Alright i'll say up front this may be a dumb question but search turned up nothing.

I have read the billa vista tech article about welding the snout to the shifter where the stock tack welds commonly crack. I'm wondering if there would be any harm in welding the other end of the snout (bottom) to the short piece that engages the shift rail. It's just held in place by a single roll pin and mine seems to have a lot of play. I'm thinking that might help tighten it up.

Yay or nay?

EDIT: here's the article for those who haven't read it.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/sm465/index.html

nay, mine had quite a bit of wobble in that location. check the 5/16 roll pins on the shifter tower as well as the slots where these ride. If your shifter is loose, more than likely this is where the slop is located. I replaced the roll pins and its great now.

be sure to stuff a shop rag down the hole before you drive out the old ones otherwise you get to change your gear oil also.

I welded that piece (the end of the snout that engages shift rail) and I love how NOT sloppy the shifter is. I have zero problems finding gears or confirming neutral. I say do it

If you drive those two roll pins out of the coupler and take it all apart you will find a couple nylon sleeves on the paddle piece that are supposed to insulate the shifter cane from the paddle (best I can guess it is to keep gear noise from conducting up the shifter cane). They will be all worn out and possibly split. You have 2 options at this point: First, you can stack some thick o-rings in in place of the nylon sleeves and reassemble with new roll pins. I don't know how long it will last, but it will feel a lot better while it does. Option #2 is to simply reassemble it without the nylon crap and re-using the old roll pins, and then weld the shit up. It will feel great and you won't have to worry about how long it will last :D

i thought i saw something on this before, i just now remembered where:flipoff2:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/sm465/index.html

i thought i saw something on this before, i just now remembered where:flipoff2:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/sm465/index.html

No shit? Well how about a nice big pat on the back for ya http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/emoticons/jerkit.gif

No shit? Well how about a nice big pat on the back for ya http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/emoticons/jerkit.gif

real mature:shaking::flipoff2: haha

EDIT: i retract my:shaking::flipoff2:, i just noticed the link from the first post....:shaking:

real mature:shaking::flipoff2: haha

EDIT: i retract my:shaking::flipoff2:, i just noticed the link from the first post....:shaking:

Great, so you CAN read then? Did you actually read said article? If so, you would have realized it doesn't say a fuckin' word about either welding the paddle to the collar or taking it apart and replacing the nylon pieces with o-rings. Those were the alternative fixes suggested by k5_on_rocks and myself, and we both know they work better than the suggestions in the article.

It pays to read posts thoroughly before you come in and start talking shit. :rolleyes:

Right on guys.........gives me another option to think about then. There is a ton of play in that part of the shifter so I may just weld it up.

Got another interesting one for ya though. So I welded up the part that it talks about in the article, and I modified the shifter itself to have almost a 90 deg. turn coming out of the top of the tranny. This trans is going in my TJ so it sits way forward from stock. Now for some reason I can't get it into 1st, 3rd or reverse. Before I modified the shifter and welded it I could run it through all the gears no prob when it was sitting on the garage floor. Now that it's in the Jeep............no worky.

Ideas? I'm out at this point. Haven't pulled the tranny back out yet but that is my next step. Hoping to get this fixed so I can finish modifying the shifter without having to pull and re-install the trans.

I'll attach a pic in a second to give you an idea of what i'm talking about.

EDIT: here is a pic.
http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp220/littletj2003/V8%20Swap/CIMG3435.jpg

Is the weld hitting the retainer?

I think you would be miles ahead to pull the stick and replace it with one that makes it's 90* ( and 90* may be too much) about 1 1/2" above the ball and weld a small truss in the bend. It looks like it would hit the floor in 2nd and 4th to me. IMHO

Weld is not hitting the retainer, it simply won't go into the above mentioned gears. I still have about an inch from hitting the tunnel in second and 4th.

I went ahead and pulled the trans and tried a spare shifter I have sitting around and it works just fine........but it still has the stock bends in it. Tried re-welding the above shifter at a different angle and that didn't help anything either. It's very strange.

How much of an impact would the bend of the shifter have on the shifter itself? As far as I can figure it shouldn't matter what the shifter looks like as long as you're transferring the force to the shift lever inside the tranny.

OK, but the trans doesn't know or care what bends are in the stick unless they cause an interference somewhere. You did resolve the shift finger issue from above?

My bet is welded in that position you likely don't have the leverage to push the spring "sideways" properly allowing it to go into those gears (more specifically reverse, why it won't go into first I don't know).

try putting a pair of vise grips in the upright position on top of the shifter, then use the vise grips to help you get it into gear... might work, might not, but this will help you determine if its the shifter location or the weld job!

yeah i welded the top of the snout where the tack welds had cracked, so that is solid there. There wasn't much play in my roll pins and the channels that they slide onto are in good shape. Still haven't touched the finger on the end yet.

The thing is, I have another shifter from a 465 that I can used and it runs through all the gears no problem. The only difference between the two are:

1) Bends in the shifter (shouldn't matter, I agree with you on that)
2) Welded tack welds on the first shifter, not done on spare shifter
3) Nub on the end of the shifter where it engages the shift rails is in perfect condition on the first shifter (the one I modified), but is fairly worn on the spare

For some reason the spare shifter rattles through all the gears perfectly.

I have no idea. Seems kinda strange to me. It is possible with the paddle being sloppy that it is running out of travel for some reason. I would try welding the paddle up solid and see if that helps.

There is one other option for you application. The last years of the SM465 had a version for the 88-98 body style truck. In order to fit in these trucks the shift tower had to be relocated rearwards, so Muncie cast an entirely new top cover out of aluminum for these 465's. Here's what one looks like:

http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/Blazer/pics/1-17-10/r-DSCF3307.JPG

Besides being farther rearward, the shift tower is also taller and uses a shorter shifter cane and has more positive detents. The result is a unit that shifts much like an NV4500 - short, crisp, positive throws.

I don't know what configuration your trans is (i.e. short 10 spline output, long 32 spline, or 2wd mated to an Atlas), but the 465's with this cover are all either 2WD or long 32 spline output. However, the cover with it's shift forks are a direct bolt on to any other 465, so if you find one in a configuration that you can't otherwise use, you can just swap the top covers. If you decide to go this route, make sure to get the shifter with it - they are different lengths on both sides of the ball vs the older ones like yours.

Damn, I knew that some of the later model 465's had the aluminum top cover but I didn't know the shift tower was further back on them. Had that been the case I probably would have spent a bit more time when I was looking around. The one I have is the long 32 spline output. You don't know anyone looking to sell theirs do you? :D

I figured something out. The shape of the shifter, in this case, is a factor in how it shifts. The shifter needs to stick straight up out of the case a certain amount before bending. Also, after the bend, it can't come straight back in line with the output shaft, it needs to kick out on an angle first. I'm thinking this is to give it some leverage and apply both lateral and front/back forces on the shifter.

I'm guessing at this point but I was able to get everything working by adjusting the shifter to look like my spare one.

I figured something out. The shape of the shifter, in this case, is a factor in how it shifts. The shifter needs to stick straight up out of the case a certain amount before bending. Also, after the bend, it can't come straight back in line with the output shaft, it needs to kick out on an angle first. I'm thinking this is to give it some leverage and apply both lateral and front/back forces on the shifter.

Exactly what I was trying to say in my last post... the visegrips will help you apply that sideways leverage in order to determine if this was your problem. In your current set up you don't have any sideways "leverage" to push against the spring, allowing the shift fork to go into gear;)


I also didn't realize the later aluminum covers relocated the shifter... Good to know! thanks.

:) Thanks Leyland..........I wasn't able to use the vice grips, but modifying the shifter allowed me to figure it out. Should have listened to you before.....i'm just retarded that's all. :D

i welded mine one time and it shifted just as the OP described....fixed it with an n-modded JY shifter

I found mine fully welded were the tack welds usually are. Looks stock. It was a Mil surplus trans so who knows what it came out of.

The lower paddle part was all in good shape and had NO play so I didnt even bother pulling it apart. The area that the roll pins ride on was evenly worn though. I turned them around to the fresh side but the wear was on the shifter. I ended up using some stainless metric (laying around from my Raptor) allen head bolts that were the perfect size to thread into the roll pins. Turns out that they are just slightly bigger than the roll pins at the socket head and take up the worn area perfectly. I cant say what size they are, but it should be easy to test fit a few in the roll pins. These came from Ace Hardware.

I had to lightly tap the shifter down to get it in at first. I put some marine grease on the worn area and slapped a hose clamp around them. Its so tight its unreal. Makes the NV4500 shifter in my tow rig seem loose. Now Im gonna have to go mess with it...

Pics

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/132/l_77746411e28b492cbb8f08377269f42c.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/119/l_d031c97d0b484727b2653dd33fdaa75a.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/141/l_6da60784f109429995d12e9b9edc6832.jpg