All,

So how do winch ropes handle heat? I've heard stories of winch cables getting scalding hot on long pulls. I'm not crazy about the idea of my rope snapping in the middle of a long pull that might save my life.

-Jack

Originally posted by IronBenderII
All,

So how do winch ropes handle heat? I've heard stories of winch cables getting scalding hot on long pulls. I'm not crazy about the idea of my rope snapping in the middle of a long pull that might save my life.

-Jack
Two words:

They Don't

Thanks but do you have any more info? Like specific properties of the rope, past experiences, etc?

-Jack

fwIk: The warn lo profile series generates a lot of heat if you spool out. Freespool and spool in should not create heat in the cable. Spool in will generate heat in the motor. When you spool out, I *believe* there is no bypass for the cone brake like when you freespool so it generates a tremendous amount of friction and therefore heat in the drum.

Get an 8274 and fogetta 'boutit.

I have been running rope for about 3 years now and it has been flawless. It has been drug across rocks and whatever else I could dish out.

I have heard that the rope tends to act like an insulator and keep the heat in as opposed to wire that tends to pull the heat away and dissipate it. I also heard that you get the most buildup of heat when you pay out the cable instead of freespooling it.

I have made it a point to always freespool and I have never had an overheating problem.

I was pulling a vehicle up a long incline with a lot of loose rock and it took about 10 minutes of straight pulling, with it nearly maxing out the HS9500 for most of the 10 minutes. It was warm, but no where near hot.

After nearly 3 years of use, my rope is still in very good shape. If something happens to this rope, I will invest in another and I have a brand new 125' of wire cable hanging on the wall in my garage.

From what I've "heard", a winch will not generate enough heat to fawk up a winch rope;)

I have been running it for about two years on a 8274. I have absoulutly abused it!!! My truck weighed 6800+ and I used 5/16" rope with no failures or bleeding hands. I love it. Just got some for my rear winch. I will never go back to cable.
Dan

Thanks but do you have any more info? Like specific properties of the rope, past experiences, etc?
I have the Master Pull line -- 4x4Wire.com did a review on it early on: http://www.4x4wire.com/4x4/reviews/masterpull/

We just published a review on the Off Road Only product:
http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/oro_xline02/
I have no personal experience with this new rope, but the specs look damn good, especially for heat resistance...

Once you use a good winch rope, you'll never want to go back to wire rope.

Randii

Ran a rope for 2 years on my hs9500i with no problems yet. Mostly uphill pulls

Here is a link to the manufacture of most of the blue ropes. It's called AmSteel Blue 12 strand. If you dig around on there you can find what your looking for. I think that site also has how you weave it on the ends. http://www.samsonrope.com/home/newindex.cfm

Heat has a direct effect on the ropes tensile strength. All synthetic ropes are affected by heat to some degree. Most ropes show a gradual decrease in strength as the temperature is increased. 12 strand Plasma rope, by Puget Sound rope has critical temperature of 150 deg F At this temperature the rope will lose approximately 20% of its room temperature tensile strength. This strength loss is temporary and the rope will recover its strength upon cooling. It has a melting point of 284 deg F

In addition to the immediate strength loss synthetic ropes also experience long term degradation referred to as "heat aging". This strength loss is permanent and accumulative. In severe cases it may be accompanied by discoloration of the rope but usually there is no visual indication of heat exposure.

As for low profile winches not producing enough heat to cause a rope faiure.. Yes they do, more than enough,, I've seen it happen on a long spool out, vehicle was lowering itself over a wall. In power out with little weight on the rope, the brake is dragging and will heat up.. In power out with weight on the rope, the brake is fully engaged, and producing a lot of friction/heat.

I've been using 12 Strand Plasma 3/8 for more than a year now. It pulls had enough to do this
http://www.superford.org/registry/users/208/144/bent6.JPG .Here is a link to the thead (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85905)

I have also used 3/8 plasma on a 8274 for more than two seasons On the Team USA vehicle that went to AU for the Outback Challenge. No problems with either setup.

FWIW .

Bronco78 is right on the money on all accounts .Low mounts create heat/the rope has a limited life span as opposed to wire .

My profession ; Rigger/Crane driver.26 years.

Originally posted by fugly 2
FWIW .

Bronco78 is right on the money on all accounts .Low mounts create heat/the rope has a limited life span as opposed to wire .

My profession ; Rigger/Crane driver.26 years.

All this may be true, but the smallest rope winch you can buy (5/16") is rated at 13,700 lbs. So even if this is true (20% loss), it will still be rated at 11,000 lbs, higher than the majority of winches in use out there.

If you don't like those odds, get the 1/2", at it's 36,250 lb rating, even if it degrades 50% it will still be stronger than the winch can pull.

http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm

The new Master Pull rope has a heat sheild built in for the first wrap on the drum.. I think that is the one that I am going to use.

What kind of a heat sheald?

-Jack

Originally posted by IronBenderII
What kind of a heat sheald?

-Jack

Asbestos:D :flipoff2:

Is it something that slips over the rope? Me and a bunch of other guys are doing a mass buy on the Rock Stomper winch rope (shameless plug, we have 14 guys signed up already, email me @ jacovert@compucom.com for details). Anyway, I don't think that his rope has this and I'm wondering if this is a modification that we can do seperately. Can they be purchased from some place on their own?

I don't think this is a really big problem and not a common issue. But I'd like to offer it up as an option if one of the guys wants to do it.

-Jack

Originally posted by randii
[B]
We just published a review on the Off Road Only product:
http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/oro_xline02/
I have no personal experience with this new rope, but the specs look damn good, especially for heat resistance...

Once you use a good winch rope, you'll never want to go back to wire rope.

Randii

Who is the "real" manufacturer of the rope that Off Road Only sells as X-Line. I would like to look up the manufacturer's engineering specs on this PPTA stuff.

Anyone know anything about PPTA(poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide)?

Originally posted by Mustard Dog


Asbestos:D :flipoff2:

HAHAHA good one man :D :D :D :D
-Nate

I have herd that if the rope gets mud/sand particles in it that it will wear out faster. Any truth to that?




weeble

Originally posted by 350 Samurai


All this may be true, but the smallest rope winch you can buy (5/16") is rated at 13,700 lbs. So even if this is true (20% loss), it will still be rated at 11,000 lbs, higher than the majority of winches in use out there.

If you don't like those odds, get the 1/2", at it's 36,250 lb rating, even if it degrades 50% it will still be stronger than the winch can pull.

http://www.rockstomper.com/catalog/recovery/ropes.htm



OK .lets set the record straight " I'm the newbie"

350 Samurai ,what part of Ironbender11's question about HEAT affecting the rope DIDN'T you understand .If you had of taken the time to fully read his post ,you would see that Bronco78 and I answered in DIRECT relation to his questions .Nowhere in your link did I see/find any information regarding how the rope is affected by HEAT ( I could have missed it) .If you can prove that a synthetic winch rope is not affected by heat I would be interested .

Originally posted by fugly 2



OK .lets set the record straight " I'm the newbie"

350 Samurai ,what part of Ironbender11's question about HEAT affecting the rope DIDN'T you understand .If you had of taken the time to fully read his post ,you would see that Bronco78 and I answered in DIRECT relation to his questions .Nowhere in your link did I see/find any information regarding how the rope is affected by HEAT ( I could have missed it) .If you can prove that a synthetic winch rope is not affected by heat I would be interested .

Don't get your panties in such a wad. All I was saying was, that even if it is affected by heat or whatever, even to the point of 50% degredation, that it is still much stronger than you will probably ever need on a winch.

In other words, degredation by heat or whatever else is pretty much a non-factor.

EDIT: By the way, you didn't even answer, all you did was agree with Broncos answer

Originally posted by xjweeble
I have herd that if the rope gets mud/sand particles in it that it will wear out faster. Any truth to that?


Yes very much so... any one that wants to argue with me... bullshit. :D ;)

Dirt and sand grains get into the weaves and will eventually cut and fray strands of the synthetic.

This is one of the reason that rockclimbing rope have an outer sheath that is non load bearing. Yes it is a different type of rope with elastic properties, but it is exposed to the same type of conditions that a winch rope would be.

The rule with climbing rope is dont step on the rope, and use a tarp, because you were counting on it to save your life.

Of course you cant keep your winch rope out of the mud, but I think some type of terrain would make it silly to use.

If I used it in the pinebarrens it would get so much sand in it that it would wear in no time

TWARON : poly-(paraphenylene terephthalamide) (PPTA)

Technora is a para-aramid fiber independently developed by Teijin, which has been commercially available since 1987. It has high tensile strength, high modulus and excellent resistance to heat and chemicals, especially acids and alkalis.

Technora is made from copolymers and is produced in the different process from PPTA(poly-paraphenylene terephthalamide) .

For its superior properties as stated above, Technora is used in rubber reinforcement, ropes, protective goods, cement and plastic reinforcement and many other industrial applications.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Characteristics

(1) High tensile strength
The tensile strength of Technora is 28g/de(24.7cn/dtex,350kg/mm2), which is 8 times as strong as steel and 3 times as strong as fiberglass, polyester and nylon of the same weight. This property will serve significantly to reduce weight.

(2) Fatigue resistance
High tenacity fibers generally show a loss of strength against repeated abrasion, flexure and stretch, Technora has excellent fatigue resistance, as compared to the other high tenacity fibers.

(3) Dimensional stability
Technora has a stiff and highly oriented molecular structure which leads to a high modulus, low creep and low stress relaxation. Due to its low thermal shrinkage, it has good dimensional stability.

(4) Heat resistance
Technora has a decomposition temperature of 500C. It can be used at 200C for long periods of time and, even at 250C, it maintains more than half of its tensile strength that was measured at room temperature.

(5) Chemical resistance
Technora exhibits high resistance to both acids, alkalis and organic solvents. It is also resistant to sea water and steam.

Originally posted by Malltero


Yes very much so... any one that wants to argue with me... bullshit. :D ;)

Dirt and sand grains get into the weaves and will eventually cut and fray strands of the synthetic.



If I used it in the pinebarrens it would get so much sand in it that it would wear in no time

I have personally used this rope in the mud and left it dirty and used it again and again and again. For two years and this is the smaller rope 5/16 with a fullsize truck with NO failures. I dont recomend being as lazy as me. (I would worry more about how much beer is in the cooler) I'm shure mud and sand are not helping the rope, or your truck for that matter.
Dan

This stuff is built for industrial applications. It is designed to get dirty, wet, chemicals, etc. Like Dan just said, it can't help but again, this isn't your average rope. This stuff wears metal away. It's tough. Take a look at how many kinks are in your cable, Each one is a huge potential for failure... I always take my straps and such and hose them out really well to get at least some of the mud and dirt out. I always make make it a point to respool the winch line when I use it. Take care of what takes care of you.

-Jack

I tend to agree with Jack's comments above. How many kinked and frayed cables have you seen? I know mine is kinked and frayed all over the place.

I think rope is just as good as cable, but you need to care for it just as you need to care for a cable. Heat will affect rope as will extreme cold and dirt. As to how much????? who knows....just take good care of it. Remember that cables break too.

tZUKnami, thanks for the technical info on PPTA.

Originally posted by Malltero


Yes very much so... any one that wants to argue with me... bullshit. :D ;)

Dirt and sand grains get into the weaves and will eventually cut and fray strands of the synthetic.

This is one of the reason that rockclimbing rope have an outer sheath that is non load bearing. Yes it is a different type of rope with elastic properties, but it is exposed to the same type of conditions that a winch rope would be.

The rule with climbing rope is dont step on the rope, and use a tarp, because you were counting on it to save your life.

Of course you cant keep your winch rope out of the mud, but I think some type of terrain would make it silly to use.

If I used it in the pinebarrens it would get so much sand in it that it would wear in no time

When it gets dirty, toss it in your washing machine, its safe

would that be the dishwasher or the clothes washer? Remeber the post by the guy that put his transmission pan in the dish washer and ruined it... ha ha ha ha.

-Jack

Originally posted by IronBenderII
would that be the dishwasher or the clothes washer? Remeber the post by the guy that put his transmission pan in the dish washer and ruined it... ha ha ha ha.

-Jack

I've put mine in the clothes washer 3 or 4 times now, no bad effects that I can tell of. Still pulls hard enough to bend a warn winch.

We have also put my partners in the washer a time or two.

Do you use Tide with Color Guard tm? ha ha

If interested in rope, call TonyK at Rock Equipment, best prices and super customer service. Yes this is a shameless plug for a CalROCS sponsor, and yes he is the official supplier of rope for CalROCS. We will be making rope manditory for the 2003 season
(safety reasons out weigh any and all complaints about cost)

Rich

Can't beat my prices Rich. Try this on for size. 5/16" x 125 ft with 10 ft of abrasion guard a terminal end on one side and a loop on the other (with sleave) 131.75. Top quality workmanship from A VERY MUCH RESPECTED SUPPLIER ON THIS BOARD. All sizes and lengths available. Genuine Amsteel Blue. Email me for details before Friday @ jacovert@compucom.com.

I'm just saying to try Tony, he's a norcal local and the prices are good. I can't compare prices(don't remember the quote), but last time I was over at his place in Lincoln, he had plenty and so forth.

Rich

I'm sure he has great prices and any time past this week he is probably the place to go. I figured since you were plugging your buddy I'd take the opportunity to plug my mass buy. Oops, did I say that? POR foul!

-Jack

A few comments...

I have 130 feet of 3/8" Tech 12 (Technora). I will not use it as a primary winch rope. I will not even try it as a primary rope on my own truck. We got it in as a test/demo material, to see what it'd do. I took an end of it, and ran it, by hand, across the wheel lip on a 20" Rockwell wheel, back and forth, about a half dozen times. It frayed from the abrasion. I did the same with the Amsteel Blue, and it picked up some of the green from the wheel. That alone tells me that I don't want to run it. I have thought about using it as an internal first-layer material, but I honestly don't think it's worth it. It's nearly twice the cost of Amsteel Blue, is a lower strength, and with the abrasion non-resistance it's shown already, I just flat-out wouldn't be comfortable with it.

Here's what generates heat in a winch: powering out.
Powering in generates motor heat, not drum heat.
Freespooling generates no heat.
Powering out powers the drum against the brake. This is not a good thing, in terms of longterm brake life, nor is it a good thing for the winch motor, nor is it a good thing for the line, if it gets hot enough.

Personal experience is that the winch line will take 25 feet of power-out on an HS95i. I've never powered out farther than about 25 feet at a time, and that was no problem, but for the most part, I power out enough to relieve tension on the line, freespool to wherever I want to go, and then power in. If you power out long distances, with a planetary brake-in-drum winch, you can get the drum hot enough to damage the rope. I have yet to find such a situation in real-world 'wheeling, but I've heard from a few people who say they have. If you plan to lower yourself off a 50 foot wall... keep steel cable.

X-Line, as far as I know, is Tech 12, manufactured by Samson. http://www.samsonrope.com

The new MasterPull SuperRope is a different beast--it has an external sheath of something (I don't know what) over a UHMWPE core that's been redrawn to smaller size. It's very impressive stuff. Expensive, exotic, but very impressive. No, I can't get it; no, I'm not going to try. Sorry.

Sand and whatnot getting ground into the rope will eventually wear it out. Don't run it over, don't grind it into the sand, and you'll not likely ever have a problem with it. If it gets really filthy, you can (well, I can't--my wife will kick my butt) put it in the clothes washer (take off the hook first!) and wash it. Or get out the soap-n-water and wash it by hand.

5/16" is not the smallest Amsteel Blue comes in. It's also available in 1/4" with a 9200 pound break strength.

Any time past this week? Looks like even after this week, I'm still cheaper... and it sure was nice of RE to swipe the pic of *my* rope on *my* shop floor for their website.

Well guys, that is the supplier that I was speaking of. GOOD quality stuff...

Thanks Scott for addressing some of the concerns that people were having. Very good information. I don't use the winch to lower myself down many things so I'm very happy with going to rope.

How goes the phone calls with the cc info?

-Jack