Just a reminder to Tread Lightly if you hit Fordyce right now. The thaw is in full swing. Use your winch or get a tug if needed.

Water release is going up and add to that the thaw. The river crossings will be deep and fast. Use your head.

Just a reminder to Tread Lightly if you hit Fordyce right now. The thaw is in full swing. Use your winch or get a tug if needed.

Water release is going up and add to that the thaw. The river crossings will be deep and fast. Use your head.

Were heading up friday around 5-6 after work, can we reach the first crossing yet or is the snow to deep still?? Got my rig on 37s and three rigs on 44s and 40s r we going to need a snow plow haha

I went up last sunday on memorial weakend the crew from FOF cleared the way thru the snow. They did awsome job. We went in at cisco and took the new bypass ( the bypass is sweeeet) w bbqed at the first water crossing on the other side. As far as I see it fordyce is fully open. But winch or get a tug like Tinman says even thow you can make it don't create prolong damage as far as ruts ect. Well you'll see.


IF ANYONE NEEDS TRAIL RESCUE CONTACT SCOTT AT
ALL AMERICAN TOWING in AUBURN

Just to throw this out there. Without having actually run past mile 6 I would guess that there is still a bunch of snow at the committee crossing and it would be tough to get out that way. Same for Meadow. I'm sure there is lots of snow there. Any trip is likely to be an in and out the Indian Springs trailhead.

Right on ill get some pictures this weekend of the trail and trip thanks for the info going in cisco see ya out there if u can make it

We have a group going in this weekend. Plan on hitting 1st water crossing, and just seeing how it looks. I have a feeling the water is going to be high. We don't need another blue fj cruiser on the news, be careful!

299 CFS now and rising!

Thats too deep for my sami buggy! I m out for this weekend

299 CFS now and rising!

At the dam do not forget that the flow below the dam grows with every snow flake that melts


250-280 cfm is tops in late june and summer for a jeep on 36's, i value my jeep and dont want to donate anymore photographic ammunition to the greenies


I spring run off anything over 150-180 cfm at the dam and then i dont trust the numbers too much. the additional change over that measured dam number can be 100 + additional cfm in run off contribution mid and late day.


Stay out of the water crossings until things settle down we dont need ANY more problems. If you cross at over 400 cfm you are contributing to a publicity problem THAT WILL GET THIS TRAIL CLOSED




Don't be the next blue Landcruiser




-

Weekend before last at the end of the day the river was up a good foot from the morning. Tons of runoff right now:eek:

400 CFS and looks to still be rising. It could reach the projected 500 CFS at any time.

We don't recommend crossing at this level.

500?! Heck, I don't like crossing when it's over 250, my butt gets wet. :p

500?! Heck, I don't like crossing when it's over 250, my butt gets wet. :p

x2 with my toy i dont think im crossing this time, my brothers jeep is on 44s probably has the best chance of getting across but 400 plus cfs is hauling ass!

Hauling ass water for sure. It seems like the water gets faster more than deeper. When its up to your hood, and fast enough to wash your truck away.... no bueno. we are still going in and campin at the 1st crossing.

At a certain point I think you are right it stops getting deeper but man that water is MOVING at 400. Edit and just looked and its now 450

From last yr...water crossing 2 at 400cfs. I took one quick look and said no thanks.

http://fourdice4x4.com/photos/albums/FOFrecovery/P1010031.sized.jpg

Chute 100 yds above 2. Amazing

http://fourdice4x4.com/photos/albums/FOFrecovery/P1010026.sized.jpg

At a certain point I think you are right it stops getting deeper but man that water is MOVING at 400.


And COLD! :eek:

The water is pumping through fordyce. Went down to river 1 with some webuilt guys today and sure enough three smaller rigs (toys w/35's and a jeep that looked small on the other side) had gone across in the mornig and when they came back water was up over the gravle bar on the side going to WH1. The toys made it back with help and I had to leave so I didn't see if the jeep made it back across. Pretty unsettling to see one toy get sucked into the rapids. Luckly he didn't roll because he could have drowned very easily.

Its sucks seeing people in that position because I've been there. It is a firm reminder though, that people need to check flow rate's and use better judgement when attempting to cross with a heavy flow. Rigs with much larger rubber, heavy axles, well clearanced and expirienced drivers that know the lines can make it look easy, but samller lighter rigs should probably just wait till river levles go back down. I pretty sure that nobody wants to be that fj guy from last year, let alone live to see another day.

Ya that was me in the red yota. im an idiot! crossed it fine in the morning rose 1.5 ft in an hour got strandd tried to follow s big buggy across and got swepped away, thanx to alot of winching and very cool people we were able to get it out and i just got home, post pics if anybody has them!

Ya that was me in the red yota. im an idiot! crossed it fine in the morning rose 1.5 ft in an hour got strandd tried to follow s big buggy across and got swepped away, thanx to alot of winching and very cool people we were able to get it out and i just got home, post pics if anybody has them!

What happened with the little jeep, did everyone get them back across?

You guys are real lucky that there was that many hands to get you back over. It was pretty scary watching your truck get sucked down the rapids.:eek:

Thank God they didn't get hurt or drown!

Release is now fluctuating between 490 and 500 CFS. At these numbers NO ONE should attempt to cross. Even IF you have big tires, heavy axles, etc.

I have all those on my rig and a flow through tube frame and I still wouldn't even attempt it. Too many things can go wrong.

This is a good illustration about the extra danger of the river rising during the day because of the thaw as well. It's also a good case of why one should carry supplies for an overnight trip even if the intent is a day run. Spend the night and cross in the morning when the water has gone down a bit.

PLEASE DON"T CROSS THE RIVER!

those guys owe much thanks to all the people involved in recovery. Thats for sure on spending the night. Thats what me and some fof guys bret, dan and some others had to do last year. If you don't have over night gear, get a fire going and get dried out because it can get cold at night even if it's a warmer day.

The jeep made it across fine with following that huge fullsize across. mine was the only catastrophy in the water yesterday. if any one has video or pictures send them to jbergthold@hotmail.com
Thanks again to everyone that helped with recovery!

Glad everyone made it back across.

Glad you got the truck out of there. Was a bit scary there for a minute. If i ever need gas and oil up there, you owe me.

Glad you got the truck out of there. Was a bit scary there for a minute. If i ever need gas and oil up there, you owe me.

Anytime! I owe u guys alot, anytime or problems u guys get whatever ican do!!

i'll send u pics once i upload them

we are all glad everyone got in and out of the trail.. i have pictures for you too.. shoot me a P.M. if you want me to get them to ya.. i was the guy with the red exo-ed 4runner.

The release is bouncing off of 520 CFS. I had a report of a couple more rigs drown out and then recovered with multiple winches and straps. No one hurt apparently.

No idea why anyone wants to challenge the river right now.:confused:

No idea why anyone wants to challenge the river right now.:confused:

You can't fix stupid.

The release is bouncing off of 520 CFS. I had a report of a couple more rigs drown out and then recovered with multiple winches and straps. No one hurt apparently.

No idea why anyone wants to challenge the river right now.:confused:

You can't fix stupid.

What they don't realize - it that talk of drowning rigs is exactly what some folks need to pull the water quality card. While they think it's cool and courageous, it's what keeps me up at night. Fordyce won't get a water board hearing like the Rubicon did.

The moment someone gets hurt - we are toast. People need to stay out of the river when it's running fast.

It's that simple. Do it voluntarily or someone will do it for you. As usual, the 1% ers are ruining it for the rest of us.

What they don't realize - it that talk of drowning rigs is exactly what some folks need to pull the water quality card. While they think it's cool and courageous, it's what keeps me up at night. Fordyce won't get a water board hearing like the Rubicon did.

The moment someone gets hurt - we are toast. People need to stay out of the river when it's running fast.

It's that simple. Do it voluntarily or someone will do it for you. As usual, the 1% ers are ruining it for the rest of us.


I hate to say it but FOF or someone else si going to have to take charge some time soon on opening and closing or placing a warning on the trail. I dont want this trail to close and as i said in my previous post, but i'll make it more clear like Bebe said this isnt an optional repair type situation where we might get access back or have a management plan. 1 water quality control complaint and Fordyce will become the next surprise canyon. I am not an advocate for gating something but in this case without someone overseeing when access is acceptable and not we stand a real chance of getting bent over on account of some moron thinking he can cross that creek.

those of us who know better can yell till we are blue in the face the only thing that keeps the 1%rs off the trail is a gate or chain and even then they'll pull it out or we face it getting a gate without any control over it's opening. Maybe a giant sign that says trail closed at first WC due to high water until further notice OR something the FS can flip over or PGE can activate when CFMs exceed x cfm at the dam. OR a sign where the daily CFM can be posted and information about how deep X and Y crossings can be at certain CFM levels. maybe posts at the edge for depth or on the sign put that WC1 at 300 cfm is 4-5'+ deep and in spring time during snow melt depths can be more. i don't like any idea of altering the trail one bit but its going to come down to we do something to keep these idiots out of the water or we write the trail off. we are about to come upon the cross roads and in someways we are there. addressing the mud hole was one part now managing the trail and keeping MORONS out of the water until it gets below a certain threshold is the next issue we are going to face.

We can choose to address it before it becomes the red card issue or we can take the normal, talk, wait and see approach which will give us the bassi falls / surprise canyon option. It sounds drastic but what we experienced on Rubicon last year was beyond real and Fordyce is far more susceptible. Continuing to tell the in experienced not to do something has had little effect. We need something that either makes it clear or gives us something to lean on it the worst case does happen. the challenge is tempting and draws us all there. i'll admit ive crossed that creek when i shouldn't have but that was then this is today.

Getting a sign or signs up and making people aware of the risks will help alot and I'll provide the materials for signs 3 or 4 sheets or whatever i can of white 4x8 MDO plywood for a signs, bolts and some pressure treated 4x4 posts right now before we re-write history. That ought to get us started if FOF and TNF opt to go that route.

The potential loss of this trail haunts me always too. especially in spring

i hate to say it but fof or someone else si going to have to take charge some time soon on opening and closing the trail. I dont want this trail to close and as i said in my previous post, but i'll make it more clear like bebe said this isnt an optional repair type situation where we might get access back or have a management plan. 1 water quality control complaint and fordyce will become the next surprise canyon. i am not an advocate for gating something but in this case without someone overseeing when access is acceptable and not we stand a real chance of getting bent over on account of some moron thinking he can cross that creek.

The potential loss of this trail haunts me always too. Especially in spring

x 2

All of these points are good but it's a two edge sword. How do you keep people out of the water without closing the trail? Our prime goal is to keep the trail open. Whatever good that is done by closures the end result is that the trail is closed.

The FOF wants to work to keep the trail open as much as possible. When winter wheeling prohibitions go into effect at least we can say we fought it and may have gotten some of the trail to use during the winter closure months.

Another thing to consider is that the water release and river level varies radically from day to day and sometimes hour to hour. I don't believe there is a way to react fast enough to institute closures fast enough to do any good. The only other alternative would be seasonal closures by calendar date. Not something we want in the least.

Education is the best starting point. Get information out to wheelers about the dangers of crossing the river, both physical and environmental. Some sort of unobtrusive signage at WC#1 and the CC warning of the dangers. Perhaps even volunteers stationed at those two crossings warning off people trying to cross at high flows. The Con has volunteers doing counts and manning the Kiosk and while logistically much more complicated on the Fordyce at the water crossings some presence is still possible.

We do not want to simply close the trail or even make the suggestion of doing so yet (or ever.)

I have a meeting with TNF early next week to discuss several topics concerning the trail and I'll put this on the agenda.

Thank God they didn't get hurt or drown!


PLEASE DON"T CROSS THE RIVER!

x2

[QUOTE=Tinman;11532015]
Education is the best starting point. Get information out to wheelers about the dangers of crossing the river, both physical and environmental. Some sort of unobtrusive signage at WC#1 and the CC warning of the dangers.[QUOTE=Tinman;11532015]

Good ideas Tinman!
I REALLY like the idea of signage especially @ WC#1. This crossing is easy to get too from I80 & is the first major possible gotcha. It also can be very deceiving on depth/ flow. Maybe additional signage at trail heads about deep water crossing(s) ahead? Signage should be up high & mounted higher than a red neck ladder.

Toyrocs

I know its a 2 edged sword, its painful no mater what we do but if we are able to devise something other than seasonal closures and gates and chains we might be able to head off the worst case scenario, thats my only reason for going off there.

Education is good but it will only take 1, 1 moron who doesnt know how to use the internet, 1 moron who thinks his balls are big enough not to shrink in ice cold water, I nimrod who doesnt realize the consequences of his actions will raise public awareness of this trail to such a level that the greenies will have a hay day.
i am only venting because i know those in the know like Brett are reading this and I truly value this trail and don't want to see it go the way of all the trails i used to use in Montana went. We fought and lost up there but here we have a chance to pre-empt the demise of our beloved trails but only if we stay 1 step ahead in management.

Good luck with TNF, appreciate all you do

Dusty

Signs may be a good idea. It takes a pretty adept internet user to figure out:

A) The fact that Fordyce flows change
B) Where to find the data on them changing
C) What CFS flow is uncrossable

Average Joe, non-PBB user may not have that information.

I try to stay off Fordyce when the flows are predicted to be above 200, as I do not want to be stuck there and not make it to work on Monday.

Creating a physical barrier is not the way to accomplish this in my view. Clear signs (with very evident warnings about trying Committee above 250 CFS) and perhaps people manning key areas on high traffic weekends is the way to go.

This year will be the first year that I will be able to do the trail with my rig, but just a suggestion idk if it is plausible.... What about a single lane bridge that will eliminate the water quality issue. :confused:

This has kind of been brought up and I think the concensus is that we don't want bridges on Fordyce. More and easier access is not neccessarily best for the trail. This is not a case of the crossings being impossible without a bridge as the case is with say the Rubicon heading into the Springs.

Who knows, someday it may come to that because of water quality concerns but for now we'll push education and common sense.

Plus there would need to be FOUR bridges, not just one. And building any of them would be a major undertaking that would probably change/destroy the trail getting equipment and materials in there because of the massive bridges we'd have to build (like the new ones on the Rubicon coming soon).

and dont forget that they would have to be raised bridges....dont want to kill a kayaker

and dont forget that they would have to be raised bridges....dont want to kill a kayaker

No ?

I know its a 2 edged sword, its painful no mater what we do but if we are able to devise something other than seasonal closures and gates and chains we might be able to head off the worst case scenario, thats my only reason for going off there.

Education is good but it will only take 1, 1 moron who doesnt know how to use the internet, 1 moron who thinks his balls are big enough not to shrink in ice cold water, I nimrod who doesnt realize the consequences of his actions will raise public awareness of this trail to such a level that the greenies will have a hay day.
i am only venting because i know those in the know like Brett are reading this and I truly value this trail and don't want to see it go the way of all the trails i used to use in Montana went. We fought and lost up there but here we have a chance to pre-empt the demise of our beloved trails but only if we stay 1 step ahead in management.

Good luck with TNF, appreciate all you do

Dusty

i sure hope the education you want to provide is not delivered a demeaning way, like calling people morons that dont use the internet. id like to say that a large percentage of people using the fordyce trail do not look it up on the internet. why should they have to? if that is actually what youre implying they "should" be doing. thank you for telling the sierra club members reading this board that they should file a water quality complaint for fordyce. :shaking:

your good intentions can also do a lot of harm, and cause a lot of people to disregard any "education" you have to share.

I'm pretty sure this is beyond the scope of fof's budget but it's a prove idea that works. At my job we build bridges of site and have them air lifted via helicopter to there destination... Anyone have a heli? Just my two cents. I fit the bill of the 1% and some of my peers are lame enough to do stupid things like float there junk across the rc's, I will do my part to spread the word of "think before you wheel" as fordyce is my trail also and I have spent my time on a few fof work weekends and well I just bought my first rig and what to use it for many years to come!

A gate would suck for responsible users. Our group went in with plans of camping at the first crossing. We all knew better than going in the creek. The sign idea should be step one. Maybe a sign sorta like the fire hazard signs, where you can change the danger level posted depending on flow rates. At least then people couldn't claim they didn't know any better, then you could call them morons and not feel bad.

i sure hope the education you want to provide is not delivered a demeaning way, like calling people morons that dont use the internet. id like to say that a large percentage of people using the fordyce trail do not look it up on the internet. why should they have to? if that is actually what youre implying they "should" be doing. thank you for telling the sierra club members reading this board that they should file a water quality complaint for fordyce. :shaking:

your good intentions can also do a lot of harm, and cause a lot of people to disregard any "education" you have to share.


A gate or chain is the last thing i want i through that out there to make the point that the idiocy has to stop and we need to figure out a way to manage this.

They (the greenies) could have gotten that info off the Sac news last year and they did there were tons of threads flying around on the anti access pages last year stating exactly this . I am not stating anything that hasn't been said 1000 time before. This isnt a new comment. It's a FACT, its a threat and Everyone knows it and has talked about it including the greenies already they had full discussions about it last year at this time because of an individual who made a very bad decision. My point above was that we need to think proactively to avoid these situations too many members here are already posting information i would rather see less detailed.

I will call anyone who crosses white water in a vehicle during spring run off at 400 cfm+ and gets washed down stream a MORON because at this point in things they are and they are threatening the existence of the trail for their own selfish fulfillment. They have multiple resources and opportunities, they can even visually observe the threats and risks involved with their decision when they get to the waters edge. Are you proposing the guy who travels down the highway in the rain at 100 mph and then goes around the 45 mph corner and causes a wreck needs more education? Needs further excuses for his actions. Or how about the fools who used to go up to bassi falls and leave litter because they weren't educated enough to pack it out. They never thought that Sierra Pacific would close the trail. You dont have to look it up on the internet to know that when water is coming over your fenders your air intake is probably going to get submerged.:shaking: or your rig is about to start floating down stream and when that happens and there is going to be a price to pay. Education is warning people of the risks and then Informing them sternly of the potential consequences, but when people actually dive/drive into freezing cold snow melt water that they don't know how deep it is and is rushing by and expect nothing to happen and i am there I will and have called them morons and will continue to its part of the educational process peer pressure.



Come up with a better argument if you want to correct, or reprimand me for taking a hard line, otherwise my point has been made and stands, i am not offering anything new nor offering much for ammo unlike other posts. you have a problem with it offer some solutions and suggestions. defending bad decisions and then trying to say that my comment about RWQC is being posted on PBB for the first time is not even factual.

Posting pictures is our biggest enemy, hence why so many things have changed on this BB since 2003 and before.

You are right a large percentage of people using the trail do not check so how do we address this before another MORON swamps a blue landcruiser and ends up on the 5pm news actually giving the greenies another reason to get all riled up. Peoples lack of common sense is what we are combating here, education only goes so far sometimes even the flashing railroad crossing gaurds dont work.

We've got bigger problems than just the sierra club if it happens again and this page wont be the source it will be the 5pm news again.


signs posted with warning and actual information for that day is probably the best bet and something that PG&E would need to be in on. Putting clear warnings with information about the limitations to crossing at certain times.

I hope that through this thread and some of these postings we all come together with some ideas that will help create a management system for this. I dont want to see anyone get hurt or worse, i love the thrill and i have crossed thsi creek too many times in too deep of water but today is a new day and one false move will cost us all. Tough love is where i am at I have no more patience for excuses. 400+ cfm is beyond stupidity and if the worst case does happen we'll all stand back and go wish i'd delivered the message a little more sternly.

A gate would suck for responsible users. Our group went in with plans of camping at the first crossing. We all knew better than going in the creek. The sign idea should be step one. Maybe a sign sorta like the fire hazard signs, where you can change the danger level posted depending on flow rates. At least then people couldn't claim they didn't know any better, then you could call them morons and not feel bad.

Your right, it won't stop me from calling them MORONS, now or ever. Bretts in the lead with the FS and PG&E hopefully this thread helps egg on some progressive ideas that are not costly or elaborate and help improve the availability of information to the general public and help prevent future issues. But in the mean while I am not going to be Politically correct on this point and not call bad decission makers something other than they are. I am as guilty as the next guy but I know times have changed.


I'll provide a white 4x8 MDO sheet of plywood for a sign, bolts and some posts right now before we re-write history. And my neighbor does vynal work probably wouldn't take much to throw something together.


might get chopped down by one of those MORONS who doesn't like to read warning signs and still wants to cross the river at high tide, sometimes you just have to let the lemmings jump into the ocean, i just hope in this case (for our Sake) their rig doesn't follow.

No need for gates, bridges or any other crazy ideas. Just some signage would probably suffice. You do know than non 4x4 people read these forums and we really dont need to give them any ammo like we are in this thread.

I think that signs with a warning about the dangers of swift water should be sufficient. I would hate to see bridges, as the water crossings were part of the draw of this trail to me. Granted I was scared to death of them and went when the flow was posted at about 75cfs.

Does anyone have pics of crossing 1 or commitie at 500+ this year. They dont have to have vehicles in them, I would just like to see how it looks at that flow.

A gate or chain is the last thing i want i through that out there to make the point that the idiocy has to stop and we need to figure out a way to manage this.

They (the greenies) could have gotten that info off the Sac news last year and they did there were tons of threads flying around on the anti access pages last year stating exactly this . I am not stating anything that hasn't been said 1000 time before. This isnt a new comment. It's a FACT, its a threat and Everyone knows it and has talked about it including the greenies already they had full discussions about it last year at this time because of an individual who made a very bad decision. My point above was that we need to think proactively to avoid these situations too many members here are already posting information i would rather see less detailed.

I will call anyone who crosses white water in a vehicle during spring run off at 400 cfm+ and gets washed down stream a MORON because at this point in things they are and they are threatening the existence of the trail for their own selfish fulfillment. They have multiple resources and opportunities, they can even visually observe the threats and risks involved with their decision when they get to the waters edge. Are you proposing the guy who travels down the highway in the rain at 100 mph and then goes around the 45 mph corner and causes a wreck needs more education? Needs further excuses for his actions. Or how about the fools who used to go up to bassi falls and leave litter because they weren't educated enough to pack it out. They never thought that Sierra Pacific would close the trail. You dont have to look it up on the internet to know that when water is coming over your fenders your air intake is probably going to get submerged.:shaking: or your rig is about to start floating down stream and when that happens and there is going to be a price to pay. Education is warning people of the risks and then Informing them sternly of the potential consequences, but when people actually dive/drive into freezing cold snow melt water that they don't know how deep it is and is rushing by and expect nothing to happen and i am there I will and have called them morons and will continue to its part of the educational process peer pressure.



Come up with a better argument if you want to correct, or reprimand me for taking a hard line, otherwise my point has been made and stands, i am not offering anything new nor offering much for ammo unlike other posts. you have a problem with it offer some solutions and suggestions. defending bad decisions and then trying to say that my comment about RWQC is being posted on PBB for the first time is not even factual.

Posting pictures is our biggest enemy, hence why so many things have changed on this BB since 2003 and before.

You are right a large percentage of people using the trail do not check so how do we address this before another MORON swamps a blue landcruiser and ends up on the 5pm news actually giving the greenies another reason to get all riled up. Peoples lack of common sense is what we are combating here, education only goes so far sometimes even the flashing railroad crossing gaurds dont work.

We've got bigger problems than just the sierra club if it happens again and this page wont be the source it will be the 5pm news again.


signs posted with warning and actual information for that day is probably the best bet and something that PG&E would need to be in on. Putting clear warnings with information about the limitations to crossing at certain times.

I hope that through this thread and some of these postings we all come together with some ideas that will help create a management system for this. I dont want to see anyone get hurt or worse, i love the thrill and i have crossed thsi creek too many times in too deep of water but today is a new day and one false move will cost us all. Tough love is where i am at I have no more patience for excuses. 400+ cfm is beyond stupidity and if the worst case does happen we'll all stand back and go wish i'd delivered the message a little more sternly.



Your right, it won't stop me from calling them MORONS, now or ever. Bretts in the lead with the FS and PG&E hopefully this thread helps egg on some progressive ideas that are not costly or elaborate and help improve the availability of information to the general public and help prevent future issues. But in the mean while I am not going to be Politically correct on this point and not call bad decission makers something other than they are. I am as guilty as the next guy but I know times have changed.


I'll provide a white 4x8 MDO sheet of plywood for a sign, bolts and some posts right now before we re-write history. And my neighbor does vynal work probably wouldn't take much to throw something together.


might get chopped down by one of those MORONS who doesn't like to read warning signs and still wants to cross the river at high tide, sometimes you just have to let the lemmings jump into the ocean, i just hope in this case (for our Sake) their rig doesn't follow.

i am in no way shape or form trying to "argue" with you, i also am not implying that i have a "better argument" for you. i was simply informing you that the way your post comes off makes me(and im sure others) not want to listen to anything you have to say, lowering your self to name calling is very immature, especially when discussing such serious issues.

my mom always used to ask me "if your friend jumps off a bridge are you going to too", reminding the greenies what they "need" to do just because other people do/have in the past is not a good reason for you to.

i think simple effective signs at WC1 and CC are a good start.

how about a pole out a bit in the water where vehicles dont drive that has CFS markings on it that could determine what the current flow is even with run-off and a nearby sign would have a simple guide warning users about certain flow levels.

i think simple effective signs at WC1 and CC are a good start.

how about a pole out a bit in the water where vehicles dont drive that has CFS markings on it that could determine what the current flow is even with run-off and a nearby sign would have a simple guide warning users about certain flow levels.

That is the best idea I have read so far. As a long time kayaker I find it hard for people to judge water flow. A good gauge at W1 and CC would be great.

x3 I agree on the pole. Especially because there is no way PG&E's release info can tell you how much water is flowing in the creek well downstream of the dam during the runoff and at different times of the day.

i think simple effective signs at WC1 and CC are a good start.

how about a pole out a bit in the water where vehicles dont drive that has CFS markings on it that could determine what the current flow is even with run-off and a nearby sign would have a simple guide warning users about certain flow levels.

You know that is a great idea. I don't know if we could actually get permission to do it but the idea of an indicator that a trail user could use as a gauge is inspiring.

I'll put it on the agenda for my meeting with the TNF next week.

YAY Tunaman!!:D Great idea.

I'm for the pole with a depth gage. The depth, even something mesured in ft. instead of cfs would work. If someone rolled up on the trail to see a marker that measured upwards of 4-6 six foot of depth on it, there might be more re-thinking of crossing. Especialy when there is a noticably higher flow.

(edit) When installing it would be easy to measure up from the river bottom.

I'm for the pole with a depth gage. The depth, even something mesured in ft. instead of cfs would work. If someone rolled up on the trail to see a marker that measured upwards of 4-6 six foot of depth on it, there might be more re-thinking of crossing. Especialy when there is a noticably higher flow.

(edit) When installing it would be easy to measure up from the river bottom.

FWIW. The actual water depth would vary in certain locations, as the bottom rocks shift even though the water at bank level remains the same.

Toyrocs

I'm for the pole with a depth gage. The depth, even something mesured in ft. instead of cfs would work. If someone rolled up on the trail to see a marker that measured upwards of 4-6 six foot of depth on it, there might be more re-thinking of crossing. Especialy when there is a noticably higher flow.

(edit) When installing it would be easy to measure up from the river bottom.

I think the gauge should be measured in CFS not depth. For years everyone has been using volume to measure when they can cross, why change it.. Besides its not really the depth as much as volume of flow that causes the problems.

I am struggling to see how a stick in the water is going to measure cfs. At a certain point the river gets wider & faster without getting deeper....

Not arguing it isnt a good idea, just not sure how it works in real life :confused:

I am struggling to see how a stick in the water is going to measure cfs. At a certain point the river gets wider & faster without getting deeper....

Not arguing it isnt a good idea, just not sure how it works in real life :confused:

Non- linear scale.

Toyrocs

If something like this happened I would just put numbers on the pole. People could cross at say "5" on the pole and know it went up so high on their rig. That way no matter what the release was it would measure depth at the crossing. It wouldn't take into account new holes but then neither does CFS. There would be a leaning curve until people got to know exactly what the numbers represented. Higher the number the deeper the water. Don't see the pole? Uh, don't cross for sure!

yeah, with the bottom shifting from year to year it would not tell you if there was a new 3ft. deeper hole right past the measuring device, but it would give a general depth at least as a guid line of sorts.

When measuring cfs who is going to walk out to the pole to mark, lets just say the five hundred mark or the four or so on. How would you be able to get a completley acurate reading any way with run of fluctuating the river by the hour in the spring anyway. Like every one seems to say dream flows is never truly correct unless it the middle of summer and no run off. Even then it could be 50-100 cfs higher or lower.

i guess we cant make it perfectly accurate but any kind of gauge would be a start in the right direction. maybe we can put a windsock in the water to measure speed:grinpimp:

Getting out and walking the crossing gives you an idea about both flow and depth. My rule of thumb: if my nuts get wet I dont cross:D

A pole would be useful to folks who have been there. It would be a handy benchmark.

I am struggling to see how a stick in the water is going to measure cfs. At a certain point the river gets wider & faster without getting deeper....



the farther up the pole the closer together the marks/lines that represent depth/cfs can be, have them far apart at the bottom of the pole and close together at the top.

If something like this happened I would just put numbers on the pole. People could cross at say "5" on the pole and know it went up so high on their rig. That way no matter what the release was it would measure depth at the crossing. It wouldn't take into account new holes but then neither does CFS. There would be a leaning curve until people got to know exactly what the numbers represented. Higher the number the deeper the water. Don't see the pole? Uh, don't cross for sure!

Unfortunately that wont fix stupid! We can do anything and everything to try and help folks out, but at the end of the day it comes down to common sense and we know that theres always going to be a few out there that dont have it and mess it up for the rest.

Depth can be pretty easily indicated with a pole but you can tell quite a bit about flow, too. No-wake, riffles, wake, rooster-tail.... etc.

Randii

Getting out and walking the crossing gives you an idea about both flow and depth. My rule of thumb: if my nuts get wet I dont cross:D

A pole would be useful to folks who have been there. It would be a handy benchmark.

At the flow rate i saw last weekend, this method would definately keep rigs out of the water. But everyone that tested with this method would be downstream stuck under a log dead. it was flowing fast enough that nut deep water would wash you away.

At the flow rate i saw last weekend, this method would definately keep rigs out of the water. But everyone that tested with this method would be downstream stuck under a log dead. it was flowing fast enough that nut deep water would wash you away.

If the water was flowing fast enough to wash a person away when they walked it they should not cross in their rig. It is all about common sense (or uncommon:confused:)
I would rather read about someone going for a swim 'cause they tried to walk across first rather than see news footage of a rig that had been washed down the rapids because they did not understand the conditions of the crossing & "went for it"

[/QUOTE]"I would rather read about someone going for a swim 'cause they tried to walk across first rather than see news footage of a rig that had been washed down the rapids because they did not understand the conditions of the crossing & "went for it"[/QUOTE]

Like bebe said it's only going to take one rig getting washed away down the creek to get the water quality card pulled. Then were all screwed. Measuring device great idea as a guidline, but common sense is up to the indivdual person(s) that tempt that fate when there thinking about crossing in bad conditions.

Funny, I've been out of town for a week & was thinking about this thread & was going to suggest a pole with CFM markings (seriously). Kinda like you see in lakes near damns.

Signs on either side with suggestions of what CFM means, and what levels are advisable...

Many area creeks/streams and rivers have gauging stations, they are installed and monitored by a number of agencies, they are set up to measure depth and flow (CFS), and many can be accessed through the internet most have the days historical data along with real time info. Not sure what it would take, or if we would be opening a can of corn, but we use that type of info quite often in the bay area.


But as it's often said CAN'T FIX STUPID To bad they can't see the BIG PICTURE.

I am struggling to see how a stick in the water is going to measure cfs. At a certain point the river gets wider & faster without getting deeper....

Not arguing it isnt a good idea, just not sure how it works in real life :confused:

Over the entire course of a river CFS is constant(with the exception of water being addded at certain points from runoff, see p 2). Depth, velocity and width change, but CFS stays the same. e.g.- When the river is flowing 500 cfs for a given run where there is no additional runoff added, be it 10 feet or ten miles, it will be flowing at 500 CFS at any point in the run. Wherever the river narrows, velocity and depth will increase as the same amount of water is moving through a smaller spot, but the flow will always be 500 CFS. The water does not dissappear or evaporate. The reverse is wherever the river widens, depth and velocity decrease as the same amount of water is spread out over a larger area.

So a stick in the water can be used to measure CFS at a specific spot because the variables are known. The grade and width of the river at that point will be known, and they are constant at that spot. That leaves the depth as the variable. The deeper the water is at that given spot, the greater the volume flowing past it is.

The greatest danger is really the volume(CFS), because you can stand no problem in 2" of water moving 30 mph, but no way can you stay standing in 4 feet of water moving 5 mph. Maybe exaggerating a bit there. I'll try to dig up my swift water rescue course material to give a better explanation, and more accurate numbers.

Good post, Mr. Burglar! :p My fast-water rescue training is far behind me...

I think some sort of removable/maintainable reference pole with green yellow red would get users most of the way there (green at the bottom, yellow towards the middle, and red at the top, with a sign up top explaining that if you can see green, you're likely save BUT CROSS AT YOUR OWN RISK, if you can see yellow the crossing is risky BCAYOR, or if you can only see red crossing is NOT ADVISED. Posting a sign *IN* the water-course may be damn complicated, as you may have to deal with the Department of Fish and Game, but I can't imagine a more effective educator.

That said, a way to index the flows at the dam to the flows at the metering poles would help people make sense of information they saw online -- especially if you posted a note about the variance from run-off, unexpected changes, etc. (ass-covering will be key).

Narrow crossings with high banks can be especially ugly, since it seems like they rise to only a certain point and then go faster with less rise... they can take the unprepared by surprise (BTDT). Now-a-days, I toss a twig in upstream of crossings and eyeball the water's speed, since depth can be deceptive.

Randii

Beyond brainstorming, I fully support Friends of Fordyce in this.

Bret, if you need help writing a grant for this for next year, you've got my number. Alternately, if you want to do a fund-raiser at a couple large events in the Sierra this summer with these water metering posts in mind, I'll help with that -- seems like a portable post and sign setup could be taken to a few big events to educate AND raise some bucks.

Beyond that, my money is where my mouth is -- when you've got a kitty for signs, metering poles, and/or other water-crossing solutions, I have a Ben-bill earmarked for this. :p

Randii (build signs, not bridges)

We should drop the talk about bridges. This will in no way help the trail.

I think signs and some sort of marker in the water would be a great idea. Simple, cheap and effective. Bret I like the three color idea we can also put numbers on it so if you see it's at yellow 6 and you have crossed it before you should be good but still use caution. Picture below :grinpimp:

People argue that most people are not on the internet to see the flows. This would allow everyone to have an idea when they get to the crossings.

No bridges and we need to quit talking about all this on a public msg board as the haters who read this can take all of this talk and blow it out of proportion. Lets let this drop already.

I tend to agree with SV. We don't need bridges. We need to accept the river for what it is and learn to be intelligent about crossing it. It's also a good idea to talk about this elsewhere. The FOF is planning some public meetings. We can talk about it there and bring our conclusions back to the TNF.

I like the sign idea. Let's make sure to design them right as they could errode away with fast moving water, freezing in winter and other environmental concerns. I would hate to see one of these floating downstream.

Also at the beginning of the trail and/or at the water crossing post some minimum tire size/ground clearance guidelines to help people judge.

How about a flexable marked (painted ?) pole imbeded in a concrete base. Position/ drop the concrete base/ pole in the middle of the river. This will show the approximate water depth/ flows.

Design / make the pole with a heavy spring at the base. The pole can now deflect if hit by a floating log without damage; for example during spring run-off . This would be similar in design to a spring base CB attenna-- just using a much larger spring.

I have used Honda Civic "car" front springs with poles mounted on top that are damage resistant. Use a slip base design with a cross- bolts, so all parts can be easily replaced in the field or even under water if need be.

If the water depth makings need to be changed or pole replaced; "dive" on the base & swap in a new pole or spring as requried.

Toyrocs

I don't think we need a pole in the water. If anything, just a small sign with a warning/caution on it. I am against anything, even a sign. But if that is what it will take to get people to learn then so be it.

Who is going to let you stick a pole in the water?:shaking: