I recently bought a '72 Scout II, everything stock on it. i am looking to lift it and do some customizing. I dont know what to do lift wise(body, spring, SOA, shackle...). I could use some advice and/or comments on what other people have done and what has worked for them.

I have a 72 also and mine has a dana 30 front. I would get that thing outta there if you are planning on anything bigger than 33's. The rear is most likely a dana 44 and if the front looks like the rear (pumpkin) its a 44 too. That means you have an older 72. As for lift advice its different in ecery case. We need more details as to how and where you wheel to give any serious advice. I like rocks and have a heavy right foot and am going SOA on fullwidths.

I want to put full width axles on it eventually. That is a little ways down the road. For right now I would like too have something that looks good but can also proform well, something more all around for right now.

If you can do SOA yourself its cheap and fairly easy from what I hear.. Mine is kind of a pain in the a$$ so far. But then again I am swapping axles and stuff. If you dont want to fab all the stuff yourself SUA and 4" triangle springs would be a good setup.

What is giving you problems in doing your SOA?

'72 Scout II

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>What is giving you problems in doing your SOA?</STRONG>

The front axle was beat to #%!* (you pick the 4 letter explitive. ) I have to replace EVERYTHING! seals balljoints u-joints I mean EVERYTHING! the rear is a 14 bolt and well there aint breaking nothing on that dude <IMG SRC="smilies/smile.gif" border="0"> The rear needs new spring perches installed and I am going ot have to redo all my brake lines. Steering is a joy to do also. I had to buy a machined and drilled flat top knuckle. Just a bunch of stuff all combined makes it a fun experience <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> I am not bitching too much it just seems like it will never be done. I am still in search and gather parts mode right now...

Go SOA. I had mine on a ramp for the first time since I did my SOA, and it was really impressive. Maxed the 20 degree ramp, then scored 82 on the 30 degree.

Every ramp is different, so it is hard to compare, but last year I scored a 680 on the 20 degree ramp. So, year to year, the improvement is huge.

Much nicer on the trail now, although I don't get many of those cool tire pick pictures these days. Tires stay on the ground much, much better now.

http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/Hooper30RampPassengerFront.jpg http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/Hooper30RampPassengerFrontTire.jpg

hehehehehehehe, thanks for the pic patty <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/KevinRampFrontLow.jpg

This one might be better


http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/KevinRampFrontHigherAngle.jpg

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>hehehehehehehe, thanks for the pic patty <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">
http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/KevinRampFrontLow.jpg </STRONG>

wow look at all that NO flex in the front end <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> the axles almost paralell with the bumper still!

Hmm, I seem to have a good difference in angle between front bumper and axle in this one.

http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/Hooper30RampPassengerFront.jpg

ya you do, but kev's reear is doing all the work, imagine if the front played well too <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Hooper, what kind of springs are you running?

Originally posted by DSI:
<STRONG>ya you do, but kev's reear is doing all the work, imagine if the front played well too <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Very very true. His rear end is set up very well. With both my front and rear twisting, I still cannot get anywhere close to him on the ramp. <g>

I guess you could describe kevin as soft and loose in the back, but stiff in the front?

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>Hooper, what kind of springs are you running?</STRONG>


It's basically a stock scout.

Plain SOA suspension on stock SSII XLC springs front and rear. That's about it. Not even reverse shackle. No extended shackles. Nothing special.


http://www.ihssii.org/pagegraphics/HooperB.jpg

WOW, that is some really good flex on stock springs. What kind of axles do you have? Also, what complications did you go through when doing your SOA?

I hear that if you do the reverse shackle, you will get that same flex! --Josh

How high of lift can you get from a reverse shackle?

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>WOW, that is some really good flex on stock springs. What kind of axles do you have? Also, what complications did you go through when doing your SOA?</STRONG>


Thanks. I thought it was pretty good too.
<IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">
RTI does not mean much on the trail, but the difference in scores from one year to the next means a lot. Saw lots of rigs flex well in the rear, but I think getting the front to flex well is the real key.

I have to give lots of credit to lots of people though for their technical help. RustoleumWhite helped me with the rear setup. Scoutillac came up with the correct length and manner to mount the front shock towers and other stuff. Lots of other folks helped me with the geometry on the front.

I think getting the correct shock length and mounting positions might be the most critical for maximum front flex.

Also, using stock xlc's gives you better flex than lift springs, but still gives you enough flex to keep the tires out of the sheet metal. I get a nice reverse arch in mine when I flex it up.

I'm very happy with the end result. Now I need to improve my driving skills to match the rigs abilities.

Still eyeing a set of 35's, although I really like the way the 33's stuff.

http://www.ihssii.org/pagegraphics/HooperB.jpg

Well patty, lets test your front flex is the key theory on the trail next weekend? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> hehehehehe My front does flex when loaded in different situations, though it is not readily visable in the ramp pics. So when will the wife let you out again <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ?

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>WOW, that is some really good flex on stock springs. What kind of axles do you have? Also, what complications did you go through when doing your SOA?</STRONG>

Guess I forgot to address the SOA and axle side of it.

I cut and turned my front knuckles, 13 degrees, then shimmed the pinion back up 7 degrees. That left me with 6 degrees of caster. Boy does it drive nice on the freeway now. HUGE difference.

That also pointed my pinion at my t-case (almost - it is actually just a bit low, but I think axle wrap straightens it out. That means under heavy torque, my lower front ujoint is straight, but once torque is off, it has a slight angle to it. Turning the pinion up also improved the angle of the upper ujoint. Finally, raising the pinion gets the yoke and ujoint up away from rocks. I did not use a CV at the t-case, which means that I can only do about 30mph with the front driveline engaged, but I never go faster than 30mph in 4wd in any case, so it has not been an issue)

I used 7 degree steel shims that RustoleumWhite made for me and welded them to the axles for the pinion angle.

For drag link, I used a DOM Z-link from Gryphin Automotive. I know high crossover with a straight bar is better, but that will come later.

Tie rod is stainless steel from Back Country Binders.

For brake lines in the rear, Tom M provided part# Ford E350 Van rear brake line for the rear. That is a direct bolt in swap.

For the front brakes, P/N F113154 from Tom Martin's site. These are extenders. They thread into the top end of your existing lines, then thread into the fittings where the old lines threaded into the hard lines. You should probably figure out some spring system to hold the lines up away from your tires, however. Don't want them tangling in the lugs.

For the front shock mounts, I tried welding a stud to my axle for the lower eye, but I am such a poor welder, that they snapped off right away. So, instead, I used an L shaped bracket RustoleumWhite made for me. It fits over the end of the Ujoint Bolt. I put a washer between it and the ujoint bolt. Then put a bolt on top of that. The bracket hangs down behind the axle, and I drilled a hole near the bottom edge and bolted my lower shock to that. For the upper end, I used a Ford F-250 heavy duty shock tower, cut it at a 45 degree angle about half way through. Cut off my stock shock towers, ground the frame smooth, then welded the new shock towers in exactly the same place. This raised the front shock mounting point about 4 inches. I bought a shock with about 13 inches of total travel, and bolted it up. I know I took some pictures of it all, but can't find them now. Have to dig around. Too many pictures floating around my desk after roundup.

For the rear shocks, I also welded a stud to the axle, but snapped those off on the trail run. I am currently working on a new idea for the rear. It will entail fabbing up from flat stock a bar that runs up from the spring perches at a 45 degree angle about 3 inches, then horizontally across the diff, then back down to the opposite spring perch. I will drill holes in the horizontal section, inboard from the perches, and bolt the bottom of the rear shocks to those points. DK if it will work or not but it seems like it will. Still have to take some measurements and get the flat stock to do it. If it works, I will post pics.


http://www.ihssii.org/pagegraphics/HooperB.jpg

Originally posted by Scoutillac:
<STRONG>Well patty, lets test your front flex is the key theory on the trail next weekend? <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0"> hehehehehe My front does flex when loaded in different situations, though it is not readily visable in the ramp pics. So when will the wife let you out again <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ?</STRONG>

Not for you, you goofball. Your rear flexes better than my front and rear combined!!! <g>

But, at 82 on the 30 degree, I am getting closer to the big dogs, although still trailing you by a long way!!! Nice thing was that the position of the front shock towers worked out perfect, so it looks like you got it just right. No binding up there at all.

I do want to go play, but I am saving up my time off credits to go over to liberty some time in september.

Not that I can keep up with your monster these days in any case!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">


http://www.ihssii.org/pagegraphics/HooperB.jpg

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>How high of lift can you get from a reverse shackle?</STRONG>

I have seen as much as 4" --Josh

Originally posted by JoshC:
<STRONG>I have seen as much as 4" --Josh</STRONG>

Kind of look like a vampire with those big teeth hanging down!!! <g> Seen those towers hang up on lots of rocks, too <g>

OK. OK. I am against Reverse Shackle, and I know I am in the minority on this issue. Everyone says it is great, huge improvement, yada, yada, yada, but you cannot convince me!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG> OK. OK. I am against Reverse Shackle, and I know I am in the minority on this issue. Everyone says it is great, huge improvement, yada, yada, yada, but you cannot convince me!!!

<IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0"></STRONG>

Sounds about right. What exactly are the reasons why you are against RS? --Josh

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG> It will entail fabbing up from flat stock a bar that runs up from the spring perches at a 45 degree angle about 3 inches, then horizontally across the diff, then back down to the opposite spring perch. I will drill holes in the horizontal section, inboard from the perches, and bolt the bottom of the rear shocks to those points. DK if it will work or not but it seems like it will. </STRONG>

Uh.. Pat. You're describing an AXLE TRUSS, not a shock mount!

What happened to the mounts RustoleumWhite fabbed up (on the perches)?

Barring that, just have four pieces of 1/4" thick flat stock hole-sawed with a 2.75" saw so you have four pieces of steel, 4-5" long, with a half-moon removed.

Drill the end of the flat stock for your shock mounting bolt.

Position over the axle tube where you want your shock to be. One on either side of the shock eye. Weld.

Ta-da.

On top, get some flat or angle and bolt it to the two stock upper shock mounts. Drill new upper shock mounts the length of the flat bar so you have some options/adjustments and then start angling inboard until your shocks fit both compression and extension.

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG>
I used 7 degree steel shims that RustoleumWhite made for me and welded them to the axles for the pinion angle.

</STRONG>

This is funny. I thought you used the GM axle housing because you didn't want to weld to the casting? And you ended up welding to it anyway! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: 61Scout ]

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG>Kind of look like a vampire with those big teeth hanging down!!! <g> Seen those towers hang up on lots of rocks, too <g>

OK. OK. I am against Reverse Shackle, and I know I am in the minority on this issue. Everyone says it is great, huge improvement, yada, yada, yada, but you cannot convince me!!!

</STRONG>

No idea if my "ride quality" improved or not - I'm just happy I haven't bent any springs or ripped the hangers off yet. :-)

Oh yeah.. it hasn't hurt my ability to "wheel" at all - no loss in traction as near as I can tell. <IMG SRC="smilies/thefinger.gif" border="0">

I do need to lengthen the towers so the draglink will stop hitting the springs when I land. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I guess I'm going to have to cut the spring clamps before next year so I can pose with the 30-deg crowd. Lowering the front spring mounts should help, too (keeping the draglink from pretending to be a bump-stop)

Then again, maybe I'm just not heavy enough to flex the springs properly..

http://www.mt.net/~tsm1/devil_ramp_nwbru.jpg
Higher Res (http://www.dreamwater.com/cburwell/trucks/ih/round/DCP0259.jpg)
http://www.nwbinders.net/2001Roundup/Show/TiggerRamping.jpg

My suspension is stock non-HD rear springs, XLC front w/ no-lift RS. SOA front/rear. full-width Chevy front, Travelall rear axles, 4.88s.

And with a spring-over conversion, you can see that I can still fit 31x15.50s (same as stock). I think they actually rubbed. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I think the spring clamps and perhaps the not-long-enough (only 9" travel) rear shocks limited my trip up the ramp the most.

Next year, bring two ramps and I'll drive off the end. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: tsm1mt ]

Originally posted by JoshC:
<STRONG>Sounds about right. What exactly are the reasons why you are against RS? --Josh</STRONG>

Hehehe. Don't get me started.

RS improves the ride on the road, and it reduces impact against your frame when going over obstacles, no question. But are those *real* concerns for a wheeling rig? I don't drive my rig for comfort. If I did, I'd buy something like a Jeep or Toyota

But, a RS does so by sacrificing traction to the front wheels.

With a stock setup, when your front tire encounters an obstacle, the obstacle exerts a force on your tire in a rearward and upward vector. Since the axle is bolted to the spring, and the spring is pinned at the rear, the tire really cannot move backward much at all (the spring can bow a bit allowing the tire and axle to move back a little, but it not very appreciable). In order for the tire to go over the obstacle, it has to move up and forward, effectively doubling the pressure on the contact patch. Every bit that the tire moves forward as it climbs, it doubles its traction. As it moves forward, it increases pressure on the obstacle, increasing traction. Also, as the tire rotates under power, it pushes down on the obstacle, which pushes up on the springs, pushing the tire farther forward, and generating even more traction. Net result, the harder you push on an obstacle with your tire, the better the traction you get in the front end.

With a reverse shackle, exactly the opposite is true. When you encounter an obstacle with the front end, the obstacle pushes the tire back and up. The reverse shackle allows the tire to swing backward, and upward, basically getting out of the way of the obstacle, decreasing traction. As the tire rotates, it also pushes the tire backward and upward. What you end up with is a tire with greatly reduced downward/forward pressure and greatly reduced traction. If the obstacle is an easy one, the tire gets out of the way and you roll over it, kind of like a speed bump. But for difficult obstacles where you need to maximize traction, the net result is a spinning tire. It is much easier to spin a front tire against an obstacle in a RS setup than it is with a stock setup. Spinning tires damage the trails. (not on rock, but in mud and soft dirt.)

Picture this. When your front tire encounters a tall root in the trail, the tire runs up against it. With a RS, the tire hits the obstacle, then pulls away from it a bit as it tries to climb. Instead of increasing traction on the slippery obstacle, you have now reduced traction. But, you are still making contact, and what you end up doing is spinning your tire against the root, and digging out the dirt on the soft front side. Pretty soon, you have a really big hole and a damaged trail.

One last point, and I know I am rambling on and on here, RS hurts your approach angle. As your tire moves backward, it does not pick the front of the truck up like a stock spring setup does. Take a tall obstacle, like a wall, for example. If you try to push a RS axle up on it, the axle will run away and hide back in and up. Net result is that whatever is on the front of your rig (bumper, winch, etc) will not be pushed up higher to clear the obstacle. You are not only losing traction as that axle retreats, you are decreasing your approach angle.

So, my argument is that stock spring setup maximizes traction while climbing obstacles. True, you get more impact to the frame, but gusset the back of your front spring hangers, and drive more carefully. A stock spring setup is an advantage on the trail over a RS setup.

Flame away all your RS'ers!!!


<IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

http://www.ihssii.org/pagegraphics/HooperB.jpg <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by JoshC:
<STRONG>Sounds about right. What exactly are the reasons why you are against RS? --Josh</STRONG>

I think reverse shackles are a waste for a wheeling scout.

I had a rockcatcher style RS on my scout, 6" towers. Scraped them constantly. Now have non-rockcatcher, 3" towers, they don't scrape, but I have to run 12* <IMG SRC="smilies/eek.gif" border="0"> shims to fix the angles. The rollsteer is pretty ugly too. If I had bigger tires they would hit the firewall when stuffed, and they would be under the front bumber when drooped. If I had to do it over, I would definately skip the RS.

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG>

With a stock setup, when your front tire encounters an obstacle, the obstacle exerts a force on your tire in a rearward and upward vector. Since the axle is bolted to the spring, and the spring is pinned at the rear, the tire really cannot move backward much at all (the spring can bow a bit allowing the tire and axle to move back a little, but it not very appreciable). In order for the tire to go over the obstacle, it has to move up and forward, effectively doubling the pressure on the contact patch. Every bit that the tire moves forward as it climbs, it doubles its traction. As it moves forward, it increases pressure on the obstacle, increasing traction. Also, as the tire rotates under power, it pushes down on the obstacle, which pushes up on the springs, pushing the tire farther forward, and generating even more traction. Net result, the harder you push on an obstacle with your tire, the better the traction you get in the front end.

With a reverse shackle, exactly the opposite is true. When you encounter an obstacle with the front end, the obstacle pushes the tire back and up. The reverse shackle allows the tire to swing backward, and upward, basically getting out of the way of the obstacle, decreasing traction. As the tire rotates, it also pushes the tire backward and upward. What you end up with is a tire with greatly reduced downward/forward pressure and greatly reduced traction. If the obstacle is an easy one, the tire gets out of the way and you roll over it, kind of like a speed bump. But for difficult obstacles where you need to maximize traction, the net result is a spinning tire. It is much easier to spin a front tire against an obstacle in a RS setup than it is with a stock setup. Spinning tires damage the trails. (not on rock, but in mud and soft dirt.)
</STRONG>

This is true with highly arched springs. When your springs are essentially flat at rest (typical SOA) it is false.

SOA, flat springs, shackle on the front of the spring. Axle moves rearward on compression, and rearward on droop.

SOA, flat springs, shackle on the rear of the spring. Axle moves forward on
compression, and forward on droop.

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG>
With a stock setup, when your front tire encounters an obstacle, the obstacle exerts a force on your tire in a rearward and upward vector. Since the axle is bolted to the spring, and the spring is pinned at the rear, the tire really cannot move backward much at all (the spring can bow a bit allowing the tire and axle to move back a little, but it not very appreciable)....
</STRONG>

.. mine bowed enough to permanently deform in to an "S" shape and break the center pins. Is that "appreciable"? <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> (I know, that's what I get for going 20+mph.. but imagine a bigger rig, bigger tires, bigger rock, bigger motor.. and much less speed..)

<STRONG>

effectively doubling the pressure on the contact patch... moves forward, it increases pressure on the obstacle, increasing traction. Also, as the tire rotates under power, it pushes down on the obstacle, which pushes up on the springs, pushing the tire farther forward, and generating even more traction. Net result...
</STRONG>

The Net Result.. ever wonder how my rig got nick-named "Tigger"? Y'know, "I'm gonna bounce"?

I'd come up to an obstacle, hit the front tires against it. Load up the suspension and "pause" for a moment. Then BAM the spring would unload, the front end would come off the ground, and in an ugly violent motion I'd leap onto the top of the obstacle and continue on.

This was with the 196 for grunt. I couldn't drive OVER an obstacle, I could only JUMP onto it.

<STRONG>
One last point, and I know I am rambling on and on here, RS hurts your approach angle. As your tire moves backward, it does not pick the front of the truck up like a stock spring setup does.
</STRONG>

OTOH, you can't "flip" your shackles or bend springs by hitting the spring eye/shackle on a rock with an RS. I've popped my shackles backwards a few times trying to scale something I didn't have *quite* enough clearance up front for it (before the 33 was on the rock, the shackle hit the top of it. Just a little more lift, or some rock stacking would've cured the problem)
<STRONG>
Flame away all your RS'ers!!!
</STRONG>

LOL. I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. Tigger still runs a stock setup (mostly because I'm lazy).. Devil runs an RS because I broke the springs and hangers.

Probably the next time I rip the hangers from the frame on Tigger I'll do the RS. I think I also will want just a *little* extra lift out of the RS when I redo Tigger's suspension.. then again, maybe not.

BTW, my Travelall's factory rear-shackle front suspension works great wheelin' and around town. :-)

-Tom

Originally posted by 61Scout:
<STRONG>This is true with highly arched springs. When your springs are essentially flat at rest (typical SOA) it is false.

SOA, flat springs, shackle on the front of the spring. Axle moves rearward on compression, and rearward on droop.

SOA, flat springs, shackle on the rear of the spring. Axle moves forward on
compression, and forward on droop.</STRONG>


True. Once your springs go flat and you start getting negative arch, the vectors reverse. With RS, you now pull the tire forward against the obstacle. So, a RS on a SOA rig, is going to have the same vectors working on it as stock setup on SUA rig. All you guys that went RS to improve the ride, and SOA at the same time with flat springs, ended up backwards from where you wanted to be for ride comfort <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

I still have good postive arch in my stock springs so I get the best of both worlds. As I push on an obstacle, the tire pushes forward and up, increasing traction and raising my front end over (up a wall) till I get to negative arch. At the point that the spring goes to negative arch, the tire is higher off the ground than any other, which means the springs are exerting far more downward force on that tire than any other tire, giving that tire maximum traction. Now that I am up on the obstacle, the spring goes negative arch, and allows the tire to start moving back away from the obstacle. As I continue to climb, and the spring negative arches, my rig actually draws down closer to the springs per spring flex degree, decreasing the rate my COG rises. So, the tire gets maximum traction as it is climbing, I get maximum lift for clearance, then the body starts to come back down on that corner, leveraging the rear up into the air to make it easier for it to climb over.

Plus, no fangs <g>

Best of both worlds.
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by tsm1mt:
<STRONG>LOL. I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. Tigger still runs a stock setup (mostly because I'm lazy).. Devil runs an RS because I broke the springs and hangers.

Probably the next time I rip the hangers from the frame on Tigger I'll do the RS. I think I also will want just a *little* extra lift out of the RS when I redo Tigger's suspension.. then again, maybe not.

BTW, my Travelall's factory rear-shackle front suspension works great wheelin' and around town. :-)

-Tom</STRONG>

Hehehe. Busted my rear shock studs off the rear axle imitating Tigger last Monday.

True, reverse shackle does not have a problem with shackle flip. I've not had the pleasure, yet <g>

Yep, I know you S'd your springs, but I think those were *unusual* circumstances <g>

I gussetted and plated my front hangers. Gonna be pretty tough to bust them off. So I will probably break a spring or something <g> I should get breakaway rear pins <g> Shear the pin off, but that would be easy to replace on the trail. Hmm, I have some extra #2 pencils I could use....

Originally posted by matt72scoutII:
<STRONG>I recently bought a '72 Scout II, everything stock on it. i am looking to lift it and do some customizing. I dont know what to do lift wise(body, spring, SOA, shackle...). I could use some advice and/or comments on what other people have done and what has worked for them.</STRONG>

It all depends on what you want - how far do you want to go/ how much to spend.. and do you want to crawl before you run?

I started with a 4" SUA Skyjacker bolt-on suspension lift. $800-$1000 worth of "stuff" - lift springs, shocks, bushings, brake lines, and whatever else it needed at the time..

I didn't like how low the rear sat. After a two years I broke a spring perch off the rear axle housing and decided that was a good excuse and went SOA in the rear - by that I'd acquired a welder and more tools (and another vehicle to drive).

Been that way for 2 years or so now. A lot of fun, but still not where I want to be.. so I'm going to end up dropping more $$$ to rebuild the suspension again.

The difference is now I have the tools and expertise to do what I *want*. Before, I had to limit myself to what I *could* do (which was turn wrenches and hit things with a hammer)

Nothing wrong with buying a 4" Triangle lift, installing it, and playing for a while to learn what you like and don't like about it.

Do a spring over and high steer,and be done. <IMG SRC="smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by 61Scout:
<STRONG>This is funny. I thought you used the GM axle housing because you didn't want to weld to the casting? And you ended up welding to it anyway! <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: 61Scout ]</STRONG>


Yep. You are right. But, the shims were walking on me. So, I welded the driver side shim to the perch. Passenger side is staying put.

So, I didn't really weld to the housing <g>

And, it wasn't the welding to the housing I was trying to avoid, it was the extensive mess of grinding pumpkin, welding perch, etc, etc, necessary to do the scout SOA. This is still very clean under there.

Not sure why the driver shim wiggles on me but the passenger does not.

Well, a truss would be welded, and designed to help prevent housing flex. This would be bolted at the joints, and would simply be a good place to mount my shocks.

The problem I have is that as I measure my stuff vs droop, to get a shock long enough for the droop, the shock is too long for good stuff, if it is attached at the spring perches.

The way I solved this was to weld studs to my axles, directly below the upper shock mounting point. This part of the axle moves much less compared to the outboard portion. So, for the same length shock, the wheel could move as much as it needed without maxing or bottoming out the shock. Since I was trying to limit rear end bounce (when the whole rear moves up and down at once, vs one side or the other moving) it worked very very well.

When the studs stayed attached on the rear axle (while ramping), they did not limit stuff or droop. And they also did a good job of dampening bounce. I want to mount them in the same place, but without welding a stud onto the axle. The idea of the flat stock is that I would have a nice flat bar I could drill out and bolt the lower end of the shock to.

The system you talk about, bolting flat stock across the upper shock mounts, still won't allow full droop and stuff on my rig, if I measured correctly.

The nice little shock mounts rustoleum white made for me found their way onto the front spring plates. I bolted them to the spring plates, with the long leg down, then bolted the end of the front shocks through a hole I drilled at the bottom end. Puts the lower end of the front shocks even with center of axle housing. Works great. I am considering welding(having welded) a bolt to the axle housing in line with the lower shock point. Then, my lower shock bolt would go through the bracket, with a bolt on the backside, and into the bolt welded to the tube. I think that would be much stronger.

But, the biggest thing is that I want to move my rear shock lower mounting points inboard, to an almost vertical position, and it seems like using the flat stock to do it, would only require drilling a couple holes, and no welding, which we all know I am really, really bad at.

So,,,?? Would it work? What do you think?

Am I being silly again?


http://www.nwbinders.net/Tech/SOA/FrontShockMount.jpg

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: Hooper ]

Originally posted by Hooper:
<STRONG>Well, a truss would be welded, and designed to help prevent housing flex. This would be bolted at the joints, and would simply be a good place to mount my shocks.
</STRONG>

Well then, while you're at it, have it welded so you get the extra strength, too!

Heck, then you'll be all set for the 4-link and quarter-eliptical. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

<STRONG>
The problem I have is that as I measure my stuff vs droop, to get a shock long enough for the droop, the shock is too long for good stuff, if it is attached at the spring perches.

</STRONG>

Common problem in the rear of a Scout.

<STRONG>
Since I was trying to limit rear end bounce (when the whole rear moves up and down at once, vs one side or the other moving) it worked very very well.
</STRONG>

So you don't think you'll bottom out the shocks when you "bounce" down a hill with the rear suspension unloaded?

Say you put the Super Hooper on a lift at a shop.

The rear axle will droop until 1) the springs don't want to arch any more or 2) the shocks bottom out (or brake lines, etc)

Now the pumpkin is just as low as both of the housing ends, right?

When you drive up the ramp, does your leaf-spring really "droop" much more than it is when the frame is suspensed? It droops until the raised frame is actually pulling UP (holding) the axle, which is what's happening on the lift.

Thus, mounting the shocks in the middle, or on the ends, straight-up, you'll still have problems, right?

Granted, not as *often* if you mount the shocks in the middle. At least on the ramp the pumpkin probably stays roughly in the same spot as it does when sitting on all 4 tires "at rest" since the axle rotates around the diff.

But real world - too short is still too short. <IMG SRC="smilies/wink.gif" border="0">

<STRONG>
the same place, but without welding a stud onto the axle.
</STRONG>

Y'know, I've used left-over U-bolts and a piece of flat bar for shock mounts before, Pat.

Fit the U-bolt around the axle so the threads point either to the front or back. Add some steel strap to make it into a big "D" shape and tighten it up against the housing.

Then attach the shock to the left-over threads of the U-bolt sticking forward.

If nothing else, it'd be a good temp repair, and a good way of testing out the location without getting out the fire-stick.

<STRONG>
But, the biggest thing is that I want to move my rear shock lower mounting points inboard, to an almost vertical position, and it seems </STRONG>

They're pretty vertical as it is.

I think you're still going to want to lay 'em over to get more travel. I didn't look at Scoutillac's shock mounts *too* closely, but I'm betting they are in the center, but also leaned forward, not straight up.

That's what I need to do to both rigs.

Or heck, better yet Pat, just cut a hole in the bed and run the shocks up and attach 'em to the rollbar. <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Scoutillac shocks run forward at a pretty good angle.

You are right, if I unload the rear axle, completely, it may bottom out the shocks for droop. But, I am more concerned with compression. I don't lift both rear tires off the ground very often, hopefully, and if I do, the axle is probably moving with the frame, rather than independent of it, so it would be a very rare case that both rear tires were at full droop at the same time.

More common will be the one tire floating secenario.

I could get the hoop welded, I guess, but I am such a lousy welder, and I want this to be a project I do myself, that bolting appeals to me. I guess I could always weld something together later.

Hmm, using u-bolts and flat stock is a pretty good idea. I might look at that.

I know, the only real solution is to cut holes and build shock towers.

however, emperically, when I had the shocks mounted to the axles on studs, the shocks dampened well, and I had great articulation.

I'm going to see if I have a couple of old ujoints and some flat stock. Gonna try that idea. It appeals to me. Hmmm, have to think about that.
Gotta put a new exhaust donut and bolt in the flange first though. It is pretty noisy right now!!!
<IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Hooper, what size are your meats? Want to know how my 32 TSL's would look with an SOA <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

WARNING Long

Man you guys are making my F**N head hurt…..

I currently run 4" SkyJackers stock shackle in the front, extended in the rear (corrects the droop), with 32/10.5 TSL's. The SJ's are nice and plush, I had to install new body mounts, and 1 inch pucks (1.5" body lift) to clear the TSL's. I now have zero rub, and eight inches of upward travel around 12 inches total travel at each wheel. I know I want to go SOA in the rear, and have considered going with a front RS and leaving the 4" SJ's (ala Jim Weed). The bitch twists, a hell of a lot better than Josh C's with the Triangles. My biggest concern with the front/rear SOA is a front end that won't twist. The ground clearance and lift of the SOA are pluses, and I have enough springs to last a few years (2 full sets at last count, plus an extra set of custom built rears <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ). Looking at my other stock Scout, I would only have 4 inches of upward travel with an SOA compared to my current 8. At full upward travel the SJ's have an inverted arch, not good for the life of stock springs, really bad for the plush SJ's. Here are the options I am considering:

Option 1, Leave the existing springs, add recessed U-bolts, and cut the shit out of the fenders when I move up in tire size. I know how she's going to ride, I don't know how long the springs will last, and I don't have the SOA clearance.

Option 2, Rear SOA, leave the front SJ's and add dropped spring mounts and front recessed U-bolts. Some fender cuttn, Front should flex with the SJ's, buy a new set of front springs so I can have a set out to be rearched once a month <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Option 3, Rear SOA, front RS with 4" SJ's, according to Hopper this is the worst method <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

Option 4, full SOA, you know why and how.

I may start with the rear SOA, only see how I like it, then do the front if I'm in the mood. I may also consider SOA with 2" AAL to firm up the springs and give me a little extra room between the frame and axle in the front. Who knows F** it I'll wheel it 'til I'm bored and then start screwn with it. I have an IH truck front end already setup for SOA, that I need to narrow and twist, so the front won't be so bad for me. Plus for a $100.00 a company in CO will do the hi-steer conversion. I've got the number if interested, or search the BB archives. Also on the BB SJ is selling an AAL for the 4" rears to fix the droop.

Just my thoughts, too much time think'n and not enough doin <IMG SRC="smilies/eyemouth.gif" border="0">

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by jdjanda:
<STRONG>WARNING Long

Man you guys are making my F**N head hurt…..

I currently run 4" SkyJackers stock shackle in the front, extended in the rear (corrects the droop), with 32/10.5 TSL's. The SJ's are nice and plush, I had to install new body mounts, and 1 inch pucks (1.5" body lift) to clear the TSL's. I now have zero rub, and eight inches of upward travel around 12 inches total travel at each wheel. I know I want to go SOA in the rear, and have considered going with a front RS and leaving the 4" SJ's (ala Jim Weed). The bitch twists, a hell of a lot better than Josh C's with the Triangles. My biggest concern with the front/rear SOA is a front end that won't twist. The ground clearance and lift of the SOA are pluses, and I have enough springs to last a few years (2 full sets at last count, plus an extra set of custom built rears <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0"> ). Looking at my other stock Scout, I would only have 4 inches of upward travel with an SOA compared to my current 8. At full upward travel the SJ's have an inverted arch, not good for the life of stock springs, really bad for the plush SJ's. Here are the options I am considering:

Option 1, Leave the existing springs, add recessed U-bolts, and cut the shit out of the fenders when I move up in tire size. I know how she's going to ride, I don't know how long the springs will last, and I don't have the SOA clearance.

Option 2, Rear SOA, leave the front SJ's and add dropped spring mounts and front recessed U-bolts. Some fender cuttn, Front should flex with the SJ's, buy a new set of front springs so I can have a set out to be rearched once a month <IMG SRC="smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0">

Option 3, Rear SOA, front RS with 4" SJ's, according to Hopper this is the worst method <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0">

Option 4, full SOA, you know why and how.

I may start with the rear SOA, only see how I like it, then do the front if I'm in the mood. I may also consider SOA with 2" AAL to firm up the springs and give me a little extra room between the frame and axle in the front. Who knows F** it I'll wheel it 'til I'm bored and then start screwn with it. I have an IH truck front end already setup for SOA, that I need to narrow and twist, so the front won't be so bad for me. Plus for a $100.00 a company in CO will do the hi-steer conversion. I've got the number if interested, or search the BB archives. Also on the BB SJ is selling an AAL for the 4" rears to fix the droop.

Just my thoughts, too much time think'n and not enough doin <IMG SRC="smilies/eyemouth.gif" border="0">

Joe <IMG SRC="smilies/smokin.gif" border="0"></STRONG>


SOA front and rear, especially if you have an IH truck front end already. Easy to do that way.

4" of up travel on front SOA?
I think I have quite a bit mre htan that, but I have the XLC's, so 4" may be right for non XLC springs.

Measure your total travel on the front SOA, and I think it will beat the total travel of your lift springs. Total travel is more important than stuff or droop measured separately.

Usually, bump stops are not what limit your stuff. Tires into sheet metal are your limiters, although my 33's seem to stuff really well without making contact, anything larger and you will be rubbing.

DK if this helps.

Patrick