ever since i put the NOS system in my rig i have been thinking how much more fun i could have if i could actually shift gears. the sm420 just does not allow anything resebeling a speed shift. so i have been considering trying a auto tranny. problem is i know nothing about them. which one is most suited to my usage? th400 , th350 or a 700r4? what are the overall lenghths for each? which one will take the most angle of operation? how do autos act after sitting upside down for awhile? any thing else you can contribute to my quest will be helpfull.

go for the 400 with the 3:1 first gear. Have a good race shop build it, and explain what you will be using it for. I would do a full manual valve body, and good shift kit. That will let you control it like a manual, just with no clutch. Also, picking a torque converter is very important. That more depends on your engine and overall gearing though. From what I understand, you like to break shit, so the 400 seems like the only option to me.

P.S. I think most places call the lower geared 400 the TH475.

camo with nos?? :eek: YIKES!! :flipoff2:


Turbo 400 is what i will do in the cruiser when I get the $$$ saved for my atlas. :D

Go 727. THey work better off camber, etc and you have a large selection of aftermarket parts available.

Downside: Must be adapted to your motor (I'm assuming a Chevy since you listed 3 Chevy tranny's) and the pan is wide and sometimes causes issues with the front d-line. However, you can sell extra glitter to afford to fix these issues!:flipoff2:

Autos rock. 700r4 are expensive to get built strong I don't know much about them really. Goat1 has spent a bunch of time getting his dialed in how he wants it, I'm sure he will reply. Between the th400 and th350 from what I have seen the TH350 works better on its side and verticle, but then again this may be specific to how they are built, or maybe the huge adapter on the th400 to 203 rigs I am thinking of swallows up all the fluid when it goes verticle.

With the valve body you really want something that will stay in first when you put it in first and not shift to second on a downhill. If you go with the full manual valve body watch out for ones built for drag race they are set up so you get no compression breaking at all they just spin free like they were in neutral.

As far as making them live behind the camo curse it is all about a big cooler. I have seen a th400 trans crack the case in half, other than that every failure wheeling I have seen has been the trans burned up from heat usually started on previous trips.

It will take a while to get used to crawling the auto but once you do you will love it.

from what i understant the 727 is bulletproof. i will look into that as well.

yup i have a cheby. 4.3

anybody have a link to a faq page with overall measurments for all the autos?

Come awn guys this is camo

go big, go tuff
http://www.midwestdda.com/images/Brochure/transm1.gif
GO Allison
http://www.allisontransmission.com/product/series/1000series.jsp

MECHANICAL RATIOS (RANGE)*
First 3.10:1

Second 1.81:1

Third 1.41:1

Fourth 1.00:1

Fifth 0.71:1

Reverse -4.49:1

RATIO COVERAGE
Forward 4.37
http://www.allisontransmission.com/documents/product/publications/pubs/SA3140EN.pdf

I'd say the 700R4. Nice low gear, fairly durable after 87 (all rebuilds should be taking the updated modifcations into account)

OMG, I almost posted this as a new thread. :shaking:

Bryan

Originally posted by camo
from what i understant the 727 is bulletproof. i will look into that as well.

yup i have a cheby. 4.3

anybody have a link to a faq page with overall measurments for all the autos?

Camo, I'm running the 727 (built by Art Carr) and its been great. It still drives even on its side. What Scout Dude said about the wide pan is true. I cant run a strait shaft from the Atlas to the front dif without it hitting the pan so I went with a 2 piece front shaft to get around it. Works bitchin! If you're gonna be out at JV next week, crawl under the rig and check it out.

Originally posted by camo
from what i understant the 727 is bulletproof. i will look into that as well.

yup i have a cheby. 4.3

anybody have a link to a faq page with overall measurments for all the autos?

Looks like you can get an 727 adapter local:
Capanna Co.
P.O. Box 763 Pismo Beach CA 93448

(805) 481-7639

camo check your PM box..

Originally posted by camo
from what i understant the 727 is bulletproof. i will look into that as well.

yup i have a cheby. 4.3

anybody have a link to a faq page with overall measurments for all the autos?

http://www.novak-adapt.com

plenty of info there.

Originally posted by elf_cruiser
go for the 400 with the 3:1 first gear. Have a good race shop build it, and explain what you will be using it for. I would do a full manual valve body, and good shift kit. That will let you control it like a manual, just with no clutch. Also, picking a torque converter is very important. That more depends on your engine and overall gearing though. From what I understand, you like to break shit, so the 400 seems like the only option to me.

P.S. I think most places call the lower geared 400 the TH475.

standard ratio on a th400 is 2.48 1st. i have seen an aftermarket planitary set that offers a 2.75 tho, but never a 3:00.
the th475 was basicly a 400 with strait cut planitarys instead of helical. they also were usualy 2wd with hughe parking brakes on the output shaft. the guts are swapable into a 400 tho.. and they still had a 2.48 first. the 475 gear set is realy only needed for heavy towing/extream hp situations.. ie: 700+ft/lb aplications..

btw: case leghnth
400:24 3/8
350:21 5/8
700:23 3/8
4l80e:26

this does not include any adapter.. just face to end of case.

No true value to add here, but this got me :laughing:

Originally posted by camo
evhow do autos act after sitting upside down for awhile?

BTW, this company was listed in one of the mags recently. I guess, you take an Auto, cut off the front half of the tranny and then bolt on one of their adaptor bell housings.

http://www.auto2000.com/jw/

However, I don't see one for a 727 to Chevy...which seems odd since racers have been using the 727 for years. Anyways, might want to call them and check.

i got a th400 that'll bolt up to my 4.3.. you should find one of those and take it to a good shop..

i myself am still lost on what torque converter i should run.. if one of the flexplates i'm gettin bolts up to the factor converter i'm just gonna run it and see how i like it.. remember 400's suck up a bit of hp..

you know what would be even cooler than an auto, given the camo budget... a Sand Rail. serriously a keep the rock toy for the rocks and get a rail for the sand. There is no way you are gonna hit the 1:1 power to weight ratio in the rock crawler, but in a rail... It kind of fills the same need right?

Originally posted by Scout Dude


However, I don't see one for a 727 to Chevy...which seems odd since racers have been using the 727 for years. Anyways, might want to call them and check.

Because chevy guys have the Th350 and 400 (which are plenty strong) or the PG.
Look up parts for the PG, they make parts to put the glide behind almost any manufacturers engine.

The 400 takes more HP to turn but is stronger with the tallest first gear available stock.

The 350 can take some major abuse and is shorter and skinnier than the 400.

I've had good luck w/the 727, but they need to be cooled. You can find lots of info out there on them.

Here's a note from the binderbulletin faq of all places:

"A lower gearset is available for the 727. It changes 1st from 2.45:1 to 2.74:1, and 2nd from 1.45:1 to 1.55:1.
The gearset is about $400, and replaces one of the original planetaries. The lower gearing is not dramatically different from the original, but every little bit helps. If you can take the $400 price, I'd recommend the 727 low gearset.
One source for these lower gears is:
A & A AUTOMOTIVE & TRANSMISSION
9699 West County Line Road
Camby, Indiana 46113
(314) 831-3066
Rick Allison"

Fuck $400. I'd rather find my lower gears somewhere else, but here's more stuff for the old 727:
http://www.off-road.com/jeep/tech/convtrans/conv727.html
http://www.tciauto.com/amc_chry/amc-chry_torqueflite.htm

I think the jeep & IH 727's had different bellhousing patterns, but they're both pretty dam beefy. But after all that, I'm w/Elf Cruiser - get the 400 for your cheby motor....

Rob
(just a nother god dam newbie)

Originally posted by The Rockslut


Because chevy guys have the Th350 and 400 (which are plenty strong) or the PG.
Look up parts for the PG, they make parts to put the glide behind almost any manufacturers engine.

The 400 takes more HP to turn but is stronger with the tallest first gear available stock.

The 350 can take some major abuse and is shorter and skinnier than the 400.


Why would anyone want a 2 speed PowerSlide in a crawler?:confused: :confused:

Originally posted by The Rockslut

The 400 takes more HP to turn but is stronger with the tallest first gear available stock.


From 700R4.com (http://www.700r4.com/FAQ/ratiocmp.htm):
"I’ve heard that the first gear ratio is much lower then either the TH-350 or TH-400. Is this true, and if so, what effects will this have on my car?

The first gear ratio of a TH-700R4 is 3.06 to 1. This is 21% lower than the first gear ratio in a TH-350 ( 2.52 to 1). First gear ratio of the Th-700R4 is 23% lower than a TH-400 ( 2.48 to 1 ). "

On a related topic, how durable ARE the TH350s?

From what I've heard, the ass end of the case has a habit of braking where it attaches to the tcase adapter:eek: I just pulled an NP203 that had TH350 case fragments on it :p

Camo, WTF!? did you get some 20"s to go with your new NOS system??? bling bling!

seriously though. If you intend to keep running the Toyota cases, like you were last I heard, then the only way to get a TH400 in front of them is to get a 2WD tranny and go with a divorced set up. I don't know how long your wheelbase in your buggy is, but that is something to think about. My vote is TH350, because they can be built to hold plenty of power, they are shorter/lighter than a TH400, and they don't suck up as much power, and they have Toy case adapters for them. Just make sure you run a BIG cooler.

After having wheeled with you I say go TH350 with a flip valve shutoff on the vent tube....same shit as the gas tank but run a small accumulator in the vent line....contact Dave at DCS welding in Scottsdale or PM me and I can give you a name of an excellent near camo proof builder for these trannies and I've heard that he can put a 700 gear set into the th350 much the same that a 400 can be upgraded with 4l60 or 80 planetaries.....for the 4.3 its time to go 350 with a 800 stall and full manual body with oversprung valves that don't shift until you shift......

I went with the 400/800stall and it works great with 350hp going to it. I've never had is slip or fail at off camber situations either. I did have a tranny shop rebuild with the lower 1st gear amd manual shift valve body. Cost about $650 5-or so years ago and still works fine.

Originally posted by Oxjockey


The first gear ratio of a TH-700R4 is 3.06 to 1. This is 21% lower than the first gear ratio in a TH-350 ( 2.52 to 1). First gear ratio of the Th-700R4 is 23% lower than a TH-400 ( 2.48 to 1 ). "

Exactly what I said. The TH400 has the tallest, or numerically lowest gear ratio of the three GM trannies.

Originally posted by ForestCam



Why would anyone want a 2 speed PowerSlide in a crawler?:confused: :confused:

Scou dude was referring to chevy racing guys and why they didnt have the adapter already for GM block to 727. Not referring to using the PG in a 4x4

Don't get caught up in lowerd 1st gears. You won't want them, beleive me. Also forget anything with an overdrive, you don't need it. Keep it simple and strong.

Originally posted by ForestCam



Why would anyone want a 2 speed PowerSlide in a crawler?:confused: :confused:

If you had everything else geared down, it would probably be pretty sweet for rock racing. I think most monster trucks run power-glides.

Originally posted by The Rockslut


Exactly what I said. The TH400 has the tallest, or numerically lowest gear ratio of the three GM trannies.

I was, um, agreeing! :idea:

After I thought about it, I figured what you meant. :D

Originally posted by JR
Don't get caught up in lowerd 1st gears. You won't want them, beleive me. Also forget anything with an overdrive, you don't need it. Keep it simple and strong.

Precisely. TH350 is more than durable enough for what you have & it's more compact than the TH400. I've got a totally stock TH350 that's been behind my 340HP 408" SBC with ZERO problems for the past several years. I don't hesitate to thump it into 2nd at 6,400 R's. And I know guys running full roller BBC's on alcohol & nitrous running these as well. As for the low gears of the TH700, why would you want them if the idea was to shift gears? 1st & 2nd are too widely spaced for good acceleration. You drop from 3.06 to 1.65. Personally, I HATED these ratios in my old Z71. For acceleration, you want a close-ratio tranny. 2.5, 1.5, 1 is where you want to be. And with a 2.52, 1.52, 1.00 set of gears, the TH350 fits the bill. Nothing wrong with the TH400 at 2.48, 1.48, 1.00, but you simply don't need it or the extra bulk that comes with it.

TEX

I'm with TEX, camo needs a T350. in his rig he's pressed for length and the strength and size of a T350 will fit the bill well.

- jack

TH350

Easy to build any way you like
Best cost option
2" shorter than the 700R4
Adapters available
You don't need the overdrive
You don't need the 3.06 first with your Ultimate
Chroming the case would be cheaper

Jay

I've got an AMC TH400 that I had beefed up and swapped in a GM output shaft to run a 203 range box to a D300. Found a Diesel torque converter that fit to lower the stall spped even further.

Go Powerglide if you have low enough gearing in the T-Case. You can get a P/G with a 2.02 1st, 16.5 inch long, 60lbs lighter than a TH400 and you cant break one if it is built right. Someday Im going to do the changeover.

Ryan

if you lower the stall speed too much, doesn't that makes it a biotch to stop without shifting into neutral?

wow !! thanks guys. right now i am thinking th350.

Originally posted by Gordon
you know what would be even cooler than an auto, given the camo budget... a Sand Rail. serriously a keep the rock toy for the rocks and get a rail for the sand. There is no way you are gonna hit the 1:1 power to weight ratio in the rock crawler, but in a rail... It kind of fills the same need right?

actually i am out to prove my point with the crawler. 2 of my buddys got rid of there rock crawlers and are building 4 seat prerunner/sand rails. we go to pismo alot and there rock rigs sucked in the sand. well mine actually kicks ass in the sand and now with nos it really gets it. i just need to be able to shift. just wait until i have 4 paddle tires . :D

Lowering the stall speed does make it more difficult to stop but a good set of brakes will do it. It really helps out on down hills and keeps it from wanting to stall the engine by building some more compression braking.

Way to go Camo! Throwing a little shot in there to move it along. I've seen some guys wheel their mud trucks on the rocks and have been wondering what would happen if you had the bottle's valve open and hit the button. New version of the "Hey, watch this".

Originally posted by Calypso
Camo, WTF!? did you get some 20"s to go with your new NOS system??? bling bling!

and they have Toy case adapters for them.

gonna run 20's when i get me some 48" xlm :flipoff2:


who makes this th350 to toy adapter ?

Originally posted by camo
wow !! thanks guys. right now i am thinking th350.

Keep thinking that:D

Originally posted by camo
who makes this th350 to toy adapter ?

Advance Adapters (http://www.advanceadapters.com/aa.com/toy23tcase.html) has TH350 to toyota case adapters, either in 21- or 23- spline. last I checked, it's around $650 for an adapter......which is why I still have a 4 banger. can't believe your going auto, camo, I remember an old post where you said you didn't like how they worked in the rocks.

Originally posted by Calypso


can't believe your going auto, camo, I remember an old post where you said you didn't like how they worked in the rocks.

i can't belive it either. :D i don't really like how they work in the rocks but most guys i talk to say they get used to it and i really hate not being able to shift when i am pre running my rig or at the dunes. so in an effort to make my rig a better all around wheeler i figured i would give it a try. i figure i can always switch back if i don't like it after a few runs.

fyi ... there's an AA T350 adapter and tcase in the for sale section now for $400 ...

- jack

Originally posted by camo
who makes this th350 to toy adapter ?

AA, about $600 new, paid $200 for mine. Someone had one for $350 in the for sale section just a couple of weeks ago.

TEX

To make everything really simple I would go with the TH350. It bolts right up to your motor, its short, dependable, and easily adaptable to your toy t-cases.....

But....

Here is what I have been trying to get together.

http://www.fbperformance.com/4stbc.gif

Its an AOD 4spd with a new bellhousing to go GM. The gearing can be either...

Std Gear Ratios: 2.40/1.47/1.00/0.67
Optional Ratios: 2.84/1.56/1.00/.067

I need the overdrive for portals. But I think it would come in handy anyways for deep gearing or for a little more top speed.
Form what research I have done they make about every bullet proof.....or should I dare say Camo-proof part for these. From 300M input shafts....to kevlar bands....to deep pans.

Also one of the new developments with this transmission from Art-Carr is a new valvebody that allow you to have a regular automatic transmission...sand...hillclimbs and running from the cops around town. But when you need a manual valvebody...rocks, dragracing, whatever....you can have it with the puch of a button. I really like this idea because with the 7.56 gearing in the portals and even a 3.0 atlas I get pushed around a bit in low range. So....push the button, and I can start in second when its icy....its that stuff when water freezes....and if I need a little more wheel spin or whatever. Its just a LOT more flexable.

The tranny also has the pan centered more or less. So you can use a pass or drivers side driveshaft easy enough.

Just an idea.

ttt

Originally posted by Mieser

Also one of the new developments with this transmission from Art-Carr

Which Art Carr? The old company he sold which goes by Art Carr or the new Art Carr run by Art Carr?

www.novak-adapt.com

ALL the specs on every tranny