Welcome to the next contribution to the
The Official Pirate4x4.com Jeep Talk Bible (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=705122)

Topic of the Month Full Hydraulic Steering

This includes hydraulic ram selection, hydraulic hose selection, ram mounting options, Ram throw selection (internal/external stops), pump mods for increased flow and pressure. How to bleed the system. Orbital valve selection.

This does not include Hydro assist that is included in TOTM: Hydro Assist Steering (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10834754)


Also see Pirate4x4 Tech Articles
Part 1- Basic Hydraulics (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index1.html)
Part 2- Hydraulic Steering (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-Hydro_Steering/index2.html)
The Plumbing Bible (http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Plumbing/)

Good info on power steering pumps OEM vs aftermarket
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=973826

i really dont haver much tech to bring but where the hell did you guys mount the resivor? i got the psc full hydro kit. there is a bracket to mount it off the booster. i only worry is spending a minute nose up will run the pump dry.

http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20710

Here is a thread I made on everything you need to know on installing hydro on a cherokee(grand)

I will be learning all of this very soon.
Good timing on the topic.

:smokin:

I recommend getting a matching system, like PSC because it makes diagnosing problems earlier. Plus the company will be more likely to just send you new parts if something goes bad...No one else to blame (got a replacement orbital because of a small machining issue that cause my steering to go dead when moving slow and letting of the gas, the wheel would turn, but no tire movement....:eek:)

I went with a PSC kit personally, mounted on a ford dana 60 front. I was able to slam it low and real close to the pumpkin so that I would use the stock location on stock knuckles.

Mounted the reservoir on the airshock brace that runs over top of the motor and pump bolted into the stock location. Ran a steering cooler on the front bumper.

8" travel Double ended ram, no steering stops, just the regular internal ones. Works great now with the new orbital (steering control vavle if your name is BillaVista)

Love it, so much easier to set up than hydro assist.

Was going to post just a link to another site, but I hate when people do that and figured a little bit of effort on my part would be more helpful.
HTH


I went with a 2"x8" ram.
Used an internal stop to get the throw where I needed it.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00082.jpg


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00083.jpg



The bracket for the char-lynn.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/0929071924.jpg


Mounted up and adapted to the stock steering.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/HPIM2304.jpg




Made the axle bracket.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00092.jpg




Mounted.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00094.jpg




Made a reservoir and mounted it level with the stock res. on the the pump.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00165-1.jpg




Ran a cooler.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00141-sm.jpg




Modified the stock pump and plumbed it in. I went with rebuildable hose ends, instead of crimped ends, which made it nice when I had to do an on-trail repair.


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00140-sm.jpg




While bleeding the system, I forgot some of the clamps on the cooler and learnt a valuable lesson...


http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p320/hintonsooner/IMG00161.jpg




All in all, it worked well.
Would've been nicer with a double ended ram and higher pressure pump, but I went with what I could afford and never regretted it.

Do many of you have starvation/cavitation issues? I've been chasing such an issue with my steering setup (PSC orbital, PSC res, PSC pump). I think I've found a sollution by mounting the res infront of the pump. Even slightly behind the pump caused cavitation issues. I'll get some pics/specs about my system up tomorrow.

Do many of you have starvation/cavitation issues? I've been chasing such an issue with my steering setup (PSC orbital, PSC res, PSC pump). I think I've found a sollution by mounting the res infront of the pump. Even slightly behind the pump caused cavitation issues. I'll get some pics/specs about my system up tomorrow.

I am willing to bet your whining and heat are caused by a reservoir or feed line problem. What kind of reservoir are you using and where is it mounted (both in in the vehicle and in relation to the power steering pump so that I can visualize it)?

What size and type of feed line is run between your reservoir and pump? It should be a -10(5/8") size SAE100-R4 rated hose of no longer than 24" with a mostly downhill or at least flat run between the reservoir and the pump. You should also not be using ANY 90* adapter fittings on this line as they are very restrictive.

Cavitation is caused by a combination of pressure (or lack thereof) and temperature imposed on a fluid that caused the fluid to try to make a phase change from fluid to gas. If your reservoir or feed line are not properly feeding the pump, the pump will pull an excessive vacuum on the fluid at the pumps inlet and cause the fluid to form gas bubbles in the pump. The reaction causes a lot of heat which only worsens the problem.

I'm pretty sure that my problem does not stem from the feed line...but it could. I even "clocked" the power steering pump so the feed port was pointing more towards the res!

Here is a pic of my setup in October 2009.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3672.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3669.jpg


And here is what I did for November 2009. Please be aware that this is NOT a permanent mounting solution. I did this for 1 trail ride to see if it improved my steering...which it did!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/IMG_3782.jpg



What is weird, is that my setup will cavitate when driving on access roads (engine speed ~2000 rpms), unloading off my trailer, or when cresting an obstacle. Moving the res infront of the pump helped, but it did cavitate when unloading from the trailer, and driving around the parking area (less than 5mph!) Once on the trail it will work fine, now more than ever with the res moved forwards.



Regarding the rest of my system, here are the other parts.

Cooler.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3642.jpg

The ram is a 2.5x8 surplus center ram. I have it limmited to 7.5" of throw which stops the steering just before the steering stops on both sides.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3586.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3588.jpg

And I "clocked" the pump.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v217/HazzzMatMan/1%20ton%20swap/IMG_3645.jpg

What kind of fluid are you running? Anything with a detergent in it is bad! Like ATF or Hydraulic Fluid. I recommend Royal Purple Max EZ power steering fluid seen here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RPO-01326/

Here is my setup, showing the booster, valve, tank, ram, and cooler. These were taken before it was completed but it is now completed and working perfect. It is very rare to get the hydroboost to work with hydrosteer but I did it and runs great!

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/addicted2dunes/Jeep/P7260003.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/addicted2dunes/Jeep/Radiator03.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/addicted2dunes/Jeep/P4190003.jpg

What kind of fluid are you running? Anything with a detergent in it is bad! Like ATF or Hydraulic Fluid. I recommend Royal Purple Max EZ power steering fluid seen here: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/RPO-01326/

Valvoline power steering fluid.


I've spoken with Lance at PSC and he didn't really have many more suggestions to improve my setup. The way that the 4.0 is under the Cherokee hood makes it somewhat difficult to get a trouble free system.

The way I see it done and working is: Hose from reservoir to pump, from pump to steering valve, from steering valve through cooler, from cooler to filter, then filter back to reservoir.

Here is my setup
Looks great in the YJ.:smokin:
How is this same setup working out in your XJ? Everything still fit in the same places?

BTW, it's not that uncommon to see a hydroboost system running the steering and brakes.

Good stuff here. I'm wondering if the Orbital can be mounted on a dash bar with the fitting holes facing down? Or do they need to be facing up?

You can, but I wouldn't want my legs under there if a hose ever springs a leak and injects them with hydraulic fluid.
Could happen.

Good stuff here. I'm wondering if the Orbital can be mounted on a dash bar with the fitting holes facing down? Or do they need to be facing up?

It's a lot easier to modify your steering shaft and set it on top of the frame rail where your steering box was than route 4 hoses back and through the firewall...

If there was really any difference at all wrt mounting it hoses up/down I'd say up would be easier to bleed the air out if hoses were up.... But on a well matched system it wouldn't make much of a difference... Like terry said, make sure you shield the hoses if you do bring them inside the cab...

How will full hydro handle at speed with a three link + panhard bar? Would it work better or any differenet than if the suspension was a triangulated 4-link?

How will full hydro handle at speed with a three link + panhard bar? Would it work better or any differenet than if the suspension was a triangulated 4-link?

full hydro is not street legal if that's what your real question is...

but everyone that competes in KOH runs full hydro

I know its not street legal and most people that compete in KOH run full hydro but not all of them do.

My question is does a different suspension set-up work better with full hydro than another.

Generally speaking, trinagulated 4 links should have hydro and not a draglink/tierod type steering. With hydro, all of the steering force is kept on the axle.

I know its not street legal and most people that compete in KOH run full hydro but not all of them do.

My question is does a different suspension set-up work better with full hydro than another.

Some suspensions require full hydro, full hydro does not require a suspension type. Full hydro works good on any setup from leafs to 1 links.

Thanks ashman that is all I was wondering.

I have been running Full Hydro for the last 6 years. I think I had the best steering out of most of the rigs I've driven. I just did a motor swap from a 4.2 to a 4.0 and it's not so good. I have a Double ended ram and a cooler. Only difference now is I changed the pump. I used the one on the 4.0.

I did a search and in the Toyota forum they are using a TC pump with some mods. It said the mods help it a lot. I was up at Moorocks this weekend and there were a few times my tires would not turn and I hit a hard stop with the steering but it was not turned all the way and it started whining. If I rev the motor it would turn fine.

What Pump are the Jeep guys running with a double ended ram and the 4.0? The mods to the TC sound easy so I might try that.

Link to the mods in the pump - http://westtexasoffroad.homestead.com/powersteering.html

Thanks!
JDunn

BTT ^^^Anyone running a double ended ram?^^^

I have the same problem as you do. I run a double ended ram with a PSC pump. The pump seems to be the problem for me also. I drilled out the fitting and it helped a bit, but it still isn't good by any means. Vetteboy has a really good setup with hyrdo assist where he did some pump mods. Drilled the fitting and put on a smaller pulley. His setup was almost identical to mine when I had hydro assist besides the pulley. So I think my next step is going to be going to a smaller pulley.

Here is my setup.

http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww84/acb5015/Jeep%20Over%20the%20years/P1020531.jpg
http://i708.photobucket.com/albums/ww84/acb5015/Jeep%20Over%20the%20years/P1020548.jpg

Alright here's my full-hydro setup on my ZJ. I'm a dealer for TG so I picked up their full-hydro kit for a good price. Went with a 10" ram and internally stopped it so I have just under 9". I couldn't find any write-ups online about how to go about doing the internal stops on this, so I just decided to figure it out. Hopefully this benefits someone else, although I'm not sure all rams are put together the same way.

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506546937030_330900191_182140_1308271_n.jpg

Use a spanner wrench. I made one of the most ghetto ones I could for the job. Turn the outside piece and the "clip" will work it's way out.
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506546966970_330900191_182146_4934109_n.jpg

Slide the ram out
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506546942020_330900191_182141_4664348_n.jpg

Take your desired spacer, and put it on the ram. I used 1.5" .120 DOM for mine. 0.5" thick.
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506546952000_330900191_182143_7192865_n.jpg
http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506546947010_330900191_182142_7152123_n.jpg

Once that's done, slide the ram back in, put find the hole on the end piece, and insert the "clip" again. I applied some grease to help it go in smoothly
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs413.snc3/24956_506546956990_330900191_182144_2799862_n.jpg
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs433.snc3/24956_506546961980_330900191_182145_7321963_n.jpg

Then you're done. Your ram will now max out earlier with the new internal stops. It's easy enough to modify again later if desired.
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506546986930_330900191_182150_3993004_n.jpg

continued........

New pump for the full-hydro. Bolted right up
http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506546832240_330900191_182119_6067955_n.jpg

Pulley pressed on
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506546837230_330900191_182120_1696411_n.jpg

The amazing clearance.
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506546991920_330900191_182151_1363516_n.jpg

Orbital mounted
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs413.snc3/24956_506546996910_330900191_182152_131334_n.jpg

Reservoir mounted
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506547011880_330900191_182155_2523227_n.jpg

Ram and longer high-steer arms mounted
http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506547046810_330900191_182162_7735303_n.jpg
http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs433.snc3/24956_506547031840_330900191_182159_6007831_n.jpg

More sweet clearance
http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs453.ash1/24956_506547036830_330900191_182160_2773664_n.jpg

All painted up.
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs413.snc3/24956_506547056790_330900191_182164_1347568_n.jpg

Looks great in the YJ.:smokin:
How is this same setup working out in your XJ? Everything still fit in the same places?

BTW, it's not that uncommon to see a hydroboost system running the steering and brakes.

Way, WAY old..... but how dare you call my Scrambler a YJ! :flipoff2:

CrawlerReady,


Are you running trail gears p/s pump? IF so, looks like you just pressed on your factory pulley off the zj onto it?