As some may recall I am having issues getting any vehicle other than a car in my garage the people who made it obviously did not account for anything really driving in there :( The header is 12"x4" and is the lowest point in the entry way, I don't recall height off top of my head but it's under 7' for sure.

I am wondering if I can replace that 12"x4" header with a steel header that is not nearly as tall... what about 4"x4" 3/8" wall square tube? Or 4"x6"(wide) 3/8" wall square tube? The walls are 2x6 so there's really not 6" width but it can stick a bit out width wise, unless 5.5" square tube is cheaper.

Anyone know if this is possible ? or if there is a guide someplace that says what steel can replace wood with ???

It might make the engineers cringe, but I would be inclined to slap a piece of flat plate 6 inches wide by 1/4" thick the length of it on both sides if possible. Id use through bolts to clamp it all together and then cut the wood header down to the plate.

give me the size of your garage (opening too) and the roofing details (and if you store crap in there) and I will tell you, even engineer it and stamp it for you of you give me beer :p

Just playing, a 3x5x3/16" is somewhat similiar to the 4x12 (just guessing all your details)

give me the size of your garage (opening too) and the roofing details (and if you store crap in there) and I will tell you, even engineer it and stamp it for you of you give me beer :p

Seriously, I should be engineering a house right now but don't really feel like it, go grab a tape and post up some info and I'll tell ya right now..

:smokin: Getting info and pics now.
If you want PM me your e-mail.

Thanks much!
-Todd

The garage is 24'x24' with a second story.

The Walls are 2x6.
The upstairs walls are 2x4.

The floor for the 2nd story is on 2x12s and 24" on center. These rest on the side walls, and a beefy looking center support, supported by the following too.

There are two 5.5"x5" supports in the CENTER of the garage for the second story.

One garage door opening: 100" Wide x 82" H
Second garage door opening: 90" Wide x 82" H.

I have room, if I can safely I'd like to open the second one 6" to be about 94" or 96" opening, and the first one to be 102".

The reason I ask about 4"x4" is I believe I have a few 4x4x3/8" square tube already. It may be 3x3 I`m not 100%. I also have some 5x5 (maybe 4x4? lol) that is 1/4" wall. If I can use either that I have that would be awesome :smokin:

The roof is not what you see often (depending where you live), it's gambrel. And there is a SMALL, 2' crawl space above the second story.

Here are some pics.

Front View
Side View
Headers (inside)
Upstairs (partially - you get the idea).

I`m not too sure but other people's garages I've seen the headers sit on more than one 2x6/2x4, so they may not even be done correctly right now. That wouldn't surprise me. There is plenty room to add a few more 2x6s for them to sit on too.

More pics coming.

More pics.

The header near the stairs is on the OPPOSITE side of the garage than the garage doors. I just thought I'd show the other side, I`m guessing this header is for the second story,and the front of the garage may have it too, but behind the drywall.

You can also see the center supports, and 1st story ceiling 2x12s in the pics.

I need another picture in the inside of how the floor joist are running and if the are full span, and where the supports are. Gotta admit this is a tad more than I was planning on :p

EDIT: ya beat me to it..

Still guessing a few things and approximating but if the 4x12 was designed right (it hasn't fell down yet) then a 4x4x1/4" should also work.. (the 3/8 would be much better)

Dang, that is my dream garage! :drool:

I`m not sure if it matters for garage door headers but we do get snow as I`m sure you know :) but just wanted to be sure.

I've seen 2'+ up there, and we haven't had any REALLY bad storms. One side rarely gets sun, and it can sit there for weeks so if we had a bad storm I guess there could be 3'-4', not too sure if you get rating by county, or city. If by city then I know Georgetown is way too low.

I need another picture in the inside of how the floor joist are running and if the are full span, and where the supports are. Gotta admit this is a tad more than I was planning on :p

EDIT: ya beat me to it..

:smokin:

No rush, I super appreciate it.

I've been told by a couple construction folk that the floor is a bit overkill with the 2x12's and the center support. Not sure if you feel the same way, but I'd like your opinion :) I plan to store a bunch of shit up there lo l!

I need another picture in the inside of how the floor joist are running and if the are full span, and where the supports are. Gotta admit this is a tad more than I was planning on :p

EDIT: ya beat me to it..

Still guessing a few things and approximating but if the 4x12 was designed right (it hasn't fell down yet) then a 4x4x1/4" should also work.. (the 3/8 would be much better)

Dang, that is my dream garage! :drool:

Truthfully it doesn't even look like there is a load on the center of the 4x12. I see air almost entirely from side to side, not to mention it seems interesting that it's sitting on only 1 2x4 on each side not 2+ like I've seen most sitting on.

I`m going to go check and see what my steel is I have :smokin:

Well I can really engineer it, the numbers I used for floor load were low, you'd want atleast 40psf if your storing crap there, I had to drop that down quite a bit to get the 4x12 to work first, then I tried tube steel. I basically assumed if the 4x12 was good then an equivalent strength tube steel would work - I didn't actually engineer the 4x12..

No such thing as overkill, but if you want to know what it can hold I can tell you that. That might just require more than beer now though he he

Truthfully it doesn't even look like there is a load on the center of the 4x12. I see air almost entirely from side to side, not to mention it seems interesting that it's sitting on only 1 2x4 on each side not 2+ like I've seen most sitting on.

I`m going to go check and see what my steel is I have :smokin:


It is carrying the weight of half of the length of your floor joist plus anything loaded on that floor halfway between that beam going the direction of your door and the door itself, as well as the wall above it and half of the roof..

Of course there is some redundancy in there with all the plywood etc etc etc but that is how I looked at it. The jack stud (one under the beam) is nailed to the king stud and the king stud is nailed to that beam so they are both carrying it..

EDIT: Wait, maybe I am seeing your joist going the different direction?? Looking closer..

Are they parallel or perpindicular? I think your floor is carried by that beam in the middle and carried to a point load between your doors, but that wall (and the headers) are still carrying the wall above and a large part of the roof load transfers to that wall. Anyhoo, I am basically just comparing loaded 4x12 with 4x4 tube steel regardless of your structure and you should be fine, If your worried I can look closer at it and maybe another bored engineer can chime in.

BTW, that is ED county still right? If so you can put in your parcel number on their web site and get the ground snow load FYI, really cool they do that as most don't and it is a pain to figure..

Pics look like it is built pretty stout, how far is the first post from your garage door?

Well I have 3x3x3/8x8' and 4x4x1/4x9'.

I don't mind selling a couple of either to buy the "RIGHT" stuff, if they are not.

EDIT:

OR

Buying it to overkill it, and be safer.
I'd like to be able to store shit up on the second story and not worry, heavy parts...

If I go 5x5 that still gives me a gain of 6" overhead since the 12" header measures out 11" and steel is true.

Well I can really engineer it, the numbers I used for floor load were low, you'd want atleast 40psf if your storing crap there, I had to drop that down quite a bit to get the 4x12 to work first, then I tried tube steel. I basically assumed if the 4x12 was good then an equivalent strength tube steel would work - I didn't actually engineer the 4x12..

No such thing as overkill, but if you want to know what it can hold I can tell you that. That might just require more than beer now though he he

If i've given you enough info to let me know what I can store on the second story as far as total weight I'm a geek and would love to know that :laughing:

If you are referring to what a specific header can support, I don't really need to know that, just what size I need to be overkill so I can load-up my second story :p

Let me know what you need, 4x4 parts, web hosting for your sites?, web work, etc,.. cash, let me know and we can work something out I think :):)

Garage door headers are parallel to floor joists, and perpendicular to center support cutting building in half (between garage doors).

So there is 22.25" between the floor joist, and the other floor joist above the header.

This pic:
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=492177&d=1262843048



Yes, ED County.
But I don't see that on my parcel lookup.

That's a lot of work needed...


Have you tried just using a smaller for the rear two tires?
I'm thinking junkyard spares @ $20 a pair.

That's a lot of work needed...


Have you tried just using a smaller for the rear two tires?
I'm thinking junkyard spares @ $20 a pair.

What's a lot of work?

Replacing the header?

Engineering it properly?

I`ll most likely only replace the header on ONE side, and completely close-off the other side as it will be my workshop side.

Pics look like it is built pretty stout, how far is the first post from your garage door?

I`m guessing 6'.
I don't have that measurement in front of me.

http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/building/request_snow_load.asp

yea, not really carrying the second floor but still load transfer from the wall/roof

Deflection is the issue, so getting something rectangular would help more but

This loading is now wrong, I'll play a bit but this is just 4x12 compared to tube steel

EDIT: can't upload pdf's, email me at Brandon@WhiteKnuckleMotorsports.net

I'd like to know what's hiding behind that sheetrock, any chance you have pics?

Gee, maybe I need a yellow star and can start pimping my engineering :smokin: :grinpimp:

I can't say I have mixed square tube with framing like that so I'd have to think about how to do the connections, post cap to a 4x4 and sandwich it so there is a connection or something but weight wise that 4x4 will do the trick and save a ton of clearance..

http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/building/request_snow_load.asp

yea, not really carying the second floor but still load transfer from the wall/roof

Deflection is the issue, so getting something rectangular would help more but

This loading is now wrong, I'll play a bit but this is just 4x12 compared to tube steel

EDIT: can't upload pdf's, email me at Brandon@WhiteKnuckleMotorsports.net

I'd like to know what's hiding behind that sheetrock, any chance you have pics?

Gee, maybe I need a yellow star and can start pimping my engineering :smokin: :grinpimp:

Sent e-mail.

FYI: The Ground Snow (Pg) is: Pg = 71 lbs/sq. ft

Engineering it properly?.


Yea, that is going to cost you one milllllllion dollars :eek: :grinpimp:

http://www.co.el-dorado.ca.us/building/request_snow_load.asp

yea, not really carying the second floor but still load transfer from the wall/roof

Deflection is the issue, so getting something rectangular would help more but

This loading is now wrong, I'll play a bit but this is just 4x12 compared to tube steel

EDIT: can't upload pdf's, email me at Brandon@WhiteKnuckleMotorsports.net

I'd like to know what's hiding behind that sheetrock, any chance you have pics?

Gee, maybe I need a yellow star and can start pimping my engineering :smokin: :grinpimp:

I know the back wall, (above the header near the stairs - pic) is 2x4s. The front I would assume is the same.

The roof supports are 2x6s.

Behind the SIDE drywall upstairs is the 2x6 roof, and sheathing.

I`m not sure what the crawlspace bracing is made of. I can get a ladder up there tomorrow and take pics, and measurements. It's dark and no lights other than flash, and no ladder up there it's somewhere outside.

Ridge beam? Collar tie?

Doesn't really matter, just curious. Second floor is build but that is a little light for snow load on the roof. Anyway, nice score there. I could reverse engineer the whole thing to tell you what kind of loads it can handle I suppose but just comparing header to header that 4x4 is fine, as you said it isn't even touching more than likely. What it is designed for and what it sees are sometimes different and more than likely it really wasn't actually "engineered".

Nope, never seen a roof like that before..

http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-For-Boys/images/Fig-284-Gambrel-Roof.jpg

A type of truss, so there is no ridge beam carrying weight to the wall etc. So.. really not much weight at all on that 4x12, just half the floor to the floor joist and the wall above it.

Measure the spacing on the floor joist and I can give you an idea what they can carry (if 16" OC they can carry 110PSF, that is a lot!)

Ridge beam? Collar tie?

Doesn't really matter, just curious. Second floor is build but that is a little light for snow load on the roof. Anyway, nice score there. I could reverse engineer the whole thing to tell you what kind of loads it can handle I suppose but just comparing header to header that 4x4 is fine, as you said it isn't even touching more than likely. What it is designed for and what it sees are sometimes different and more than likely it really wasn't actually "engineered".

Nope, never seen a roof like that before..

http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-For-Boys/images/Fig-284-Gambrel-Roof.jpg

As far as I can tell... mine does not have the "E" or "D" that are in that drawing, and my ceiling starts at the - to the left of D in the drawing. I`m guessing this is why I have that large header near the stairs, essentially the 2nd story walls (which are the roof) just sit on the second story, as if it were a first it looks like, and also probably why the 2nd story floor joists are so beefy.


So you think the 4x4x.250" is enough or should I sell 2 and get a 3/8" walled one???

I gotta figure out to "use" the steel too still.

Measure the spacing on the floor joist and I can give you an idea what they can carry..


Sorry, what spacing?

The floor joists (that the second story floor is on) are 24" on center, which measured to 22.25" between them.

From a previous post.
More info on Floor Joists.

(Carried over to page 2 for ease of reference.)

The floor for the 2nd story is on 2x12s and 24" on center. These rest on the side walls, and a beefy looking center support, supported by the following too.

There are two 5.5"x5" supports in the CENTER of the garage for the second story.

Whatever it is, if there is no ridge beam it is a type of truss and that means that your wall is not really carrying your roof (well not the one with the doors), and that really has no affect on your joist, just the walls directly under the second story (F). The joist are just to carry load (storage), half going to the outside walls and half going to the center which is going down to the columns. Roof load goes right down to the walls under (perpindicular to your garage doors).

I'd be tempted to give it a one-two-brick cinder-block and cement lift. Run some plywood lengthways around the inside walls to solidify the shear, drop in some angle braces to keep it square, and work with some buddies with floor jacks and cribbing. An old-fashioned barn-raising! :laughing: :groan: :laughing:

That looks like a cement floor... is it a monolithic slab, or can you just lower the non-workshop floor (where the vehicle will go?)

Randii

From a previous post.
More info on Floor Joists.

(Carried over to page 2 for ease of reference.)

Ok 70 PSF now, still a lot.. Assuming even loading that's 70 x 24 x 24 = 40,320 #

All of your load goes to the posts in the center, some to the outside walls (not the door ones) and then some to the posts in the wall between the doors. VERY little is going to that header at all, you can probably just cut your 4x12 down but then your risking deflection just under it's own weight, go for the 4x4 and box it in with a 2x4 below and a 2x8 on the inside so you don't see the steel and so it is not going to go anywhere if it does see some load..

I might be missing something not seeing it in person but you can probably just snap a line and cut whatever you want from that 4x12 (did an engineer just say that, eek..)

Whatever it is, if there is no ridge beam it is a type of truss and that means that your wall is not really carrying your roof (well not the one with the doors), and that really has no affect on your joist, just the walls directly under the second story (F). The joist are just to carry load (storage), half going to the outside walls and half going to the center which is going down to the columns. Roof load goes right down to the walls under (perpindicular to your garage doors).

I believe there is a 2x6 ridge beam. A ridge beam would be a beam in the center of the roof 2x6s? I`ll get up there in the AM, and take pics.

I'd be tempted to give it a one-two-brick cinder-block and cement lift.

That looks like a cement floor... is it a monolithic slab, or can you just lower the non-workshop floor (where the vehicle will go?)

Randii

Mono slab.

Ok 70 PSF now, still a lot.. Assuming even loading that's 70 x 24 x 24 = 40,320 #

That amount of weight is just amazing. Although I can't imagine it building up that much on the sides, but I have seen a little over 2' on it all so you never know :eek:

Ok 70 PSF now, still a lot.. Assuming even loading that's 70 x 24 x 24 = 40,320 #

All of your load goes to the posts in the center, some to the outside walls (not the door ones) and then some to the posts in the wall between the doors. VERY little is going to that header at all, you can probably just cut your 4x12 down but then your risking deflection just under it's own weight, go for the 4x4 and box it in with a 2x4 below and a 2x8 on the inside so you don't see the steel and so it is not going to go anywhere if it does see some load..

I might be missing something not seeing it in person but you can probably just snap a line and cut whatever you want from that 4x12 (did an engineer just say that, eek..)

If I`m reading you right.

2x4 horizontal on the bottom, sitting on 2x6s vertical (holding it up) with the 4x4 Steel horizontal on top and the 4x8 vertical short-wise on inside of garage hiding the 4x4 steel, and covering the 2x4 under it.

That makes sense :laughing:

Not to get off track...
Speaking of headers... my house is the same roof style, and my 8' slider has no header, my 5' window has no header. Took me a couple holes to realize my vertical blinds were gonna have to use drywall anchors :eek:

Also FWIW, I bought a bunch of 2x6s to double up my side walls. They are not much $, and I`m going to be drilling them for electrical, figured I'd go strong. + I can use them to hang heavy shit from too :D

no, that amount is for your SECOND FLOOR, not your roof...

I don't think your roof can hold that much ;)

Yea, the boxing allows the sheathing outside to be nailed and just ties it in. I can believe no header, it really isn't load bearing, well just the wall above it.

I am sure I read over it (I'll look back) but what is your roof rafter spacing? Approximately 35 PSF roof load capacity (assuming 16" OC), and there are reductions for slope, sun, etc to your snow load but your really probably under designed on the roof. Not that I think it is going to go anywhere..

I'd be tempted to give it a one-two-brick cinder-block and cement lift. Run some plywood lengthways around the inside walls to solidify the shear, drop in some angle braces to keep it square, and work with some buddies with floor jacks and cribbing. An old-fashioned barn-raising! :laughing: :groan: :laughing:

That looks like a cement floor... is it a monolithic slab, or can you just lower the non-workshop floor (where the vehicle will go?)

Randii

Then wait for the next wind to come blow it away :flipoff2:

no, that amount is for your SECOND FLOOR, not your roof...

Oh gotcha, so I could pretty much park a car on my 2nd story floor and be ok :eek:

I don't think your roof can hold that much ;)

Yea, the boxing allows the sheathing outside to be nailed and just ties it in. I can believe no header, it really isn't load bearing, well just the wall above it.

I am sure I read over it (I'll look back) but what is your roof rafter spacing? Approximately 35 PSF roof load capacity (assuming 16" OC), and there are reductions for slope, sun, etc to your snow load but your really probably under designed on the roof. Not that I think it is going to go anywhere..

I don't believe I posted the roof rafter spacing.

If you are talking about the distance between the rafters that the roof sheathing is on then I believe it's 24", if you are talking about the rafters in the ceiling above the 2nd story I don't know.

I do know when they roofed my garage and house they had a lift and every shingle was stacked on my roof in a few spots all at once. So it must be pretty sturdy :eek:

Then wait for the next wind to come blow it away :flipoff2:
Tie it back down once you've got it jacked up. :p

I got some pics, and was surprised :D

The roof looks like 2x8s, above the second story crawl space, and the roof is 2x6 on the "sides"/lower than the crawl space.

7.5' from the front of garage (where doors are) to the first vertical support in center of garage.

PICS coming soon :D

Definitely a cool little shop. I want one but 9'10 ceilings in on the main floor !

Definitely a cool little shop. I want one but 9'10 ceilings in on the main floor !

That'd be nice :D

So, i`m picking up my new steal header tomorrow... just a minor delay :laughing:

I`m going to go with 4x4 3/8" wall or 5x5 3/8" wall steel tube.

So..
5x5x3/8 = 250$
5x5x1/4 = $150

What do you think Brandon? Fine with 1/4" or go 3/8" and not worry :D

Hey, your tomorrow is the same as my tomorrow! :lmao:

If all things are the same other than just the beam, the 4x12x8' is much weaker than the 1/4" but would fail for different reasons. I am also guessing on the grade of steel but it wouldn't make that much of a difference really.

The connection is going to be funky though, strap that thing to the post and either bolt through or weld the strap to the metal beam at a minimum. Welded steel columns would even be better since your losing more in lack of shear transfer by doing this than vertical load and the steel columns would make a moment frame. Don't see much steel beam wood post, usually the other way around...

Cool project, one of these days I should write up a comparison so anyone that wanted to do the same could feel comfortable doing it. If I remember right though your floor was going the same direction as that header so your really not carrying much load to the header other then the little bit transferred to the wall from the roof and a small sliver from the floor.

*Note: I didn't visually inspect etc. so replacing that beam is not guaranteed to work :p If it has some sort of problem don't blame me ;)

What if he pulled the two 2x4 studs out the hold the wood beam up and replace them with a 2x3x0.25 or 2x4x0.25 A36 rectangular tube?

He could then bolt the verticle tube through the supporting beam in 2-3 spots to keep it from shifting, and then either bolt or weld the square tube header to the steel uprights.

It is hard to see, but my guess is that there is an end joist above the header (built into the wall at the same point as the floor joists) which is also resting on the beam and is supporting the wall above the floor. I really doubt that the door header is doing much of anything - particularly with it resting on only a single 2x stud. However, without seeing it in person or without better photos I'm not going to say "Ya, sure, take the thing out!" :)

If there is an end joist, you really only need something that isn't going to sag under its own weight to run across above the door to tie to the sheathing. You could make sure that the top plate is nailed up into the end joist to keep it solid and have clearance the whole way up to there.

Again, I'd need better pictures before I'd say to go ahead with this course of action.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the built up 2x column thing you have going on unless it is through-bolted. Even then, I much prefer using a metal column or a solid wood post.

Thanks guys :D

I almost ripped out the entire framed opening including header last week with the tractor bucket moving shit out of the garage... nothing collapsed, and I just pushed it back into place. Appears not much if any weight is on it :laughing:

My plan was to weld up both ends, and put 2(2x4) under the right and left ends, then 1 full length screwed into the plate I welded to the ends. Box it on the inside with wood screwed into the steel, and the sheathing screwed in from outside. The steel shouldn't go anywhere.

As I say, if the piece I'm pointing to is an end joist that is bearing on the center beam, you can eliminate the "header" altogether and have your opening go the whole way up to the end joist eliminating the need for any steel at all - although I'd keep the double top plate, nail it solidly into the joist above it, and use that as the top framing for the opening.

Probably fine as PAToyota says, or replacing the 4x12 with a 4x6 and replacing the jack stud with a longer one, that way it can be nailed to the top plate and everywhere else easier than steel.

Looked a little closer.

Both headers have about 1/4" or more gap above them. I saw a screw or a nail going into the top of one of them too. One of the side studs is not even touching the header.

It would appear there is no weight on it at all :eek:

It would appear there is no weight on it at all :eek:

Not that surprising. There really isn't any weight that would be on it. Your comment about the gap above the header is what I thought I saw, but couldn't quite tell from the picture.

If that is the case, I'd rip the header out and extend the opening up to the bottom of the double top plate.

Not that surprising. There really isn't any weight that would be on it. Your comment about the gap above the header is what I thought I saw, but couldn't quite tell from the picture.

If that is the case, I'd rip the header out and extend the opening up to the bottom of the double top plate.

I`ll take a few more pics to illustrate this.

I`m not sure how I'd mount my garage door if I didn't have a header. I plan on doing an external roll-up, I guess if I did eliminate it, I would just be mounting to the 2x12 that's above the top plate.

i don't know if it has been stated yet, but i would tear it all down and rebuild to suit your needs. those headers look hinky to me. i think you would be happier with the outcome.

Talked to another contractor today and as soon as I mentioned headers and parallel floor joists he said the header was probably not doing anything, then I described my building and he said all the weight was on the other side walls anyway with my design. Looks like no steel and taller opening is in my future :smokin: Now i`m hoping the garage door people don't try to charge me more for an abnormal height.

Oh, sure...! Don't believe your imaginary e-friends! :flipoff2:

Oh, sure...! Don't believe your imaginary e-friends! :flipoff2:

Only when something goes wrong :laughing:

Sorry to get into this late but contractors are always trying to put headers in unloaded end walls. Its just cosmetic in this case, unless you're using it to screw your garage door spring to it.

Only when something goes wrong :laughing:

Just razzing ya... :) I had said that I'd prefer to see it in person myself before giving advice.

Sorry to get into this late but contractors are always trying to put headers in unloaded end walls. Its just cosmetic in this case, unless you're using it to screw your garage door spring to it.

Many engineers will just say min. beam 4x12 U.N.O. (unless noted otherwise), so don't blame the contractor. I don't do that, just saying :flipoff2:

Any straps on the end of that beam (shear transer)? Given the location and age I doubt it was engineered anyway..