Toyo-Mog

[Wolfgang]

Here you can see the Mog torque tubes attached to our T-Case with 203 Low range section, TH 400 automatic and Chevy 350.
www.killeraxles.com

[coachgeo]

Wolfgang is the Tcase your using a Domestic US case. As in what trannies can it be fit to with out an adapter,. or maybe better said not fit to. If adapters needed what ones are available?

One thing I would like to see is a conversion for a mog tranny Torque tube output to a more standard Torque tube output that the overdrive companies already have fittings for.

That way I could put an overdrive on my 404.1. Gearvenders... think it is them. anyway. they make overdrive for Torque tubed vehicles just not the 404.

[Wolfgang]

If somebody like to have more info, please write a e-mail . I do not make business on the board.
Sometimes it´s hard to say where information ends and business starts.

[orangefj45]

i guess that's one way of showing the driveline! nice pic wolfi!:D

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by Wolfgang
If somebody like to have more info, please write a e-mail . I do not make business on the board.
Sometimes it´s hard to say where information ends and business starts.

Good point Wolfgang.

How common is the name Wolfgang? Only other person I know who had it was Wolfgang Omadaous (sp?) Mozart. but then I live over here and dont hear names from that side of the world daily.

[Wolfgang]

Wolfgang is a common name. Johann Wolfgang Goethe, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart and last not least Wolfgang Tibus.:rolleyes:

[cruiserrg]

Wolfgang,

Do you have any more close up or detailed picks of the transfercase setup?
Is there anyway to modify the trasfercase to allow for using it without the NP203GRB?
Lastly, what suspension considerations need to be made when using the torquetubes, or can you run a standard 3/4 link setup?
Maybe some pics of the stock MOG suspension would help me invision this.

[unissamog]

Originally posted by cruiserrg
Wolfgang,

Do you have any more close up or detailed picks of the transfercase setup?
Is there anyway to modify the trasfercase to allow for using it without the NP203GRB?
Lastly, what suspension considerations need to be made when using the torquetubes, or can you run a standard 3/4 link setup?
Maybe some pics of the stock MOG suspension would help me invision this.

That is the beauty of the torque tube design... it is the link. All you need is a panhard rod, and the torquetube. The torque tube is set up to eliminate axle wrap, and fore-aft movement...the panhard then controls the side to side movement.

As you can see the torque tube has extra supports that run from the outer portions of the axle to the tube to keep it from flexing.

[ryeguy]

Having broken NP203 cases before (NP205's too, we're talking the housings), I'd say it isn't up to the task of locating an axle in a torque tube design. I ain't saying it can't be done, just that it isn't designed for that kind of load/stress.

--Rob

[Wolfgang]

right Rob, you can not take a cast housing from the 203 or 205. We´ve built a complete new steel housing and had no problems since. It´s a lot of work to do this. This is the reason why we do not sell this housing right now, because it´s too expencive. But we are working very hard to find a cheaper way to build this with the same strenght. We are very busy, but I hope i can find the time to finish this work to the end of the year.



www.killeraxles.com

[Mieser]

How offest is that engine. It looks like you would have to run your header outside the frame no matter what.

It is an interesting concept. Roughly how much would the new t-case cost?

Does it have just one speed? or does it have low range too?

What is the wheelbase in that picture? It looks like the rear is WAY short for travel. It would seem that it would articulate well, but up and down travel might be limited.

Thanks for the info....

[Wolfgang]

It depends on the frame how you can route your exhaust. This is the Unimog frame width.
The T-case will cost about 1500$, but i am not sure yet. The T-case does have a low range (NP 203). The wheelbase on this picture is a stoch Toyota FJ40 wheelbase.
The articulation is excellent and the travel also not bad.

[ryeguy]

Hm.

I don't think it'd be wise for all frames. All load is going through the T-case. If it's a divorce mount T-case (it'd be a Ford NP203 so that was available but rare), then it would be isolated from engine torque and frame twist. But a married case (as shown in this picture) means that any engine torque and frame twist could cause the assembly to fail between the trans and T-case (most likely I'd think). Engine torque alone is what broke Tim's TH400 housing at TTC. And that T-case had a chance to flex a bit 'cause it wasn't mounted as solid as this would require. Removing frame twist (possible) would help, but the engine still has to be mounted as rigid as the T-case, then.

Don't get me wrong. Ultra cool project, one that I had toyed with and decided was too much work. And done right, I suspect it's fine. But done wrong (and I'm not talking about the steel T-case housing or any of your work but all the potential for screw-ups by the installer who doesn't understand the issues) is a recipe for broken parts.

--Rob

[Mieser]

I think its a cool project and would be very cool for some applications.....

I think with the frame, unless it was way wide, which would limit the tires from turning you would have to go outside the frame. i don't really like this, but I think with careful routing of the exhaust you could get away with it. If you look in the first picture you can see the top muffler has a hole in it I think.

You would have to have a hell-a-stout mounting for that t-case system. All the forces for and aft of the suspension are going to be moving through that t-case! But you wouldn't want to have it hard mounted either, because like rob says you might break the transmission housing.

I wonder about having only a 2:1 low range. I guess with the 7.56 gearing of the portals you would be ok? rob? There is 3.6 gears for the 203 now from WMS too. I guess you could also stack a few 203s together too right!

Wolfgang- What is the wheelbase on that rig? Close to stock?

What I do like about this system is the use of the unimog torque tube suspension. I like the idea because the driveshaft is protected, and the tube suspension seems to transfer power and traction to the wheels very well.

The price isn't bad at all....hell....what does an atlas cost...or a few pinion conversions?

I like the idea.....gears are turning....

[Wolfgang]

We use the Toyo for hard core offroading, even harder than the rock crawling stuff. The Toyo runs the stock wheelbase. We never had a problem with the drivetrain and the TC. In my opinion is there no need for a shorter overall ratio than the 2-1 reduction of the 203 low range. We run a TH 400 behind a Chevy 350 motor with 250 HP. Our Jeep runs a build TH 350 behind a 400 HP Chevy 454 so far without problems.

[ryeguy]

I run a TH400, reverse NP203 into a regular NP205. So yeah, I agree, 2:1 ratio behind a regular automatic and into 404 axles is good for reduction. I've never needed more reduction. Manual transmissions have lower 1st gears instead of the torque converter...how much is enough? I'm happy with what I've got, some guys love having 200:1.

Last I heard (could be wrong), WMS has backed off from 3.6:1 and back to about 3:1. That was to make them fit in the Ford NP203...rumors. Either way, you can get a better low range.

--Rob

[Mieser]

That is a COOL pic! I hope the water was warm!

Anyways, I think that the design has its good points. I have a few questions though Wolfgang....

-How much is the drop is in the t-case. How far from the centerline of the transmission to the centerline of the attachment point of the torque-tube? Is it possible to install this system without having your t-case, or its mounts hang below the frame of a normal jeep.

-Is that landcruiser running the stock frame?

-How much does the motor have to be moved to the passenger side from center?

-Will this bolt behind any NP203? ford or chevy or dodge?

-How hard is it to shorten the torque-tubes?

Thanks

[weps]

This Torque tube discussion has got my mind thinking too:eek:
How about adapting something like this to a 205 or Atlas(?)

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/product_view_full_img.asp?image%5Ffile=080%2D3%2Ej pg&product%5Fname=Super+Torque%3Cbr%3E+Ball+%26+Housi ng&base%5Fno=54664202&mscssid=75NMCMWXUPDN9KS2QS6X7PAENMAHDJQB (http://)

It may be easier to obtain and work with...

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by weps
This Torque tube discussion has got my mind thinking too:eek:
How about adapting something like this to a 205 or Atlas(?)

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/product_view_full_img.asp?image%5Ffile=080%2D3%2Ej pg&product%5Fname=Super+Torque%3Cbr%3E+Ball+%26+Housi ng&base%5Fno=54664202&mscssid=75NMCMWXUPDN9KS2QS6X7PAENMAHDJQB (http://)

It may be easier to obtain and work with...

ahhhh ok.. ahhhhh... sometimes in post you got to assume the reader (me) is clueless so u have to give more details so u educate us all; as in ahhhh .. what the hell is that a picture of?

[weps]

Sorry,:(
you were able to see the pic though right? That is a "universal" torque tube and mount.Widely used by sprint cars. The problem "I" have seen with using the stock 'Mog torque tube is that you just about need a mog transmission to get measurements and see how its mounting is accomplished.(then throw it away) Short of the aforementioned T-case not being strong enough info,I think this Speedway part could be easily adapted to fit the rear of an existing 205 or Atlas. Then you, the builder, could finish out your torque tube mounted axle.

Maybe this pictured mount on a midplate just aft of your Tcase??
But that is eating into wheelbase/space/length:rolleyes:

just a thought....


(feel free to flame me for the bad link, I just could'nt get it to work...)

[cruiserrg]

To make the link work, just copy the link and paste into a new browser.

HTH

[coachgeo]

Wow..... thanks cool stuff.

I'm on the other end of all this. I have a mog but would LOVEEEE to put an overdrive behind the mog tranny. One of the manufactures does make overdrives for Torque tubed trucks except not for the 404 unimog of course. I would love to adapt it to fit a mog tranny and then adapt the other end to either fit the Mog torue tube .... or modify the torque tube to fit the overdrive's torque tube output

[Mieser]

I thought of another question too...


Does this new t-case allow just 4wd? Or can you do rear wheel drive? maybe even front wheel drive?

[weps]

Coachgeo- you can always go with the "Rubber overdrive" on 53" Michelins;)

Yeah, it is a shame that Mercedes did'nt make an overdrive that bolts to the trans like the crawler box does....

This has been a good topic though:)

WEPS

[Wolfgang]

This is the proto of our conversion. 2wd rear is possible.
www.killeraxles.com

[coachgeo]

I understand the reasoning behind the tranny cage (structural upgrading to handle stresses a torque tube suspension puts on things) and in this picture, I recognize what is the Tcase with its new case housing and its converted Torque tube output.

What I dont recognize is what is the rusty housing between the Tcase and the autotranny? (or is this just part of the original T-case housing)

This style of product does offer me another option here as in for my Turbo Diesel Mog 404 I could go to an auto tranny that went with the 300turbo diesel translplanted in my Mog and a Tcase like Wolfgangs product. Eventurally an overdrive could prob. be added easier to this than the mog tranny if needed? I would loose PTO but in my case thats not really a big deal.

Does anyone know much about the trannys behind mercedes OM6717A 5cyl Turbo diesel engies? What would be the best one for this idea, how reliable, if gearing would work any better than the every gear granny gear that is in mog 404's, parts availability for these auto trannys etc,

[cruiserrg]

That would be a NP 203 Gear reduction box between the tranny and transfercase.

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by cruiserrg
That would be a NP 203 Gear reduction box between the tranny and transfercase.

thanks. that's an animal Im not familure with.

So your saying the 203 gear reduction box is a stock ford type underdrive? is it selectable like can you turn it off?

Hmmmm wonder if gear vengders or someone else makes an underdrive overdrive that would fit in this same spot. Underdrive for off road and overdrive for getting there on the Hwy.


(PS. My rig is to be more of an excursion camper)

[coachgeo]

Wolfgang,

Another area to sell your Tcase to is those that do the 404 dieselization kit. You might consider contacting Gerald that makes the kit and together ya'll could make a kit that replaces the engine and trany using your Tcase.

[cruiserrg]

Originally posted by coachgeo
thanks. that's an animal Im not familure with.

So your saying the 203 gear reduction box is a stock ford type underdrive? is it selectable like can you turn it off?

Hmmmm wonder if gear vengders or someone else makes an underdrive overdrive that would fit in this same spot. Underdrive for off road and overdrive for getting there on the Hwy.

(PS. My rig is to be more of an excursion camper)

NP203 transfercases were used in GM, Ford, and Dodge. They were a complete chain driven case with 3 major parts: the Gear Reduction Box (GRB), chain assembly for transfer to axles, and a differential because they where full time cases.

The part in the pic is the GRB and looks to be from a GM or Dodge. The box can be shifted into either a 1:1 or ~2:1 ratio. The only gear vender I know that makes gears for them is Wagoneer Machine http://www.wagonermachine.com/new_products.htm and sell a 3:1 set for more underdrive. I am not aware of an overdrive, but I bet it could be done. I would also imagine that you could make an adapter to fit an overdrive unit, simular to a KluneV but overdrive, to the MOG xfer. I am not sure though as I don't know the specs of a MOG xfer.

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by cruiserrg


NP203 transfercases were used in GM, [snip] thanks

[snip] I would also imagine that you could make an adapter to fit an overdrive unit, simular to a KluneV but overdrive, to the MOG xfer. I am not sure though as I don't know the specs of a MOG xfer.

Their is no additional Mog Tcase. The Tranny and transfercase is an all in one thing. The problem is the overdrive has to have outputs for Torque tube.

I seem to agree with you that it could be done but everyone else says no. or agree but only. if one has unlimited supplies of cash. (which I DONT)

[cruiserrg]

Originally posted by coachgeo


Their is no additional Mog Tcase. The Tranny and transfercase is an all in one thing. The problem is the overdrive has to have outputs for Torque tube.

I seem to agree with you that it could be done but everyone else says no. or agree but only. if one has unlimited supplies of cash. (which I DONT)

I hear the cash thing, this stuff gets spendy quick.

I didn't know the MOG transfer and tranny where one peice, thanks for that info. The other option would be to use a transmission with overdrive in front of this setup, say a 700R4 trans or a manual with OD.

[ryeguy]

Originally posted by cruiserrg


[...] The box can be shifted into either a 1:1 or ~2:1 ratio. The only gear vender I know that makes gears for them is Wagoneer Machine http://www.wagonermachine.com/new_products.htm and sell a 3:1 set for more underdrive. I am not aware of an overdrive, but I bet it could be done.

Direct drive (1:1) in the NP203 is achieved by moving the collar to engage the input shaft directly to its output shaft. I.e. every other gear inside there is just along for the ride when in high range. Redesigning the case to have an overdrive in place of the direct drive...you're better off just designing something from scratch.

--Rob

[Wolfgang]

On the 203 reduction box you can mount an PTO!
Its really better to take a overdrive transmission, stickshift or automatic like TH 700 or even better 4L80E.

www.killeraxles.com

[Mieser]

Alright.....I like the idea...

What does the mount for the t-case look like. In the first pic it looks like it sits well below the frame. Could this be redone to be mounted up inside the frame? How about if you where to cut out and redo the floor? If the motor is shifted 3.75" from center to the pass side it would seem that there should be enough room.

The t-case seems like it has to be mounted to the frame without much flex to deal with the torque tube suspension. So how could you go about isolating the engine and tranny from this? How do they do that on a stock unimog?

Questions Questions

[Mieser]

Ok, well I have been doing some more thinking...anyways...that is always dangerous....

So, I decided to research this a bit. I didn't find much on the mog other than this haddrawn tech picture thing....it looks like to me that the engine/tranny/tcase is joined into one unit....

So other than the fact that a small block chevy makes a ton more power....the unimog has hell-a-low gearing....so how is the mog stuff mounted to the frame? Or is it just designed to take this kind of torsional loading in the entire unit?

[Mieser]

Also...keeping with what Ryeguy said about the divorce NP203 being hard to find....what about using a toyota crawler instead of a 203? They are really strong for there size, and they have great gearing options...stock 2.28, 4:1 or 4.7:1. Ott also makes a divorce toyota kit...

http://www.ottindustries.com/toy-case.JPG

I think the problem with the divorce mounted stuff is that it ends up being very long! Unless you go with like a SM420 or something...but I like autos most of the time.

my head is starting to hurt!

[coachgeo]

Originally posted by Mieser
Alright.....I like the idea...

What does the mount for the t-case look like. In the first pic it looks like it sits well below the frame. Could this be redone to be mounted up inside the frame? How about if you where to cut out and redo the floor? If the motor is shifted 3.75" from center to the pass side it would seem that there should be enough room.

The t-case seems like it has to be mounted to the frame without much flex to deal with the torque tube suspension. So how could you go about isolating the engine and tranny from this? How do they do that on a stock unimog?

Questions Questions

Stock Unimog 404 Engine, tranny w/internal Tcase, is floating. They have a mounts that can swing some. I assume this is to allow for dissepating (sp?) the forces and to allow the for frame flexion. Lotsssss of frame flex on a 404.

Also the tranny itself uses a BEASTY solid case so that my the main reason TTube is no problem structerally.

[unissamog]

Originally posted by Mieser
Ok, well I have been doing some more thinking...anyways...that is always dangerous....

So, I decided to research this a bit. I didn't find much on the mog other than this haddrawn tech picture thing....it looks like to me that the engine/tranny/tcase is joined into one unit....

So other than the fact that a small block chevy makes a ton more power....the unimog has hell-a-low gearing....so how is the mog stuff mounted to the frame? Or is it just designed to take this kind of torsional loading in the entire unit?

The rear of the tranny-tcase (they are all one unit) is solidly attached to a MASSIVE crossmember. Then the whole unit all the way up to the fron of the engine is joined into a single unit that has a single pivot point in front of the engine in the center of a cross member. This allows the frame to flex around the engine without ripping the system apart.

[cruiserrg]

Originally posted by coachgeo
Hmmmm wonder if gear vengders or someone else makes an underdrive overdrive that would fit in this same spot. Underdrive for off road and overdrive for getting there on the Hwy.


Hey coachgeo,

I was surfing around on http://www.exaxt.ca/ and noticed an adapter running a NP203 backwards to get a .5:1 overdrive. Looks like you would use a NP205 trasfercase, but closer to what your looking for.

HTH

[Mieser]

Well I have a few ideas....

-ok, looking around I think that this system would work really well if you could eliminate the motor from twisting. Stock motor mounts allow a lot of flex. If the t-case is mounted almost solid for the torque tubes, you can't have the motor moving around trying to break the tranny in two.

So what about running a stronger motor mounts system to keep the motor from flexing. I was looking through an issue of street rodder and found a nice trim-and-weld-in crossmember that used some billet motormounts that had poly bushings. I would think that this could only help? I don't know if it will solve the problem though.

I would really like to run a 700r-4 with a new tailshaft and a factory th350/np205 adapter.

Anyone else have any ideas? I could get LOW tech and chain down one side of the motor :D Myabe some drag race style motor mounts? on the front and rear of the motor?

[coachgeo]

Wolfgang how did u mount the motor into your Toyo Mog? I assume it does not have the frame flex of a Mog so did u go Rigid mounts on the motor orrrr?

[Wolfgang]

No, we do not have the frame flex like a Mog, because we do not have the wheelbase and the weight. We took the stock Chevy rubber mounts on the stock Chevy location so far without a problem. We run this setup for over 5 years now.

www.killeraxles.com

[ryeguy]

Originally posted by Mieser
Well I have a few ideas....
would really like to run a 700r-4 with a new tailshaft and a factory th350/np205 adapter.


You don't need to put in the A/A tailshaft if you can afford another 1.5 inches in drivetrain length...

--Rob
www.exaxt.ca