OK I'm editing this post as my inflammatory sense of humor is apparently NOT appreciated by everyone. I just had a great conversation with Rich and I think a little clearing of the air is in order. First my name is Jim and I've been doing Warn in trophy class since '99 I spoted for Jason Tharp in ARCA (RRCA) the last two seasons.

I think some kind of organization of competitors IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SPORT TO GROW. I've worked in concert promotion and artist management, the promoter, long enough to recognize both sides of the situation. Shoot the bearer of bad news if you like, but, it's time to get organized if you want to get paid! Everyone wants the best for the sport but how do we achieve that? I would say communication. Rich was kind enough to talk with me this morning (10-11-02) but how many people are in this thing? There are only 24 hours in a day and organizing MAY simplify things.

JUST MY OPINION I MAY BE WRONG.


Would anyone like to create a COMPETITORS UNION? We need Jimmy Hoffa, is that you or someone you know? Seriously if you would like to be considered or would like to nominate someone for an acting position until articles of incorporation can be drawn speak up now!! Please realize the amount of work needed to make this happen. This is not a popularity contest but just like the NRA needs a "celebrity" like Charelton Heston it would be nice to have a charismatic leader for a union.

Lance, as you and Mike are team#1 in RCCA this year, big dog on the board and would be the obvious choice, if you don't feel that this would create a conflict of interest or be too much of a time burden, I would like to nominate you as acting chairman until this thing can become.

I know everyone hates polls but that could be a simple way to handle the nomination process. I assume that there would be some way to verify "competitor status" to qualify the votes.

Below is a post fromhttp://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=82910&perpage=25&pagenumber=5


COMPETITORS UNION

Driver, spotter would you like to NEGOTIATE or be told "how it's going to be" by the event sponsors? Protesting rule changes is not a substitute for having meaningful participation in the decisions which cost you money or possibly your life. No offense to the people who built this sport, Bob, Ranch, but this is America not the Soviet Union or Iraq and allowing the folks who make you money to help with the rulemaking process is only fair. If anyone is interested I'll create a new thread and let's get the ball rolling before next season. When I raised this subject with Bob Hazel in Las Cruces he was open and an "input" committee was his idea. A good start but not really enough. Now that the money is beginning to appear it's high time that those at risk had an opportunity to have input. Pick the top ten teams if you like, anything is better than nothing. Just let me know where to send the money to get my license and membership card like every other motorsport.

i would never join anything like that, there are enough different series that we have a choice on where we can go. and besides if i don't like something, i leave

Talk about creating a rift between the competetors and promoters before one even really exsisted:eek:

So what do you really hope to accomplish with this. No matter what you are going to have people with more influence on the promoters than others($$$$$$$$$$$). Who will finance this, the members? I don't think that many people want to pay any more fees than we already do. I understand your cause, but why make it more political than it already is? Everything changes. Somebody will have something next year that everyone else will say is unfair. Just roll with the punches.

what the fawk?!?!.. hell no

I'll add my input here early.........

First of all, all competitors are free do do what ever they wish to do. There are no contracts to sign between the promoters and a union.

Next if a competitor wishes to address any issue with me, they are more than welcome, and likewise I with them.

Also, I've tried to just get the drivers to help with the Mod Stock rules and after months have started to get suggestions (minor ones at that). By the way, for those of you that have made suggestions, thank you.

Lastly, (at this point) if a teams does not like what a promoter is doing, they have many options to choose from. And one of those options would be tp start a union or another competition series.

Rich

I say vote with your entry fee. If you don't like the rules don't enter the event. Until all the rules are unified, and all the different series are operating by the same rules a driver/spotter committee would not be effective. I think from what I am reading from Big Rich by the end of next season all the competitions will be playing by the same set of rules. At that point a driver/spotter committee should be considered.

Joe

Originally posted by jdjanda
I think from what I am reading from Big Rich by the end of next season all the competitions will be playing by the same set of rules. At that point a driver/spotter committee should be considered.
Joe

First let me say, not all the promoters are interested in working together to make things uniform. And Yes, there are some who are interested.

Rich

as md already stated I think it would creat a rift where no exists and at this point do more harm than good.

Rich, You are the solution not the problem.
Like you said not all will cooperate.


If I'm paying to compete another $50 a year to license is 1/3 of a u-joint, who cares. Frankly it could be done for $10 a person ($20 per team) No offense but at this point money matters very little vs building an illegal rig because there is no unified rulebook. The advantage from the promoter side is accountability. No longer would you have to hear the endless bitching if the changes are approved by the participants. It has the potential to be win win IF done correctly.

would it be nice if all the promoters could work together to have the same rules or least the same vehicle qualfications..this doesnt make much difference in the unlimited class.. but in pro modifed or legends class there seem to be some differences...im work all winter on my rig and if i cant go to a series because if doesnt oh well i guess.. i would to be able to go to as many as possible..the point im am getting at is that some we should at least boycot the events that are unable to comprise and come up with vehicle specs that are the same across the nation.. as for the rules about how the event is run(example getting points for using a strap). I just dont think thats such a big deal, maybe im wrong..I guess in the end if u dont like something about a competiton just dont go.. If your not having fun stay home!!:rolleyes:

Great another Union:rolleyes: Then everyone can strike right before a big event and fawk all of the spectators..............Nope, No Thanks, No Way, Period.

Can you tell I am in a Union and Hate It:mad:

:rainbow:

Originally posted by dumass

\If I'm paying to compete another $50 a year to license is 1/3 of a u-joint, who cares. Frankly it could be done for $10 a person ($20 per team) No offense but at this point money matters very little vs building an illegal rig because there is no unified rulebook. The advantage from the promoter side is accountability. No longer would you have to hear the endless bitching if the changes are approved by the participants. It has the potential to be win win IF done correctly. [/B]

You will never get all of the competitors to agree. To many schools of thought. Heavy vs Light, Rear steer, forced articulation to many ways to build a rig. Everybody wants the rules to be in their favor. Safety needs to be addressed better in the rules, and if the rules are in writting then then need to be followed. Build a rig that is qualified in all of the series. It's %80 percent driver anyways.

Originally posted by dumbass
Would anyone like to create a COMPETITORS UNION?

That's about the dumbest things I've ever heard. A Union?

That's the last thing that needs to happen in the sport!

Originally posted by IndyCJ


That's about the dumbest things I've ever heard. A Union?

That's the last thing that needs to happen in the sport!

I agree

Originally posted by KYODER


You will never get all of the competitors to agree. To many schools of thought. Heavy vs Light, Rear steer, forced articulation to many ways to build a rig. Everybody wants the rules to be in their favor.

Yes everyone wants to use the rules to their advantage, let's just try and make the rules the same across the board, so you can compete in different series without having to resort to the lease common denominator (read disadvantage). The sponsors and manufactures will be much happier if they can sponsor one team that can show up at all the large events regardless of series or promoter and compete.

There should only be safety related rules for unlimited hence unlimited, stock class needs to be well defined (and loose the windshield wiper rule :rolleyes:) For Pro Mod, or Legend the rules absolutely need to be the same throughout.

This is a stupid idea. Unions *typically* cater to the least common denominator. Talk about stifling innovation. Next thing you know, it will be like the race car series where everybody has to drive the same model rig, same engine, just to keep everyhting "fair". No thanks! I hope to start competing next year and I'd like to make up my own mind what I'm going to drive.

i think this all started form sports in the roughs bull shit. i myself will never have anything to do with them unless they change their ways. and i know i am not alone. the better promoters will get the rigs, cut and dry. they have to compete with each other, for the rigs to show up. bob has screwed many and he will reap what he has sewn. mike

I guarantee that a very high percent of the competitors in the various competitions would not want to Unionize. They can sit back together, eat together, bullshit together and party together but when it comes down competing it is pretty much dog eat dog.

Competitors may or may not agree on rules or promoters. However, it is usually an individual or a small portion of people that agree upon the same thing. If a Union should be developed it would come down to MAJOR arguments, voting and promoters that would ultimately want to just give up. I mean, think about it, if a promoter thinks he is going to always have to defend himself and his decisions do you think he will agree it is worth it?

I suppose its just a coincedence that this was posted when lots of competitors are away for SuperCrawl?? :rolleyes:

I've competed in the ERoCC series, and plan to again next year. I can say that the folks running ERoCC are doing a bang up job. They listen to the competitors input and if necessary, act on it.
I doubt you'd find too many folks that competed in ERoCC willing to join a "drivers" union.. I know I wouldn't.

Think nascar... You don't think there are (100's of) drivers that would fill the positions left by a "drivers strike"???

I guess bottom line: Yeah I think its a dumb idea.

Don't like the series? Don't compete in it. I think the one doing bang up jobs will be around in a year or two and the one(s) screwing up won't.

Now how about tackling insurance... That would be a good one :D Liability and medical when in competition. Because the current insurance rules are a joke. Read the fine print on your auto policy and I'll bet you find that you aren't covered in competitive events. :mad:

Originally posted by rkcrawl

Now how about tackling insurance... That would be a good one :D Liability and medical when in competition. Because the current insurance rules are a joke. Read the fine print on your auto policy and I'll bet you find that you aren't covered in competitive events. :mad:

Here is something that I completely agree with, and CalROCS insurance agent has been trying to find something......
it's not been easy and no luck yet.:(

Rich

Most motorcycle races nowadays require you to have personal medical coverage, it will cover you in comps.

Personally I am happy with the communication we have now with promoters, but as the sport grows it may not be practical for every person that has a question to call up Rich and spend 20 minutes bs'ing about how they think it ought to be done. I know I have pulled Rich's ear a few times and he is allways there to listen and answer.

If at some point Rich or others asked us to funnel our questions and comments through a third person I would have no problem with that.

I don't see any need for a union to try to tell him what we want, he is allready bending over backwards to please us!

I dont know, Ill have too see if joining a union will aversely affect any of my multi million dollar endorsements.
I dont see any reason for a union at this point.
Its not like anyone has an upper hand and is taking advantage of a lopsided situation.
Lets concentrate on making the sport more publicly recognized, and continue to improve its marketability.
The last thing anyone who has put up with the major leagues bullshit wants to see, is more unions.
I wouldnt be against licensing the competitors to possibly make it easier to insure.

Do you think that I could possibly trade 3 of my Rookie Trading Card, for a 2002 Mike Shaffer Card?,......I didnt think so:(

WTF .no way If you don't like
it don't go. I go to many different areas and races. Some of them sanctioned and some not. Most of the ones that are not follow all the sanctioned event rules as far as the rig goes. The others concerning the event are very close. Thus the drivers meeting. everyone at the event is running by the same rules.

Sorry for starting the thread when "all the competitors" are gone. Please post your number from any events you've been in if you are a driver or the vehicle number if you are a spotter and would like to comment for the record. I agree that life is complicated as it is but input from the folks you are trying to help always makes the job of a promoter run smoother. Again this is not intended to be an adversarial situation and I apologize if the word "union" sounds confrontational, it was used as a term in the “New RCCA Rules??”thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=82910
prior to my starting this thread. It is a fact of life that communication is simplified if a group's interests can be expressed in a concise fashion by a representative they trust. We all count on the leadership of our elected club officers and groups like Blue Ribbon Coalition to help connect with those people who can help us to enjoy the sport we love. We rely on event promoters to network with big sponsors who are making this sport a reality. If all the people who work so hard to build their rigs and sacrifice their time and money could do so without fear of a sudden and unexpected rule change, regarding the vehicle equipment, creating a last minute illegal modification problem. For example those who built 4 wheel steer rigs for Trophy Class at last year's Las Cruces Warn event didn't seem particularly pleased to find out about the new penalty points at the drivers meeting the day before competition. Or perhaps the news that Ranch bought a new device to test wall thickness on the RCCA events and planned to measure in places where .120 wall tube wasn't used and didn't allow for the differences between mild steel, DOM and chromoly tube. Or as in the thread I mentioned above, imposed new weight restrictions making your new single seater illegal. There are many more examples where simple advanced info could have saved a lot more time and money than it would cost to create some sort of a driver/spotter “interaction group”. Some sort of organization which could help alleviate the disagreements, and there will always be disagreements, in planning, clarify rule changes in advance of their imposition and simplify the lives of ALL competitors and promoters. We're all probably people who can "do it myself if I want it done right". That's what makes competitors. But it can be nice to have someone who can help settle disagreements rather than just not competing. If you are spectators, thanks for your support, without you this sport will never go anywhere! Your input is always welcome, you are the reason we're out there! Better interaction will create classes in which every wheeler who wants to go for it has the opportunity! Telling the promoters that you want to run to will in the long haul grow this new motorsport in the same way drag racing and NASCAR grew from grassroots local involvement. If you're not at the Supercrawl but want to run next time all you need is the opportunity afforded by Promoters knowing you are willing to put your money where your mouth is and new classes and events will become a reality!

Not that it really matters to me, because I am a promoter and would not be part of said union if one was started, but since I have recieved many phone calls from competitors since this tread started (not all are in farmington). What is your interest in the competitions, are you a competitor now or have been in the past, you ask for others to post who they are are, while you post under an assumed "Mr Dumass" (do-moss) as in the TV commerical. I only ask because no one else seems to care to.
Nearly everyone here has been on this stage for quite awhile, and their real names are known, and yours is?

Not trying to start anything, but some have asked me if I knew who you were.

Rich Klein

Originally posted by dumass
The advantage from the promoter side is accountability. No longer would you have to hear the endless bitching if the changes are approved by the participants.

Would you give the inmates control of the asylum? I wouldn't. What you're essentially asking for is the following:

The chronic whiners, complainers, & DNF's are going to gang up on the handful of truely competitive folks & outlaw their rigs. In mud racing, the only sanctioning bodies that have the respect of the racers are those that severely LIMIT the power of the racers to make change. Same would be true of any competitive sport.

TEX

Originally posted by Big Rich
What is your interest in the competitions, are you a competitor now or have been in the past, you ask for others to post who they are are, while you post under an assumed "Mr Dumass" (do-moss) as in the TV commerical. I only ask because no one else seems to care to.
Nearly everyone here has been on this stage for quite awhile, and their real names are known, and yours is?


that's exactly what I was thinking Rich. Who the heck is this guy ?

- jack

Originally posted by Big Rich
while you post under an assumed "Mr Dumass" (do-moss) as in the TV commerical.

I was thought it meant dumb ass. :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Not a competitor, so maybe I have nothing worthy to contribute, but I think if you look at attempts and the history of collective cooperation in motor sports, you would find that generally most times the drivers themselves simply aren't able to find enough common ground to unionize around in the first place.

The one exception to this has always been safety - when the driver's feel a track is unsafe, and the promoter is not doing enough to rectify the situation, they have usually been pretty successful in having changes made under the threat of a boycott.

But under most other circumstances there usually is not enough common ground for them to rally around in the first place, IMHO mostly because the driver's actually make any 'money' they might make from sponsors, not from prize money from the promoters.

IMHO.

Originally posted by dumass
When I raised this subject with Bob Hazel in Las Cruces he was open and an "input" committee was his idea. [/B]

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

LOL!!!!

sheesh!:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Big Rich
Not that it really matters to me, because I am a promoter and would not be part of said union if one was started, but since I have recieved many phone calls from competitors since this tread started (not all are in farmington). What is your interest in the competitions, are you a competitor now or have been in the past, you ask for others to post who they are are, while you post under an assumed "Mr Dumass" (do-moss) as in the TV commerical. I only ask because no one else seems to care to.
Nearly everyone here has been on this stage for quite awhile, and their real names are known, and yours is?

Not trying to start anything, but some have asked me if I knew who you were.

Rich Klein

I am with Rich. Not that it really matters but tell us your genuine interest in the matter. Are you a digruntiled competitor? or a Pro-Union advocate or Union member?

I for one have competed and plan on more competitions in the future (CalRocs) as a spotter. I for one can speak for myself and dont need a Union to represent me on my opinions.

Good intent, I think, but bad wording.
UNION is just too live and politicized a concept, with the longshoremen currently in the news. How about ASSOCIATION?

With an association, you can get the benefits (like medical/liability insurance), as well as a single, primary voice for communicating safety issues & rules problems, and potentially a press agent to drive publicity and exposure -- without all the collective bargaining overhead, dues, and etc, of an official union.

FWIW, this is NOT a new concept, it was being discussed from the inception of ARCA and mulled over in JV at the very first SITR RCC (dumass may be referring to me when he cites mention of a union in http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82910&perpage=50&pagenumber=2 ) ... the reality is that there is always a small rift between promotors and drivers, especially in the heat of competition.

The promoters, in most cases, have been doing a pretty decent job communicating with the drivers, so this hasn't swelled up to be a huge priority yet, but it may. The question is will the desire for a collective voice (NOT collective bargaining) ever surpass the individualiztic bent of many 'wheelers and most competitors? Dunno 'bout that one... fun to watch and gab about in the interim, tho! :D

Randii

I have edited the thread start post.

Is it time to have a forum for Competition? Are there reps from RCAA, EROC, ProRocks on the board as well as Big Rich that would monitor, and respond to topics?

I know at least two ERoCC folks are on PBB. Trailkeeper and Jeepinchad.

Too many forums already IMO

i do not believe we need a union per say....... but an association of drivers AND spotters yes, main reason would be for insurance issues......... i wanna go out there and kick some ass..... but if i cant make it to work? then what? event insurance would be great! and it may be easier to obtain through an association vs an individual...

I am in charge of tech and the judging for ERoCC. I'm a major lurker here on pirates. I like to know what is going on and what the competitors think of our events. The organizers for ERoCC discuss competitor issues as they come up and try to anticipate and avoid problems. We also have our own BB at http://forum.jrocc.com/ where we encourage competitors and spectators alike to voice their problems or concerns.

Management speaking......screw the Union dude....

Originally posted by dumass
Sorry for starting the thread when "all the competitors" are gone. Please post your number from any events you've been in if you are a driver or the vehicle number if you are a spotter and would like to comment for the record.

I already posted a comment for the record. But just to answer the above question.

Kelly Clifford is my name, wheeling is my game. :D
Women's Competition - 5th in the Series of 2002
Calrocs - 10th in the Series of 2002

unions have done nothing but hurt american enterprise. a drivers union will ruin our sport

I think most here know who I am. Spotter in Warn/S.I.T.R since '99, Calrocs, Invited but not at Supercrawl. 1/2 of team long arm controversy.


I'm with Randy on this. Union no. Association for purposes of insurance and safety issues, maybe.

I think dumass's point that finding out your rig isn't legal in the class you thought it was OK for at tech inspection, or at a drivers meeting is B.S. There are some B.S. rules no doubt. I bet most professional motorsports competitors have similar issues.

The rules need to be up well in advance of the start of the season. I don't think a couple months is soon enough. I don't think 6 months is too far, or unfair. It would be great if all the sanctioning bodies worked together on rules, but it's not reality. I hope that voting with our entry $$ works to get those organizations that don't try to keep class rules similar to get with it or get out.

All the B.S. about differences in points/judging rules from one sanctioning body to the next who cares, if you don't like an organizations system, don't come back, or don't bitch. All I care about is if you make a rule stick with it unless it becomes a safety issue.


Oh almost forgot....
I AM your charismatic leader. Able to speak and spell (sometimes) well. Send me all your $$$$ now.

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Steve N
Oh almost forgot....
I AM your charismatic leader. Able to speak and spell (sometimes) well. Send me all your $$$$ now. :flipoff2:
Pass the koolaid, I'm lacing up my purple Nike's now! :flipoff2:

Randii

Shupe Doo where are you #1 in SuperCrawl


Ri"m Rover Rear KICKIN' SOME RASS!!!!!!!

:flipoff2: