledge of our equipment, the chemicals, the facility, the lawsuit we lost, etc. You're some random idiot with a keyboard, the internet and the power to be a complete asshat from the safety of your office. 100% guarantee you don't talk like this to anyone on this board, in person. That's why you're pathetic.


Now for some solutions.

Plug the floor drains and use shop vacs. Seems pretty simple to me. If you can't plug them, dyke around them and throw a piece of plastic over the floor drain and pile kitty litter on it, build a dyke around it.

Gee, that sure sounds hard! There are solutions to simple problems like this one, but clearly, they all exceed the intellectual capabiltiy of the entire staff where you work.

Without being able to think quickly, you'd never have lasted around any of my employers.

BTW-my address is on the website listed in my profile. When shall I expect to see you?


You don't offer up one single solution. That's already been talked about above, it's been done, and it doesn't work as well as we need. It's also, as I've already said, been nixed by those in charge. I don't know any other way, other than English, to make you comprehend this.

As for the rest, do you really think you know the first thing about me? Again, unfortunately, you and other idiots are allowed to get on the internet and post.

What's the root problem in this post? Me, who is nice and courteous, thanking everyone for their input (minus you), or you, who comes on here being the typical Pirate ass who brings nothing to the conversation. Save the rest of us the trouble of reading your drivel, get lost.




BTW, too all the other cool guys who offered up ideas, it looks as though the dry ice blast is getting the approval. It seems to be the safest thing since is sublimates on contact with most surfaces and is safe to use around our computer systems and electronics. This should be the easiest way, I'm thinking, to avoid the sanitary drains, be gentle enough around electronics, rough enough to get the scale off and avoid going back to court for breaking the terms of our settlement. I'm thinking all that is left after the blast, is to simply sweep up the remains, put it in a drum, label it, and have Environmental come out and dispose of it properly.

I have used this stuff with pretty good results on oil stained concrete. Probably won't touch the lime.
http://uniquemm.com/grime-eater.html
What treatment plant do you work for? I work on the pump equipment for a number of the plants in the Denver area.

-Joel

Some good ideas presented thus far, most will work on drive ways, garage floors to remove surface laitence and leave kinda looking clean. If the intent is to install either an epoxy or urethane floor coating proper surface prep is critical. there are a few technologies on the commercial market to adequately remove oils from contaminated slabs, soap is for dishes. We have had success using a live microb degreaser from KTMicrobial, they take live microbs and scrub them onto the floor, they ingest the oils and then die. A rinse with potable water a few times and you are ready to continue. www.ktmicrobialproducts.com

The next best is a mechanical removal of teh contaminated surface - shotblasting is a clean, self contained system that is fantastic!

if full oil extraction is not possible (check using a black light when damp), you can look into an oil saturation barrier coating. the best we have seen is Aquafin's SG2 www.aquafin.net it is a full barrier system for oils, grease and organic contaminants, as well as an alkali blocker. The second concern when coating contaminated slabs is alkali attack at the bond line. typical concrete should be around a pH of 12, at 13 most traditional chemistries (epoxies, urethanes, latex, some asphalt emulsions) will begin to degrade and revert, at 14 a failure is almost certain. This is accelerated by the presence of liquid and vapor water in the slab (common in any wtp/wwtp setting).

ICRI.org has a really good database of contractors and manufacturer's that can help. A few coating manufacturer's you can lean on for great support are Tnemec (the best in the industry), Sherwin Williams (they own General Polymers, a great system) Dex-O-Tex a fantastic full line coatings system, Neogard.

Good Luck!