While I was in the Navy I had the opportunity to attend "Machine Tool Operator" school and learn the basics of lathe and mill operations. It was a pretty basic course that lasted 2 (or 3, I can't remember) weeks, at the end I was able to produce a disc valve completely from scratch. . .so I learned turning, boring, tapering, threading, and knurling.

I really enjoyed the class and it looks like with the new job I might finally be able to afford to buy a lathe (and eventually a mill) of my own. . .I love messing around with these things and being able to make my own stuff.

I was hoping you might be able to help me out with what to look for and/or avoid when it comes to buying a lathe and mill.

I don't need anything SUPER fancy, no CNC capabilities. . .I'm looking for a reliable and accurate set-up that I can fit in my garage (3-car garage) and that I won't take up too much space, but will be large enough to make most parts for a dezert truck/buggy. I don't think I would need a lathe larger than 16" for that, but I could be mistaken. I want to be able to thread and taper for sure. . .when it comes to the mill I have MUCH less experience than with the lathe, so I don't really know where to start there.

I'm not averse to purchasing a used lathe and/or mill if the right one were to come along, but I see quite a few from places like Enco Tool and Grizzly Industrial that I could afford brand new. . .this is another area I was hoping for a little help on. . .I don't know how reliable/durable either companies products are.

Thanks for the help guys!

I was hoping you might be able to help me out with what to look for and/or avoid when it comes to buying a lathe and mill.

I don't own any Grizzly or Enco equipment, so no help. The thing w any import is that the factory/manufacturer changes w greater frequency than "name" brands, so what was good last year might not be this year.

Re the question above, for a lathe look at the details. Are the handles counterbalanced? Can the dials be easily zero'd, and is the scribing quality and easy to read, with lines that fully connect (I ran a new Sharp where there was something like a 3/16" gap between the dial scribes and the mark - made it surprisingly difficult to shoot for exact values)? Throw the lever for the carriage and cross feed - is it smooth with a positive feel of engagement, or does it require a mile of throw with little feel?

Mills can be a little different. Overall I'd say the relationship between the operator and machine is less intimate, so a cheaper machine *can* be ok. All the aftermarket electric powerfeeds are mostly the same, and feel is a little less important. Take a look at the X and Y table locks - esp if you're using a cheap machine or a worn machine you'll be using them A LOT.

For a milll I'd get a variable speed head and a DRO. The former saves a ton of time and the latter (combined with your table locks) can make even a sloppy machine accurate enough. If you've got a shitty back like me a power knee is awesome, but it's a luxury and not likely to show up on many used machines (unless you get something like a B-port Series II with mechanical feeds).

Thanks D60!

What does DRO stand for?

Also, what is a power knee? I've heard the term before, but I don't know what it is.

Thanks again!

Oh yeah. . .I thought the Grizzly was made in the USA. . .their headquarters is less than an hour away from me so I can very easily go there to check out their stuff ahead of time.

Since you are close to Grizzly, go look!!!!!
You will be surprised at how nice they are. All the Grizzly machines are imported, but I think they own the factories. They give that impression at the store in Springfield anyway, as well as in their catalogs. Their stuff is knockoffs of older USA made stuff.
Look for how much backlash there is in the feed screws, what I mean is, how far do you have to turn the handle before the function starts moving. MOst are adjustable, but if it has lots of backlash, it either hasn't been taken care of, or is worn past just adjusting things.
DRO= Digital Read Out. A VERY handy feature! (especially the older and worser I see):)
Power knee, would be on the vertical mill, the function that raises and lowers the knee that has the bed mounted on it. Another cool feature.
Check out the ways also, those are what the carraige (on the lathe) and the table (on the mill) ride on. Make sure they aren't worn too much, and make REAL sure they aren't dented up really bad.
I have a Bridgeport mill. 9" x 42" table size. I looked a long time for a variable speed mill. But I needed a phase converter anyway (mill is 3 phase, I only have single phase power), so in that case there is a variable output "something or other" that makes it single phase power from 3 and also can vary motor speed and not lose power, so you can find a step pulley mill, and still have variable speed, the step pulley Bridgeports cost less used than the variable speed ones. (the electronic experts will have to fill in the title of it.
A friend has a 10" x 50" table Enco, it is a knockoff of a Bridgeport (in my opinion), and is a very nice machine. Again, Enco's are imports. But nice ones.
Hope this helps some.

Harold that helps alot!

I'm familiar with the basic terms. . .ways, backlash, etc. . .just not power knee and DRO. I've seen the DRO's, but I've never used one. The Bridgeport at my welding school had a DRO, but it was broken so everything had to be done the old-school way.

Could someone explain the whole 3-phase vs. single phase thing in a practical end-user impact sort of way. I understand what the theoretical difference is. . .3 sine waves vs. a single sine wave, but what does that mean to me. . .as far as my power supply requirements (a home garage. . .I don't mind upgrading if it's something that I can do myself or if it's something that I can justify the end benefit for paying the outrageous electrician costs).

Thanks!

Could someone explain the whole 3-phase vs. single phase thing in a practical end-user impact sort of way. I understand what the theoretical difference is. . .3 sine waves vs. a single sine wave, but what does that mean to me. . .as far as my power supply requirements (a home garage. . .I don't mind upgrading if it's something that I can do myself or if it's something that I can justify the end benefit for paying the outrageous electrician costs).

to my knowledge, you can't get 3 phase power at a residence. you have to build a phase converter, or put a single phase motor on it.

My understanding is that the way most are converting 3 phase to single is through a VFD Variable Frequency Drive. It will increase or decrease the frequency of your household electricity to speed up or down the motor. Ie electricity runs at 60hrtz, a VFD will control the motor speed by changing the frequency. A bonus of a VFD is that it will convert single phase to 3 phase.

Thanks Iniviate. . .I just found out about the phase converters, and it sounds like there is no advantage for me to have 3-phase equipment in a home shop.

VFD is the term I was forgetting !! THANKS.
Only advantage to three phase is how cheap you can get stuff! Also WAS the only way to get variable speed motors (a.c. ones that keep their power anyway) but now with the VFD, that takes care of both issues. The VFD isn't that expensive either.
If you do get a phase converter, I think you would want a rotary phase converter for a mill, not the static converter.
I'm running my Bridgeport and my 3 phase electric hoist (2 ton) off the same converter, just not both at the same time, and opted for the rotary phase converter.

So I would be able to run 3-phase equipment off of residential single-phase equipment using a VFD?

The advantage would be cost of the equipment. . .and that's it?

You can get single-phase equipment with a variable speed motor (that will keep it's power) now though, right?

Thanks!

we have two ENCO mills, one a 1991 and one a 1992. bought both of them new and the first 12 years they where for production purposes only. both of them are better than our series 1 Bridgeport at work.

Dopeassjackson, thanks for passing your experience with Enco on.

I dunno if Enco did it in the early '90's, but now they offer their "regular" line and the Turn Pro line. If price is any indication, the Turn Pro's have gotta be better.

When I went to school we had a couple of "Micro Cuts" that looked just like the Enco Turn Pros. They were some of the tightest mills in the shop, but that was largely because they were the newest.

I now know what a Power Knee is (allows you to raise and lower the knee, the part that the saddle rests on, using power instead of manually with the hand crank) and I know what Power Feed is (like auto feed on a lathe when you are cutting threads), but I saw the term Power Drawbar in a catalog last night and I haven't heard that before. . .what is a Power Drawbar?

Thanks!

Power drawbar is fawking sweet IMO. Makes tooling changes much, much faster. Normally you have to hold the brake and then reach to the top of the head and use a 3/4" (assuming R8)wrench, vise handle, or "copter" to loosen the drawbar. Unthread entirely and then insert your new tool (collet, drill chuck, etc) and reverse procedure. But with a power drawbar you basically just push a button and something similar to an impact wrench does this for you.

Some guys claim they're more trouble than they're worth, and they fail often. Also if you plan carefully and try to use all tooling w a 1/2" shank you can just use a 1/2" collet for most of your ops. There are also quick change tooling systems available which allow you to just loosen a collar at the spindle and install a tool which is already locked into a proprietary holder. The advantage of this is that your Z depths remain constant, but probably more helpful for CNC work.

Also there are plenty of homebrew power drawbars out there. A search of machinist sites would net a lot. They really are little more than an impact wrench which slides down to get the drawbar, and then retracts.

If it were me - I'd get a power drawbar if you can afford it. I got an Aussie from MSC for $500 and used a free shipping code but have yet to install it. Once I install my 4" riser the drawbar will be that much harder to reach, and my wife can barely get at it now when she uses the machine.

Thanks again D60. . .that does sound like it would be a LOT more convenient and fast for tooling changes.

Thankfully I figured out what a riser was last night on my own so I don't have to ask you what that is!

Greatly appreciate all the help!

Some guys claim they're more trouble than they're worth, and they fail often.


The only drawback is you dont get a feel for how tight the tool is in the collet,but sure speeds up things for a production machine shop.

Well I dont have a grizzly lathe or mill but I do have one of their bandsaws. I have used it alot, built a 40' trailer, several smaller trailers, a couple race car chassis, and then just tons of random stuff, like 300 1 foot long pieces of 4130. That being said, after 3 years I heard a noise, the machine jammed and made a pop. I took the gearbox apart and 3 bearings were gone and it wiped out 2 gears. Great thing with grizzly is I went on their site, and they have ALL the3 parts to repair any part of every machine they sell. I ordered all new bearings, a shaft, and the gears, plus a hnalde I broke a while ago when I moved. $70 and I have a working saw. Took about 8 minutes online to order whatever I needed. Im extremely happy with that and their customer service is great. I had the first hss bandsaw blade I got with it break right away, I called them up and they sent me 2 bi metal blades free and told me they were sorry I had an issue. because of that, I will always reccomend them... It was not that easy to get parts or a repair for that matter on any other machine I have owned except for my miller welders, except they cost alot more to fix/purchase.

I didn't see a reply on phase converters to use 3 phase motors on single phase power. You can get one through enco, get one that is rated for the motor hp you are using. Don't get one rated higher thinking it will run more, they are matched to that hp motor and won't work. I got a deal on a bridgeport milling machine with 3 phase, I run it in my garage shop with a phase converter I bought from enco. It was around $100 bucks. Have been running it for 8 or 10 years now. Back then it was a lot easier to find a good used bridgeport than any other brand and a lot less expensive than a new import.

A VFD is different than a Phase Converter box. A VFD can do speed control where the Phase Converter just converts to 3 phase power.

I didn't see a reply on phase converters to use 3 phase motors on single phase power. You can get one through enco, get one that is rated for the motor hp you are using. Don't get one rated higher thinking it will run more, they are matched to that hp motor and won't work.

This would only be true for static converters, and only in some cases.

http://www.phase-a-matic.com/StaticApplicationNotes.htm#WHAT HORSEPOWER RANGE

"The first motor to start on the converter must fall within the minimum and maximum horsepower range on the converter. However, after the first motor has started, motors below the minimum range may be started and can usually be left running as the main motor is stopped and started."

Enco sells Phase-a-Matic, but they're a bit spendy. There are less expensive alternatives.

However if the OP is looking for a mill AND a lathe, and looking to run them both on one converter, I think an RPC (rotary phase conv) would be his best bet.

One thing to look for on a lather is the wear on the ways. The unside down "^" itself. They should be precision 45 deg. When work they wear at the top of the"^". If you take a precision "V" block to a new machine there will not be any gaps in the "V" to the "^" way. If it's got alot of wear the "V" block will rattle side to side in the "^". From that you will see taper in a long cut. You will usually see wear of course right near the chuck in the normal working area. And depending on the size of the lathe the wear will gradually decrease as you go away from the working area toward to tailstock.

Backlash should be minimull, mill or lathe dials. If there is alot I would pass. Some good info in previous posts too. Bring an indicator and check runout on the spindle bor where the collet contacts in the spindle nose on the mill, and the chuck mounts on a lathe. Our work out POS Bridgeport mill runs out .002. It's a junky mill here at work. Endmills "swing" instead of turning true. Most mills will have a very very small amount of runout, just a couple of tenths usually but you can usually indicate an endmill in or a reamer or whatever tool your using for a more precision cut. But .002 and it's heavily worn like ours.

The spindle tapers can be reground.
Just depends on how much money you want to put into the machine.

This would only be true for static converters, and only in some cases.

http://www.phase-a-matic.com/StaticApplicationNotes.htm#WHAT HORSEPOWER RANGE

"The first motor to start on the converter must fall within the minimum and maximum horsepower range on the converter. However, after the first motor has started, motors below the minimum range may be started and can usually be left running as the main motor is stopped and started."

Enco sells Phase-a-Matic, but they're a bit spendy. There are less expensive alternatives.

However if the OP is looking for a mill AND a lathe, and looking to run them both on one converter, I think an RPC (rotary phase conv) would be his best bet.

I read over the notes on the phase-a-matic and the hp limitation info. You are starting the first motor to the rating of static converter, ie a 5hp motor with a 4-8hp phase converter, you can run a second smaller motor basically using the first motor as a rotary converter. (Look at Method#2)
http://www.phase-a-matic.com/StaticInstallation.htm
I think you would have to keep the first motor running as long as you were running the second. I remember seeing a rotary phase converter someone had made by taking a big 3 phase motor and winding it up with a smaller single phase motor with a belt and manual tensioner (basically a lever (2x4) with a pulley). Once you got the 3 phase spinning up you could switch it on such that it would run on single phase, and at the same time generate 3 phase power that would run your 3 phase machines.

Anyway, I'm just saying this out loud to mull over.

id have to say the highest quality lathe ive used is a 16' summit and an 8' sharpe. the summit had a grizzly industrial dro that was tits. imho if money is tight id buy a lesser machine and fit it with a dro. not to mention alot of the older units are just tough as nails and cool.

Well I dont have a grizzly lathe or mill but I do have one of their bandsaws. I have used it alot, built a 40' trailer, several smaller trailers, a couple race car chassis, and then just tons of random stuff, like 300 1 foot long pieces of 4130. That being said, after 3 years I heard a noise, the machine jammed and made a pop. I took the gearbox apart and 3 bearings were gone and it wiped out 2 gears. Great thing with grizzly is I went on their site, and they have ALL the3 parts to repair any part of every machine they sell. I ordered all new bearings, a shaft, and the gears, plus a hnalde I broke a while ago when I moved. $70 and I have a working saw. Took about 8 minutes online to order whatever I needed. Im extremely happy with that and their customer service is great. I had the first hss bandsaw blade I got with it break right away, I called them up and they sent me 2 bi metal blades free and told me they were sorry I had an issue. because of that, I will always reccomend them... It was not that easy to get parts or a repair for that matter on any other machine I have owned except for my miller welders, except they cost alot more to fix/purchase.

That's a really good thing in my opinion and is definitely something to think about considering how close they are to me. . .customer service is VERY important.

I'm working in a machine shop in a shipyard now (not in the lathe/mill section though), but a lot of the guys that I'm working with are machinist. . .most of them have been doing this for over 20 years so when I'm not busy at my workstation I run over to their stations and see what they are working on and see if they will teach me/let me do their work for them.

Hopefully I'll pick up some good techniques/tips and get more familiar with the machines this way while I'm saving up.

Thanks for all the stuff you guys have posted so far. . .it has been very helpful and informative!!!

That's a really good thing in my opinion and is definitely something to think about considering how close they are to me. . .customer service is VERY important.

I'm working in a machine shop in a shipyard now (not in the lathe/mill section though), but a lot of the guys that I'm working with are machinist. . .most of them have been doing this for over 20 years so when I'm not busy at my workstation I run over to their stations and see what they are working on and see if they will teach me/let me do their work for them.

Hopefully I'll pick up some good techniques/tips and get more familiar with the machines this way while I'm saving up.

Thanks for all the stuff you guys have posted so far. . .it has been very helpful and informative!!!
shipyard? what company you working for? i used to work for trident seafoods

If you do this, there is no turning back. Tons of time and money will be spent for the rest of your life.

First I'd buy the nicest Bridgeport you can find. DRO and tooling included. The spend about 3 grand on a nice lathe maybe more. I like the Colchester Clausing ones we have at school.

Here's my set up
1947 "Round Ram" Bridgeport J Head 48" by 9"(avoid 36" tables)
Lathe is a 1969 South Bend Heavy 10" CL187
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q282/destro937/091210_223633.jpg

Also go here and read, read, read.
Practicalmachinist.com

shipyard? what company you working for? i used to work for trident seafoods

Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Bremerton, WA. . .I was working for them down in San Diego, CA but the cost of living was WAY too high so I quit, moved to Washington and went back to school.

I finished my welding degree this past December and I should be finishing my Technical Design Degree this Fall. . .as long as I the few classes I have left are available at a time that I can take them. . .something that is a lot harder now that I've returned to the workforce.

I got to see my first CNC lathe do it's thing today. . .one of my friends works in the machine shop as a tool & die maker and he called me and said come up stairs if you've got the time. . .so I did, it was pretty cool!

yeah i tried the school and work... damn near killed me a couple times. so im at grcc getting my mechanical drafting degree

Where's GRCC?

I've only got about two (maybe 3, depending on class offerings and scheduling conflicts) quarters left to finish up my Technical Design degree (manual drafting, AutoCAD, SolidEdge, SolidWorks, etc.). . .so hopefully I won't have too much of a problem.

I was able to start and finish my Welding Degree going to school full-time using money I had saved up to go back to school.

green river community college it's in auburn up on the east hill of kent. excellent drafting program. you going to olympic?

Yeah,

I finished my welding degree this past December and should be done with my Technical Design degree this Fall Quarter.

Gonna be out of town until Monday, Later!